shanshan310
Member
coercing or forcing someone into sex, or beginning intercourse after they have said no.
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What happened when I started a feminist society at school
- Thread starter RobotNinjaHornets
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coercing or forcing someone into sex, or beginning intercourse after they have said no.
Pestering isn't coercing. Pestering isn't forcing. Pestering is to annoy someone with repeated requests.
Hypereides
Member
She sounds pretty ambitious, intellectual and intelligent for her age. I wish her best of good luck in her journey.
Also, those remarks by those boys are pretty worthless and tasteless. They lack any actual impact. Hey, I may sound like a white knight for once, but guys with single digit IQs aren't worth defending.
Also, those remarks by those boys are pretty worthless and tasteless. They lack any actual impact. Hey, I may sound like a white knight for once, but guys with single digit IQs aren't worth defending.
Conciliator
Banned
I don't know why feminism causes some men to flip the fuck out, but it no longer surprises me. The conservative machine's demonization of it over the last few decades has certainly contributed but I don't think that's all of it.
Guys (well teenagers in general) are pretty stupid at that age. I'm more disapointed at the apathy of the teaching staff. Persons who are supposed to teach that those remarks/behaviour are not okay.
triplestation
Member
She probably came off as condescending to the coffee bearing male
If she were smarter she would know which type of male to avoid
If she were smarter she would know which type of male to avoid
I think lots of it has to do with the misconception that all feminists hate men
Please be trolling. Please. I don't want to believe that there are people who actually believe this. She got attacked because she wasn't smart enough to avoid it? Really?
Chuckie
Member
I think boys with single digit IQ's are incapable of actually living/functioning
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Isn't obesity a much bigger problem amongst American teens than anorexia/bulimia?
shanshan310
Member
I meant if it escalated.
Hypereides
Member
I guess the boys in the article proved us wrong. ;-P
What pisses me off about a lot of feminists isn't because they're girls wanting equal rights. I'm all for equal right, I've never done anything bad to a woman and treat them with the respect that individual deserves(That might be total respect, or no respect, but based on that person, not their gender). They're girls labeling everything sexist and all men should feel bad for being men.
I ended up having this huge discussion about sexism in video games. I was being told that female characters are sexist towards women, male characters are sexist towards women, and everything is just a pervy male fantasy. One of their comments was "If male characters(like Shepard) are designed to look good to women then why don't they have huge bulges in their pants?". When I replied in what male fantasy would a small penis be involved I was ignored. When I commented on a sizable list of respectable, non-sexualized female characters, I was told to shut up. And every other comment I said was replied to in an extremely condescending way acting like I was a 5 year old who didn't know what 2+2 was and basically saying I must be a perverted guy who only sees tits and arse because I don't 100% agree with their views.
That's the kind of feminist crap I hate and a lot of guys hate. No group wants to all be labeled as a scum bag arsehole. I don't want to be lumped in the same group as rapists and abusers because I have a dick. Yet they always try to push that agenda.
I'm not against feminism but there seems to be a gap between equal rights feminists and pro-women/anti-men feminists. Not saying THIS feminist society was like that, those guys sound like total cunts, but there are reasons to not agree with a feminist without being misogynist. No one should have coffee thrown in their face.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I stopped reading at 17 year old girl. because honestly, 17 year old. I doubt any side of this situation was approached with anything close to actual maturity.
It would have been one big escalation of selfrightiousness -> asshole response to the power 10.
Source: Me because I went to high school once.
It would have been one big escalation of selfrightiousness -> asshole response to the power 10.
Source: Me because I went to high school once.
Of course. Even if it doesn't the pesterer is being a pest.
I'm a pest to my wife sometimes. And she tells me so.
captainnapalm
Member
The pressures facing teenage girls is real, and I always find it sad to hear how girls struggle with things like bulimea and even cutting, which is really disturbing.
But I do question if embracing feminism, and therefore creating an us vs them situation with the boys, is the way to solve these issues. Are these teenage boys really responsible for these girls developing problems like bulimea? 17-year-old boys have problems of their own, problems more than likely that provide a kind of mirror image to the ones facing girls. These issues cut to the heart of society and if you really want to help solve them, why not try and reach out and create something more inclusive?
Telling a teenage boy he needs to somehow focus squarely on your problems, as if his are irrelevant or not even there, seems ill-advised. They're just not going to be receptive to that are they.
But I do question if embracing feminism, and therefore creating an us vs them situation with the boys, is the way to solve these issues. Are these teenage boys really responsible for these girls developing problems like bulimea? 17-year-old boys have problems of their own, problems more than likely that provide a kind of mirror image to the ones facing girls. These issues cut to the heart of society and if you really want to help solve them, why not try and reach out and create something more inclusive?
Telling a teenage boy he needs to somehow focus squarely on your problems, as if his are irrelevant or not even there, seems ill-advised. They're just not going to be receptive to that are they.
That's what it seemed like to me too. It sounded like half the story. If she came out super aggressive I'd not be surprised by this type of behavior.
Starwolf_UK
Member
In a way you can define obesity as eating disorder or even malnutrition (these definitions cover both under and over consumption).
For me, these two stances can't co-exist. I simply don't believe you can preach, believe and practice equality whilst pressing the agenda (albeit with honorable intentions) of one demographic over another.
This isn't just a gender thing, the same applies to race, religion, sexuality, age, etc. I work in a large multinational company in which there are a number of social societies. Some are for women, some are for GLBT people, some are for Asian people and so on. But in my opinion, aside from the probable sense of inclusiveness it gives those who identify themselves with those societies, all it serves to do is further highlight the sense of "these people over here and different to those people over there".
The more you force people to acknowledge and accept differences in a ham-fisted and unnatural way, the more people will become attuned to and aware of those very differences.
RumblingRosco
Member
I know it is inappropriate, but I laughed a little at the absurd-ness of this. It's just so... stupid.
On-topic: Sexism is fucking annoying. As a man, I'm sure I've engaged in some sort of sexists or biased thought/action at some point in my life, but if so, it was not intentional and I try my best to not discriminate or make any preconceived thought about other genders, races, socioeconomic statuses, etc.
There's really no need to associate one's self with feminism. That's actually one of the most basic issues with these societal problems, labels, in-groups and out groups (or really just perception of such). You can do whatever you want without identifying yourself as something special, exclusive or different. It's also perhaps detrimental because the word is tainted and honestly a misnomer for a lot of self described feminists. Many are concerned about gender equality and there's no real reason to use a term that seems to exclude issues with men or any other identifiable gender.
I think everyone would see better success if they dropped the antiquated term.
I think everyone would see better success if they dropped the antiquated term.
Someone mentioned India earlier, and I feel like I have a story that would be interesting. (I'm from India, born here.)
When I was born, the nurse cheerfully announced that I was a boy. When my younger sister was born, the nurse was very reluctant to tell my mother what her sex was, because she was afraid that my mother would have a negative reaction.
Thankfully, my mother was happy with having a daughter, so things turned out fine. This was about 16-17 years ago, but I've always remembered this story as a sign of how much things have to progress here for gender equality.
When I was born, the nurse cheerfully announced that I was a boy. When my younger sister was born, the nurse was very reluctant to tell my mother what her sex was, because she was afraid that my mother would have a negative reaction.
Thankfully, my mother was happy with having a daughter, so things turned out fine. This was about 16-17 years ago, but I've always remembered this story as a sign of how much things have to progress here for gender equality.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
While it´s unacceptable that girls get treated like that in that high school,
but this
Give me a fucking break. Who puts this kind of crap into their heads?
but this
Give me a fucking break. Who puts this kind of crap into their heads?
shanshan310
Member
Feminism IS about equality though, not just pushing for women's rights.
When she says " Many of the girls have eating disorders" in my opinion that's a problem created by women. The vast majority of men don't want stick figures that are anorexic. I've never in my life met a guy who demands a girl lose weight that he's dating. Girls who verbally abuse and bully other girls at school and call them fat and a slut create those kind of eating disorders. Some intentionally want to make them get that disorder.
Somnid's comments a few posts up perfectly aligns with my own views on the matter, so I'd recommend you reading those in response. Ultimately I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions here - the subject matter is largely too sensitive for that to happen - but I think it is important to keep highlighting that certain pro-equality activity and behaviour can have the absolute opposite effect to that which was honorably intended.
The phrase "No doesn't mean 'Try harder'" comes to mind.
You're right legally, but I think there's something wrong morally and ethically with pressuring someone into sex with repeated requests. Men and women aren't the same and one way they aren't the same is in how they perceive interactions. For instance, in a study with elementary school students where boys and girls are made to watch an interaction of mild sexual harassment, only a fifth of the boys recognized that the girl might be frightened. They imagine how they would feel in that situation (physically secure and confident), and not how she might feel intimidated - which is how the girls viewing it reported (and also reported feelings of lowered self-esteem). If the situation involved the two people being alone, or if we were talking about a man who had demonstrated in other ways that he wasn't willing to respect boundaries I think it would exacerbate the issue. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can see a place where what feels like pestering to the man in a situation can feel like coercion to the woman in the same situation, because they don't necessarily have the same experiences.
And even if you don't call it "rape", it's still sleazy.
You have to contextualize those things, though. If men and women were already equal - socially, culturally, at home, in the workplace, all that - then focusing on the rights of women to improve their position relative to men would not be a good thing. But since men and women aren't equal in any of those areas, focusing on those issues is a way of moving towards gender equality.
It's really no different than the NAACP standing for the "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People." Does this mean that they aren't really for racial equality and are actually secret anti-white racists? Of course not.
There are a lot of parents who don't talk to their kids about race for this reason. They think that if they don't point out the differences and don't talk about them, if they don't teach their kids to notice race, they'll just ignore it and see other people as "People."
But it doesn't work like that:
And perhaps unsurprisingly, while both black and white kids expressed a preference for the white dolls, the preference was not nearly as strong among the black children. I don't think it is a stretch to think that black parents explicitly talking to their kids about race helps with this.
We learn these things very young, and this sort of associative memory stays with you. This is why when people are polled, 95 percent who are asked to envision a drug dealer envision a black man. This is why when people are put in an experiment where they have to react to pictures of people holding an object (gun, soda can, wallet, and so forth), study participants were far more likely to mistake a black man as holding a gun when he wasn't - and shooting him - and also far more likely to mistake a white man with a gun as being nonthreatening. We notice race on an immediate preconscious level that affects our perceptions already, and this is also true for sex as well.
We do better by talking about differences and dispelling misconceptions that people have learned through cultural osmosis than we do by pretending that there are no differences.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
I seriously doubt that some men being dicks towards women will ever go away...
I think this topic is important but sometimes it's hard to take seriously because many feminists in the spotlight are so weird and hardcore.
I've read a nice comment about that once and for me this topic indeed boils down to that often...
---
How men see women equality:
Men = women
How women see women quality:
Women > Men
Hypereides
Member
Well that, and the media. But that's whole different topic. There is an active female group that's persueing changes in how fashion magazines and such should percieve and portray the ideal female.
There are many, MANY women who are very concerned about their figure:
Some women I've spoken to, mentioned some of their boyfriends told them they're too fat, have a terrible ass - 'scuse me, 'behind' for the sensitive audience - or weren't fit enough.
It's not surprising some girls develope eating disorders to find their ideal partner.
And here we are, at the core of the issue. If I am not misunderstanding your post, then what you described is nothing more than what the mainstream media's fabricated feminism representations would want you to believe.
Currently, BOTH races suffer from the unhealthy way we manage our gender roles and expectations. There is simply no way to fix a structure like that in a meaningful way that would somehow create an imbalance against man. The only imbalance would be the balancing act itself, where people in position of power would no longer be able to act like an asshole and get away with it.
Of course, that can be perceived as an attack, but in other parts of the society, we never give credit to those claims in the first place. Imagine a thief being angry because the police is about to take away the money he stole in the first place. Absurd, right?
shanshan310
Member
This is interesting. I'd like to see the test replicated in other countries. The 'threat of the dangerous/ drug dealing black man' isn't nearly as pervasive a thought here as it appears to be in the United States, for example.
If people are ignorant about the definition about feminism, and you want them to not be ignorant about the definition of feminism, I don't see how the blame isn't on the movement for portraying the message effectively.
I also don't understand how you can expect them to learn and understand the definition on their own when they've already had ample time to do that, and it really just isn't happening.
Simply from my own experiences, if you were to ask many if they were for the equality of the sexes, the majority would say yes.
On the other hand, if you were to ask them if they were for feminism, that number would differ significantly.
blue_phazon
Member
They do co-exist. Think about it this way: Currently, men have an advantage in society over women. Therefore, a movement on gender equality has to focus on bringing women up to the same level as men.
Hahaha this is hilarious. Maybe you're just so used to having all these privileges that equality for you looks like such a downgrade that women must now be on top.
OrangeJulius
Member
Just because slavery ended, didn't mean that blacks (and other non whites) stopped being treated like 2nd class citizens.
Feminism = Believing women should have equal rights to men. It's a very broad range, and i'm not sure whether your bold example is a straw feminist, or one very extreme person, but the vast majority of feminists do not think that. I believe that the majority of males are feminists in all but self-definition.
I don't think anybody is asking teenage boys to "focus squarely on [girls] problems", just hoping that they won't be absolute dicks towards girls.
I'm not so sure the 'ignore it and it will go away' thing really works. In a way, that has been tried for the last 20 years or so, and not much is changing. I really think that feminism movements are incredibly valuable, simply because sexism is deeply ingrained within society. If we just ignore it, what happens? Suddenly there are going to be a lot more female physicists? Rape is going to go away? Men are going to be given more parental custody? I don't think so.
I don't really understand the desire for a 'rebrand'. Feminism has a lot of history, and the issues facing gender equality is almost exclusively still associated with feminist ideas. It isn't a girls-only club, plenty of men are feminists, and plenty of feminist 'solutions' are about benefitting men as well as women.
captainnapalm
Member
Maybe these girls are just choosing poorly. If you're picking the jock type alpha male, don't be surprised if he acts like an arrogant dick. I find it hard to believe there are no nice guys for these girls to go out with. Maybe they should go have a look who's hanging out in the library. Or the chess room. Or the AV club!
shanshan310
Member
Guys don't have to be dating women to be assholes to them. I don't know if "go hang out with nice men instead" is really effective at dealing with sexism in society.
Who tells these girls who to "pick"? What do you see in the power plays between alpha males and nerds or simply non-arrogant, non-sporting males? This is the kind of complex, deeply interwoven problem that surrounds these issues.
Also, this, basically. It is not as if a classroom's members does not constantly effect each other's lives, and now, thanks to the gifts of social networks, that constant feedback persists even after school.
Must feel good to be in "right" group.
I would say the VAST majority of women I've come across who call them self feminists are like that. They use that word as a weapon, not a stance.
So many debates go like this:
Me: I think X, Y, and Z.
Feminist: You have no idea!
Me: Why?
Feminist: You're male, you don't understand, you're too sad to bother explaining it too. Why don't you go off and perv at some girls like you enjoy doing?
Me: Umm, no? I said X, Y, and Z because of this reason. Explain why you think that's wrong.
Feminist: You're so warped you have no idea. It's funny really you think you're smart and knowledge able. X is clearly wrong because of this reason.
Me: That makes no sense. You ignore Y and Z and focus on a part of X that I wasn't talking about. Explain it with all of those points, don't just cherry pick.
Feminist: *No reply*
Those are the ones that don't give a shit about equal rights.
captainnapalm
Member
I agree. It's not simply girls are good and boys are bad. Or boys have the upper hand, girls are the victims.
You meet some weird people in your dreams
This is funny because those "nice guys/nerds" can be just as sexist and as much of assholes as the jocks.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
You shouldn't water down the movement in an effort to make it more accessible to people who believe the invented stereotype of separatist-cum-radical feminism as everything that feminism is about, you should be trying to elevate them intellectually. I'm all for educating people on what feminism actually is, but there's no need to play to the lowest common denominator.
The problem is that the way you're talking about feminists makes this seem like it could be right. This isn't trying to be a drive-by snipe but your last few posts make it seem like you've already taken a very dim and limited view of anyone who identifies as feminist and the way you're constucting your made up conversations with them has you coming off as impossibly self-rightious to the point where nobody is really going to want to get into this in depth with you, particularly when 'x, y and z' includes opinions like 'eating disorders are a problem created by women', 'I don't want to be lumped in the same group as rapists and abusers because I have a dick. Yet they always try to push that agenda.' and 'They're girls labeling everything sexist and all men should feel bad for being men.'.
Now, I'm not specifically saying that you're some kind of idiot because you've also said that you're for equal rights and all of that, just that you're coming off as someone who makes gross generalisations then defends them vigoriously, making you very tiring to have an actual discussion with.
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