• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)

sonicmj1

Member
My point is extremely obvious actually, I don't know how you didn't get it. A dozen other people apparently didn't either so don't feel bad.

What I'd like to know is how many people are arguing from a position of knowledge that these numbers are reasonable, as opposed to repeatedly and uselessly asserting the ignorance of people arguing the opposite.

FWIW I'm not arguing that the numbers aren't reasonable, but at the same time I don't see how a simple "breakdown" of the costs helps at all, since I'm not in a position to judge the smaller amounts any more than the larger one. And this should be considered a problem for KS projects. On the one hand you have a project like Sui Generis that is making an open world RPG and asked for 150K. And now a similar amount for a single character in an existing game.

Normally, if we were working with nothing but the numbers on the IndieGoGo page, that question would make sense. But this thread was literally started with a link to an article where someone takes those numbers, brings them to people with no stake in Skullgirls who do have significant knowledge about the costs of making 2D fighters, and confirms that they're reasonable. We have links to detailed video breakdowns of the production pipeline for the game, and posts from people who have done work in 2D animation for video games. Just by reading the thread and following a link or two, a layman could leave with a pretty decent amount of knowledge, if they were so inclined.

That's why it seems weird every time someone jumps in making such critical claims about the accuracy of these estimates. That question was answered in part in the OP, and in full elsewhere in this thread.

That said, props to Servbot24 for taking the effort to get a real sense of how labor-intensive this work is. It's much easier to walk away from an internet discussion than it is to put in a few hours of effort to put your theories to the test one way or the other.
Yeah, this did dawn on me while drawing it.

Minor note though, consider that part of that 2.5 hours went into coming up with the design elements. I tried a few different shapes and erased things before landing on that one. Plus, each drawing is going to be based on the drawing that comes before it, which doesn't mean you get to just trace, but you do get a very close reference for your next drawing. So 1-1.5 hours is more what each frame would likely take. That's 3000 hours. Working 12 hour days gives you 250 days. Of course that doesn't count all the problems and redoing that you'll have to do along the way.

Of course I haven't ever done anything like this; RagingSpaniard has. As mentioned above, Capcom has and says this figure seems cheap. So I'm not doubting that the Skullgirls devs are hard working by any means, I'm confident they are very efficient. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it really.

It's great to see people actively learning because of forum discussions.
 

wildfire

Banned
My point is extremely obvious actually, I don't know how you didn't get it. A dozen other people apparently didn't either so don't feel bad.

What I'd like to know is how many people are arguing from a position of knowledge that these numbers are reasonable, as opposed to repeatedly and uselessly asserting the ignorance of people arguing the opposite.

FWIW I'm not arguing that the numbers aren't reasonable, but at the same time I don't see how a simple "breakdown" of the costs helps at all, since I'm not in a position to judge the smaller amounts any more than the larger one. And this should be considered a problem for KS projects. On the one hand you have a project like Sui Generis that is making an open world RPG and asked for 150K. And now a similar amount for a single character in an existing game.


Everyone who you think didn't get your point actually fully understood your point you twit. You don't understand they were throwing your logic back at you by revealing how much you wanted to create false equivalencies.

Benefactors will throw the same or different amount of money they are willing to spend. It is up to any beneficiary on IndieGoGo and Kickstarter to set up a funding milestone that can be reached so they can be funded and still be able to deliver the quality they want to give.

Stop revealing to everyone how much; in your attempt to be their guardian angel with knowledge bombs because, you only come across as an idiot who doesn't understand that benefactors have already done the cost-benefit analysis in the first place.


$150k is what is costs to make a full serious game. That's from acquisition, conception, requirements elicitation and engineering, instructional and game design, programming, animation, voice work, etc. until delivery, including profit margin, renting studios and the lot.

That usually takes a team of 4-5 persons in various makeups up till 10 weeks.
Sure it gets a lot less QA, and they'll reuse some assets, but definitely not as much as this character will, which already has the complete game around it.

This guy on the first page has gotten it right imo.

My God. I thought we were making progress in this thread but the idiocy needs to be squashed like roaches.
 

spekkeh

Banned
So you've basically ignored everything in this thread up until this point huh?

That's cool I guess.

Here's some links to get you started though :
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/the-little-fighting-game-that-could/1100-4587/

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyv08xUBuVkKMtgq47JwntBt87QSwqZzo

Well I did miss Raging Spaniard's post the first time round. I don't think the budget is ca-razy per se, but the main problem that I see here that's driving up the cost is how much is outsourced and then needs to be coordinated. So I stand by what the guy I quoted said; this would be a lot cheaper if they already had the guys inhouse and on the payroll, but they don't and need extra money to set up shop. I can see why an indie dev would not be able to immediately start work on the DLC as soon as the main game is finished, so there isn't really any other way.

Just hope for them it's profitable (luckily their risk is diverted to the crowdfunders).
 

Keikaku

Member
Well I did miss Raging Spaniard's post the first time round. I don't think the budget is ca-razy per se, but the main problem that I see here that's driving up the cost is how much is outsourced and then needs to be coordinated. So I stand by what the guy I quoted said; this would be a lot cheaper if they already had the guys inhouse and on the payroll, but they don't and need extra money to set up shop. I can see why an indie dev would not be able to immediately start work on the DLC as soon as the main game is finished, so there isn't really any other way.

Just hope for them it's profitable (luckily their risk is diverted to the crowdfunders).
"I've seen what people who work in the industry say but eff that-my common sense, seat of the pants calculation makes way more sense! If you listened to me you wouldn't be so wasteful."

Unbelievable.
 

Zissou

Member
Well I did miss Raging Spaniard's post the first time round. I don't think the budget is ca-razy per se, but the main problem that I see here that's driving up the cost is how much is outsourced and then needs to be coordinated. So I stand by what the guy I quoted said; this would be a lot cheaper if they already had the guys inhouse and on the payroll, but they don't and need extra money to set up shop. I can see why an indie dev would not be able to immediately start work on the DLC as soon as the main game is finished, so there isn't really any other way.

Just hope for them it's profitable (luckily their risk is diverted to the crowdfunders).

Well the character will free for everyone once released, so they won't make much money off of it.
 

wildfire

Banned
... this would be a lot cheaper if they already had the guys inhouse and on the payroll, but they don't and need extra money to set up shop. I can see why an indie dev would not be able to immediately start work on the DLC as soon as the main game is finished, so there isn't really any other way.

Just hope for them it's profitable (luckily their risk is diverted to the crowdfunders).

Cheaper? You better use that sponge you call a brain and realize people outsource for efficiency purposes.

How do you propose any company to have 20 additional artists and the relevant infrastructure to support them (animation software, PCs, boarding costs while working) for the same cost as what the SG team are going to need for 2-3 months. How do you propose any company after they are finished with their DLC to keep that staff employed on a new project? You aren't thinking it through what the business models of these companies that are being outsourced to actually do.

By being overly specialized in certain tasks they have the advantage in becoming vastly cheaper than most independent companies can hope to afford with dedicated staff because they are being contracted by multiple companies at once. It's the service industry version of economies of scale.
 

Feep

Banned
why the fuck did these guys decide to make the most expensive character of all time knowing the state of their company
Additional cost incurred by addition of second voice actor: $300-$500

Additional cost beyond voice acting incurred by addition of a second "part" of the character: $0
 

sonicmj1

Member
Well I did miss Raging Spaniard's post the first time round. I don't think the budget is ca-razy per se, but the main problem that I see here that's driving up the cost is how much is outsourced and then needs to be coordinated. So I stand by what the guy I quoted said; this would be a lot cheaper if they already had the guys inhouse and on the payroll, but they don't and need extra money to set up shop. I can see why an indie dev would not be able to immediately start work on the DLC as soon as the main game is finished, so there isn't really any other way.

Just hope for them it's profitable (luckily their risk is diverted to the crowdfunders).

More links that have already been posted in this thread from the development team.

It would take us between 6 and 10 times as long to do the animation in-betweening and clean-up ourselves. Contracting that stuff out saves us a TON of money because we don't have to pay salaries to the whole staff for that time, and the assignments are per-frame.

We distribute a character's ~1500 frames of animation across between 70-100 people, typically, so we can get it done in 1-2 months.
1. No, the staff will be working full-time making this character. We have to do a ton of work to support the outsourcing efforts.

During the development of the core game, our internal art staff routinely worked 80-100 hour weeks. And that's with the 70-100 animation contractors we use supporting us.

2. We wouldn't be paying these salaries if we weren't making this character because we're still in the (very) formative stages of being a new studio. We don't have an office or other projects at the moment - everyone's working from home, for the most part, tracking everything online. This is something our team is actually very good at.

3. A full 40% of the money we're requesting is going to what we needed to do to get the money and get the content onto people's systems. Hugely inefficient, but it's not like we had a choice.
Our art staff is working full-time for the entirety of the project. Just because we outsource in-betweening and clean-up doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. On the core game, they were working 80-100 hours a week for the majority of the project.

Also, keep in mind, we're talking 1500 frames of animation, divided into three layers each. So that's 4500 art assets. It would take SIGNIFICANTLY longer to produce this amount of art without outsourcing, and that's more time we're paying salaries. 2D animation is a LOT of hard work, and distributing it widely is the only way to get it done in a reasonable timeframe.

And we could do hitboxes ourselves, but the designers' time is better spent actually implementing the character and balancing the game, which are things that only he can do. And, again, the less bottlenecks you have from salaried employees, the cheaper everything is.

It would be more expensive to do this work in house than it is to outsource it, as they are doing.
 

Keikaku

Member
The best part is that $60,000 of the proposed cost is fixed. The following items were always going to be there for a new character:
  • $20,000: QA Testing (Mandated by publisher, no way to get around it)
  • $10,000: 1st Party Certification (No certification, no new character)
  • $10,500: IndieGoGo and Payment Processing Fees (obviously out of the devs control)
  • $20,500: Manufacturing and Shipping Physical Rewards (unless no-one wants their rewards...)
A new character for $90,000 is dirt cheap (even more so than if the full, actual cost had been $150,000. That's at least years worth of work for one artist, all the bells and whistles to balance it and get it working in game and it's coming in a few months. That's ridiculously fast, efficient and cheap.
 

spekkeh

Banned
"I've seen what people who work in the industry say but eff that-my common sense, seat of the pants calculation makes way more sense! If you listened to me you wouldn't be so wasteful."

Unbelievable.

I think you're misreading what I was arguing. I'm not saying this isn't a bargain by games industry standards, I'm saying entertainment games industry standards may be a bit off if serious games studios can create complete games for that price. Conversely, maybe my own standards are wrong and serious games are dirt cheap (or of crappy quality).

I'm not saying they're not using 70-100 animators (which is incredible and does make this whole thing a true bargain). I'm more thinking aloud why the hell does a single character need 70-100 animators, that looks like such a wasteful business decision. I also concede that I glossed over this point:

A full 40% of the money we're requesting is going to what we needed to do to get the money and get the content onto people's systems. Hugely inefficient, but it's not like we had a choice.

I would say 90.000 tops for the creation is actually pretty decent.
 

Empty

Member
this article and thread have been very informative. i was really totally clueless about the economics of production before now, lots to think about.
 

mclem

Member
Most devs are pretty conservative with what they ask for on kickstarter, and they plan the projects to be doable on a relatively low budget. Double Fine only asked for 300k originally for their game. Now people have become a bit more confident, and some of the most established devs are asking for about a million for some seemingly very ambitious projects. But here's a team that most people had thought of as indies asking for 150k for just a bit of DLC. If Tim Shafer can make an entire game for 300k surely an indie dev shouldn't need anywhere near that much. But it's not an indie game, and it's not designed to be made on a shoestring budget, and they can't really change their workflow or the level of quality now.

And, for that matter, the original scope for DFA was *tiny*. Heck, the original pitch was more "let's give you a look into how games are made" rather than "let's make an awesome adventure"

DFA's original intro paragraph said:
The world of video game design is a mysterious one. What really happens behind the closed doors of a development studio is often unknown, unappreciated, or misunderstood. And the bigger the studio, the more tightly shut its door tends to be. With this project, we're taking that door off its hinges and inviting you into the world of Double Fine Productions, the first major studio to fully finance their next game with a Kickstarter campaign and develop it in the public eye.

It's now escalated into a full-blown adventure, of course, but make no bones about it; the game that was pitched for $300,000 was a very different affair and - I suspect - at release may well have inspired similar "THAT cost $300,000?" comments.

We may well yet get "THAT cost $2.5M?!?", of course!
 

SovanJedi

provides useful feedback
I wish more people would listen to those that have actual experience doing this line of work more carefully. Raging Spaniard pretty much outlined everything necessary.

Now stop with this "Hobbyists can do this for $0, why can't the pros?" bollocks before my head explodes.
 

Steaks

Member
150k is a totally reasonable amount of money (cheap) for an extremely art intensive piece of DLC.

You guys really have to consider that this is not just a pile of game mechanics. This is about 1/8th of the total art assets the main game has, and it would (in theory) sell a small fraction of what the game did. This is also starving artist salary with outsourced art. If this was some inhouse AAA studio full salary for positions deal (senior animators, mid-senior programer, techdesigner etc salaries), it'd be way way way way way way more expensive.

I mean, a lot of the expense comes from the art and Mike Z being able to afford a sandwich every once in a while. It's pretty cheap. If they weren't dealing with consoles, it'd probably be way cheaper haha, round 30k less.
 

Margalis

Banned
I question the wisdom of using a random twitter feed as an argument for anything.

The fact that a single nobody on Twitter finds something lame is not particularly relevant.
 

mclem

Member
I have no clue what point you're trying to make here (if you even have one), because the budget isn't twice as much, and they aren't asking for that. So why bring it up?

Actually, it's probably worth bearing in mind that they could - justifiably - have asked for maybe an extra $40k and actually paid the dev team a normal wage. I do wonder if that would have increased the sticker shock further.

In other words: What they're asking for here is significantly cheaper than it ought to cost, thanks to the dev team taking a big hit - the price tags that some people are getting surprised by would - ordinarily - be somewhat higher.
 

Owensboro

Member
Here is some reference from my own experiences. Typically I dont like to share these kinds of details with people who just DEMAND information they havent earned, but discussion has shifted here a bit and its good to see.

I was one of the contractors, well, still am! I did some of the cleanup animation. By the time I got an assignment, the animation rough had been approved by Kinuko and at this point it could make the final game or it could not (thats all in the testing, balancing and memory management) Smartasses in this thread have questioned the need for engineers in a game thats already "done" and thats a big mistake. The original game had to have animations cut because we had run out of memory, so on a technical standpoint, how the fuck are we gonna add more characters? Well shit, good thing theres engineers on the team to figure that shit out, huh? Thats only one of the challenges too.

But anyways, to the point. You may get a short animation (6 frames aprox), medium (12, 15 ish) or large (20 plus) theres also varying degrees of importance (normal move vs animation that only triggers when two duplicate characters hit each other with the same move) and theres also character design details to add to the difficulty (Valentine is more simple than Painwheel, for example). One extra wrinkle is the level of sketchiness in the animation rough. Some animators will make the drawings so tight that theres no room for improvisation while others will basically blank out the face and all of a sudden you find yourself animating faces from scratch!)

For an outsourcer, since you dont have access to the team at your immediate need, its important to be diligent with the reference materials. Very few artists draw like Alex or Kinuko and its our job to make our art look exactly like theirs. If you look at my art youll find that my style is not really close, so I cant just start on the task right away, I need to study the reference provided carefully and make sure I "get" the character before I start.

So once you start, the first deliverable is to digitally ink all the frames. Im a clasically trained 2D animator and have a fulltime art gig, so eventhough Im fast I can only start working on this when I get home. This is another of the unfortunate realities that come with an ambitious project like this, that a lot of outside help already has other projects going on, so they cant give you 8 hours a day. I came home at 7 after drawing all day and spent another 5 hours doing Skullgirls work. Typically after two days I would send a medium sized animation over for approval from Richard, who is the awesome cleanup genius at Lab Zero. Approval usually takes about a day because Richard is getting deliverables from the outsources, who if you have seen the credits are way more than 20 ... So basically Richard is art directing 20+ people AND doing cleanup work himself, meaning he basically doesnt get to go home (so its great to have to listen to assholes here tell me that he needs to justify his $600 a week) I had the pleasure of meeting him a few months back and hes going gray already, haha.

So yeah, approval. While I wait for that to show up I get started on the next frame. Very rarely does the linework get approved on the first try. Usually something is inconsistent, a weapon looks weird or the shapes are a little flat. Depending on the damage you may have to do 20% percent of work or maybe even up to 50. Its important to get this stuff approved because otherwise you cant move on to shading and coloring, which are the next steps.

Once youre approved and do the shading and color pass (which take about 60% of the time it takes to ink) you send those off for approval as well, make some last minute touch ups due to feedback and THEN the animation is done on your end. Before it ends in the game proper, chances are Richard has fixed some things himself ... So Id say on average I could get about 60 ish frames of animation a week, and seeing how the character with the FEWEST amount of animations has about 1500 then you start to get an idea of how just one step of the process works.

THEN we look at Squigly. What a lot of you arent realizing is that she has MULTIPLE STANCES. What does that mean? TWICE THE ANIMATIONS.

Can you start to see how the hours pile up and have NOTHING to do with proper managing? A fighting game is unlike any other game. A character in a fighting game is the equivalent of a character + level design + the game design of any other game.

But hey yeah, lazy devs, right?
Daaaaaaamn son, what an awesome post. Thank you so much for the insight.

This thread has been the most amazing thing to watch. The combination of people in the industry telling cold hard truths about development, staffing, costs, and the painstaking work involved juxtaposed against us regular gaming peasants crying about how "we could do it better, cheaper, and more efficiently" is nothing short of spectacular.

The amount of money they were asking for shocked me at first, and then I started reading and thinking about it.... and it makes sense... and it makes me feel slightly ashamed for not realizing how "real world" game development must be. That's the problem with having a hobby you love, and will dabble in for fun: You don't realize how much actual money it takes to do anything high-quality. Hell, I'm in Engineering Management and am still blown away that when you start a bid process for a job and enter a few man-hours into an excel sheet, the estimated fee that it spits out is $800,000+, and that's just for our Electrical Department to do design! There are still 5 other divisions that will submit estimates as well so we can get the total fee. My brain can't even comprehend a dollar value that high. In short, the real world sucks, and I hate for it to invade my Vid-e-ya games. :(

Honest Question Time: So all the money from Skullgirls is apparently frozen because of this lawsuit their publisher is suffering through. So if I buy a copy of Skullgirls do they see the money from it? Or does it get locked in limbo-hell? If I wanted to buy a copy but make sure the money goes to the team, how do I do that? Do we have to wait for the PC version?
 
So they give the modeling and basicly everything to external devs? So what are the 8 people doing that get paye für 10 weeks?

€: Err its a 2d game? The hell are they thinking?
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Sounds like they are technically saying to fans: "Fund the sequel"

Characterwise anyway. Never expected making a character to cost that much though.

Especially since fans of fighters can do it with no cost with the Mugen engine.

I really think the part about assigning hitboxes and hitbox collisions is ridiculous though.
 

mclem

Member
So they give the modeling and basicly everything to external devs? So what are the 8 people doing that get paye für 10 weeks?

All the mechanics. Y'know, all the bits that make all those art assets into an actual playable game character.

€: Err its a 2d game? The hell are they thinking?

Before we go further, is this "It's 2D, therefore it should be cheap! How dare they ask for so much!" or is it "It's 2D, why are they undertaking something that ups their workload so much and increases costs massively"?
 
You would think people would read the posts from those with actual knowledge on the subject and stop spouting off, but no. Every time i come back to this thread is a disaster.
 

honorless

We don't have "get out of jail free" cards, but if we did, she'd have one.
Sounds like they are technically saying to fans: "Fund the sequel"

Characterwise anyway. Never expected making a character to cost that much though.

Especially since fans of fighters can do it with no cost with the Mugen engine.

I really think the part about assigning hitboxes and hitbox collisions is ridiculous though.
Well, they're really only spending $10k on development. I did some Real Garmes Jurnalizm™ overnight and found out the other $140k is going toward licensing Gilgamesh from S-E.

You would think people would read the posts from those with actual knowledge on the subject and stop spouting off, but no. Every time i come back to this thread is a disaster.
Yeah, pretty much—I really wish I could look away. I might have to nuke GAF via hosts file for a day or two.
 

Krackatoa

Member
Sounds like they are technically saying to fans: "Fund the sequel"

Characterwise anyway. Never expected making a character to cost that much though.

Especially since fans of fighters can do it with no cost with the Mugen engine.

I really think the part about assigning hitboxes and hitbox collisions is ridiculous though.

1500 frames.
Hurt boxes must be constrained to the character.
Normal moves, specials and supers must have active hitboxes carefully placed to spec.
Normal moves, specials and supers must have hurt boxes carefully placed to spec.
You have other incidentals like block-distances and throw boxes.

After testing, if a move isn't connecting correctly on the character in question, either the move or the character must be altered.

It's a lot of work, and I would assume has to be done under the supervision of the lead designer, or by someone who already knows their way around fighting games, ergo, you're probably paying for expertise.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
1500 frames.
Hurt boxes must be constrained to the character.
Normal moves, specials and supers must have active hitboxes carefully placed to spec.
Normal moves, specials and supers must have hurt boxes carefully placed to spec.
You have other incidentals like block-distances and throw boxes.

After testing, if a move isn't connecting correctly on the character in question, either the move or the character must be altered.

It's a lot of work, and I would assume has to be done under the supervision of the lead designer, or by someone who already knows their way around fighting games, ergo, you're probably paying for expertise.

Makes sense. So in a sense they are asking for money so they can acquire outsourced help on development more or less?

Well, they're really only spending $10k on development. I did some Real Garmes Jurnalizm™ overnight and found out the other $140k is going toward licensing Gilgamesh from S-E.

Holy crap. Where?

Sure they are
 

VariantX

Member
Sounds like they are technically saying to fans: "Fund the sequel"

Characterwise anyway. Never expected making a character to cost that much though.

Especially since fans of fighters can do it with no cost with the Mugen engine.

I really think the part about assigning hitboxes and hitbox collisions is ridiculous though.

It costs nothing because most of what's on mugen consists of sprite edits and rips from other games. The mugen engine is also bare bones as hell and can't do half the stuff the skull girls engine can. Last I checked, the engine didnt support tag ins and out nor did It support sprite scaling either.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
It costs nothing because most of what's on mugen consists of sprite edits and rips from other games. The mugen engine is also bare bones as hell and can't do half the stuff the skull girls engine can. Last I checked, the engine didnt support tag ins and out nor did It support sprite scaling either.

Then that is indeed different.
 

honorless

We don't have "get out of jail free" cards, but if we did, she'd have one.
Holy crap. Where?

Sure they are
Since you honestly have less than zero idea of what goes into this given that you cite Mugen as an acceptable comparison, I strongly suggest you read at least the past few pages of this topic before making another post.

In particular: RagingSpaniard's breakdown, Ravidrath's comments (as posted by wildfire and myself), Keikaku's anecdote...there are plenty more, but really, just...enlighten yourself. Please.
 

demidar

Member
1500 frames.
Hurt boxes must be constrained to the character.
Normal moves, specials and supers must have active hitboxes carefully placed to spec.
Normal moves, specials and supers must have hurt boxes carefully placed to spec.
You have other incidentals like block-distances and throw boxes.

After testing, if a move isn't connecting correctly on the character in question, either the move or the character must be altered.

It's a lot of work, and I would assume has to be done under the supervision of the lead designer, or by someone who already knows their way around fighting games, ergo, you're probably paying for expertise.

Then you've got to balance the size and transience of the hitbox with the amount of damage it can do (Is the character a glass cannon? How much of a glass cannon?), the coverage or range of the hitbox (Can it be used as anti-air? Can it hit crouched characters?), qualities of the attack (Can it wall-bounce? Should it hit OTG?), in consideration of the character's other moves (Does the character have a lot of cross-ups? Range? Projectiles? Superior air control or maneuverability? Capable of teleporting?), vulnerabilities based on the power of the attack which hit-box is a function of, etc.

I imagine that stuff is done in-house.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Since you honestly have less than zero idea of what goes into this given that you cite Mugen as an acceptable comparison, I strongly suggest you read at least the past few pages of this topic before making another post.

In particular: RagingSpaniard's breakdown, Ravidrath's comments (as posted by wildfire and myself), Keikaku's anecdote...there are plenty more, but really, just...enlighten yourself. Please.

Sir you mentioned GILGAMESH. You got me all excited. Don't let me down now. Even if you were lying.

I understand the "why" it costs that much, but I still find it ridiculous from my point of view, doesn't mean I'm right.
 

cRIPticon

Member
Noogy, RagingSpaniard and me are all coming from a position of knowledge and saying that, yes, these numbers are extremely reasonable. Your initial statement was a completely irrelevant strawman of a question that posed a ridiculous hypothetical that seemed to ignore at least 3 posts that directly answer the question of how very reasonable these numbers. It shouldn't be a surprise to you that people don't get what you're asking or why.

As for Sui Generis there are any number of factors that affect the cost. Here are a few:
  • Engine was already developed and had basic implementation of physics good to go. Sans engine development costs, most of what you'll be paying for are art assets and 3D art assets are far, far easier to create and animate than 2D ones in almost all cases.
  • Quite a bit of what Sui Generis is promising is essentially coming down to extensive scripting which, while it is a lot of work, seems to be one of the core areas of their engine design. Diverse NPC behaviors, open-ended story, etc. are all generally not something that has anything to do with increased art assets. Additionally, while it's stated that the world will be open world, it remains to be seen how different and original it will look. Nothing I see there looks very artistically demanding. There's a lot of heavy use of repeating texture and an extremely limited color palette from what I can see.
  • Having an engine with dynamic physics, support for interactive environments, dynamic lighting and shadows and what looks like dynamic animation (it looks quite rough if it's not dynamic) already developed before the Kickstarter saves a lot of cost. Especially the bit about the animation. Compared to 2D animation which has to be hand drawn costs will be lower.

EDIT: Just read the post by Tekno that it had been in development for a year. Yeah, that'll help.

Another possibility is that Sui Generis just didn't ask for enough money to cover the real costs. It's a mistake that happens more often than not. As for the Skullgirls cost breakdown, that looks realistic to me. Most people that don't work in creative industries just don't understand how much money it takes to do professional level work. Sure, every once in a while someone does something amazing from their garage and is truly inspired, professional work. 95% of the time, it takes teams of professionals to bring out product/creative, on schedule, for a product.

Not the same space, but in the world of advertising, for example, to purchase 3 photos, shot for purpose, the RTU for print only for 3 years may run you $140K. For three photos to use in print materials, no video. The costs are in concept development, equipment rentals, location fees, talent, makeup/wardrobe, director, production crew, insurance, talent rights/royalties, re-touching, inking, formatting. Doing professional level work in media today is expensive.

Sir you mentioned GILGAMESH. You got me all excited. Don't let me down now. Even if you were lying.

I understand the "why" it costs that much, but I still find it ridiculous from my point of view, doesn't mean I'm right.

If understand why, you would not find it ridiculous. Surprising? Yes. Expensive? Yes. But not ridiculous.
 
Top Bottom