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[Ninja Moomin]

this thread is getting.... embarrassing.



Everyone needs to chill out and wait a week...

And perhaps remember:

All we will have seen until e3 is tightly controlled PR showcases for either PS4 or Infinity... the real verdict will be when people get their hands on the systems on the show floor at e3... we won't know how well everything is coming together until then.

 

[iMax]

According to who? Just off the top of your head? Because when they annonced the LA studio they mostly talked about transmedia experiences like that Seasame Street Kinect thing. That's also who's running point on their TV production deals, so unless we're counting a revival of the show Heroes a "core game" they shouldn't be bolded. Xbox Live Productions is also mostly responsible for original video programming, too, but they do occasionally make shitty licensed XBLA games like Tennorman's Revenge. Strike them, as well. And Kids & Lifestyle? Are you joking? They're supposedly working on a fitness title. Good Science? From the maker of Kinectimals? Big Park, the Joy Ride people? And speaking of Sesame Street, you've included the maker of that game, Soho for some reason. Your bolding here is a joke.

Realistically MS have the following internal studios working on core IP for next gen:

343
Turn 10
Lionhead
Black Tusk
Victoria
Platform Next
Maybe a team in Redmond

Only three of those have a track record to look at, so to pretend like we know MS first party can hold their own against Sony's is a bit premature, if not completely daft.



Anyone can go to Wikipedia and start adding up employment estimates. Even if you assume each of the new MS studios is over 200 people, SCEWW is way bigger.

I suggest you go look at some of the websites for the studios I mentioned, particularly under Careers.

 

[ShinobiFist]

I can't believe someone is actually saying MS has a bigger first party, lol. And is actually including their "Dashboard" developers into the fold, amazing.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I can't believe someone is actually saying MS has a bigger first party, lol. And is actually including their "Dashboard" developers into the fold, amazing.

As of right now they do have more first party studios... whether or not that translates into more games we won't know until later.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Microsoft Studios – Los Angeles – Next generation core cinematic title

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Games_Studio

Yeah, I saw that on Wikipedia, but it's contrary to everything MS said the studio was for when they opened it. And their career site doesn't indicate anything but media mogul types, either, last I looked. I have no idea where the rumor they were working on a core game for next gen came from.

 

[iMax]

Yeah, I saw that on Wikipedia, but it's contrary to everything MS said the studio was for when they opened it. And their career site doesn't indicate anything but media mogul types, either, last I looked. I have no idea where the rumor they were working on a core game for next gen came from.

This is quite a good article summarising what the studios are rumoured to be working on.

 

[travisbickle]

One question:

aren't "Sony Japan" a huge studio that works with multiple smaller teams (internal and external) to produce games? More like a publisher than a studio?

 

[dragonbane]

Not sure where you're getting this...

List

So, Microsoft has more studios, more IP, and better rated games.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

While MS has more studios, many of them are rather small or relatively new and unproven. Let's look at the numbers:

Sony Computer Entertainment:

Naughty Dog - 240+
Santa Monica - 200+
San Diego - N/A
Foster City - N/A
London - 300+
Japan - 400+
Guerrilla, Guerrilla Cambridge - Combined 270+
Evolution - 87+
Media Molecule - 47+
Bend - 60+
Sucker Punch - 120+
Polyphony - 140+
Sony Online Entertainment - 664+


Microsoft Studios:

Rare - 150+
343i - 340+
BigPark - 60+
Black Tusk - 110+
MS Victoria - 100+
MSLA - 150+
MS Redmond - N/A
Platform Next - N/A
Playful - N/A
Skybox - N/A
Turn 10 - 70+
Twisted Pixel - 25+
Good Science - N/A
ConnectedExperiences - N/A
Kids&Lifestyle - N/A
Xbox LIVE Productions - N/A
Lionhead - 200+
Lift London - N/A
Soho - N/A
Press Play - 23+

Some of these studios don't even have a wikipedia page yet. I would say speaking of pure manpower Sony has probably the edge when it comes to first party. They can definitely pump out a lot of titles when they want to and should be able to support both PS3 and PS4.

 

[StuBurns]

One question:

aren't "Sony Japan" a huge studio that works with multiple smaller teams (internal and external) to produce games? More like a publisher than a studio?

They're a studio. Studios can have multiple teams, and work with other developers.

 

[Alx]

Are we going to count how many chairs and pencils each studio owns ? I think it's quite obvious that both brands have more than enough resources to produce first party games. Everything else is a pissing contest.

 

[uncleniccius]

While MS has more studios, many of them are rather small or relatively new and unproven. Let's look at the numbers:

Sony Computer Entertainment:

Naughty Dog - 240+
Santa Monica - 200+
San Diego - N/A
Foster City - N/A
London - 300+
Japan - 400+
Guerrilla, Guerrilla Cambridge - Combined 270+
Evolution - 87+
Media Molecule - 47+
Bend - 60+
Sucker Punch - 120+
Polyphony - 140+
Sony Online Entertainment - 664+


Microsoft Studios:

Rare - 150+
343i - 340+
BigPark - 60+
Black Tusk - 110+
MS Victoria - 100+
MSLA - 150+
MS Redmond - N/A
Platform Next - N/A
Playful - N/A
Skybox - N/A
Turn 10 - 70+
Twisted Pixel - 25+
Good Science - N/A
ConnectedExperiences - N/A
Kids&Lifestyle - N/A
Xbox LIVE Productions - N/A
Lionhead - 200+
Lift London - N/A
Soho - N/A
Press Play - 23+

Some of these studios don't even have a wikipedia page yet. I would say speaking of pure manpower Sony has probably the edge when it comes to first party. They can definitely pump out a lot of titles when they want to and should be able to support both PS3 and PS4.

In the Drive Club thread one of the developers from Evolution said they had around 110 people working for them(?)
Is Sony Santa Monica really that small, I thought it was one of the bigger ones.

Slightly OT, but who are the biggest developer in the world? Am I correct to assume Ubisoft Montreal?

 

[iMax]

While MS has more studios, many of them are rather small or relatively new and unproven. Let's look at the numbers:

Sony Computer Entertainment:

Naughty Dog - 240+
Santa Monica - 200+
San Diego - N/A
Foster City - N/A
London - 300+
Japan - 400+
Guerrilla, Guerrilla Cambridge - Combined 270+
Evolution - 87+
Media Molecule - 47+
Bend - 60+
Sucker Punch - 120+
Polyphony - 140+
Sony Online Entertainment - 664+


Microsoft Studios:

Rare - 150+
343i - 340+
BigPark - 60+
Black Tusk - 110+
MS Victoria - 100+
MSLA - 150+
MS Redmond - N/A
Platform Next - N/A
Playful - N/A
Skybox - N/A
Turn 10 - 70+
Twisted Pixel - 25+
Good Science - N/A
ConnectedExperiences - N/A
Kids&Lifestyle - N/A
Xbox LIVE Productions - N/A
Lionhead - 200+
Lift London - N/A
Soho - N/A
Press Play - 23+

Some of these studios don't even have a wikipedia page yet. I would say speaking of pure manpower Sony has probably the edge when it comes to first party. They can definitely pump out a lot of titles when they want to and should be able to support both PS3 and PS4.

It's not just manpower though. Look at Polyphony and Turn 10. Polyphony have twice as many people on their team, yet Turn 10 have managed to pump out a new Forza title every other year since 2005.

 

[Monty Mole]

As we're on GAF, let's see what GAF's rates the better publisher as voted by members of GAF.

2012: Sony over MS
2011: Sony over MS (MS didn't even rate in the top 10)
2010: Sony over MS

That link also reveals how bad Microsoft's output is quantitative despite having more studios numerically.

Surprised at 2012. Didn't rate Twisted Metal or Starhawk. PS All Stars, LittleBigPlanet Karting and Wonderbook speak for themselves really. Journey was obviously the stand-out game.

In comparison Microsoft published Halo 4 and Forza Horizon, along with games like Spelunky, Fez, Mark of the Ninja, Minecraft and Trials Evolution. Then there was stiff like Nike Kinect and Dance Central 3 which I had less of an interest in.

All subjective of course, but it's not some kind of night and day difference like you're making out, and I'd personally rate MS's publishing output over Sony's for last year. This year I'd obviously give the nod to Sony with TLoU and Beyond still on the way, but it's still early days given we don't know what MS has planned to publish for Durango this year.

 

[iMax]

Slightly OT, but who are the biggest developer in the world? Am I correct to assume Ubisoft Montreal?

Probably. They have over 2,300 employees. It's insane.

 

[StealthGoblin]

While MS has more studios, many of them are rather small or relatively new and unproven. Let's look at the numbers:

A lot of those Sony studio numbers are quite a lot under what they actually have.

SCEWWS actually has about 2600 employees, give or take in total.

 

[benny_a]

All subjective of course, but it's not some kind of night and day difference like you're making out, and I'd personally rate MS's publishing output for last year.

Don't forget I was responding to someone that made the opposite claim using Metacritic data. I just looked up the data on how GAF sees the various publishers over the years.

What I personally thought didn't enter into the equation. I can't understand why MS didn't reach top 10 in 2011, for example.

 

[Monty Mole]

It's not just manpower though. Look at Polyphony and Turn 10. Polyphony have twice as many people on their team, yet Turn 10 have managed to pump out a new Forza title every other year since 2005.

Yes, comparing manpower is ridiculous, especially when MS tends to outsource more than Sony for assets.

Also LittleBigPlanet was developed with a very small team of less than 30. And yet it ended up being one of PS3's most important titles.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

While MS has more studios, many of them are rather small or relatively new and unproven. Let's look at the numbers:

Sony Computer Entertainment:

Naughty Dog - 240+
Santa Monica - 200+
San Diego - N/A
Foster City - N/A
London - 300+
Japan - 400+
Guerrilla, Guerrilla Cambridge - Combined 270+
Evolution - 87+
Media Molecule - 47+
Bend - 60+
Sucker Punch - 120+
Polyphony - 140+
Sony Online Entertainment - 664+


Microsoft Studios:

Rare - 150+
343i - 340+
BigPark - 60+
Black Tusk - 110+
MS Victoria - 100+
MSLA - 150+
MS Redmond - N/A
Platform Next - N/A
Playful - N/A
Skybox - N/A
Turn 10 - 70+
Twisted Pixel - 25+
Good Science - N/A
ConnectedExperiences - N/A
Kids&Lifestyle - N/A
Xbox LIVE Productions - N/A
Lionhead - 200+
Lift London - N/A
Soho - N/A
Press Play - 23+

Some of these studios don't even have a wikipedia page yet. I would say speaking of pure manpower Sony has probably the edge when it comes to first party. They can definitely pump out a lot of titles when they want to and should be able to support both PS3 and PS4.

Thank you. I think its pretty safe to say Sony have the larger first party.

 

[dragonbane]

It's not just manpower though. Look at Polyphony and Turn 10. Polyphony have twice as many people on their team, yet Turn 10 have managed to pump out a new Forza title every other year since 2005.

Turn 10 outsources a lot and I agree they probably are more focused. Still many of these studios are very new or only made Kinect titles so far. Not that I have anything against Kinect titles, but until the next Xbox ships we really don't know how many of them are capable to make "AAA" games that are worth playing. With Sony we have a clear picture, with Microsoft we don't.

If every studio on this list is able to make worthwhile games then MS has probably the edge. So far we don't know it. Counting studios is not proving anything, because it doesn't say anything about the number of employees, team size and the purpose of the studio.

Let's wait and see.

 

[uncleniccius]

Probably. They have over 2,300 employees. It's insane.

Wow. I don't understand why Ubi don't make Montreal do 2/3 projects at a time without help, rather than sharing. AC:3 felt really disjointed, and the number of studios may have been the reason.
Edit: WRT Polyphony, we could see 3 games announced by them on Wednesday based on the trailer for the event.

 

[travisbickle]

They're a studio. Studios can have multiple teams, and work with other developers.

But a studio which happens to have Team Siren and Team Ico sitting under its roof, and good relations with From Software, Level 5 among others.

It's only because the USA is so large they split their team between cities.

 

[Brad Grenz]

A lot of those Sony studio numbers are quite a lot under what they actually have.

SCEWWS actually has about 2600 employees, give or take in total.

Yeah, based on the 2011 date from the Santa Monica team page, that's probably from before they really staffed up the second team for Stig. They have been expanding the successful studios a lot as they shut down the ones that were flagging.

 

[DC R1D3R]

One question:

aren't "Sony Japan" a huge studio that works with multiple smaller teams (internal and external) to produce games? More like a publisher than a studio?

The day Sony start producing Japanese games on the scale of SMB1,SMW,SMG, Metroid, F-zero, Shenmue, Panzer Dragoon etc. they'll immediately win my respect :[

 

[benny_a]

The day Sony start producing Japanese games on the scale of SMB1,SMW,SMG, Metroid, F-zero, Shenmue, Panzer Dragoon etc. they'll immediately win my respect :[

They started producing them 6 years ago. It's just that they are so slow that they are not out yet.

 

[Satchel]

So now the goal posts are shifting from most 1st party studios to the SIZE of the studios?

God damn. Some of you have this shit down to a fine art.

 

[benny_a]

So now the goal posts are shifting from most 1st party studios to the SIZE of the studios?

God damn. Some of you have this shit down to a fine art.

The claim was never about most first party studios. That was the interpretation of iMax.

If you read the thread you would know this but here you are, just trying to stir shit up.

Edit: This whole dumb derailing was just because posters like myself didn't like how the incorrectly interpreted authoritative looking post by iMax was received.

 

[Brad Grenz]

So now the goal posts are shifting from most 1st party studios to the SIZE of the studios?

God damn. Some of you have this shit down to a fine art.

Having the most studios was never the goal in the first place. That's just an arbitrary data point iMax attempted to use to support his incorrect claim about the size of MS first party.

 

[StuBurns]

But a studio which happens to have Team Siren and Team Ico sitting under its roof, and good relations with From Software, Level 5 among others.

It's only because the USA is so large they split their team between cities.

Those are two fairly small teams. Naughty Dog's two teams are probably larger.

 

[dragonbane]

Yes, comparing manpower is ridiculous, especially when MS tends to outsource more than Sony for assets.

Also LittleBigPlanet was developed with a very small team of less than 30. And yet it ended up being one of PS3's most important titles.

Yes, comparing studio numbers is also ridiculous. It doesn't say anything. That's why I posted it to show that iMax numbers don't proof anything.

So now the goal posts are shifting from most 1st party studios to the SIZE of the studios?

God damn. Some of you have this shit down to a fine art.

Both goal posts are retarded.

 

[Satchel]

Having the most studios was never the goal in the first place. That's just an arbitrary data point iMax attempted to use to support his incorrect claim about the size of MS first party.

As opposed to many who love to claim MS has no first party studios?

Honestly, who cares?

They all have enough studios to create enough games to last a regular gamer half a lifetime.

Enough dick measuring.

 

[artist]

If you read the thread you would know this but here you are, just trying to stir shit up.

He likes his goal posts.

Not only that, the goal posts suddenly shift very quickly.

Watching goal posts shift in front of your eyes is pretty funny stuff.

The goal posts will move anyway regardless of the outcome.

Both goal posts are retarded.

GOAL POSTS!

Lets talk some Fifa now.

Spoiler

Please end this derail

 

[driver116]

They started producing them 6 years ago. It's just that they are so slow that they are not out yet.

Someone mentioned Japan studio is pretty big (400+), what have they been doing for the last 6 years?

 

[benny_a]

Someone mentioned Japan studio is pretty big (400+), what have they been doing for the last 6 years?

You know how in Japan you bow when you feel shamed? Let's just say they bowed a lot.

 

[Satchel]

He likes his goal posts.

GOAL POSTS!

Lets talk some Fifa now.

Spoiler

Please end this derail

I call it as I see it. Nothing more. In so many threads, I see members post about how Microsoft has no first party studios. Especially compared to Sony.

Someone then points out that Microsoft has almost just as many and suddenly we're discussing the number of employees? Gimme a break.

 

[travisbickle]

The day Sony start producing Japanese games on the scale of SMB1,SMW,SMG, Metroid, F-zero, Shenmue, Panzer Dragoon etc. they'll immediately win my respect :[

They did make Loco Roco, Patatpon, Ape Escape, Echocrome, and helped make Ico/Colossus, and Siren series.

 

[benny_a]

I call it as I see it. Nothing more. In so many threads, I see members post about how Microsoft has no first party studios. Especially compared to Sony.

Call these members out when that happens, not reference them in an unrelated discussion where it's not important and nobody has made such claim.

Someone then points out that Microsoft has almost just as many and suddenly we're discussing the number of employees? Gimme a break.

That's not how it went. A poster said that Sony has a larger first-party than MS and then iMax used the unreasonable interpretation that it was about amount of studios he was referring to. (With the implicit message that one Twisted Pixel with 25 employees counts as one, while SOE with over 600 employees is also counted as one.)
I personally would have used amount of games put out in the last few years or headcount.

Edit: It's over anyway and even this post wouldn't have been needed if you had followed the argument until its inception and not posted your favorite phrase.

 

[Satchel]

That's now how it went. A poster said that Sony has a larger first-party than MS and then iMax used the unreasonable interpretation that it was about amount of studios.
I personally would have used amount of games put out in the last few years or headcount.

Output would vary for different reasons though.

Sonys MO is to get the newer stuff out at the end of the Gen to extend the life of the console. This has happened for all 3 of their consoles.

Microsofts is to get all the new stuff out early and jump out of the gate.

Looking at past history, its easier to explain the output from both publishers in the last couple of years no?

 

[Dabanton]

This thread is staggering. Are people actually arguing over how many people are employed at each studio that MS and Sony have? To determine who has the "biggest" first party?

I seen plenty of list Warz on here before but this is a new one even for me.

 

[i_am_ben]

They did make Loco Roco, Patatpon, Ape Escape, Echocrome, and helped make Ico/Colossus, and Siren series.

Sony needs to bring back Ape Escape.


Also I for one thought Sony had far more First Party studios than Microsoft. So colour me surprised.

 

[NemesisPrime]

This thread is staggering. Are people actually arguing over how many people are employed at each studio that MS and Sony have? To determine who has the "biggest" first party?

I seen plenty of list Warz on here before but this is a new one even for me.

Yeah it is turning pathetic tbh.

 

[jaypah]

I woke up and saw this thread at the top of the page (along with the Xbox reveal thread) and thought some quality news had popped up. But nope, just yall taking poop out of your butts and shoving it in each others butts. You guys are nuts.

 

[nib95]

He's not right though. It was quite prominent. They dedicated a long segment of their reveal to it. "Not prominent" would be mentioning its existence, showing it real quick, then moving on. It was prominent.

10 mins out of 2 hours is prominent to you? Oh lol....

 

[Wynnebeck]

I woke up and saw this thread at the top of the page (along with the Xbox reveal thread) and thought some quality news had popped up. But nope, just yall taking poop out of your butts and shoving it in each others butts. You guys are nuts.

You need to stop visiting 4chan late at night bruh.

 

[StuBurns]

Output would vary for different reasons though.

Sonys MO is to get the newer stuff out at the end of the Gen to extend the life of the console. This has happened for all 3 of their consoles.

Microsofts is to get all the new stuff out early and jump out of the gate.

Looking at past history, its easier to explain the output from both publishers in the last couple of years no?

Sony started the generation launching more original IP than they have of the last couple years didn't they? All I can really think of is TLoU, I don't think Sony is doing what you're suggesting at all.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Thread is heating up, tons of cringe worthy posts being put out, emotions are high, defensive modes are being switched on.

Yep, smells like a console reveal is on the horizon.

 

[iMax]

Yes, comparing studio numbers is also ridiculous. It doesn't say anything. That's why I posted it to show that iMax numbers don't proof anything.

I don't believe studio numbers reflect game quality; as others have mentioned, look at titles like Mark of the Ninja. I used it merely as a point of illustration. When it was mentioned by someone that 'Sony had a larger first party than Microsoft', I wanted to make a point that this a) depends on how you interpret what 'larger' means, and b) is not necessarily reflective of the quality of titles being produced (as shown with the Metacritic links).

 

[jaypah]

You need to stop visiting 4chan late at night bruh.

Lol, I've been on 4chan twice in my whole life. Reading that post back it is pretty ridiculous though. Meh, I just woke up, give me a break.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

So now the goal posts are shifting from most 1st party studios to the SIZE of the studios?

God damn. Some of you have this shit down to a fine art.

Furthermore they have a much larger first party so they can afford some of them being lttp for next gen.

It was iMax with who ridiculously thought the number of first party studios a company has results in how large their first party is.

Nice try to stir things up again though.

 

[Monty Mole]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the quality of Microsoft's first party output. At retail, recent games likes Gears Judgment, Forza Horizon, Dance Central 3 and Halo 4 are all perfectly decent games that did well both critically and commercially. On the XBLA front, games like Fez, Mark of the Ninja, Trials, Spelunky etc are also games that have been very successful.

In terms of diversity, risk taking and quantity however, that's where Microsoft's first party line-up is a let-down and I'd agree. However, after Peter Moore/Shane Kim left the first party studios in a mess (losing Bioware, Bungie and Bizarre within a month of each other), leaving Rare in tatters and closing down the likes of Ensemble etc, it's no surprise that it's taken a good while for Mattrick to get things back to where they need to be - and the results of that hard work will be shown on Durango. The proof will be in the pudding.

Halo 4 has haters, but to build up a studio completely from scratch and develop their first game with that much pedigree to live up to, I thought 343 pulled off the impossible. Same goes for Microsoft's collaboration with Playground Games on Forza Horizon. Surely it gives confidence in what they'll be doing next.

 

[Satchel]

Sony started the generation launching more original IP than they have of the last couple years didn't they? All I can really think of is TLoU, I don't think Sony is doing what you're suggesting at all.

I count digital titles, even if many here bizarrely don't.