But they could overclock it with a firmware update. It works both ways. If the cooling system really is very efficient (jugding by console size and space + fan size it looks to be) I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen...considering how many people do it on PC without any issues.
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Xbox boss says hardware analysis between consoles is meaningless
- Thread starter Elginer
- Start date
But they could overclock it with a firmware update. It works both ways. If the cooling system really is very efficient (jugding by console size and space + fan size it looks to be) I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen...considering how many people do it on PC without any issues.
GoofsterStud
Member
Uh...oh...hmmm...what?
No they couldn't. Not unless every single APU comes off the production line and successfully tests to run at the higher clock rate. And they also test the cooling to guarantee it copes with the extra heat from the higher clock. And that they don't exceed their TDP. A small clock increase can see a disproportional increase in power usage.
Overclocking in the consumer space only works on a per-chip basis. Some can overclock, and some overclock higher than others. A console is a fixed platform, where this variation isn't acceptable*.
* Apart from in the final 1.6 revision of the original Xbox, where MS did a RAM speed test during start up. As they started to source RAM of different quality from different vendors, so you had some Xboxes with faster RAM than others. A couple of my friend who were living together each had Xboxes. One friend's Xbox always seemed to take far longer to load games than the others. The actual RAM inside must have been the cause.
Duxxy3
Member
So the firmware update fries a whole bunch of xbox ones?
Console makers have one shot to get it right.
Please stahp.. They can't just overclock after shipping the consoles just because they feel like it. Too many variables to take into consideration for this to even happen, and with so many variables it's impossible to make sure each variable passes the test.
You have great tech knowledge, but everyone post I've read from you has been in 100% FULL defense of Microsoft.
As for your claim of latency being better than GDDR5 that has already been proven as a myth and 100% wrong in the DF thread.
I thought GDDR5 did have higher latency not because of clocks or nanoseconds, but because of the memory controller. Don't think there is a GDDR5 memory controller that is low on latency.
Am I wrong here?
Asking the wrong dude tbh man. I read the entire DF thread just for shits and giggles and it was like reading advanced calculus.
I do remember the post about the latency issue being a myth and the dude had cited sources and everything. Not only that but I also saw in the thread that the PS4 added another zero-latency bus to combat the issue (I think that's the right wording)
Yeah, the closest we'll ever see are CPUs all reliably built for one speed, but downclocked not for reliability but for battery usage, as we saw with PSP and as Apple frequently does. No other way do I see us getting a system just going faster later on.
that is absolute BS . Dont listen to any of that BS that guy says. For 8 g GDDR5 latency is no issue. I repeat 100% null issue. DDR3 runs at 1.25 - 1.6V vs 1V for GDDR5 so chances of overheating are there for Xbone since we are also talking 5 B transistors. There could have been an issue with GDDR5 had SONY included lets say 2g of it. Then SONY could have toned its blazing speed to mitigate for low latency
That slow DDR3 ram even in plentiful supply will not rival anything that could be possible with GDDR5
Yeah I know latency is not an issue on the PS4 due to the modifications they did to the PS4 such as the different buses and the CPU is an OOO CPU, so latency shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Just wondering about memory controllers. That's it.
To be honest, i agree with the point he's making. Unless the gap is large enough to create big disparity between two consoles (like the wii vs ps3/360), it isn't very meaningful. The PS4 is stronger than the Xbox One, but most multiplats will likely look the same between the two consoles, with the exclusives only really differentiating in terms of visuals (and im not even convinced its gonna be all that much, or enough that i personally will care).
That being said, im not getting either console initially, and when i do buy one its likely going to be the PS4
That being said, im not getting either console initially, and when i do buy one its likely going to be the PS4
Duxxy3
Member
That's what we thought would happen with the PS3 and 360. That didn't really happen.
The retail consoles for both are already being made as we speak though. No way to change anything now.
Most multiplats wont look the same . There is a significant disparity in the power of the 2 consoles which are based on same PC based architecture . Also many people are not saying this but DDR3 has overheating issues as it runs on a much higher voltage . The consoles are such that anyone can extract their full powers since they are virtually that easy to code for. Unless devs willingly make multiplats look equal , there will noticeable differences. This is not PS3 vs xbox 360 scenario , where only first party devs went extra mile to make ps3 games stand out from competition, as ps3 was a pain to code for .
dude are you joking? Both consoles are being mass produced in limited quantities as we speak
If that was the case then why does it work successfully like 90% of the time on PCs?
I'm not an expert on overclocking but it seems possible - hasn't this been done on consoles before...PSP or DS? Either way it's not going to make the Xbox One more powerful than the PS4
Yep, exactly. Call me when Sony says the hardware analysis is meaningless. Also, lol at this little bit of hypocrisy:
Says the guy working for the company that proudly reported the transistor count of the APU but won't reveal the actual clock speed of the GPU.
speculawyer
Member
Confirmed.
GoofsterStud
Member
If that was the case then why does it work successfully like 90% of the time on PCs?
I'm not an expert on overclocking but it seems possible - hasn't this been done on consoles before...PSP or DS? Either way it's not going to make the Xbox One more powerful than the PS4
For one each chip has different requirements. Produce different heat, need different electricity to achieve such overclock...and some don't even overclock at all.
So you just created a situations where
10% Won't work
5% burn out the power supplies
20% have overheating problems
Now how do you figure what is the right amount of watts for each chip to achieve said overclock.
It's just not worth it.
Calm down, warrior. I'm getting both consoles so i don't have to "deal with" shit. Frankly i haven't seen anything that look substantially worse than what was shown on the PS4 at E3.
The more complicated, the more likely the chip is to fail in manufacturing, thus leading to low yields like there have been rumors of for the XB1 chip.
None of the launch window games were developed with the finalized hardware in mind. If there is a difference, we won't be seeing it until at least a year out from console launch.
Yep. More power draw, more heat produced, larger chip, less efficient, and lower yields during production.
Do you have a source for this?
A GAF member wrote up a great explanation about chip manufacturing and yields in the CBOAT Truthfact thread.
CBOAT
If that was the case then why does it work successfully like 90% of the time on PCs?
I'm not an expert on overclocking but it seems possible - hasn't this been done on consoles before...PSP or DS? Either way it's not going to make the Xbox One more powerful than the PS4
PSP is the only one that was overclocked, and that was because before shipping they downclocked due to battery life. But each piece of the PSP was created for it's original clock speed, that's why sony let devs overclock the PSP right back to it's original intended clock.
That means that the PSP is NOT an overclock at all, but a return to original intended clock speed.
Also locked down consoles != PCs because PCs are open platform and each owner of one has access and control of all parts of the PC. That's not the case for consoles.
I'm looking for a general source about transistor counts leading to a more complicated chip which is harder to manufacture, and resulting in a lower yield. You know something written by an industrial/computer hardware engineer.
Thug Waffle
Member
What about the people debating who do know what they're talking about?
http://www.zdnet.com/inside-ibms-300mm-chip-fab-photos_p2-7000008903/
The East Fishkill fab turns out the company's 32nm Power7 chips. Such is their complexity, they require 1,200 separate steps to make, and have a yield of around 50-60 percent, according to Arthur. "The size and complexity of the chip generally dictates the yield," he explains. "A smaller chip with less function will yield higher, a more complex chip with more function will generally yield less. Some of our OEM chips have yields that are in the 90s."
so a really complex, x billions transistor SOC will yield?
I dont get it. They are using DDR3 ram and also 5b transistors on the die. I mean no wonder Xbone has a very big cooling fan
Thank you, but that is just a paragraph from a popular press source in which transistor counts isn't mentioned.
Sony has specificly stated they are not in volume production yet. For both consoles with a nov launch date they most likely wont hit production until the end of august/ early sept for the chips. Delay that a few weeks for the first chips to hit the assembly line for the finished console.
CouldBeWorse
Member
My point was simple - all that ultimately matters is how people take advantage of the power. Power for power's sake is pointless.
Is it that black and white? You're either 100% against the Bone or you're branded as a defender? This reminds me of growing up in Birmingham, Alabama and then moving into my professional career. I grew up being called a city boy by my family from small town North Alabama but when I started my career in business consulting, I was essentially called a country boy.
The same is true here. In my real life where I have a lot of Xbox-preferring friends, I've been warning them about the consumer unfriendly policies (among other things) of the Bone and have been pushing the PS4 as a viable replacement. However, when posting on a forum that is overwhelmingly pro-PS4, I get labeled a Bone defender because I'm not 100% against. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.
While I did prefer the 360 last time, my preferences are ever changing. I've gotten every major system (including handhelds) at launch (with the exception of Saturn and Wii U) since 1991 when I got my SNES. My preferences have gone NES > SNES > PS1 > DC > PS2 > 360 in that order over the years (and even within certain generations, I've had some very specific loves that almost swayed the whole generation for me like Goldeneye and Halo). I just love games and I already have both new systems preordered.
It's terrible that people have to qualify themselves when giving opinions to avoid stupid labels. Is that what we want this forum to become?
As to your second point, there are plenty of other threads about pure power. I thought the whole point of this thread variant was to have a slightly different discussion that is NOT just about pure power.
really are you that desperate to defend MS? that is a direct quote from an IBM fab, they just make shit up in advance to make MS look bad.
a 32nm power 7 runs to about 2.1billion transistors. you can work out that if that is a complex chip, imagine a 5 billion transistor chip.
He mentions size and complexity of the chip. More transistors = larger and more complex chip. Larger and more complex chip = lower yields. These are basic concepts that hold true for any company's chip design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count
I agree with this, but you also have to agree that more power allows people to do more stuff compared to less power.
And since both consoles seem to be optimized for higher throughput to their theoretical power, I am static to see how devs use them.
But they are in limited production. Final silicon is being made, and has been for some time (how else could E3 games be seen running on PS4 hardware?). The manufacturing process will be in-progress to maximise yields, but the actual APU design will be set in stone. Neither MS or Sony are in a position to make hardware changes (more CUs, more CPU core etc) at this stage. Which was the point I was replying to.
As an example, the 360 launched in November 2005. MS were in full production by July 2005.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I can't
CouldBeWorse
Member
I'm not sure that I ever said or implied otherwise. That's an objectively correct statement when boiled down to what you state.
What will be interesting will be to see if the extra power is such that it allows developers to actually add to the games in some core way or will it just be used for more particles/polys/effects/etc.
Great, I'm glad you agree that the Playstation 4 is more powerful than the XBONE.
Now that Couldbeworse agrees that Sony has the more powerful machine, let's wait till the games launch to start the conversation about how the power is used.
It is meaningless. As much as I don't like the Xbox One, the games are going to look identical. They DID look identical at E3. I have a high-end PC from 2009 and there's nothing I can't run perfectly now, with very few graphical differences. The PS4 and Xbox One are even closer in power than what I have versus PCs nowadays.
This isn't actually true. Chips can be made a long time before release. They have to sample chips and then run them and make sure everything works. Then they will do respins at the metal layer or in really bad cases change design points and start all over again.
Developers may have final chips at this point Or they could simply have chips from earlier in the process. We really don't know. But there is a difference between today and full production mode. Some respins take as little as a month so both companies can still be tweaking things for the best yields / clock speeds.
Also its not impossible that either console gets a bump in ram . Since that wouldn't affect anything for launch games.
Yes, it's a common practice to improve yields. I'm surprised you didn't know.SPE said:
Mass produced in limited quantities is an oxymoron. Until the boxes are shipped there's always the option to make changes. MS still doesn't have a launch date for the ps4 so I see no reason why Sony couldn't bump up the clocks on July 1st for a late December launch.
If that was the case then why does it work successfully like 90% of the time on PCs?
I'm not an expert on overclocking but it seems possible - hasn't this been done on consoles before...PSP or DS? Either way it's not going to make the Xbox One more powerful than the PS4
Someone already explained this before your post. Notice how PC gamers talk about how far they can push their overclocks of the same hardware with one being sometimes higher than the other regardless of temperatures? All chips aren't created equal when overclocking and it's a luxury console manufacturers can't afford to do enough to make any sort of difference at all. Even if it worked 90% of the time, that 10% adds up to quite a bit on top of everything else when they're already having to manufacture the consoles in time for the holiday meaning there's little room to work with, especially if MS was having issues to begin with.
You have to have a standardized piece of hardware for console gaming and individually overclocking them all and testing each one out to make sure it can even handle it just adds more time and money to an already tight schedule to get these things ready.
Although similar in architecture, PC's are still different from consoles as they're all individual and treated differently without having to conform to some set standard. I can push my PC all I want, but that's not easy for Microsoft when there's so many other factors to worry about.
But like I said, if they actually did manage, it wouldn't be enough to change anything drastically anyway.
I'm not bashing MS but rather stating it's better to be a little realistic here and don't expect miracles through overclocking just like Sony couldn't do something drastic at this point either. They're getting ready for war right now and the troops are mobilizing already so it's too late to change each soldier's weapon right before battle.
Templar_Dante
Banned
It wont be possible as you will almost surely have random X1s break worldwide. What they havnt tested for, they wont EVER overclock. Ever. Never. Ever.
You cant compare it to PC.
hooijdonk17
Member
This is as close to an admission of inferiority as you will ever get. I for one enjoyed it with a chuckle and a sip of my tea. I would post a gif if I had one.