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[ColonelColon]

Wow dude you sound so bitter. I'm sure you're a super nice guy that girls unfairly won't give a chance.)

Funny that you go straight to the virgin/sexually unsuccessful loser card as if that isn't sexist and hurtful to men.

 

[(._.)]

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

that kind of attitude isn't gonna get you a girlfriend

 

[The Albatross]

that kind of attitude isn't gonna get you a girlfriend

that's sexist

 

[demon]

Here is a really good related piece of writing about the microaggressions and shit that women have to put up with all the time, if anyone is interested.

What a load. "Microaggressions that women put up with all the time"? As if men/boys never have to deal with bullying, rude behavior, invasion of personal space and people touching them on the subway? Not exactly a well written piece that gives credence to the cause. I'm sure there are better articles on the internet than this.

Of course I think it is always possible to misinterpret individual events, but given that she is talking about a pattern of behavior and her further explanation that when she doesn't give way that she has to deal with their attempts to push her legs, I don't see any real reason to question it.

I'm a guy and I've experienced my fair share of people's knees touching mine on airplanes and on subways. Who knows how much it really happens to her versus other people and how much she may be misinterpreting it.

 

[Devolution]

Feminists.

Doing too much or not enough.

lol.

 

[captainnapalm]

Funny that you go straight to the virgin/sexually unsuccessful loser card as if that isn't sexist and hurtful to men.

Yeah, that's also not true. I've done alright, thanks.

 

[Devolution]

What a load. "Microaggressions that women put up with all the time"? As if men/boys never have to deal with bullying, rude behavior, invasion of personal space and people touching them on the subway? Not exactly a well written piece that gives credence to the cause. I'm sure there are better articles on the internet than this.


I'm a guy and I've experienced my fair share of people's knees touching mine on airplanes and on subways. Who knows how much it really happens to her versus other people and how much she may be misinterpreting it.

I assume people invade my space because I'm skinny as fuck and they take advantage of how little room I take up. I don't really care though, I'm usually reading a book or paying attention to where I have to get off. There are instances however where my space will be invaded in ways I'm just supposed to accept lest I be "bitchy." That's really the problem.

 

[Fairly Rational]

I can't really help the wide leg stance. I've got long legs (I'm 6'3") and I'm very much aware of how much space I take up. At this point the only time I sit down on a bus or on a train is if I'm exceptionally tired. Most of the time I wind up skulking in some corner. It does bother me that there's the potential I'm being viewed as an aggressive, domineering man because of how I sit. Sometimes it feels like I can't do anything right by these people.

Point being, most tall/bigger guys are fully aware of how much space they take up in public. They have to be lest they bump their head, bump somebody else, or just generally inconvenience other people. Getting pissy for someone "lavaballing" is pretty damn petty.

 

[captainnapalm]

I don't think that's the case, in all honesty.

Anyone who knows me can tell you this: I am one of the nicest people ever. I get walked on a lot simply because I am polite and generally pleasant. And yes, even though I am kind to everyone, I get objectified and harassed by assholes. Perhaps more so than girls who are incredibly rude. Because apparently being kind makes me an easy target. So no, she is not getting this because she is a jerk. Pau is a wonderful woman.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. But being outwardly nice is not enough, though. If you are approaching interactions with people with an inner negativity or even fear or mistrust, that will have an effect. This is how negative views against entire groups of people can end up being like a self-fulfilling prophecy.. I'm not saying this is you.

Also, if you're talking about an impersonal level of harassment from people who are basically strangers, that's also something different. People shouldn't hold any responsibility for attracting that.

 

[User 100115]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. But being outwardly nice is not enough, though. If you are approaching interactions with people with an inner negativity or even fear or mistrust, that will have an effect. This is how negative views against entire groups of people can end up being like a self-fulfilling prophecy.. I'm not saying this is you.

Also, if you're talking about an impersonal level of harassment from people who are basically strangers, that's also something different. People shouldn't hold any responsibility for attracting that.

I have been called 'hilariously naive and trusting' in the past, so no, it's not because I am harboring some deep seated resentment toward folk. I am talking about random strangers thinking it's totally okay to drape an arm around my shoulder and pull me in close while speaking to me. It's a bit unnerving. And has happened more than once.

 

[Devolution]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. But being outwardly nice is not enough, though. If you are approaching interactions with people with an inner negativity or even fear or mistrust, that will have an effect. This is how negative views against entire groups of people can end up being like a self-fulfilling prophecy.. I'm not saying this is you.

Also, if you're talking about an impersonal level of harassment from people who are basically strangers, that's also something different. People shouldn't hold any responsibility for attracting that.

Um no that's not how it works actually. Most women I know have been sexually harassed in one form or another. And in public we tend to let shit slide because we're trying to get somewhere or not be seen as the uptight bitch. At some point the scales tip though and we get told we're "just imagining it" or "full of shit" or "well I don't see it happening so it must not" from men around us or that we have discussions with. It seems that many men think well I don't do this and neither do the men I know so she's probably exaggerating or misunderstanding.

But this is why it's so difficult to get men to understand and sympathize. Many do not want to own up to either some men being that shitty or the fact that not everything is in their purview. There is a whole set of instances they will simply not experience or understand. Instead of maybe trying to listen, a defense mechanism shows up that women must simply be lying. This is why victims of all kinds of sexual harassment don't speak up. Because they're vicitimized all over again with doubts, attacks on their character and their obvious failure to prevent it via their clothes, walk, attitude.

It would be nice to have a discussion about this without the need to shout down the women just trying to be honest and not accusatory.

 

[User 100115]

Um no that's not how it works actually. Most women I know have been sexually harassed in one form or another. And in public we tend to let shit slide because we're trying to get somewhere or not be seen as the uptight bitch. At some point the scales tip though and we get told we're "just imagining it" or "full of shit" or "well I don't see it happening so it must not" from men around us or that we have discussions with. It seems that many men think well I don't do this and neither do the men I know so she's probably exaggerating or misunderstanding.

But this is why it's so difficult to get men to understand and sympathize. Many do not want to own up to either some men being that shitty or the fact that not everything is in their purview. There is a whole set of instances they will simply not experience or understand. Instead of maybe trying to listen, a defense mechanism shows up that women must simply be lying. This is why victims of all kinds of sexual harassment don't speak up. Because they're vicitimized all over again with doubts, attacks on their character and their obvious failure to prevent it via their clothes, walk, attitude.

It would be nice to have a discussion about this without the need to shout down the women just trying to be honest and not accusatory.

What she said, but with more 'like' and 'folk'.

 

[Pau]

So what percentage of men do you think are sexist assholes?

My point was that what you put out there tends to come back to you. Your preconceptions and negative opinions of people will be reinforced. Same with positive ones.

I want to believe that zero percent are, but that's obviously not the case. Or do you honestly expect me to give you a concrete number? And no, when first meeting people (both men and women) I don't assume they're assholes or sexist until they prove otherwise. I just think it's dumb to think that only certain types of people, like jocks, can be assholes or sexist. It's so very high school.

Funny that you go straight to the virgin/sexually unsuccessful loser card as if that isn't sexist and hurtful to men.

He seemed to be lamenting girls not going for nice guys so yeah, that's what I went for. I don't take kindly to people saying that I or any other women deserve negative interaction we get from guys because saying that all types of people can be sexist makes nerds uncomfortable.

But this is why it's so difficult to get men to understand and sympathize. Many do not want to own up to either some men being that shitty or the fact that not everything is in their purview. There is a whole set of instances they will simply not experience or understand. Instead of maybe trying to listen, a defense mechanism shows up that women must simply be lying. This is why victims of all kinds of sexual harassment don't speak up. Because they're vicitimized all over again with doubts, attacks on their character and their obvious failure to prevent it via their clothes, walk, attitude.

It would be nice to have a discussion about this without the need to shout down the women just trying to be honest and not accusatory.

Or we're told that we must think all men are sexist assholes and thus deserve it!

 

[Ydahs]

I don't get it. Isn't a feminist someone who does not subscribe to the traditional role of a woman? They would rather choose their own life's path rather than be forced to follow the path that society chose for them?

What do the people mentioned in the article think of when they hear the word feminism? Why do they see it as such a abhorrent thing?

"For those men we were just legs, breasts and pretty faces."

Heh, sounds familiar.

"I fear that many boys of my age fundamentally don't respect women."

Unfortunately age doesn't have much to do with it. I've seen many people well over the age of 17 who still treat women like junk. Funnily enough, they're also the type of people to say "what are you gay?!" if you try to question them.


Anyway, great article. Thanks for sharing RobotNinjaHornets.

 

[Devolution]

Or we're told that we must think all men are sexist assholes and thus deserve it!

Some men are sexist assholes. I've run into some, I'm going to assume much of girlgaf has. If someone really wants to debate this point then we're in real trouble.

 

[captainnapalm]

I want to believe that zero percent are, but that's obviously not the case. Or do you honestly expect me to give you a concrete number? And no, when first meeting people (both men and women) I don't assume they're assholes or sexist until they prove otherwise. I just think it's dumb to think that only certain types of people, like jocks, can be assholes or sexist. It's so very high school.

Well, high school is the context of this thread, that's why I made that comment in the first place.

 

[Kazerei]

This defensiveness pops up every time a social issue is raised. I don't get it. Nobody is saying "all men are sexist assholes" or "all white people are responsible for racism", and yet that's somehow the way some people are taking it.

 

[Pau]

Well, high school is the context of this thread, that's why I made that comment in the first place.

It wasn't accurate in high school either. That's just where the (incorrect) perception develops.

 

[Kelthink]

This defensiveness pops up every time a social issue is raised. I don't get it. Nobody is saying "all men are sexist assholes" or "all white people are responsible for racism", and yet that's somehow the way some people are taking it.

Some people get very tetchy when they realise they may need to re-evaluate their own attitude(s), as the very implication that they may exhibit deplorable behaviour without realising it forces very defensive/downplaying reactions. Imagine if you were a jerk without knowing! That'll screw you up a bit.

 

[Devolution]

It wasn't accurate in high school either. That's just where the (incorrect) perception develops.

I was a jock and a nerd. There were sexists in both crowds. The jocks were rowdy sexist assholes and the nerds were passive aggressive sexist assholes. Take your pick it was all shit. I just distanced myself from those individuals.

 

[ColonelColon]

Who tells these girls who to "pick"? What do you see in the power plays between alpha males and nerds or simply non-arrogant, non-sporting males? This is the kind of complex, deeply interwoven problem that surrounds these issues.

Biology tells these girls who to pick.

 

[captainnapalm]

It wasn't accurate in high school either. That's just where the (incorrect) perception develops.

It's a generalization that can hardly be viewed as a rule, but I think it has some truth to it. Also, honestly, the comment was a bit tongue in cheek. I was joking about the chess club and stuff.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Man, reading through this thread and the original article about the anecdotes of sexist interactions just makes my head hurt. I grew up in a middle class (maybe slightly below middle class) suburb and went to public schools my whole life and I've spent a fair amount of time in Chicago proper and have used public transportation fairly regularly and all these stories just seem so out of left field and the people just caricatures of what real sexists are. This idea that you're standing behind a girl in line and she kneels down to pick something up and you say "oh, seeing a girl on her knees gives a guy some ideas." Like, what? In what universe does that actually happen? Throwing coffee on people? Lavaballs? This just seems too bizarre for it to actually be real.

 

[shanshan310]

I'm a guy and I've experienced my fair share of people's knees touching mine on airplanes and on subways. Who knows how much it really happens to her versus other people and how much she may be misinterpreting it.

I can't really help the wide leg stance. I've got long legs (I'm 6'3") and I'm very much aware of how much space I take up. At this point the only time I sit down on a bus or on a train is if I'm exceptionally tired. Most of the time I wind up skulking in some corner. It does bother me that there's the potential I'm being viewed as an aggressive, domineering man because of how I sit. Sometimes it feels like I can't do anything right by these people.

Point being, most tall/bigger guys are fully aware of how much space they take up in public. They have to be lest they bump their head, bump somebody else, or just generally inconvenience other people. Getting pissy for someone "lavaballing" is pretty damn petty.

It seems like you and everybody else saying "well it's just for space, it happens to me all the time.." never read this post:

Well, I think most women can tell whether it's intentional or not (but I suppose some of us do get paranoid). When it's not intentional the person usually apologizes or stops and goes back to their personal space but there have been times like she describes that are intentional. There was one guy that sat across from me on the bus and then put his feet up on the chair next to me. When I ignored his gesture he started moving his feet around closer to me (like he wanted to kick my face; he was around 18). There was another time the old man was sitting across from me and stretched his legs out to almost touch my legs. He then began touching my legs with his feet and I glared two holes in his eye sockets and he stopped but I try not to get in a fight with anyone on the bus.

I can say for certain that most women know when it's intentional. Though these things don't occur daily for me (maybe because I'm a recluse) they do have an impact. I don't have this distrust towards all men because of a couple of jerks but it does make me cautious when I go outside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PBeNfSoMqjY

There's a pretty obvious different between a guy doing it because he's cramped and a guy doing it to get attention. It's like saying "well I yawn and stretch my arms all the time, and I'm not doing it to wrap my arm around a girl!".

 

[xelios]

GAF ads at it again..how do they do it?

 

[ZaCH3000]

Pouring coffee on her is a complete asshole move. That crosses the lines into assault. I'm surprised the male in that instance didn't receive a punishment.

Onto a different subject, I think the reason why feminism receives a ton of hate is because of the objectification argument. For one, it isn't a gender exclusive thing, and it's not really an issue. Especially considering its in reference to random guys gawking which lets be real, girls do as much gawking as guys do.

I like the main idea of feminism that woman deserve all the same opportunities in society as men but I hate the fake feminists that use it to complain about things they dislike about men. One of those things being men placing value on a woman's appearance. It's way off based with the original message and that threatens real progress from being made.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

growing up in an abusive household, and being involved with people who are/were sexually abusive, I honestly can't stand the feminist perspective. I've been sexually harrassed by women several times, even friends who know I am romantically involved with other guys. It saddens me that this shit happens, but it's pointing a finger at a demographic which doesn't solve the problem.

I think it's completely unfair what has happened to her and what happens to other women, but all feminism does is create a wall of gender inequality and an us vs them mentality. It sweeps several menacing issues under the rug in hopes of pushing an agenda.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Onto a different subject, I think the reason why feminism receives a ton of hate is because of the objectification argument. For one, it isn't a gender exclusive thing, and it's not really an issue. Especially considering its in reference to random guys gawking which lets be real, girls do as much gawking as guys do.

I would love to live in this fantasy world of yours, instead of our actual world where every statistic usually goes 10 to 1 against women. Please read books and statistics, or open a magazine to see faceless naked women trying to sell the idea of what beauty is supposed to be. Hopefully our daughters won't want to starve themselves or cut their bodies open, because they will see how their worth is being measured by one thing only: their body. Maybe then, you will realize its an issue.

People like you are the reason why rape and sexual assault are diminished even though half of the world population are treated as sub-humans when a random male wants a power trip or to blow a load.

 

[ZaCH3000]

I would love to live in this fantasy world of yours, instead of our actual world where every statistic usually goes 10 to 1 against women. Please read books and statistics, or open a magazine to see faceless naked women trying to sell the idea of what beauty is supposed to be. Hopefully our daughters won't want to starve themselves or cut their bodies open, because they will see how their worth is being measured by one thing only: their body. Maybe then, you will realize its an issue.

People like you are the reason why rape and sexual assault are diminished even though half of the world population are treated as sub-humans when a random male wants a power trip or to blow a load.

Appearance isn't the only thing women in America are measured by. Appearance is important. Dismissing that is a fantasy.

I don't excuse any mistreatment against women or anyone in general. However, stating that checking out girls and making comments on an attractive feature as contributing to a problem is an exaggeration.

Here is how I see it. It's shaming people from being biologically attracted to someone else. Its a scary extreme point of view in my opinion. It's scary because I see it as sexually repressing both sexes to te point where neither sex can express themselves.

Men can certainly learn a lesson from women in this regard. I won't lie, there are times where guys are very forthcoming and uncouth with the comments they make. Women are chatting about guys just as much except in private instead of in the moment. So believe me, I'm not dismissing guys from criticism.

 

[jaxword]

I was a jock and a nerd. There were sexists in both crowds. The jocks were rowdy sexist assholes and the nerds were passive aggressive sexist assholes. Take your pick it was all shit. I just distanced myself from those individuals.

Devo's right here. I went through both as well, straight from the awkward anime nerd posse to the complete opposite, taking up football and hanging with the school jocks. I was kind of a jock for a while too, and, yes, went through my jerk phase. It was really bizarre, the different ways women treated the nerds (somewhat with pity) versus the jocks (somewhat with...fear? pride? both?).

There's no group that's any better or worse.

I will say that the jocks were WAY less ashamed or concerned with repercussions. Basically, the nerds seemed paralyzed with bitterness, while the jocks seemed energized.

Addendum, I think at least 2 of the jocks got date rape charges eventually, but the school year ended before I found out what happened. It was a weird year for me, grade 12, watching these people wreck their lives on both sides.