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[maabus1999]

So you are comparing texture quality based off of low res GIFs..... Unbelievable.

Wasn't comparing the GIFs directly. Please. I just said I don't see where he is going to use over 4 to 5 GB of textures is all.

 

[Vinci]

So we have a new dev-type - the casual-dev?

Good lord, I hope so.

 

[Durante]

So we have a new dev-type - the casual-dev?

You can call it "casual". I would say that efficient is more applicable.
Personally, I love "to the metal" optimization. But that doesn't prevent me from admitting that making it superfluous is a good thing.

 

[blitzcloud]

yeah but his point is he doesnt NEED to waste time optimizing that stuff
just dump every texture and audio file into ram up front and be done with it. why waste time optimizing if you don't need to?

Because that's what optimizing is all about... and saying that optimizing is wasting time because we have ram for cheap is the reason why (almost) every game needs ridiculous specs to play with some visual fidelity.

Because I assume that texture size needs to be passed to the gpu, and that RAM is not as big and cheap as DDR3.

Also, why using compression when we have terabytes. Let every game be 30-50 Gb, who cares?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

 

[Sleeplessnights]

I wouldn't let Steve Gaynor touch a game I'm working on, that mindset is just too much for my RAM.

 

[Durante]

Because that's what optimizing is all about... and saying that optimizing is wasting time because we have ram for cheap is the reason why (almost) every game needs ridiculous specs to play with some visual fidelity.

But manual optimization is a waste of time if you can reach your goals on a platform without doing it. There are no two ways about it. The only reason to do it would be personal satisfaction.

 

[TheD]

Wasn't comparing the GIFs directly. Please. I just said I don't see where he is going to use over 4 to 5 GB of textures is all.

You said that based off GIFs of the game you did not think the game looked "5GB+ nice", bar the fact that most of that data would be texture data and thus you can not make any statements about how good it looks for it's size from a low res (maybe low colour) image!

 

[SappYoda]

Because that's what optimizing is all about... and saying that optimizing is wasting time because we have ram for cheap is the reason why (almost) every game needs ridiculous specs to play with some visual fidelity.

Because I assume that texture size needs to be passed to the gpu, and that RAM is not as big and cheap as DDR3.

Also, why using compression when we have terabytes. Let every game be 30-50 Gb, who cares?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

Thats a different thing. The Witness could end up being a few hundred MB to download and still ocupy 5GB of RAM once its running.

And kkrieger aparently requieres 512 MB of RAM to run: http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/demos/groups/farb-rausch/kkrieger-beta.zip&fileinfo

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Because that's what optimizing is all about... and saying that optimizing is wasting time because we have ram for cheap is the reason why (almost) every game needs ridiculous specs to play with some visual fidelity.

Because I assume that texture size needs to be passed to the gpu, and that RAM is not as big and cheap as DDR3.

Also, why using compression when we have terabytes. Let every game be 30-50 Gb, who cares?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

If the hardware platform is built to support that, then why should the end user care? If the hardware can process that uncompressed data fast enough that it doesn't bother anyone, why should a developer not make that choice?

The practical concern in this thread, I guess, is that The Witness isn't only on PS4, so people are worried that it won't run as well on their PCs or something. Then they'll be angry at Jonathan Blow upon discovering, once again, that game performance isn't linearly related to the amount of money they spent on their PC. Goddamn lazy devs!

 

[NervousXtian]

Still, bragging about filling ram is like bragging I can fill a pot up with water from my sink.

 

[c0de]

You can call it "casual". I would say that efficient is more applicable.
Personally, I love "to the metal" optimization. But that doesn't prevent me from admitting that making it superfluous is a good thing.

It always depends. I would say casual-devs are not efficient but effective, though. But still it could be good if (indie-)devs don't have to read isa-manuals to achieve a smooth running game

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Still, bragging about filling ram is like bragging I can fill a pot up with water from my sink.

He was just answering a question about RAM and used his game as an example. Is that bragging?

 

[c0de]

Because that's what optimizing is all about... and saying that optimizing is wasting time because we have ram for cheap is the reason why (almost) every game needs ridiculous specs to play with some visual fidelity.

Because I assume that texture size needs to be passed to the gpu, and that RAM is not as big and cheap as DDR3.

Also, why using compression when we have terabytes. Let every game be 30-50 Gb, who cares?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

kkruncher made mainly by fabian: https://twitter.com/rygorous (working at RAD right now...)

 

[Kai Dracon]

Still, bragging about filling ram is like bragging I can fill a pot up with water from my sink.

This is actually kind of true.

On the other hand many people are responding by essentially saying "he doesn't need that much water anyway" without really knowing why the water's being drawn in the first place.

What be RAM?

 

[freenudemacusers]

Sorry to single you out, but you were just the most recent of a ludicrous batch of posts. Blow is as low level as an indie guy gets, and kind of has been for a decade or so. Here's a sample bibliography; saying that he doesn't have a grasp on these issues is just weird, and shows a serious misunderstanding of his position.

LOL

clearly he must be using rpg builder to create his game amirite gaf

 

[disastermouse]

I see Blow went to the Crytek school for optimization.


Fuck it. If the systems have that much memory let developers go crazy.

Optimization will be necessary as the generation moves along, but for now, let them go a little nuts with the vastly improved RAM overhead. It means we'll see more games sooner. True system optimization will come. IMHO.

 

[Durante]

Blow is as low level as an indie guy gets, and kind of has been for a decade or so. Here's a sample bibliography; saying that he doesn't have a grasp on these issues is just weird, and shows a serious misunderstanding of his position.

I missed this the first time around, really puts things into perspective.

If only there was a super ubiquitous and universally accepted to the point of cliche programming catchphrase that dealt with this exact issue

Heh.

 

[cyberheater]

Expect long load times.

5Gb is going to take about 1 minute to fill up from a HDD.

 

[SomeOneInaHat]

Expect long load times.

5Gb is going to take about 1 minute to fill up from a HDD.

Maybe just one large initial load time

 

[Truespeed]

Unused memory is wasted memory. Calling it unoptimized because he doesn't want to stream so that he can leave 2-5 GB of GDDR5 empty is ignorant.

 

[Boss Man]

I see both sides of this really.

On one hand, yeah the game could probably do with a lot less memory and not sacrifice a lot. On the other hand, the point that he's making is that 8GB is not too much because our only context is with games that are making tons of sacrifices to deal with less. His evidence is that even a game like The Witness is using 5GB when it isn't gimping itself to fit on less memory. It would seem feasible that by the end (or even middle) of the generation, a big AAA budget game will be squeezing itself into that 8GB.

 

[cyberheater]

Maybe just one large initial load time

Yes but the dev in the OP was saying that he basically wants the whole world to load in memory per level.

So your going to have a least a 1 minute wait between levels if they don't implement streaming.

 

[NervousXtian]

He was just answering a question about RAM and used his game as an example. Is that bragging?

Let me put this right here:

Yes, he is bragging about it. Why else mention it's an indie game, and a small team.. like it was a great feat to fill up all that RAM.

Also, 8gb is the max ram most people have these days.. sure you can put 16gb in, but 8gb by far is the amount most people will need... even with how cheap RAM is.

Not to count the poor saps with 32bit Windows.

 

[SomeOneInaHat]

Yes but the dev in the OP was saying that he basically wants the whole world to load in memory per level.

So your going to have a least a 1 minute wait between levels if they don't implement streaming.

Levels? Isn't this open world.

Even if they were levels. Isn't it possible to load several maps in a string reducing wait time, as long as you have the random access memory to do so?

 

[RadarScope1]

The only one that exits is that Penny Arcade Expo many years ago I think? Heard a lot about "mazes" you had to solve and that was about it, but that was years ago and obviously unfinished.

Not sure what he is shooting for either. A new Myst?

Yeah but clearly Can Crusher has spent some quality time with a recent build. Why else would he make the posts he did?

Unless he was making ill-informed judgements by cramming a fleeting subjective impression into a discussion about tech?

 

[ReBurn]

I once wrote half a dozen lines of code that used all of the RAM on the system. Back in the olden days I used to run that code whenever I needed to get a little more time to complete my lab assignments, since nobody could compile if the mainframe was down because some jerk got malloc happy in an infinte loop.

When he's taking up all of the RAM with such a few lines of code then he can brag.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I think the point of mentioning that it's an 'indie game' is to tease apart the idea than an AAA budget means more money = more resource use. Say you have a game chock-full of voice acting, FMVs, etc etc vs a abstract procedurally generated game with a large open player environment. The latter might push the system harder or need certain resources in greater abundance yet have only cost a fraction of former.

 

[spwolf]

Yes, he is bragging about it. Why else mention it's an indie game, and a small team.. like it was a great feat to fill up all that RAM.

Also, 8gb is the max ram most people have these days.. sure you can put 16gb in, but 8gb by far is the amount most people will need... even with how cheap RAM is.

Not to count the poor saps with 32bit Windows.

shit, your tag is better than mine

NervousXtian
I'm an idiot

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Let me put this right here:


Yes, he is bragging about it. Why else mention it's an indie game, and a small team.. like it was a great feat to fill up all that RAM.

Also, 8gb is the max ram most people have these days.. sure you can put 16gb in, but 8gb by far is the amount most people will need... even with how cheap RAM is.

Not to count the poor saps with 32bit Windows.

To show even an small production can use a lot of ram? There's some misconception that if games aren't AAA productions they don't need resources.

I guess his argument is that since they went DDR3 they should have all the way and put even more RAM seeing that the OS uses 3GB. More RAM is always better, even if most people these days don't use it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think the point of mentioning that it's an 'indie game' is to tease apart the idea than an AAA budget means more money = more resource use. Say you have a game chock-full of voice acting, FMVs, etc etc vs a abstract procedurally generated game with a large open player environment. The latter might push the system harder or need certain resources in greater abundance yet have only cost a fraction of former.

Yeah. His point was it was very easy to fill up 5 GB of RAM. People taking that as some kind of brag are reading it to mean the opposite of what he meant it as.

I'll never get the hate for Johnathan Blow.

 

[cyberheater]

Levels? Isn't this open world.

Even if they were levels. Isn't it possible to load several maps in a string reducing wait time, as long as you have the random access memory to do so?

Once you've filled that 5Gb of game memory with the level/world then that's it. You've got no more spare game memory left to use.

 

[ari]

This game does not need 5gb of RAM.

 

[Orayn]

So we have a new dev-type - the casual-dev?

Nothing casual about small or solo developers who have limited person-hours to commit to development. If the PS4's specs let them use the hardware "inefficiently" to get I the development of the game done in an efficient matter, what's the problem? This is a case where "unoptimized" doesn't mean bad performance or bugs, it just means that a large amount of time wasn't spent on something that wasn't necessary in the first place.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

Dear armchair developer gaf. Thank you for this thread.

LMAO

 

[Boss Man]

I once wrote half a dozen lines of code that used all of the RAM on the system. Back in the olden days I used to run that code whenever I needed to get a little more time to complete my lab assignments, since nobody could compile if the mainframe was down because some jerk got malloc happy in an infinte loop.

When he's taking up all of the RAM with such a few lines of code then he can brag.

You asshole.

Spoiler

I had a badfork() function that ran on our linux machine to do something similar. Just created a ton of processes in an infinite loop until the system would crash. They caught me after a few times, but I played stupid. It's a pretty standard thing to defend against, so I think it's their fault more than mine.

 

[spwolf]

I think the point of mentioning that it's an 'indie game' is to tease apart the idea than an AAA budget means more money = more resource use. Say you have a game chock-full of voice acting, FMVs, etc etc vs a abstract procedurally generated game with a large open player environment. The latter might push the system harder or need certain resources in greater abundance yet have only cost a fraction of former.

no, what he is saying is that in next gen consoles, you can make your game with less time spent on optimizing technical aspects of game engine, and more time spent on optimizing the gameplay.

It is really not that hard to understand. Same budget on PS4/XO vs PS3/360 = prettier and better game.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Nothing casual about small or solo developers who have limited person-hours to commit to development. If the PS4's specs let them use the hardware "inefficiently" to get I the development of the game done in an efficient matter, what's the problem? This is a case where "unoptimized" doesn't mean bad performance or bugs, it just means that a large amount of time wasn't spent on something that wasn't necessary in the first place.

I wonder how many here would like their employer to expect an individual to produce the same output as a dozen or more.

no, what he is saying is that in next gen consoles, you can make your game with less time spent on optimizing technical aspects of game engine, and more time spent on optimizing the gameplay.

It is really not that hard to understand. Same budget on PS4/XO vs PS3/360 = prettier and better game.

that's essentially what I said.

edit: sorry that was a curt response. I think both are true.

 

[Orayn]

This game does not need 5gb of RAM.

Do you know sort of rule about RAM usage that Blow doesn't? You should get on Twitter and let him know so he doesn't run afoul of the RAM Police.

 

[spwolf]

Nothing casual about small or solo developers who have limited person-hours to commit to development. If the PS4's specs let them use the hardware "inefficiently" to get I the development of the game done in an efficient matter, what's the problem? This is a case where "unoptimized" doesn't mean bad performance or bugs, it just means that a large amount of time wasn't spent on something that wasn't necessary in the first place.

its for everyone.

Lets put it down to this:
Budget for small game: 50000 hours
(invented the number)

Budget allocation:
PS3: 10000 hours on game engine
PS4: 3000 hours on game engine
= +7000 hours spent on graphics, gameplay, testing, etc, etc.

So it does not matter if it is for small or big, it allows for less budget being spent on game engine.

 

[NervousXtian]

To show even an small production can use a lot of ram? There's some misconception that if games aren't AAA productions they don't need resources.

I guess his argument is that since they went DDR3 they should have all the way and put even more RAM seeing that the OS uses 3GB. More RAM is always better, even if most people these days don't use it.

Well it's not like he's taking some kind of teaching the masses approach here. Filling up 5gb of ram with your game isn't any kind of statement at all.

He should get used to 8gb or less though, since it'll be quite sometime before anything more than that becomes the norm on PC's.

 

[kick51]

Dear armchair developer gaf. Thank you for this thread.

LMAO

I have read over 1000 articles on Digital Foundry and I say Jonathan Blow just isn't coding enough optimizations to the metal. Does he think the PS4 is gonna have a cloud add-on or something? Look how well that worked out for the 32X.

 

[inm8num2]

This game does not need 5gb of RAM.

But it deserves 5gb of RAM.

 

[Cryolemon]

I fully understand all the hate around the Xbox One and I share a lot of it, but I honestly feel that he makes these comments to stir up the fanboys and keep his game in the light.

That's probably part of it for sure.

 

[Rising_Hei]

So... he says something smart, thoughtful and gets backslashed, seriously?

 

[freenudemacusers]

So... he says something smart, thoughtful and gets backslashed, seriously?

this is e3 day hold onto your butts it's only getting worse from here.

 

[Randdalf]

I have read over 1000 articles on Digital Foundry and I say Jonathan Blow just isn't coding enough optimizations to the metal. Does he think the PS4 is gonna have a cloud add-on or something? Look how well that worked out for the 32X.

You don't need to code to the metal. That is the point here.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Games are starting to require 4 at minimum now so it kinda is.

I have a 1GB card and it is doing might fine (60fps is might fine to me).

op·ti·mize

• Make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource).
• Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing.

If a developer has an idea for a game world that is huge with high poly models and high resolution textures that needs 2GB RAM but the RAM is limited to about 512MB, the developer will have to Make the best or most effective use of (resource = RAM) by Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing. Which mean reduced the polygon count, texture resolution and make use of streaming assets to make the game fit in the 512MB of RAM.

If the developer has 4GB of RAM at his disposal, he does not need to Rearrange or rewrite (data) to improve efficiency of retrieval or processing, because he has enough RAM to achieve his idea without sacrificing polygon count, texture resolution or even resorting to asset streaming. The game is however not not optimized because it is making use of the RAM available.

Optimizing in this situation does not mean a better game, it means making effective use of your limited resources to achieve your goal even if you have to cut a few things out of the game to make it fit into 512MB RAM or end up far short of your original grand idea.

Optimize does not mean good game and Not Optimized does not mean bad game because they change based on the scope of the individual game and how limited resources are. A game like Tetris does not need optimizing on a PS3 512MB RAM while a game like Uncharted need optimizing to make it work on PS3.

idk if this makes any sense.

Hopefully this can clear up some things. It is amazing how there are such a huge number of people that did not get the point he was making. The people that do not get this are probably the same people that think COD runs on Quake 3 engine or that new engines are only engines made from the ground up. I am not even a good programmer or even know how to do a lot of code, but this should be obvious for enthusiast/hardcore gaming crowd on a dedicated Gaming forum.

 

[c0de]

You don't need to code to the metal. That is the point here.

No, he thinks he doesn't need to so far But possibly he doesn't need to. Still a strange guy basing on his comments.

 

[Orayn]

its for everyone.

Lets put it down to this:
Budget for small game: 50000 hours
(invented the number)

Budget allocation:
PS3: 10000 hours on game engine
PS4: 3000 hours on game engine
= +7000 hours spent on graphics, gameplay, testing, etc, etc.

So it does not matter if it is for small or big, it allows for less budget being spent on game engine.

Right, I just mentioned smaller teams because it's especially important to them.

You don't need to code to the metal. That is the point here.

The stack of misused buzzwords should have tipped you off to that post being sarcastic.

 

[kick51]

You don't need to code to the metal. That is the point here.

If you had any pride, you'd code to ALL the metal in the hardware, so you wouldn't even need to use any of the ram. I don't even know why we have RAM anymore. Just put like a steel ingot in there, code to that.