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[Chuckie]

This is funny because those "nice guys/nerds" can be just as sexist and as much of assholes as the jocks.

And often don't even realize it themselves.

 

[Deified Data]

Must feel good to be in "right" group.

If you perceive being strong in one's convictions as smug self-righteousness it speaks more towards your own insecurity than it does towards mine.

And yes, it does feel good to be right. I see no reason to apologize for being on the right side of history.

 

[MisterNegative]

Still trying to figure out what peer-pressure and starving yourself have to do with Feminism.

 

[Sanky Panky]

If you perceive being strong in one's convictions as smug self-righteousness it speaks more towards your own insecurity than it does towards mine.

And yes, it does feel good to be right. I see no reason to apologize for being on the right side of history.

Yes it does feel good to be born with a penis. Trust me I know.

I don't have to wake up and know that I will be a sexual target, or that one of these days I will be the one in four women that gets raped or assaulted, or that I'm only valued in society on how good of a fuck I would be. I can wear what I want, get pissed drunk, and do all kinds of crazy shit because hey, boys will be boys.

Damn it's good to have the right set of chromosomes.

 

[rocketknight]

Here is a really good related piece of writing about the microaggressions and shit that women have to put up with all the time, if anyone is interested.

 

[Jenga]

"microaggressions"


and what the hell is a trigger warning

I got lavaballed. For those unaware of this amazing term, it’s when someone sits on public transit and, presumably for reasons resulting from an unbearable, scorching heat in their groin, must spread their legs wide. The vast majority of the time, this is a man. The vast majority of the time, they encroach on the personal space of a woman.

When this happens to you, you are dealing with it. The encroachment has already happened; you must respond. You can cross your legs, give way, open the space he’s insisting on. Or you can plant your legs and refuse. This requires physical contact for the duration of your intent, or the duration of his intent to claim what he thinks is his. You run the risk of him taking this as a challenge, as a flirtation, as an offense.

 

[Jenga]

I lavaball all the time, I didn't realize I was such an microaggresive misogynist encroaching on already trigger-warned cis-gender females

did I use those terms correctly

 

[CornBurrito]

I don't know about all that, but realize that these aren't adults we are talking about here, but a bunch of shithead 15-18 year olds.

18 years old isn't adulthood?

 

[Pau]

"microaggressions"


and what the hell is a trigger warning

A trigger warning is for people who have PTSD. For example, there rape victims who have PTSD and are "triggered" by a rape scene in a movie or tv show.

 

[stufte]

18 years old isn't adulthood?

Maybe legally, but 18 is hardly the age of a fully matured (mentally and physically) adult.

 

[Soler]

Maybe legally, but 18 is hardly the age of a fully matured (mentally and physically) adult.

There is no age for mental maturity

 

[stufte]

There is no age for mental maturity

That's what I'm saying.

 

[Enosh]

Feminism = Believing women should have equal rights to men. It's a very broad range, and i'm not sure whether your bold example is a straw feminist, or one very extreme person, but the vast majority of feminists do not think that. I believe that the majority of males are feminists in all but self-definition.

yet feminism also has elements in it that argue that women should have more rights than men
which doesn't agree with your definition
imho feminism = movement for the advancement of women rights

And here we are, at the core of the issue. If I am not misunderstanding your post, then what you described is nothing more than what the mainstream media's fabricated feminism representations would want you to believe.

excuse me if I don't buy the already left US mainstream media being out to get feminist

 

[shanshan310]

yet feminism also has elements in it that argue that women should have more rights than men
which doesn't agree with your definition
imho feminism = movement for the advancement of women rights

excuse me if I don't buy the already left US mainstream media being out to get feminist

Wait, you think US mainstream media is left wing? hahahahaahaha.

Sadly your honest opinion doesn't reflect the actual definition as defined by feminists.

 

[Vermillion]

So this is pretty disgusting. And people say that sexism is finished.

I don't think I've heard that in life. But I suppose it probably has happened.

 

[meltingparappa]

I don't think I've heard that in life. But I suppose it probably has happened.

The great thing about these discussions is that anytime you want to call out a claim as a strawman, there are probably a dozen of people actually saying the most ridiculous statement imaginable.

 

[Kinyou]

"microaggressions"


and what the hell is a trigger warning

That "lavaball" lady might actually have some mental issues. I mean it sounds quite paranoid.

 

[Vermillion]

The great thing about these discussions is that anytime you want to call out a claim as a strawman, there are probably a dozen of people actually saying the most ridiculous statement imaginable.

Eh, I don't have all the world's experience. I'm just adding a relatively basic comment, because that's one of the things that I thought about.

EDIT: To that end, the story in the OP doesn't even remotely surprise me.

 

[Dude Abides]

That "lavaball" lady might actually have some mental issues. I mean it sounds quite paranoid.

Not really. She's saying that some men occasionally deliberately invade a woman's space on the subway by sitting down and spreading their legs wide. She also describes in detail several other ways in which some, not all, men express dominance over women.

Hard to see how describing this suggests she has "mental issues."

 

[Vermillion]

Not really. She's saying that some men occasionally deliberately invade a woman's space on the subway by sitting down and spreading their legs wide. She also describes in detail several other ways in which some, not all, men express dominance over women.

Hard to see how describing this suggests she has "mental issues."

They could just be inconsiderate assholes. Maybe it's not the same thing, but I've had to sit in the back of the car with people many times, and I'm crushing my legs together while they're sitting comfortably.

Plus, "legs wide open" pose is an indicator of confidence or something like that, and so these people are probably just sitting how they want to.

I dunno.

 

[Kinyou]

Not really. She's saying that some men occasionally deliberately invade a woman's space on the subway by sitting down and spreading their legs wide. She also describes in detail several other ways in which some, not all, men express dominance over women.

Hard to see how describing this suggests she has "mental issues."

When you pass a group of people and hear someone laughing, you can either think that someone just told a joke or you can think that they're laughing at you. To me it sounds like she does the latter just times ten.
Not everything has to be a personal attack.

 

[Mumei]

Not everything has to be a personal attack.

I agree, but most of the things she is describing appear to be direct personal interaction where a man is failing to respect her physical boundaries.

 

[Unbounded]

Not really. She's saying that some men occasionally deliberately invade a woman's space on the subway by sitting down and spreading their legs wide. She also describes in detail several other ways in which some, not all, men express dominance over women.

Hard to see how describing this suggests she has "mental issues."

I always sit with my legs open wide. It has nothing to do with the fact that I'm trying to invade anyone's space or that I'm trying to express dominance over anyone.

It's because occasionally when I keep my legs closed I start crushing my important parts, and I don't exactly enjoy crushing those parts, nor is there any way to reposition in that immediate situation without sticking my hands down my pants.

Also, balls do get sweaty and uncomfortable. Opening your legs is one way to deal with that.

 

[Dude Abides]

They could just be inconsiderate assholes. Maybe it's not the same thing, but I've had to sit in the back of the car with people many times, and I'm crushing my legs together while they're sitting comfortably.

Plus, "legs wide open" pose is an indicator of confidence or something like that, and so these people are probably just sitting how they want to.

I dunno.

Indeed they could just be inconsiderate assholes. She didn't do a scientific study. Personally, I haven't ever had a dude plop down next to me and try to take up my leg room. She states she has, and has observed other similar situations.

When you pass a group of people and hear someone laughing, you can either think that someone just told a joke or you can think that they're laughing at you. To me it sounds like she does the latter just times ten.
Not everything has to be a personal attack.

Of course it does to you, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about the fact that she has a different view. But, of course, that could be because you've never been in a position to notice it. I don't see why your view is more likely to describe reality than hers.

I always sit with my legs open wide. It has nothing to do with the fact that I'm trying to invade anyone's space or that I'm trying to express dominance over anyone.

It's because occasionally when I keep my legs closed I start crushing my important parts, and I don't exactly enjoy crushing those parts, nor is there any way to reposition in that immediate situation without sticking my hands down my pants.

Also, balls do get sweaty and uncomfortable. Opening your legs is one way to deal with that.

Good for you. While it is undoubtedly comfortable to sit with one's legs spread wide, often in a professional setting I am unable to sit with my legs in that fashion, since doing so makes you look like someone who should be spitting tobaccy juice in a tin and talking about his smell hound. On the rare occasions that it causes me ball discomfort or ball heat I've found that relatively easy to remedy by shifting positions without necessitating a Larry the Cable Guy pose.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

imho feminism = movement for the advancement of women rights

Which rights? Feminism seems to me more about fighting to put the rights women ostensibly already have into practice.

 

[Warren Ellis]

in my experience, feminist = someone who thinks that every single thing a man does (and has done in the past, because she feels i am responsible for thousands of years of patriarchism) to a women is sexist, surely not someone who thinks that men and women should have the same rights.

yes, probably not every self-defined feminist is like this (or at least i hope so), but why i shouldn't generalize if they do it to men ?

 

[Vermillion]

Indeed they could just be inconsiderate assholes. She didn't do a scientific study. Personally, I haven't ever had a dude plop down next to me and try to take up my leg room. She states she has, and has observed other similar situations.

That's fair. To be honest, though, I also find it odd that her response is to wage a silent war and making assumptions about what the other person is doing. I think that the results would be more conclusive if she ever asked the person to excuse their foot. Their response would certainly be telling as to why they're doing what they're doing. Some may be assholes, some may be tired and/or oblivious to the world around them.

 

[Unbounded]

Good for you. While it is undoubtedly comfortable to sit with one's legs spread wide, often in a professional setting I am unable to sit with my legs in that fashion, since doing so makes you look like someone who should be spitting tobaccy juice in a tin and talking about his smell hound. On the rare occasions that it causes me ball discomfort or ball heat I've found that relatively easy to remedy by shifting positions without necessitating a Larry the Cable Guy pose.

Please tell me of this miracle position that relieves you of all ball problems without opening your legs.

 

[Coffee Dog]

in my experience, feminist = someone who thinks that every single thing a man does (and has done in the past, because she feels i am responsible for thousands of years of patriarchism) to a women is sexist, surely not someone who thinks that men and women should have the same rights.

yes, probably not every self-defined feminist is like this (or at least i hope so), but why i shouldn't generalize if they do it to men ?

Someone ring the anecdotal evidence bell!

Edit: also, you shouldn't generalize because typically if you disagree with a behaviour you shouldn't perpetuate it, genius.

 

[tsumineko]

Real feminism is about fighting for equality for any discriminated group, not only females, and has no element of superiority. If you say you're against feminism, you're saying you're against equality.

I'm happy this story is being told, it just goes to show how far humanity hasn't come.

 

[(._.)]

This is funny because those "nice guys/nerds" can be just as sexist and as much of assholes as the jocks.

They're the worst. Some of them on NeoGAF. At least most of the 'jocky/dbag/etc' type assholes are bold and brash about it. Hard to tell with others until you actually know them.

guy who owns a fedora: "Oh hey we're friends but I like you so lets have sex and date."

girl: "I don't feel that way about you sorry."

guy who owns fedora to his friends and internet: "fuck what a stupid cunt I'm so edgy I'm gonna stop being friends with her I'm forever alone lol."

 

[Kinyou]

I agree, but most of the things she is describing appear to be direct personal interaction where a man is failing to respect her physical boundaries.

In contrast to other examples she brings up like catcalling it still sounds a little vague. There is no question about the intentions of the guy shouting after a woman, while some guy spreading his legs (btw. tall persons have to do that quite often) seems like a passive thing that can easily be misinterpreted.

 

[eucharis]

In contrast to other examples she brings up like catcalling it still sounds a little vague. There is no question about the intentions of the guy shouting after a woman, while some guy spreading his legs (btw. tall persons have to do that quite often) seems like a passive thing that can easily be misinterpreted.

Well, I think most women can tell whether it's intentional or not (but I suppose some of us do get paranoid). When it's not intentional the person usually apologizes or stops and goes back to their personal space but there have been times like she describes that are intentional. There was one guy that sat across from me on the bus and then put his feet up on the chair next to me. When I ignored his gesture he started moving his feet around closer to me (like he wanted to kick my face; he was around 18). There was another time the old man was sitting across from me and stretched his legs out to almost touch my legs. He then began touching my legs with his feet and I glared two holes in his eye sockets and he stopped but I try not to get in a fight with anyone on the bus.

I can say for certain that most women know when it's intentional. Though these things don't occur daily for me (maybe because I'm a recluse) they do have an impact. I don't have this distrust towards all men because of a couple of jerks but it does make me cautious when I go outside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PBeNfSoMqjY

 

[captainnapalm]

They're the worst. Some of them on NeoGAF. At least most of the 'jocky/dbag/etc' type assholes are bold and brash about it. Hard to tell with others until you actually know them.

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

 

[Dude Abides]

That's fair. To be honest, though, I also find it odd that her response is to wage a silent war and making assumptions about what the other person is doing. I think that the results would be more conclusive if she ever asked the person to excuse their foot. Their response would certainly be telling as to why they're doing what they're doing. Some may be assholes, some may be tired and/or oblivious to the world around them.

Could be. There is a lot of creeper behavior on the subway, I don't think it's unreasonable for her to suspect this might be of a piece.

Please tell me of this miracle position that relieves you of all ball problems without opening your legs.

Uh, as long as my balls aren't squashed between my legs I'm generally good. We're not talking about having your legs a bit open, were talking about spreading them wide, as if you were sitting backwards on a chair with a back. Are you overweight perhaps?

In contrast to other examples she brings up like catcalling it still sounds a little vague. There is no question about the intentions of the guy shouting after a woman, while some guy spreading his legs (btw. tall persons have to do that quite often) seems like a passive thing that can easily be misinterpreted.

I'm 6'6" 260 and I've never had to sit with my legs super wide so as to necessitate rubbing up against the person next to me.

 

[shanshan310]

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

Incredible.

Spoiler

psst, I'm pretty sure that poster is male.

 

[Gawge]

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

What a perfect circular argument. Women, know your place!

 

[Vermillion]

Could be. There is a lot of creeper behavior on the subway, I don't think it's unreasonable for her to suspect this might be of a piece.

I suppose - I just feel like it'll cause people to incorrectly assume sexist motives.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

Lovely.

 

[Darklord]

The problem is that the way you're talking about feminists makes this seem like it could be right. This isn't trying to be a drive-by snipe but your last few posts make it seem like you've already taken a very dim and limited view of anyone who identifies as feminist and the way you're constucting your made up conversations with them has you coming off as impossibly self-rightious to the point where nobody is really going to want to get into this in depth with you, particularly when 'x, y and z' includes opinions like 'eating disorders are a problem created by women', 'I don't want to be lumped in the same group as rapists and abusers because I have a dick. Yet they always try to push that agenda.' and 'They're girls labeling everything sexist and all men should feel bad for being men.'.

Now, I'm not specifically saying that you're some kind of idiot because you've also said that you're for equal rights and all of that, just that you're coming off as someone who makes gross generalisations then defends them vigoriously, making you very tiring to have an actual discussion with.

Eating disorders are more than not created by bullying from other girls or just the general idea from media. I've heard of it tons of times. Maybe I've just missed the ones created my a lot of males but I've literally seen girls target other girls with the intent of making her end up with a eating disorder. I'm not saying it's ONLY from other women but to say it's a male sexist thing is stretching it. It's a gender neutral issue.

If I came off as self-righteous then I didn't mean too, I didn't think I had even posted enough in here to defend anything vigorously, but those statements are true from my opinion because just about every self proclaimed feminist I've met is like that. I'm sure there are plenty with just equal rights in mind, good on them, I'm not against feminists. I'm not opposed to seeing things from their view.
I'm against those people(yes, some men too) who use that word to try and break everything down into gender classes and try to make men feel bad for being men. No, I'm not going to hang my head in shame because I like video games or boobs. It's similar to those people who cry racism at the sight of a black guy that they decide must have some deep rooted hate meaning to it. Even on here. I once made a joke in a topic about two 80 year old prostitutes that had had sex something like 300,000 times. Pretty clearly something worth having a light hearted laugh over, I did, until someone started saying it was misogynistic, and then I was apparently slut shaming, and then calling me a basement dwelling virgin because how dare I make a joke about women(which I also found hypocritical calling me that because they were offended at a sex related joke). Really? That isn't equal rights.
I hate all kinds of PC groups that try and do those things. Not just this. I'm pro-equal rights to everyone, women, gays, all people should be equal. I just see people as equal but different. Same playing field, different spot, you know? Just don't demand I see things your way and speak down to me if I don't.

 

[Necromanti]

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

Yes, let us not call out people on their potentially damaging mindsets. Maybe once women stop deserving to be harassed, we can start doing something about it. (P.S. I have no clue where you got the "virtually all guys" from.)

I'm against those people(yes, some men too) who use that word to try and break everything down into gender classes and try to make men feel bad for being men.

Most of those supposed criticisms are imagined and perceived as personal attacks. It's the same thing that happens with race discussions. When things like white privilege and stuff gets brought up, you'll have a group of people going on about how it's all just "white guilt"/anti-white sentiment trying to make people feel ashamed of being white. People can't seem to differentiate between a system and the people who fall victim to it. And it affects everyone. Everyone is equally responsible, and yet no one is person is to blame.

You can never use the anecdotal extremist as the standard to which you judge every person who may claim to believe in an ideology. If I did, I would be just as dismissive of every man, woman, Muslim, Christian, white, black, etc. that ever graced the earth. It's a mindset that is so attractive to people, but cannot possibly be any more frustrating. The most self-limiting thing a person can do is become too set in their ways and beliefs to the point that they cling to them for the sake of comfort, or to spite others out of irrationality rather than attempting to reach a common ground with respect.

 

[thesoapster]

I didn't go to public schools, so the classes were much, much smaller. Maybe that cut down on a lot of it. I don't know. I didn't see these male attitudes almost ever, save for maybe one or two assholes that eventually got kicked out of school. Could also be due to cultural differences in another country/region? I believe every word of it and I know it goes on, but it's still surprising to think about when I look back.

Uh... This is some really creepy shit right here.

Indeed...

 

[Uncle]

Here is a really good related piece of writing about the microaggressions and shit that women have to put up with all the time, if anyone is interested.

From Chapter 7, “Physical Escalation and Sex”:

The concept of “waiting for signs” or “Indicators of Interest” was commonplace in older pickup theory. It is 100% garbage and needs to be erased from the face of the planet.
Never, ever, ever, wait for a SIGN before you escalate! You will miss out on the vast majority of chances if you sit around waiting for SIGNS. Men are notoriously bad at reading women’s minds and body language. Don’t think that you’re any different. From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished. It’s a difference in mindset that makes champs champs and chumps chumps..It is YOUR JOB, as the man, to lead the interaction. Be playful. Spin her around. Pick her up. Push her away as a tease and then pull her back in.
Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.

Uh... This is some really creepy shit right here.

 

[FoxSpirit]

I'll not argue in such a toxic thread and this is not directly concerning the OP but: hardcore feminists have their own share of psychological pitfalls and together with catholic sexual morality and brutal discourse, I suffered heavily.

Don't look, don't even think that way. You swine, you perv, you woman objectifier. Thanks :-(

 

[Sanky Panky]

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

I'm a guy and I don't feel or act like a sexist asshole, so it allows me to empathize with women who are harassed by said assholes. Is there a reason why you think that is an attack upon your self?

 

[Pau]

Got it, virtually all guys are sexist assholes.

If your opinion of men is that low, you deserve every negative interaction with them you get.

Wow dude you sound so bitter. I'm sure you're a super nice guy that girls unfairly won't give a chance.

You know, when you're not telling them they deserve to be treated badly.

Also, I never said virtually all guys are sexist assholes. I said any "type" of guy can be. But thanks for proving you're one of the assholes.

 

[Mumei]

In contrast to other examples she brings up like catcalling it still sounds a little vague. There is no question about the intentions of the guy shouting after a woman, while some guy spreading his legs (btw. tall persons have to do that quite often) seems like a passive thing that can easily be misinterpreted.

Sure, tall people sometimes have to spread their legs out more. I have taken a bus to Chicago on two occasions in the last few years, and on two of the trips I sat next to a man who didn't sit with his legs super-spread out, but just enough so that his knees weren't digging into the seat in front of him. But he wasn't trying to invade my space or push against my leg or generally being, you know, creepy. He still mostly kept within his own area and any invasion of my personal space or touching me was minimal. I felt this was understandable and it didn't bother me much. But this doesn't sound like what she was describing; she sounds like she is describing someone who is sitting with as wide a stance as possible in an environment (a city bus) which has seat arrangements that are nearly as tall-people unfriendly.

Of course I think it is always possible to misinterpret individual events, but given that she is talking about a pattern of behavior and her further explanation that when she doesn't give way that she has to deal with their attempts to push her legs, I don't see any real reason to question it.

 

[captainnapalm]

Wow dude you sound so bitter. I'm sure you're a super nice guy that girls unfairly won't give a chance.

You know, when you're not telling them they deserve to be treated badly.

Also, I never said virtually all guys are sexist assholes. I said any "type" of guy can be. But thanks for proving you're one of the assholes.

So what percentage of men do you think are sexist assholes?

My point was that what you put out there tends to come back to you. Your preconceptions and negative opinions of people will be reinforced. Same with positive ones.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Of course... Modern society built on 6000+ years of patriarchal society and certain gender roles/norms isn't going away soon.

It's even worse when you consider the future of economic and industrial power is in countries like India and China where women have way less rights.

As an aside, I've noticed that there is a growing backlash against social issues recently. Example, after the Kotaku articles on sexism in games, which many concluded were manufactured controversy, I noticed in a lot of other related threads, comments like 'better not let Kotaku know', 'was this written by Kotaku'. It really hampered discourse on the subject.

I think it's changing, but it'll take time, but I don't think we'll ever have true gender equality. Just not possible, just as no racism is not possible etc.

Problem is some of it, in particular some of the Kotaku stuff IS manufactured controversy click bait trash, and it takes away from legitimate problems because the click bait makes some people take the legit stuff less seriously.

 

[User 100115]

So what percentage of men do you think are sexist assholes?

My point was that what you put out there tends to come back to you. Your preconceptions and negative opinions of people will be reinforced. Same with positive ones.

I don't think that's the case, in all honesty.

Anyone who knows me can tell you this: I am one of the nicest people ever. I get walked on a lot simply because I am polite and generally pleasant. And yes, even though I am kind to everyone, I get objectified and harassed by assholes. Perhaps more so than girls who are incredibly rude. Because apparently being kind makes me an easy target. So no, she is not getting this because she is a jerk. Pau is a wonderful woman.