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So, about the Wii U 50hz VC...
- Thread starter Neff
- Start date
Robin64
Member
Thanks for not reading the thread, Junior.
We're not talking about Balloon Fight and we're not talking about the price 30p.
We're talking about the entire service and games will be full priced on there outside of the promotion.
AndyMoogle
Member
I keep seeing people saying that Nintendo should use NTSC ROMs instead of PAL, but I was under the impression that they are using PAL ROMs running at 60Hz on 3DS rather than using NTSC versions.
Arren
Member
It is interesting to note that, on a technical level, it is perfectly possible to force PAL NES ROMs to play at 60Hz, restoring the proper gameplay speed.
The only games where this could be problematic are those that feature some sort of narrative cutscene with an exact timing (for instance RPGs such as Final Fantasy), where the synchronization could be compromised. But even this effect is very different from game to game.
No, unfortunately PS1 and even a large majority of PS2 games were hard-locked to 50hz, with no selector as well. Try to find a comparison video for Final Fantasy X PAL / NTSC and you'll immediately spot the difference.
The only games where this could be problematic are those that feature some sort of narrative cutscene with an exact timing (for instance RPGs such as Final Fantasy), where the synchronization could be compromised. But even this effect is very different from game to game.
No, unfortunately PS1 and even a large majority of PS2 games were hard-locked to 50hz, with no selector as well. Try to find a comparison video for Final Fantasy X PAL / NTSC and you'll immediately spot the difference.
Happened on the majority of PS1 and PS2 games. Go search YouTube for Final Fantasy X 50/60Hz comparisons. Or Devil May Cry. The difference is plain as day.
I tweeted NintendoUK and NintendoEurope with a link to this topic, expressing my absolute disgust at this continued 50Hz business in Europe. I urge people to do the same. I personally have never bought a VC game because of the 50Hz stuff, and will continue to never buy a VC game for as long as they treat us like crap. It's 2013 for crying out loud! Disgrace.
It was always problem up until the PS2 generation (so basically until HD came along). Worst example for borders is FFX on PS2. I remember Tekken 3 on PSX being noticably slower than the NTSC version.
Wouldn't that cause problems with games that got some kind of PAL optimization?
Another clear effect of 50Hz in the last generation is Sonic Heroes. Boot the game in 50Hz mode and let the demo play. Clearly the demo is simulating button presses at a certain time to make the demo look how it should, but in 50Hz mode, it all fucks up and the CPU basically dies.
On the contrary, all broadcast TV in Europe is still 50 Hz as are all PAL DVDs. Blu-rays are 50 Hz capable but also work with 60 Hz and 24fps
I'm sure this decision to ship 50hz VC games is down to language rather than technical issues though.
Arren
Member
Well, PAL DVD play precisely at 25fps, which creates another wide array of problems with 90% of american cinematography, like the infamous 'PAL speedup' which affects both speed and pitch. It's still an issue caused by video format incompatibilities, but it's slightly different.
Luckily there are ways to reverse that, such as the use of the Reclock software.
That's all the Wii U VC needs: an option.
Ein Bear
Member
Sorry, I worded my post poorly. What I meant was that current TV sets have no problem whatsoever with displaying 60hz signals, and that if you still have a TV that doesn't play nice with them then you're not even going to get TV broadcasted on them since the switchover.
If even the government are allowed to say "Fuck anyone who's TV can't display this, it's 2013", then surely Nintendo are.
The slower walking speed was pretty noticeable from those vids but it never annoyed me while I was playing though. I don't seem to remember the borders, I guess those were only there on widescreen TVs? I've always played my non-HD games on a 4:3 CRT so maybe that's why I never saw these borders?
frankie_baby
Member
not strictly true as most people get their tv through a box plugged into it, i'd believe the percentage of tvs that wont work with 60hz is probably fairly noticable
The thing is, other than for framerate (which wasn't regarded as *that* important when the systems were originally designed), PAL is by some margin a superior system; better colour vibrancy, higher resolution. There's a reason why NTSC has the pejorative nickname "Never Twice Same Colour"!
Pretty sure you need to go and pop an old game in, assuming you've still got some PS1/PS2 games. Black borders appear on all TVs, widescreen or square.
So why then was Metroid Prime 2 60HZ only? Why is there no option to adjust the Wii U menu to compensate for overscan, another legacy television standard? Can you even buy TVs that don't support 60Hz anymore? And even if by some chance you have some ancient/exotic TV that doesn't support 60HZ, you can still play the game on the game pad. There's really no excuse for this.
Are there even different language versions of Balloon Fight? And what about games that are English only or that weren't localized in all the eShop languages? Why sell the inferior UK version in those when the NTSC one has the same ''language barrier''?
This is so damn stupid in this day and age. They obviously have both the 50 and 60hz versions, so just give people both and let them select which one they want to play with a checkbox or something in the Wii U menu. I know Nintendo likes to do VC emulation exactly like it runs on the real hardware, but in this case the real PAL hardware was fucking gimped (especially the NES) and it's something we European gamers hate.
I don't have any Wii VC N64 games, but are they also adding some extra vaseline filters to the PAL version, seeing as the PAL N64 has MUCH blurrier video output (and can only really output composite, s-video looks like shit on PAL N64)?? If they don't do that, then it doesn't seem to have to do with being accurate to the original. So why must we suffer with the other consoles? It's such an easy fix, just give people both PAL and NTSC versions and let them choose themselves. Hell why not give Americans and Japanese players the PAL version? Not that anyone would actually want to play the PAL version anyway, so they might as well just remove the PAL version and save their money on accurately emulating that shit.
I don't have any Wii VC N64 games, but are they also adding some extra vaseline filters to the PAL version, seeing as the PAL N64 has MUCH blurrier video output (and can only really output composite, s-video looks like shit on PAL N64)?? If they don't do that, then it doesn't seem to have to do with being accurate to the original. So why must we suffer with the other consoles? It's such an easy fix, just give people both PAL and NTSC versions and let them choose themselves. Hell why not give Americans and Japanese players the PAL version? Not that anyone would actually want to play the PAL version anyway, so they might as well just remove the PAL version and save their money on accurately emulating that shit.
Arren
Member
Perfectly put. Besides, I mean, we are talking about an HD console that's primarily geared towards people with a HD set.
The Wii U Gamepad itself is 480p or even HD enabled, so such a limiting and archaic choice in this time and age is, for all account and purposes, inexcusable.
Robin64
Member
I don't think we've been able to buy TVs that don't support 60hz for about 15 years at this point. It's not just an old standard, it's ancient. Anyone with a 50hz only TV still knocking around (assuming it the CRT hasn't blown by now, which is highly likely) would not be using it for anything other than watching old VHS tapes. Probably over RF cable.
It's *dead*. Nintendo don't need to support it. Our broadcasters don't.
It's *dead*. Nintendo don't need to support it. Our broadcasters don't.
Also guys, on the PAL SNES the music runs at the correct speed because the sound chip in the SNES uses a seperate clock speed from the CPU. The CPU and GPU is downclocked slightly though (just like in the NES, which has it's sound generating hardware embedded in the CPU which is what causes the music to run slower on that console) which makes the video slower. For example, if I'm playing my copy of Earthbound on my PAL SNES (with RGB SCART!) and say watch a performance by The Runaway Five, the music will not be synced with the performance because the video is running slower than it's supposed to. So the music stops like 7-10 seconds before the dance number is over.
Just wanted to correct people because some were saying they didn't want to play Super Metroid and F-Zero with slower music. You don't have to worry about the music for anything other than the NES. But the black borders... they will be there, waiting for you.
Just wanted to correct people because some were saying they didn't want to play Super Metroid and F-Zero with slower music. You don't have to worry about the music for anything other than the NES. But the black borders... they will be there, waiting for you.
Petty as hell, but I wonder if they're not doing that simply because that's allowing you to effectively purchase two games for the price of one, while the US people only get one game for their money.
Something that absolutely shouldn't matter - but I could see it bothering them nevertheless.
Ein Bear
Member
Also: forced German/French subtitles :/
That was pure dev lazyness, even on GC. Some 50HZ only releases can even be patched in a few seconds to allow 60HZ games. Some were even able to run 60HZ on VGA box by tricking the boot sequence.
KennyLinder
Member
Mad World PAL made me fucking MAD.
Dirty, lazy piece of shit port.
Dirty, lazy piece of shit port.
Are you seriously calling the folks who are complaining, nerds? In a derogatory fashion no less, and on a videogame forum that's mostly.comprised of core gamers.
Someone needs a breather; its not the "nerds" either.
Again, not true. You can connect a freeview box or Sky box to a 50Hz television and watch TV fine.
When Wave Race 64 came out in the UK, I wrote a letter of complaint to Nintendo UK about the borders. As you say, the PAL borders were huge, due to the fact that even in NTSC the game was displayed within a bordered window to keep the frame rate up. This seriously rankled my 16-year-old self.
I'm not sure if I still have the reply letter, but the guy tried to fob me off with this explanation:
"The borders on Wave Race 64 are intended to mimic the effect of a widescreen film."
HA HA HA. What a bullshitter. I was one of those people buying VHS films in widescreen for £15.99, so this wasn't going to cut it on any level.
I think this was still in the days when the UK operation was run by THE Games, but it goes to show Nintendo has historically treated PAL conversions as something only obsessives care about, and it looks like they haven't moved on a whole lot since.
Interesting. What about the N64? Same deal with separate clock speed? The reason I ask is we had a UK console at our house and bought the US NTSC Mario Kart 64 while on holiday, and ran it through an adapter. Our TV was old and busted so we got a ghosted image, but we just dealt with it and enjoyed the game (those were the days). It felt really fast but I chalked it up to being used to PAL games. (The only NTSC game we had owned before was SNES SFII.)
A few years later I finally played the PAL version for the first time and it was sooooo slow...but oddly enough, I would later play the NTSC version on an NTSC console and it was still slower than the version I was used to! I could tell because the music was burned into my brain by this stage.
Unless I was just imagining it, is it possible that we were running the NTSC game at 120% speed on the PAL console somehow? Maybe it's all just getting muddled in my brain...
Hmm, I'm not entirely sure about the later consoles. I think the N64 has its sound generation hardware in the CPU as well actually, but the music is obviously the correct speed anyway. Even running an NTSC N64 game on a PAL N64 will give you the correct music speed. I don't know why this is though. I guess it's because the CPU in the N64 has the same clock speed all over the world. At that point in time there were probably better ways to get a console to display at 50hz other than downclocking. What you experienced with the faster gameplay might have been because of the particular TV though, but I dunno. I do know that on the GC I was used to running Mario Kart DD in 60hz, and when we played on my friends TV which only supported 50hz one day, I noticed that the timing for getting a boost start was a little off. But the music was playing at the correct speed.
Edit: Perhaps your TV was displaying 60 FPS though a 50hz signal and that somehow messed up the speed. Seems strange but I'm not an expert on these things
Harimau kecil
Neo Member
No, this couldn't be the case. TV sets just take what's given to them. If the tv somehow sped up the video then it would have to predict what the Gamecube would send.Edit: Perhaps your TV was displaying 60 FPS though a 50hz signal and that somehow messed up the speed. Seems strange but I'm not an expert on these things
About the timing, sure. If you played DD on 60 Hertz, and then on 50 Hertz, you would probably notice the difference.
If anyone is interested, while all these games played a little slower on our old PAL TV sets, all video and tv series (originally recorded at 24 fps) were sped up on our 25fps system.
JetSetRadio
Banned
I've been importing games for over 15 years now. Friends didn't know what was going on when we played at my house.
This is just pathetic. I wouldn't spend a penny on this service fellow Europeans!
This is just pathetic. I wouldn't spend a penny on this service fellow Europeans!
Did Nintendo even bother to fix Super Mario Bros on the Euro VC? It looked horrible, colours were muddy as shit, they did some mojo to make it display at 60hz, which made it run faster than it should have, fucking it up even further, because originally it had something done to it so it would play properly in Pal 50.
It was horrible, never thought I would regret buying SMB1 but yeah I did.
It was horrible, never thought I would regret buying SMB1 but yeah I did.
Neff
Member
50hz screws up a lot of games in complex ways that devs didn't always have the time to test and fix. Like real, tangible, broken stuff. It's a terrible practice.
They need to offer two versions for each DD purchase you make. Multilingual PAL, and NTSC with the disclaimer that it only features English and (barely relevant, but maybe legally necessary for those over-60s still rockin' '80s CRTs) is only compatible with 60hz TVs.
This is the ideal, realistic, workable scenario, and it needs to happen.
BTW thanks for pretty much four pages of near-solid agreement. I love you guys.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Ha ha ha. 50hz for the pal version in 2013. Funny as fuck.
This topic needs exposure. We really need to keep up the complaints. On here, on Twitter (@NintendoUK and @NintendoEurope), on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/WiiU.co.uk), on Miiverse. Everywhere you can.
I do not even own a Wii U but I am not going to sit back and let this slide. It's a disgraceful practice. I will never, ever spend a penny on VC games unless we get the respect us fans deserve.
I do not even own a Wii U but I am not going to sit back and let this slide. It's a disgraceful practice. I will never, ever spend a penny on VC games unless we get the respect us fans deserve.
Europe. And probably Australasia?
gingerbeardman
Member
Just tweeted them. Will get on MiiVerse later on.
HermitArcader
Banned
Same here, Platinum Games and SEGA Europe deserve a lot of stick for the PAL version.
If somebody starts a campaign aimed at Nintendo Europe, SCEE and every third party then I'll gladly join in and do my part emailing as many companies as possible.
There is no excuse for this anymore and the industry is losing potential back catalogue revenue as I refuse to pay for inferior 50hz versions.
I got a reply from Nitendo's CS:
''Dear costumer,
the reason [for Wii U's Balloon Fight running at 50Hz] is that we wanted the experience to be as close to the original as possible.''
Strange how they didn't address why the NES games on 3DS run at 60Hz. I will press them further.
Which Basically translates to:
''Dear costumer,
the reason [for Wii U's Balloon Fight running at 50Hz] is that we wanted the experience to be as close to the original as possible.''
Strange how they didn't address why the NES games on 3DS run at 60Hz. I will press them further.
Oh wow. I never noticed on PS2 ofc, because I had not seen 60HZ games on a TV!!
This FFX vid is hilarious in how baaaaaaaaad the PAL version is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7h9htbYDss
Look at how slow and squished the PAL version is. Damn.
This FFX vid is hilarious in how baaaaaaaaad the PAL version is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7h9htbYDss
Look at how slow and squished the PAL version is. Damn.
Nintendo game site Cubed3 has created a petition to get Nintendo Europe to sort this mess.
Anything is worth a go at this point.
Anything is worth a go at this point.
plagiarize
Banned
laugh all you like, but no, they aren't giving it to us for free. they're selling it cheaply for a month.