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So, about the Wii U 50hz VC...

M

M3d10n

Member
honeymustardn said:
I don't think it's the ROMs that specify whether it's 50 or 60Hz, as with the SNES and Megadrive, it's a chip inside the console that dictates the refresh rate (you can mod the console by applying a different voltage to a certain pin and it will always display at 60Hz). Because of this, I'm pretty sure it's the emulator that comes with each game that will specify the refresh rate.
Click to expand...

That will make the game run faster, including music and stuff. Granted, many PAL games simply were the NTSC versionrunning 17% slower but some were reprogrammed to work at 50Hz.
 
H

honeymustardn

Member
M3d10n said:
That will make the game run faster, including music and stuff. Granted, many PAL games simply were the NTSC versionrunning 17% slower but some were reprogrammed to work at 50Hz.
Click to expand...

Hmm, well I'm just speaking from experience. I modded both my SNES and Megadrive (before switching to Japanese systems), and never encountered any games that were re-programmed for 50Hz. For those specific cases (I'd be interested to know which they are), surely they can just supply the NTSC ROM.

edit: and the music isn't affected at all - the voltage that is altered is only on the graphics chip. Here's an example of the mod: http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/snes-switches-1.htm
 
D

DeFiBkIlLeR

Banned
Goldmund said:
I signed the petition as well. -- Is this a licensing issue?
Click to expand...

No, it's a Nintendo 'doesn't give a shit about PAL land' issue.

They never have and never will...if it wasn't for the advent of multi-standard HD screens, PAL land would still be getting shafted with releases today.

In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone at Nintendo HQ is aware there's an issue.
 
G

Goldmund

Member
DeFiBkIlLeR said:
No, it's a Nintendo 'doesn't give a shit about PAL land' issue.

They never have and never will...if it wasn't for the advent of multi-standard HD screens, PAL land would still be getting shafted with releases today.

In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone at Nintendo HQ is aware there's an issue.
Click to expand...
It seemed to me that Nintendo's subsidiaries have gained a little too much autonomy over the years (although NoE is still headed by Shibata), an autonomy that's emphasized by rather doing what's wrong and theirs than doing what's right and shared.
 
Arren

Arren

Member
Gustav said:
Sorry for being dumb, but doesn't that mean the games run as we European experienced them 20+ years ago?
Click to expand...

Yes, one could argue that they're being faithful to how PAL users played in the past, but the point is: this was already an awful compromise back then and it still is.

I don't think one can make any argument in favor of the supposed integrity and originality of these 50hz conversions. They were a result of archaic video format differences in the first place, as already explained in this very thread, and surely they don't run as the authors and developers intended their games to do.
 
G

Gustav

Banned
Arren said:
Yes, one could argue that they're being faithful to how PAL users played in the past, but the point is: this was already an awful compromise back then and it still is.

I don't think one can make any speculation about the supposed integrity and originality of these 50hz conversions. They were a result of TV format differences in the first place, as already explained in this very thread, and surely they don't play as their authors and developers intended them to.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm okay with 50Hz VC then.
 
K

Kron

Banned
Thanks for being part of the problem and setting the lowest standards possible for the rest of us.

For an analogy I guess you'd be ok buying a new car in 2013 and letting the dealership put massive dents in all of the body panels because its what your car was like in 1985.

EUR_euro_down_the_street-drain.jpg
 
M

M3d10n

Member
honeymustardn said:
Hmm, well I'm just speaking from experience. I modded both my SNES and Megadrive (before switching to Japanese systems), and never encountered any games that were re-programmed for 50Hz. For those specific cases (I'd be interested to know which they are), surely they can just supply the NTSC ROM.

edit: and the music isn't affected at all - the voltage that is altered is only on the graphics chip. Here's an example of the mod: http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/snes-switches-1.htm
Click to expand...
The music will change, unless e game is designed yo support both 50hz and 60hz. The vast majority of games from that era were not designed with variable framerate in minde and changing from 50fps to 60fps will change their speed, period.

If only the "graphics" speed up while the music doesn't, then cutscenes would go out of sync, for example.
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
Palette Swap said:
Again, I'd swear every TV sold in my part of Europe supported 60hz displays. Most didn't support NTSC which meant you had to be careful if you wanted to output import stuff (games or videos) over SVideo or composite. I remember being in the market for a TV in 94 or 95 and every TV supported 60 but very few supported NTSC and that usually came at a premium.

The NTSC color-coding part was mostly a non issue though because most devices could output RGB over SCART which totally bypassed any color coding format questions. I mostly remember people who thought they were outputting RGB over scart but were really outputting composite (usually because they'd been sold a composite cable) which resulted in a black and white picture.

Anyway, it seems really fair to assume that in 2013, every display in PAL land can take 60hz. Nintendo actually made that assumption years ago when they released Metroid Prime 2, which didn't support 50hz.
Click to expand...

Yeah, in the PS1 era days, it would be a strange situation to find yourself with a TV that didn't support 60hz, anything different would be an anomaly, certainly I never felt compelled to check when I bought a new TV, it was just the norm to have 60hz support, particularly during the PS1 era. The only quirk was that you'd have one main scart channel and that would be the one that would support NTSC, and you'd have to hook it up with an RGB scart cable; anything else and it would output the picture in black and white, if memory serves me correctly.

The argument that in keeping the PAL 50hz originals, that it would be an authentic experience, doesn't hold water because it's largely an inferior experience, it's just that back then we were ill-informed and didn't know any better, and those that did know better, it was basically tough luck unless you decided to import or mod your console; something of a rarity in the Megadrive/SNES days, but less of a problem in the PS1/2 era when modding was particularly widespread in pockets of enthusiast communities. It's 2012 and the consumer is much better informed and we should, at the very least, have the option to play either version of the game. Most of the time it requires a simple patch for the PAL rom, I know that when I had my PAL version of Final Fantasy VII, I remember using a Gameshark code to play it in NTSC and it worked without any glitches.
 
M

mclem

Member
PedroPanache said:
The argument that in keeping the PAL 50hz originals, that it would be an authentic experience, doesn't hold water because it's largely an inferior experience,
Click to expand...

"Hey fans, remember when we treated you like shit? Wanna relive that memory?"

Y'know, Nintendo, it's remarkable, but it turns out I *don't*. Who knew?
 
G

Gustav

Banned
Kron said:
Thanks for being part of the problem and setting the lowest standards possible for the rest of us.

For an analogy I guess you'd be ok buying a new car in 2013 and letting the dealership put massive dents in all of the body panels because its what your car was like in 1985.

[i mg]http://www.a-w-i-p.com/media/blogs/articles/Articles25/EUR_euro_down_the_street-drain.jpg[/img]
Click to expand...

WTF just happened here?
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
mclem said:
"Hey fans, remember when we treated you like shit? Wanna relive that memory?"

Y'know, Nintendo, it's remarkable, but it turns out I *don't*. Who knew?
Click to expand...

Yeah, if I cared about replicating my childhood experiences then I'd demand that any C64/Speccy game I downloaded would take ages to load and only work half of the time.
 
M

mclem

Member
PedroPanache said:
Yeah, if I cared about replicating my childhood experiences then I'd demand that any C64/Speccy game I downloaded would take ages to load and only work half of the time.
Click to expand...

There are Spectrum emulators that accurately model the loading experience. It's... actually quite appealingly nostalgic. As an option.
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
mclem said:
There are Spectrum emulators that accurately model the loading experience. It's... actually quite appealingly nostalgic. As an option.
Click to expand...

You know, the loading screen for Atari 800XL games fills me with nostalgia overload. It was the first computer my family ever bought, and I'd love to be able to load up a game old school for nostalgia purposes. Plus you can't go wrong with C64 loader music, really.
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
DeFiBkIlLeR said:
What he's trying to say is apathetic people like you are the reason they're able to get away with treating PAL land like shit.

If you're not bothered about it, why should they be...
Click to expand...
I completely disagree. The people who are really to blame are those bothered by it yet don't complain directly to Nintendo. You can't decide when people are angry about certain things.
 
G

Gustav

Banned
DeFiBkIlLeR said:
What he's trying to say is apathetic people like you are the reason they're able to get away with treating PAL land like shit.

If you're not bothered about it, why should they be...
Click to expand...

I'm not apathetic. I don't want high pitched Mario themes. I want it like I experienced it.
 
Neff

Neff

Member
honeymustardn said:
I don't think it's the ROMs that specify whether it's 50 or 60Hz, as with the SNES and Megadrive, it's a chip inside the console that dictates the refresh rate (you can mod the console by applying a different voltage to a certain pin and it will always display at 60Hz). Because of this, I'm pretty sure it's the emulator that comes with each game that will specify the refresh rate.
Click to expand...

With some consoles (such as NES, SNES, Master System, Mega Drive, N64, Saturn), it's the console that decides what refresh rate it outputs, and it's usually fixed. Other consoles (such as PSone, Dreamcast, PS2), allow the game to decide.

Also, there are twice as many 50hz Miiverse posts as yesterday. We are making slight, slow progress, but progress nonetheless.
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
DeFiBkIlLeR said:
So it's up to the few who want to play the games as the designers intended, to do the heavy lifting for the ignorant and apathetic..
Click to expand...

Well yeah. For one, most people aren't even aware of it. And why should people who don't mind it go out of their way to help you?

I don't live in the UK so I don't have this problem and I'm sure I would be frustrated if I did, but don't blame the people who are just enjoying their games.

Edit: Sorry I didn't mean to come off as rude or anything. I have to hand it to you for spreading awareness though. This is the first I've ever heard of this problem.
 
R

Rich!

Member
Gustav said:
I'm not apathetic. I don't want high pitched Mario themes. I want it like I experienced it.
Click to expand...

Da fuck

You wouldn't have any change to the sound. The sound will be the exact same pitch. But if you want to play with a squashed image with massive black borders and muted colours, be my guest. The rest of us, however, do not enjoy the sensation of being fucked in the ass by Nintendo.
 
V

vireland

Member
MrNyarlathotep said:
The PSN PS1 classics are still the shitty 50Hz versions too, I believe.
Along with the extended SCEE bootup logo.
Click to expand...

Not the SCEE NTSC imports. We got Alundra and Tomba fixed amongst others so they emulate at the correct speed for SCEE users, despite being wrong at the start. Still working on getting some others updated to play correctly.
 
Hesemonni

Hesemonni

Banned
50Hz is the only reason I have 0 bought VC games or PSN classics. Which is sad since I'd be allover FFIX on my Vita :/ On PS3 you could change accounts and buy from US PSN, but it's too much of a hassle.
 
Neff

Neff

Member
Hesemonni said:
On PS3 you could change accounts and buy from US PSN, but it's too much of a hassle.
Click to expand...

It's actually very easy to do. All you need is an existing American address (you can literally use any), and a method of purchasing US PSN cards.

The US store has a pretty good range of PSone games, and naturally they're all 60hz. It's well worth it.
 
E

elektrixx

Banned
Neff said:
It's actually very easy to do. All you need is an existing American address (you can literally use any), and a method of purchasing US PSN cards.

The US store has a pretty good range of PSone games, and naturally they're all 60hz. It's well worth it.
Click to expand...

Except you own them on uncertain terms. Legalities aside, you may never have access to any of this on future consoles. You're always one firmware update away from losing it all.
 
I

IdreamofHIME

Member
I hated the days of 50hz, you'd think a company that released Metroid Prime 2 (60hz only in Europe), would be more open to this idea.

It really ruined some games, one of the reasons I can't wait for FFXHD is coz the PAL version was so bad. Tidus runs like he's in the Matrix.
 
Neff

Neff

Member
elektrixx said:
Except you own them on uncertain terms. Legalities aside, you may never have access to any of this on future consoles. You're always one firmware update away from losing it all.
Click to expand...

Well that's another issue entirely. Personally I'm quite comfortable with the concept of DD games, which is why Nintendo's decision to release 50hz games in Europe irks me.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Arren said:
Just look at this comparison video for Mario Kart 64, from 1.00 onwards.
Click to expand...

Tell me about it.

My only exposure to SM64 was playing it at HMV prior to launch. At the time I did not know that the demo machine was a US version.

I'll never forget the huge disappointment I felt getting SM64 home for the first time. What the fuck was this. Massive borders and slow down.

Cost me a small fortune trading in my UK machine for a US one. But well worth it. And I've still got it.

There is no way I'm buying any of this VC stuff unless they fix this issue.
 
E

elektrixx

Banned
Neff said:
Well that's another issue entirely. Personally I'm quite comfortable with the concept of DD games, which is why Nintendo's decision to release 50hz games in Europe irks me.
Click to expand...

I'm all for DD games. It's lying to get your games from another source that is not future proof.
 
gingerbeardman

gingerbeardman

Member
Gustav said:
I'm not apathetic. I don't want high pitched Mario themes. I want it like I experienced it.
Click to expand...
Ok, you want a slow motion experience. You want to be lied to for a second time. Just keep in mind that every Mario tune recently will have been the correct speed, and thVC one will be slow and probably not like you remember.

We're fine with that, but you have to understand that it's kind of burying your head in the sand or putting your fingers in your ears.
 
H

honeymustardn

Member
M3d10n said:
The music will change, unless e game is designed yo support both 50hz and 60hz. The vast majority of games from that era were not designed with variable framerate in minde and changing from 50fps to 60fps will change their speed, period.

If only the "graphics" speed up while the music doesn't, then cutscenes would go out of sync, for example.
Click to expand...

Nah, for the SNES mod, it only affects the PPU chips, so audio is unaffected. If you check the guide I posted a link to, it has photos of the chips :)
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
I support the intent of the OP, unfortunately Nintendo is patently incompetent when it comes to localization and completely ignorant to user feedback, so I don't believe a thing will change,
 
K

Keasar

Member
Is this effect already on the Wii Virtual Console? I am currently playing Mega Man X and I have this nagging feeling that some things are moving slower than I can recall seeing on videos like wall jumping.

Edit:
Then Wii came along and unwisely locked all its VC games to 50hz.
Click to expand...

Damn, everything? That just sucks...
 
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