XANDER CAGE
Member
Haha, wow. I wonder if this game will keep giving cool little nuggets like this, or if we've already combed it through.
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Haha, wow. I wonder if this game will keep giving cool little nuggets like this, or if we've already combed it through.
Pretty sure Comstock's plan is for Elizabeth to cleanse humanity in countless worlds after the 1984 NY attack in her own world - with the Siphon removed and her coming into her true power, she'd be a threat to multiple universes. So the Luteces seriously fucked things up for the multiverse and Robert in particular felt terrible about it, enough to convince Rosalind to help him try to fix things.
Went looking through my Voxophones for the exact wording to no avail, might have been a sound clip played over a PA in one of the later areas. Anyone else happen to have the quote handy?
Honestly at times booker seems even worse than Comstock. He doesn't care about the Vox Populi and the only reason he is willing to help them is to get the airship back...I'm rather surprised he didn't decide to just go slaughter them and try to get the airship back that way. There is that scene where you have a large overview on Columbia and how it all is burning and in shambles...I don't think the end really justifies the means in this case or surely there must have been a better way to go about fixing it all rather than go on a mad rampage and kill hundreds of people.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know that they can't, but the audiologs state that male Lutece feels guilty for bringing Anna over and causing this whole mess and wants to set it right so it never happened. Female Lutece isn't that concerned, and moreover, she believes it's a foolish exercise that can't be righted.
Basically, they represent the two different interpretations of the ending: Either you break the cycle and kill Comstock across all universes (male Lutece), or you only kill one Comstock and the cycle repeats ad infinitum (female Lutece).
This game is fucking brilliant.
Wind's Howling
Member
But in the end it does not matter because all those people who died, did not exist in the first place. No Comstock, No Columbia, No citizens.
SoulUnison
Banned
This really bugs me, honestly.
If we walked in on a guy laying dead on the floor from gunshots, a pistol discarded across the room, then maybe I could buy the Letuce siblings were responsible.
But, i just can't see either of them tying a guy up, putting a bag over his head, and then going after him with a knife and a chisel. That's some cold-blooded Saw-type shit. I could see them doing something quick and dirty because they know they *have* to, but I can't see them doing something so...deliberately malevolent.
I don't really see any other explanations for how the lighthouse keeper ends up dead, though, so I have to settle that the siblings murdered him just... gruesomely. It really kind of messes up their characters a bit, for me.
lastflowers
Banned
I think it would be a more interesting tale if mrs Comstock is the same woman as Anna's mother. It doesn't really matter, in fact the mystery is more interesting to me--but it add an interesting texture to the whole anna-lady Comstock relationship and plot reveals.
I am wondering if that was part of Booker's narrative his mind created when he jumped timelines.
Something else I wonder. The story focused on the Baptism as the turning point between the two Booker. It's essentially a constant with two variables. In one, he accepts and becomes a religion nut bend on the idea of race and the superiority of the white men. In the other, he refuses and becomes a wreck saddled with gambling and drinking problems.
I feel like the real key here are the Luteces twins. Basically, if you take them out of the equation, you end up with a crazy lunatic without the floating city/powers from the tear. That doesn't sound so bad to me.
I feel like the real key here are the Luteces twins. Basically, if you take them out of the equation, you end up with a crazy lunatic without the floating city/powers from the tear. That doesn't sound so bad to me.
It probably doesn't hurt that they want to spook Booker, so a couple extra props get a bit of extra mileage. How many times does he say that he doesn't want to owe money to these "bad people" despite not knowing who they are.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
If Liz kills you as a baby, how come you're an adult looking for Anna at the end scene?
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Oh they probably do, just a different life.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
What? lol I think you didn't get the ending.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
Didn't Liz drown you at the end? You're supposed to be a baby at that time, no?
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
So you ultimately stole all those people of their lives, made a city in the sky not happen and all that future technology(that probably saved countless lives and raised living standards) never happened either.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
But you still died
The One Who Knocks
Member
If they succeed he will have never died in the first place. We know he was loyal to Comstock and planning to kill the False Shepard via this:
Perhaps the reason for the brutality (although do we know he was actually tortured? There's a hole on the bag so maybe he was shot, the knife and chisel were then left there having been dipped in blood or used post mortem) is because in another universe Booker simply went to Paris with Elizabeth due to not being adequetly scared.
rohlfinator
Member
Yes, this. I think it's a quote from Liz toward the end of the game, describing what the evil version of herself will do.
I was kind of thinking that the only "created" memories were the black-and-white scenes in his NY office, but I don't really have anything to confirm that.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
It still happens, just different hence the rapture.
I'm sure it's been explained, but I'm not sure what to search for... But how is the player, as Dewitt, surviving death when they get drowned by the priest after arriving at Colombia... And then after being killed by the Songbird in the water... etc. Are the twins bringing the player back to that same moment in time? Or are you just picking up in an alternate reality where that death didn't happen (i.e. the priest didn't drown you, the Songbird didn't kill you in the water/beach, etc.)
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
She just prevents your "rebirth" as Comstock. Booker still exist.
OriginofHysteria
Banned
I took that part as the lighthouse keeper was there to prevent Booker from getting to Columbia and maybe it was the Lutece's that killed him? Unlikely but thats a theory.
Also, I just got the "he doesn't row" part in the beginning of the game. A second playthrough definitely makes you catch things with regards to the story that you may have dismissed earlier.
Ok I'm never gonna get through this whole thread so I'm just gonna post some thoughts here and keep it moving with the rest of you guys.
-One thing about the levels to me that stuck out were several locations that had seemingly split paths that just lead to the same spot. Nothing really major, and probably not intentional but I just keep remembering coming to a wall and being able to go left or right. Kinda played into the whole option of how even with choice the outcome was always the same. Again not something important or even novel to video games but something that just stuck out in my mind.
-Reading around the net people seem confused about many of the well explained issues brought about in they game. As someone who spent my first playthrough running around levels searching for Voxophones and listening to npc dialog much of the plot seemed pretty well established to the point I knew where I was headed just not how (awesome it would be once) I get there.
-The most confusing part to me comes during the fink episode, and for a pretty good reason. Alot of the magic of whats going on felt pretty rushed in how it was explained. Booker states how he couldn't really trust daisy, so when she heel turns it felt to me she used you as a martyr for her cause and not that another tear had been opened to a time when booker works with/for the vox p. I guess I just wish there were more downtime moments which leads kind of to my next point...
-As much as I love this game, as I love mind fuck stories, I think Infinite would have been a much better game had things moved much slower. The early moments during the baptism was such a beautifully done moment that it makes you go from a tense situation that plays on what you remember that brings you to something so calm and serene to me those are what BI does well. I wish the npcs had as much character to them as Liz because the little dialog cues were really well done to me, and even when I enjoyed blasting fools with vigor and bullets it was only to get to that next little section of city exploration.
It kind of pissed me off how some areas were pretty much fight to explore such as the docks where tresspasing became an automatic kill everyone just to take in the little things.
- I'm interested in how the DLC will expand what we see here although my worry is that anything we do becomes kind of null and void. How can you make something meaningful if the ending we currently have will make it null and void in the universe we have been presented? Will we instead see more of how fucked up everything is for the average population? Maybe Fink and or his brother? And what of the Luteces? I read up on the Hamlet characters that they seem to reference and it would be interesting to have them pop up and do what they do best (talk timey wimey metaphysical shit). Really I just want more from this world.
I have more stuff but most is just theories many of you have spouted and things I want to look for on my second playthrough to really articulate my thoughts. I'm just glad this game exists and patiently wait for whats next.
-One thing about the levels to me that stuck out were several locations that had seemingly split paths that just lead to the same spot. Nothing really major, and probably not intentional but I just keep remembering coming to a wall and being able to go left or right. Kinda played into the whole option of how even with choice the outcome was always the same. Again not something important or even novel to video games but something that just stuck out in my mind.
-Reading around the net people seem confused about many of the well explained issues brought about in they game. As someone who spent my first playthrough running around levels searching for Voxophones and listening to npc dialog much of the plot seemed pretty well established to the point I knew where I was headed just not how (awesome it would be once) I get there.
-The most confusing part to me comes during the fink episode, and for a pretty good reason. Alot of the magic of whats going on felt pretty rushed in how it was explained. Booker states how he couldn't really trust daisy, so when she heel turns it felt to me she used you as a martyr for her cause and not that another tear had been opened to a time when booker works with/for the vox p. I guess I just wish there were more downtime moments which leads kind of to my next point...
-As much as I love this game, as I love mind fuck stories, I think Infinite would have been a much better game had things moved much slower. The early moments during the baptism was such a beautifully done moment that it makes you go from a tense situation that plays on what you remember that brings you to something so calm and serene to me those are what BI does well. I wish the npcs had as much character to them as Liz because the little dialog cues were really well done to me, and even when I enjoyed blasting fools with vigor and bullets it was only to get to that next little section of city exploration.
It kind of pissed me off how some areas were pretty much fight to explore such as the docks where tresspasing became an automatic kill everyone just to take in the little things.
- I'm interested in how the DLC will expand what we see here although my worry is that anything we do becomes kind of null and void. How can you make something meaningful if the ending we currently have will make it null and void in the universe we have been presented? Will we instead see more of how fucked up everything is for the average population? Maybe Fink and or his brother? And what of the Luteces? I read up on the Hamlet characters that they seem to reference and it would be interesting to have them pop up and do what they do best (talk timey wimey metaphysical shit). Really I just want more from this world.
I have more stuff but most is just theories many of you have spouted and things I want to look for on my second playthrough to really articulate my thoughts. I'm just glad this game exists and patiently wait for whats next.
Wind's Howling
Member
But even if they did, killing a person in Columbia and then going back in time to prevent the Baptism to succeed will remove Columbia from existence and thus letting those people live.
That is actually what I meant to say.
Another question:
Why in the world did Booker let himself get baptised before he could enter Columbia? He neglected it where everything started(ended), yet he easily said yes there.
The One Who Knocks
Member
First, the priest never actually drowned him and similarly Songbird doesn't kill you at the water because of the water pressure. However, when Booker dies in a universe the Luteces simply pick another Booker, do everything exactly the same and then change the minute thing that led to his death. EDIT: Actually, I understand what you mean now, it flashes to the door afterwards. I think this is just his memory of what happened when the Luteces contacted him as opposed to his death.
EDIT:
That's exactly what I'm saying happened. In the first timeline, Booker was murdered in the lighthouse by the keeper (as he was warned by Comstock via the note visible in the previous message). The second (and every concurrent time) they got another Booker and murdered the lighthouse keeper pre-emptively. The comment I was responding to questioned the brutality of the event. I was countering it with his eventual non-existence if the Luteces succeed in resetting the timeline and, in addition, that perhaps the brutality was necessary to prevent Booker from simply going to Paris with Elizabeth.
After the credits, there a 10 second scene. It's on youtube.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I am wondering this as well, especially the baptism once you get to Columbia. The priest 'drowns' you, and you're back in your office, just like when you die in-game and Liz isn't around, only this time you also see NY burning. Why does Booker get this vision? It doesn't make sense. Comstock saw this through a tear, but he didn't LIVE it, so it doesn't seem like it's one of Comstock's memories he's inheriting. Did Booker die during that baptism, only to be replaced by the Lutece's next Booker?
Wind's Howling
Member
Different booker, different scenario. Just as Booker #122 was the one who changed everything, Booker #123 is the one that lives its new alternative lifestyle.
oh. I thought returning to your office was death/purgatory, so each time you went there and then returned to the game, you were carrying on as Booker in another universe.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Booker/Comstock was a soldier in the US army during the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre. He was invited to be baptised in the aftermath. One Booker ran from the baptism, had Anna, and become an alcoholic gambler. The other Booker accepted the baptism, because a pious zealot known as Comstock, and founded Columbia.
On another note, we've always considered Comstock's "prophecies" as simply shit he saw through the Luteces twins device. Was this explicitly explained via voxaphones? I was under the impression that the Luteces' space/time tear device did not come into being until Columbia was already founded and Comstock was considered a prophet, and was then used by Comstock for greater insight into the world as well as nab Anna.
I say this because it would explain Comstock's original visions. At the end of the game when Elizabeth confronts Booker (twice, I believe) with the post-massacre baptism, would this not cause a minor convergence of memories? Yes, it's in the "past", but Booker had been taken there symbolically and had seen all the "prophecies" in their real form. He'd been to Columbia. He'd seen New York on fire. And he knew Elizabeth. Being in the same place/time/universe as original Booker, symbolically as Booker, would bestow confusing memories interpreted as "prophecies" on baptised Booker, granting him "visions" of a city in the sky.
It's circular.
rohlfinator
Member
Yeah, that part doesn't make a lot of sense. I suppose you could handwave it by saying that he's getting a glimpse of a memory from his future/alternate self that sees New York burning.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Sorry, I went back and editted it as I realised you were talking to the mandatory flashes due to the above messages (following my post). Ok, so you're absolutely correct in what you say. Returning to the office scene is a new Booker playing through the game doing the exact same to wherever you were. However, those specific places, I do not think were to show deaths (although it is possible). I think they were just to 'fill in' Booker's memory slowly over the course of the game as opposed to showing it all at once. The main reason I don't believe he dies is because we always see the perfect version of events and we always know what changes occur (as the deaths we experience are player-controlled and we play from before he dies) when we regain control. In saying that though, there is a possibility he dies at both events but we never see the change so I find it difficult to accept that he does actually die as opposed to just showing us his memory (coincidentally we see his/Comstock's memory of the burning city immediately after the initial baptism which I feel lends further crecedence to him surviving both events).
EDIT: At the above, Comstock saw the vision before Booker was brought into his universe. As such, it becomes a shared supressed memory. It was likely remembered very quickly due to the significance of that vision to Comstock.
EDIT: At Lovely Salsa, Perhaps this will help explain it to you better in a visual format: http://www.abload.de/img/bioshockinfinitetimelr6eob.png In simple terms, there is one Booker. Booker attends the baptism, this always happens. There must always be this baptism if Booker survived Wounded Knee. There are two choices, accept absolution or reject it. At this moment, there is a fork in the universe which become two seperate set of universes. In one set, Booker accepts baptism and becomes Comstock. In the other set, Booker reject it and remains Booker. This means half of the infinite set (itself an infinite set) become Booker, the other half (also an infinite set) become Comstock.
symphonask
Member
He has a near death experience, I guess. That's why he sees his office again. He even remarks about the priest almost drowning him after he comes to.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
Yeah see, this is confusing. It all started with 2 bookers?
Comstock mentions visions from the archangel. Did he have genuine visions, or was "archangel" referring to Columbia, and the rips he enountered?
Klendathu Club Owner
Member
I finished it today and the story and especially the ending were pretty cool. Totally bonkers and ridiculous but in the best way! Not every story needs to make sense to be fun. My favroite bit of the ending was the short return to Rapture. An awesome tip of the hat (though I wouldn't read too much into it plotwise).
Two things about Columbia confused me though. I know it's a floating city but still:
1. The Wounded Knee Massacre took place in late December 1890. And by 1893 Columbia is built and Comstock/Booker has rallied a devout cult/sect around himself? Quite a feat. And where did he get all that money from? Fink? That dude didn't even believe in Comstock and jumped on the bandwagon for the profit. He doesn't seem like someone who'd invest into building Columbia.
2. The society of Columbia seemingly consists of Christian fundamentalists (at least it's led by one) yet there doesn't seem to be a single bible, church (except for the strange "baptism temple" in the beginning, which fits Comstock's believes) or cross in all of Columbia. That bothered me quite a bit once I noticed it. Irrational probably didn't want to step on too many toes^^
But other thant that Columbia was just beautifu during day time. So colorful and vibrant! The levels around Fink's factories and at night didn't impress me nearly as much. And the chaos at Emporia reminded me a bit too much of Rapture. All in all, Rapture was a more memorable setting to me though.
Two things about Columbia confused me though. I know it's a floating city but still:
1. The Wounded Knee Massacre took place in late December 1890. And by 1893 Columbia is built and Comstock/Booker has rallied a devout cult/sect around himself? Quite a feat. And where did he get all that money from? Fink? That dude didn't even believe in Comstock and jumped on the bandwagon for the profit. He doesn't seem like someone who'd invest into building Columbia.
2. The society of Columbia seemingly consists of Christian fundamentalists (at least it's led by one) yet there doesn't seem to be a single bible, church (except for the strange "baptism temple" in the beginning, which fits Comstock's believes) or cross in all of Columbia. That bothered me quite a bit once I noticed it. Irrational probably didn't want to step on too many toes^^
But other thant that Columbia was just beautifu during day time. So colorful and vibrant! The levels around Fink's factories and at night didn't impress me nearly as much. And the chaos at Emporia reminded me a bit too much of Rapture. All in all, Rapture was a more memorable setting to me though.
The constant was going to the baptism after Wounded Knee.
The variable was the choice at that baptism.
If there are unlimited universes then there will be infinite amounts of Bookers choosing to become Comstock and to found Coumbia, and infinite amounts of Bookers choosing to reject the baptism and have Elizabeth.
He was just lying, the prophecies are all futures he had looking through the tears.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
One booker becomes Comstock. The other are bookers which never became Comstock in denying the baptism. They are brought to the Comstock universe through the twins.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Good points, especially the incredibly short amount of time between the baptism and Columbia rising seems like it requires some mental gymnastics to make it fit.
The one thing that disappointed me about the setting is that there are simply too many indoors areas. Not quite enough areas that make you feel "Holy shit, I'm in a floating fucking city." In fact, very few after you get Liz out of Memorial Island.
ThaiGrocer
Member
nine nine nine
what is that referring to?
what is that referring to?
The game 999? They have some plot similarities? (loose similarities)
ThaiGrocer
Member
Maybe that's it.
Apophenia Overload
Member
Honestly, while Columbia is a great setting, it's not a very great alternate history. It has a lot of the tropes and trappings of the era, but there's not a lot of historical basis for the factions portrayed. And before someone says "suspend your believability for a game with quantum magic and flying cities, hurr hurr", I'm not saying this as a knock against the game. Its portrayal of the 1910s is based on current popular imagination of what that era seemed like. Boaters and long swimming outfits and barbershop quartets. But Comstock's faction doesn't really resemble any of the Second Great Awakening-type religious revival movements of the day, nor do the Vox resemble the Socialist Party or the Populists. It's just all broad strokes of what Ken Levine imagines what the time period to be like.
So I'm just saying, don't think too hard about the historical portrayal of Columbia. It's as fantasy as Rapture is.
Mushroomer25
Member
I feel like the baptism at the entrance to Columbia is just an aspect of Comstock's worldview. The bapism absolved him of sin, and gave him a new start in life. It's natural he would force his followers to do the same. As for the premonition, I supposed that was Old Elizabeth's doing.
indigo-cyclops
Member
It's an era that is utterly fascinating as emerging modernity continued to evolve. Would love to know more about it historically.
The music of the time is some of my favorite. When will long swimming outfits come back, anyway? I'm ready for 'em.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
But how does drowning the one denying the baptism solve the problem?
jacksepticeye
Member
Also note the bell code at the lighthouse at the very start. you ring the first bell once then the second one twice then the third one twice. Tallying 1-2-2