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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
It's like I explained before, when you step through one of those doors, you enter your body from that time. You retain memories but you are entering into what is supposed to exist there. At that point, the physical body is pre-baptism Booker and the mind is player-booker. The person dying is the physical so they did kill pre-baptism Booker. The only people who don't adhere to this are Elizabeth and the twins. Elizabeth because she is like a god now and the twins because they seem to be a special case for some reason.

I think the Lutece's are a special case because Comstock killed them while they were in their time travel machine.

They seem to be ghosts in the system more so than not, given their records of keeping count of Booker's heads every time, but introducing new choices such as the bird vs cage, introducing the armor vigor, telling Liz to open a tear...

They're basically guiding and re-shaping Booker throughout the course of Infinite (probably based on evidence from other, failed timelines) as to give him the highest chance of success of undoing their and Comstock's damage/atrocities.
 

Moff

Member
It's like I explained before, when you step through one of those doors, you enter your body from that time. You retain memories but you are entering into what is supposed to exist there. At that point, the physical body is pre-baptism Booker and the mind is player-booker. The person dying is the physical so they did kill pre-baptism Booker. The only people who don't adhere to this are Elizabeth and the twins. Elizabeth because she is like a god now and the twins because they seem to be a special case for some reason.

but there are always several bookers walking around through the entire game. most obviously at the end. I just dont see the original pre-choice booker killed off there. although how you explain it is the only way that makes halfway sense. it would just have been nice if the game would explain it like that, too.
 
I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around how the Luteces got Booker to go to Columbia. Was it after he gave Anna to Comstock? If so, how did they approach him?
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Unfortunately, the table is still strewn with the same racing forms that were in earlier scenes, so if we're going off of what's on the table, he might still be in debt regardless of the outcome. Check out the end of THIS VIDEO to see the table.

Ah crap. I thought I didn't see 'em. Well, that's settled then
 

jhawk6

Member
I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around how the Luteces got Booker to go to Columbia. Was it after he gave Anna to Comstock? If so, how did they approach him?

The ending explicitly shows you this very scene. Lutece's open a tear right into his apartment and pull him on a rocky shore where he loses his memory and wrongly fills in the blanks about wiping his debt and the Lettuces run with it.
 

rinker

Member
Why do some people refer to it as an infinite 'loop'? When I think of 'infinite loops', I think of more like the story of loopers (older person sent back in time to interact with younger person, younger person grows up to become older person who is sent back in time, etc.). In this story, there is no loop (older person sent back in time to interact with younger person, younger person does NOT grow up to become older person [since the interaction happens after the baptism, booker wont grow up to become comstock])

So what gives? The infinite part I thought was about infinite number of combinations of variables, but I've seen multiple references to loops.
 
The ending explicitly shows you this very scene. Lutece's open a tear right into his apartment and pull him on a rocky shore where he loses his memory and wrongly fills in the blanks about wiping his debt and the Lettuces run with it.

Fuck, you're right. Completely forgot about that scene.
 

Guess Who

Banned
Why do some people refer to it as an infinite 'loop'? When I think of 'infinite loops', I think of more like the story of loopers (older person sent back in time to interact with younger person, younger person grows up to become older person who is sent back in time, etc.). In this story, there is no loop (older person sent back in time to interact with younger person, younger person does NOT grow up to become older person [since the interaction happens after the baptism, booker wont grow up to become comstock])

So what gives? The infinite part I thought was about infinite number of combinations of variables, but I've seen multiple references to loops.

I think some people are interpreting it as Booker being stuck in an infinite loop repeating the story until he gets it right (rather than the references to multiple Bookers being because there's infinitely many different Bookers in different universes going through similar stories). Which I agree is not what the story was going for.
 
So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...
 

Guess Who

Banned
So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...

That's how I interpret it, yeah.
 

DatDude

Banned
Noticed something neat on my second playthrough.

The Veni, Vedi Vigor Machines

In latin means: I came, I saw, and usually ends with Vici ( I CONQUERED).

Here, they just have "I came", and "I saw". Never conquered.

Something small, but still neat.

Could refer to the infinite loop theory.
 

Sorian

Banned
but there are always several bookers walking around through the entire game. most obviously at the end. I just dont see the original pre-choice booker killed off there. although how you explain it is the only way that makes halfway sense. it would just have been nice if the game would explain it like that, too.

But where are there several bookers in the same dimension/reality? That never happens, the one time it could have Booker was dead there already.

So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...

My only issue with this, is why is he walking through the door and not a tear?

Edit: Don't answer this second part. I'm being dumb, doors are tears :p
 
But where are there several bookers in the same dimension/reality? That never happens, the one time it could have Booker was dead there already.



My only issue with this, is why is he walking through the door and not a tear?

What if the door is the tear? Maybe a tear would have made things a little obvious.
 
So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...

It's funny, because when you think about, every time you die in a video game, it's like an alternate universe where you didn't die at that point, in that way. This game just makes that video gamey thing nobody thinks about literal.
 
I don't see many people bringing up the post credits sequence, and I think it's an interesting point to bring up. Does the fact that you play as Booker after all that happened mean that there's something left after Booker drowned? That somehow at least one variation lived and raised Anna/Elizabeth?
 
but there are always several bookers walking around through the entire game. most obviously at the end. I just dont see the original pre-choice booker killed off there. although how you explain it is the only way that makes halfway sense. it would just have been nice if the game would explain it like that, too.

I interpreted it as Booker walking through the door was your Bookers death (along with the millions of Bookers who travelled across the bridges in the earlier scene/every players Booker). After that all of their memories leapt into pre-baptism Booker's mind when Elizabeth opened up the tear to smother him.

It's the reason why Lin acted as though he was tending to machines which weren't present in the reality he inhabited after he was killed in the other reality. When Elizabeth tears into a reality whilst close to a person who's recently been killed it seems like their memories get carried with her.
 
but there are always several bookers walking around through the entire game. most obviously at the end. I just dont see the original pre-choice booker killed off there. although how you explain it is the only way that makes halfway sense. it would just have been nice if the game would explain it like that, too.

Why does it matter what the other Bookers are doing? The matter of fact is you're the first timeline that has figured out what's going on, and that's what the Luteces aimed to do.
 

Moff

Member
But where are there several bookers in the same dimension/reality? That never happens, the one time it could have Booker was dead there already.
through the whole game.

booker and cormstock are the same person.

additionally, at the end are several bookers walkung around between the lughthouses.

it just doesnt make sense to me that pre-choice booker is killed in the end. is you, player-booker, from the end of the timeline.
 

Jofamo

Member
Hey, why did the Lettuce statue change to Fem Lettuce in the first act?

I'd hazard simply residual Elizabeth powers, just her turning her bear a different colour and tea into coffee. Just a tip off to the player that things aren't quite stable in Columbia with the tears etc.
 

Moff

Member
Why does it matter what the other Bookers are doing? The matter of fact is you're the first timeline that has figured out what's going on, and that's what the Luteces aimed to do.
sure, but they should have killed pre-chouce booker and not the one who figured it all out.
 
sure, but they should have killed pre-chouce booker and not the one who figured it all out.
Sorian already explained how that worked. I don't know how effective it would have been to just have you kill a Booker before you kapoof from existence. Elizabeths drowning you leaves more of an impact.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
Hey, why did the Lettuce statue change to Fem Lettuce in the first act?

I assumed it was Elizabeth reaching out a little bit, I just played the beginning again and you can vaguely hear her voice screaming/singing. Similar to tears open up randomly on Columbia all the time, it's just parts of her power bleeding out.
 

saunderez

Member
It's like I explained before, when you step through one of those doors, you enter your body from that time. You retain memories but you are entering into what is supposed to exist there.
This doesn't make any sense otherwise Booker would inhabit Comstock's body as soon as he entered the same timeline and nothing in the game could've happened as it did.
 

pakkit

Banned
So much attention to detail in this game, just nuts.

Another observation: the preacher who baptises Booker when he gets to Columbia is the same guy (he's blind, look at the eyes) who baptises BookStock at the 'end'. He looks older to me, but I'm not 100%. Is it really him or is it Booker fabricating memories, cobbling together from what he knows?

Also, when you're at the lighthouse it's night. You ascend straight up and it's daytime in Columbia.

I think this alone makes a strong case for all of Columbia being a fabrication of Booker's as he's making new memories. (wish fulfillment)

How deep does this rabbit hole really go?
At the end of the game, look at Booker DeWitt's apartment once you see it in full-blooded color. The deep reds, the ragged wallpaper flowing in the wind - notice a connection? It's the same art direction that drove Columbia.

Columbia is not a real place in Booker's original universe, but it is a "wish fulfillment" in Comstock's reborn world. His sins are atoned because the Chinese boxers he slew, Natives he scalped, and the Irish workers revolt he squashed were all justified by Divine Right. Comstock is an older version of Booker because he is the culmination of Booker's arch; having tried so many doors where he finds himself pitiful and in debt...at last, he turns to salvation, and reinvents himself and creates a world where his inherent evil can prosper. He has traveled in the boots of a thousand DeWitt's - that's how he can know the prophecy, and gaze into the rifts in the future., but as a consequence, it's also why he can't bear a child. How can we condemn Comstock as cruel, when it was Booker who gave away his child? In fact, the only reason Comstock was forced to encage his successor was because Booker tried to snatch Anna back, leaving part of her corporeal self in Booker's dimension (thereby leading to her supernatural powers).

The more I think about the ending...the better the game gets. The Half-Life series, for all of its acclaim, has yet to account for a number of its mysteries. Infinity answers so many questions, but also leaves plenty of room for reinterpretation. That said, I don't expect to see a "Bioshock 3? 4?" anytime soon.
 

pantsmith

Member
I think some people are interpreting it as Booker being stuck in an infinite loop repeating the story until he gets it right (rather than the references to multiple Bookers being because there's infinitely many different Bookers in different universes going through similar stories). Which I agree is not what the story was going for.

You could also assume that in an infinite universe, with infinite possibilities, the player's Booker finds his peace, but other Bookers (played by other players) are still trying to find theirs. Or haven't even begun their journey yet.

Not to mention if

Spirit of Jazz said:
I interpreted it as Booker walking through the door was your Bookers death (along with the millions of Bookers who travelled across the bridges in the earlier scene/every players Booker).

is the case, there are an infinite number of Bookers who didn't even make it. And another infinite amount of them who become the villain. Etc.
 
It's like I explained before, when you step through one of those doors, you enter your body from that time. You retain memories but you are entering into what is supposed to exist there. At that point, the physical body is pre-baptism Booker and the mind is player-booker. The person dying is the physical so they did kill pre-baptism Booker. The only people who don't adhere to this are Elizabeth and the twins. Elizabeth because she is like a god now and the twins because they seem to be a special case for some reason.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but by this logic, shouldn't we have entered Comstock's body when Booker traveled to the Columbia timeline?

So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...

I always go for the simplest explanation in these scenarios. I think the Luteces' always send the 'same' Booker, i.e. "welp, this one died let's go back to his timeline, and send him again". If it was a different booker every time, I don't think the stuff with constants ('he doesn't row', coin flip always heads) would be quite as pertinent.
 
So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...

lol it just blew your mind again didn't it? :p I started to think of that too last night and I was like "Holy shit..."
 
Last time I was so affected by an ending was Mass Effect 3, and that was for all the wrong reasons. Fuck the haters, the Sessler review did not gush at all. He hit everything spot on.
 

Meia

Member
Is it one reality where there was a Booker that didn't get baptized, or many?


The way I interpreted it was what others have said. The split happened with him walking away, and that version has the baby. I think in those versions, that's where the male Lutece comes from, while the female one comes from the other line. She experiments with the idea of the tears, then sees one where a male version of her exists. Maybe by digging around that one and bringing him over, that's when the Comstock sees the other Booker that had a kid. Seeing this, probably thinks it's a holy hand showing him his own child, so he has to have her. Gets kid, Letuce's start regretting what they've done, killed by own machine, now "trapped" in the inner workings, see the only way to atone for what they've done is to also get Booker to atone for what he did. Only in that fashion can their wrong be righted.


Guessing that what we see post credits is Booker, as in the player one that has all of his memories of what he's gone through, back in his apartment, and finds the crib in next room as we quickly cut to back. Obviously this was shown because the God Liz is still alive, and decided to throw her "dad" a bone, as he made the right choice in killing Comstock before any harm was done to her. The bird or the cage: To be free, or to be jailed. Would love if you only get this scene if you chose the bird necklace near the beginning, but probably shows no matter what you chose.
 

DatDude

Banned
lol it just blew your mind again didn't it? :p I started to think of that too last night and I was like "Holy shit..."

hooo-leee

shit.

131025987471-baww.gif
 
I have a feeling post-credits Booker is one of the timelines where Booker gave Anna away, and she reappears when Comstock is finally killed, therefore eliminating anything that happened with Comstock and the Luteces.
 
Is it one reality where there was a Booker that didn't get baptized, or many?

there are many versions of everything in the Bioshock worlds.
There isn't one Comstock or one Booker, there are millions of them, so a million Comstock's got baptised but all their outcomes after that were different and a million Bookers that didn't get baptised that all played out differently too. An Infinite number of them if you will

I still don't get why they chose THAT booker though. I mean surely there were others in almost similar situations than him given the probability of how many there are
 

DatDude

Banned
Last time I was so affected by an ending was Mass Effect 3, and that was for all the wrong reasons. Fuck the haters, the Sessler review did not gush at all. He hit everything spot on.

Pretty much.

I knew he was excited for the game previously, so I honestly thought this was pure hyperbolic bs on his part.

I mean, I thought, yes it'll probably be a good ending..but not China Town good.

I think he was dead on. It's definitely a major mile stone for this industry.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
So wait, every time you die in-game alone without Elizabeth, you find yourself in his apartment again. Does that mean we're another Booker from another timeline forming another version of the Columbia journey until he gets it right, aka without dying? Fuck...

I guess I saw that more as Booker's 'near-death' experiences showing him a glimpse into what really went down as he draws closer to 'freeing' Liz, but that's certainly something I didn't think of.

I don't know, though, some of those leaps are a bit far. That would explain some of the more bizarre scenes like your suddenly 'appearing' in the garden after the pastor drowns/baptizes you in the beginning, but Liz mentions that she basically revived you after you 'drown' by falling off the skyline into the Bay island. Plus, that kind of 'separation' into different bookers without any concrete evidence that you've just 'replayed' that whole section/game up to that point without any conscious knowledge of the switch seems odd, especially because the 'narrative' is basically a continuous sequence during the blackout periods.

Also, as for the mental 'transference' in to a separate body, one possible explanation is that since Booker's physical body was killed during the choice scene and that he must be 'outside' of time to do so, when reality re-asserts itself after the excision of the baptism event, the player Booker's mind snaps into place in the new, no-Comstock reality, hence his waking up and being worried about Anna's (not?) being there.

Would love if you only get this scene if you chose the bird necklace near the beginning, but probably shows both.

People have reported that it shows up no matter what. I think locking the player into a choice like that so early on without any real knowledge of the underlying issues would be really quite mean. Infinite has the same 'illusion' of choice as Bioshock's "would you kindly" directions, but also includes small non-consequential choices to further enforce that image of the illusion of choice, since if you replay events, the same basic premise occurs with only minor variants.
 
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