based on this
it looks like it to me. Seems to be flat colors with the geometry expressing all the detail. It's just the style he's going for it seems useless to use textures that big.
Also 800mb for audio, wow.
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The Witness using 5GB RAM so far
- Thread starter shinobi602
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based on this
it looks like it to me. Seems to be flat colors with the geometry expressing all the detail. It's just the style he's going for it seems useless to use textures that big.
Also 800mb for audio, wow.
blitzcloud
Banned
that sounds like they don't want to optimize because it's hard.
Hey smartphones, keep up. We don't want to compress assets for you!
Hey smartphones, keep up. We don't want to compress assets for you!
Can Crusher
Banned
XX ram isn't that much= devs will have to workaround and find ways to make their games run as expected, which will cost them time and money.
XXX ram isn't enough= devs will not be able to run their game or it will run like shit
Quite different if you ask me.
pd. plus the resources they do not spend optimizing on ps4 may be useful to optimize other versions/ports
famousmortimer
Banned
In what universe is ram used solely for graphics?
KaiserBecks
Member
Dat >5GB worth of data:
It's a beautiful game.
It's such a shame that this is "only" a puzzle game. Everytime I see those gifs, I instantly wish this was a new Minecraft. That said, unoptimized or not, I don't care about "The Whitness" simply because it's being made by Jonathan Blow. I just don't like the guy.
I don't understand what's going on in this thread. Some people are unhappy with Blow for not "optimizing" to the nth degree and using all that RAM for something super intense and next-gen? His game doesn't have or need anything like that! He's just making simple, efficient use the heap of fast memory that Sony provided him, and doing it in a way that suits the game he's actually making. Not everything on the PS4 needs to be Naughty Dog or Guerrilla Games caliber to the metal performance EXTREEEM just because some games will inevitably go that route.
As Durante said, the fact that indie developers can do "lazy" things like this is a strength of the PS4, not a weakness. Just being able to load up massive chunks of space without needing to design a separate level streaming system frees up a lot of him on his end and lets him focus on other things. It's good for everyone.
As Durante said, the fact that indie developers can do "lazy" things like this is a strength of the PS4, not a weakness. Just being able to load up massive chunks of space without needing to design a separate level streaming system frees up a lot of him on his end and lets him focus on other things. It's good for everyone.
The tweet implied that the textures were what was using most of the ram.
It is a good thing when developers don't need to spend time optimizing to achieve their goals on a particular platform.
Manual optimization is a process which costs money and has developers not working on the actual game.
It's not a good thing.
(And I say this as someone who really enjoys doing it!)
To be honest, as a dev I wouldn't twitter this... It is no accomplishment to fill memory with stuff.
I am also wondering about his post of the demoscene where he mentions 64k-limit-demos. It seems he doesn't know that these demos are limited in filesize, not in ram-usage. And a lot of his posts seem complaining-about-ms-posts which doesn't make him look any better...
I am also wondering about his post of the demoscene where he mentions 64k-limit-demos. It seems he doesn't know that these demos are limited in filesize, not in ram-usage. And a lot of his posts seem complaining-about-ms-posts which doesn't make him look any better...
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
That seems quite unnecessary
If you looked at some shots from the game (like http://media1.gameinformer.com/imagefeed/screenshots/TheWitness/shot_2013.01.19__time_09_06_n06.jpg) it is clearly not just flat colours.
It is also hard to get procedural generation to look as you want it to, if you have the RAM just use a damn texture!
Can Crusher
Banned
In no universe. But the basic idea is that The Witness doesn't seem to be using such amount of ram to really make a big difference to what we had before.
Let's say it's not the most effective usage of 5 GB of Ram, from what we've seen. I don't see what's so hard to understand, or why there seems to be a need to defend this guy that is basically only saying this to make the point that Xbox One doesn't have enough ram.
Since he decided to put himself in that place, he is putting his game in a position to be compared. That's what this is all about.
famousmortimer
Banned
I'm not just talking about The Witness.
Any game, ever, on any console, if it isn't using all of the ram it isn't "unoptimized."
5GBs for The Witness may sound like a lot to you. I don't know why, but that's the feeling I get. But he hasn't had to cut any corners (aka optimize) to get the game to run. I don't understand, at all, how that is a bad thing.
And, on the topic of The Witness vs Wind Waker HD... you guys are high if you think they look the same. And I'm saying this as someone who is buying WWHD on day one and The Witness at some point when it's cheaper or never. But The Witness is an incredible looking game. Screens don't do it justice.
GreggTheGrimReaper
Member
I think of RAM like displacement in a car engine.
Why should he bother each step of optimisation takes longer and brings less benefit, furthermore you have to test more and more code, and you also increase the chance for fuckups.
Id rather he spent time making the game better and fixing bugs rather then optimising it so it uses none of the RAM so the fourmnites can be happy.
Id see it more as the petrol tank
RadarScope1
Member
I sincerely hope everyone shitting on what Blow said is a game developer. It's no wonder so many industry types looks at GAF and shake their heads.
I'd say what takes up the most RAM in games are the following: textures, animations, lightmaps (sort of comes under textures) and sounds. Actual geometry and code is miniscule in comparison.
famousmortimer
Banned
That's what I don't understand. What exactly is an effective use of 5gb or ram? If he isn't filling the ram up why does he need to cut corners? This entire line of argument makes no sense at all.
His point is that he isn't wasting time cutting corners to make the game run on less ram. This is EXACTLY what we want to hear. The less barrier the better (AND CHEAPER!!) for developers. He took a swipe at cheap DDR3 which seems to have you all fired up but it's also making you miss the point entirely.
RadarScope1
Member
How does the game play so far? I'm dying for some hands-on impressions.
Some seem to have the need to attack a guy just because he said his game is using 5GB of ram and the more the better
There are no good comparisons in computer architecture with cars. Many people look at RAM the wrong way.
maabus1999
Member
The most effective use of RAM is doing a RAMDrive like experience (entire game is put into RAM), where there is basically no loading of anything.
However, you still need to load the RAM so it would be a very long load time, or it would "stream" for several minutes until finished.
Beyond that, it really would depend on the game. Large open world probably needs the variable space. High-Res textures need the space. Uncompressed Audio that is constantly being loaded could take a good amount.
Still from what I read, and he is shooting for an iOS release, I just don't understand what he is using it for yet.
Truth right there.
Exactly, you have to at least be comparing it with Fighter Jets or Submarines for it to make ANY sense.
yeah but his point is he doesnt NEED to waste time optimizing that stuff
just dump every texture and audio file into ram up front and be done with it. why waste time optimizing if you don't need to?
maabus1999
Member
The only one that exits is that Penny Arcade Expo many years ago I think? Heard a lot about "mazes" you had to solve and that was about it, but that was years ago and obviously unfinished.
Not sure what he is shooting for either. A new Myst?
Fucking ignorance in this thread. His tweets are a great sign. Also, uncompressed high res lightmaps take up a lot of space and make the game look f a n t a s t i c. And that's just one example. Why the HELL should he optimizing the game by making them look uglier? Because it is stuff like that that is optimizing. You just don't go in and do miracle work with code. You cut down on the ASSETS, make more lods (time consuming and boring) and level design around your memory limitations. He doesn't have to and this is GREAT.
Art assets that look a ton better than what a phone can handle?
Well, I don't know about submarines and fighter jets so maybe... But I still have some doubts
exactly
GoddyofAus
Banned
This guy really hates MS. He almost sounds like a Sony moneyhat.
Tripolygon
Banned
op·ti·mize
If a developer has an idea for a game world that is huge with high poly models and high resolution textures that needs 2GB RAM but the RAM is limited to about 512MB, the developer will have to Make the best or most effective use of (resource = RAM) by Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing. Which mean reduced the polygon count, texture resolution and make use of streaming assets to make the game fit in the 512MB of RAM.
If the developer has 4GB of RAM at his disposal, he does not need to Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing, because he has enough RAM to achieve his idea without sacrificing polygon count, texture resolution or even resorting to asset streaming. The game is however not not optimized because it is making use of the RAM available.
Optimizing in this situation does not mean a better game, it means making effective use of your limited resources to achieve your goal even if you have to cut a few things out of the game to make it fit into 512MB RAM or end up far short of your original grand idea.
Optimize does not mean good game and Not Optimized does not mean bad game because they change based on the scope of the individual game and how limited resources are. A game like Tetris does not need optimizing on a PS3 512MB RAM while a game like Uncharted need optimizing to make it work on PS3.
idk if this makes any sense.
- Make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource).
- Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing.
If a developer has an idea for a game world that is huge with high poly models and high resolution textures that needs 2GB RAM but the RAM is limited to about 512MB, the developer will have to Make the best or most effective use of (resource = RAM) by Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing. Which mean reduced the polygon count, texture resolution and make use of streaming assets to make the game fit in the 512MB of RAM.
If the developer has 4GB of RAM at his disposal, he does not need to Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing, because he has enough RAM to achieve his idea without sacrificing polygon count, texture resolution or even resorting to asset streaming. The game is however not not optimized because it is making use of the RAM available.
Optimizing in this situation does not mean a better game, it means making effective use of your limited resources to achieve your goal even if you have to cut a few things out of the game to make it fit into 512MB RAM or end up far short of your original grand idea.
Optimize does not mean good game and Not Optimized does not mean bad game because they change based on the scope of the individual game and how limited resources are. A game like Tetris does not need optimizing on a PS3 512MB RAM while a game like Uncharted need optimizing to make it work on PS3.
idk if this makes any sense.
16 4Gb DDR3 2133 modules aren't dirt cheap. Cheaper in comparison to GDDR5 certainly but it's still relatively a very large piece of the BOM.
EDIT
At retail, the Micron parts are $15 a piece and the console uses 16 of them. Obviously MS is not paying retail but even a substantial reduction due to bulk purchasing leaves you with one of the most expensive systems in the console.
EDIT
At retail, the Micron parts are $15 a piece and the console uses 16 of them. Obviously MS is not paying retail but even a substantial reduction due to bulk purchasing leaves you with one of the most expensive systems in the console.
No, you are just over reacting.
maabus1999
Member
Which is fine, but he better make it worthwhile in look on top of size. Those GIFs posted in this thread look nice but not 5GB+ nice IMO.
In the end, he just has to show a final product that used it well; he may or he may not.
I really don't get the big deal. He does not have to do something that is costly to do in order to realize his vision for his product and can release it to customers with no discernible issues. Discusses this on Twitter. Then people call him lazy, take potshots at his game for not being impressive enough to warrant his noted RAM usage, which they wouldn't have known (nor given a damn about) if he hadn't brought it up in discussion in the first place.
What is wrong with you people?
Let the man make the game he wants the way he wants and stop being so damned judgmental. The key takeaway from the story is this: He doesn't have to optimize if he doesn't want to. That's a pretty big shift for any developer, nevermind one this size.
What is wrong with you people?
Let the man make the game he wants the way he wants and stop being so damned judgmental. The key takeaway from the story is this: He doesn't have to optimize if he doesn't want to. That's a pretty big shift for any developer, nevermind one this size.
maabus1999
Member
Yes, it has been done on PCs before. However, in another Tweet he says his game uses too much RAM so he still has to stream, so he isn't doing that either.
Again, he is using a lot of RAM
Have to see what for.So you are comparing texture quality based off of low res GIFs..... Unbelievable.
I can't tell if these posts are parody or not anymore
Yes, it has been done on PCs before. However, in another Tweet he says his game uses too much RAM so he still has to stream, so he isn't doing that either.
Again, he is using a lot of RAM
Alright, thanks.
VGChampion
Member
I know next to nothing about tech and even I got to this point. It sounds like a good thing to me, not bad.
If the scope is solidly defined, this isn't a bad idea; cramming everything into RAM in one go is a perfectly acceptable approach. I do have mild worries about how brutal the intialisation phase is, but I'm assuming it's streaming from the HD rather than from a disc, so that should alleviate things considerably
That said, 'if the scope is solidly defined' is important; it doesn't leave him with much in the way of leeway. I've worked quite close to RAM limits on a few games, and it can get to the point where you get terrified to add anything new because it might push you over the limit. Hopefully he's got a comprehensive and accurate memory budget laid out.
It's a pain to write good, solid streaming code; I worked on the PSP version of Gun, and we had an awful lot of niggling bugs in the streaming code which required a lot of work to smooth out. That said, if you *do* nail the streaming code, suddenly you're able to produce environments considerably larger than the memory limitations allow. A The Witness produced for a system with a smaller memory pool - so they were forced into having to make streaming code - could in turn be significantly larger than this one...
...but there's no point in doing that if you don't have to. Strictly speaking, it's not a particularly economical approach to memory usage - but it's an extremely sensible, extremely economical approach to time usage, and that's something that it's sometimes hard for the end viewer to comprehend and appreciate.
That said, 'if the scope is solidly defined' is important; it doesn't leave him with much in the way of leeway. I've worked quite close to RAM limits on a few games, and it can get to the point where you get terrified to add anything new because it might push you over the limit. Hopefully he's got a comprehensive and accurate memory budget laid out.
It's a pain to write good, solid streaming code; I worked on the PSP version of Gun, and we had an awful lot of niggling bugs in the streaming code which required a lot of work to smooth out. That said, if you *do* nail the streaming code, suddenly you're able to produce environments considerably larger than the memory limitations allow. A The Witness produced for a system with a smaller memory pool - so they were forced into having to make streaming code - could in turn be significantly larger than this one...
...but there's no point in doing that if you don't have to. Strictly speaking, it's not a particularly economical approach to memory usage - but it's an extremely sensible, extremely economical approach to time usage, and that's something that it's sometimes hard for the end viewer to comprehend and appreciate.
So we have a new dev-type - the casual-dev?
Ricko Suave
Member
I understand little to nothing about what the quoted guy in the OP said. That being said. My mac book pro has 4gb of memory. I can still play Portal, Portal 2, Amnesia, Even Diablo 3 at a decent configuration. MS... just let me play.
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