Nobody knows the -precise- truth, which only means we don't know the -precise- gap in power. We do know there is a gap in power, and we know it is fairly sizable, and we know that at various points, the company you work for has said "We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics. We targeted it more as a broad entertainment play." This is a Nintendo-like comment; no company who is in command of the most powerful platform (or even a system that is competitive in any way technically) says things like this. They know they're weaker too: and that is the truth. Trying to say "nobody knows the truth" only obfuscates the larger reality. Yes, we don't know the truth down to the bits and bytes, but we do know the big picture. XB1 is significantly weaker than PS4.
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Xbox boss says hardware analysis between consoles is meaningless
- Thread starter Elginer
- Start date
Nobody knows the -precise- truth, which only means we don't know the -precise- gap in power. We do know there is a gap in power, and we know it is fairly sizable, and we know that at various points, the company you work for has said "We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics. We targeted it more as a broad entertainment play." This is a Nintendo-like comment; no company who is in command of the most powerful platform (or even a system that is competitive in any way technically) says things like this. They know they're weaker too: and that is the truth. Trying to say "nobody knows the truth" only obfuscates the larger reality. Yes, we don't know the truth down to the bits and bytes, but we do know the big picture. XB1 is significantly weaker than PS4.
Monumental
Banned
SHOCKING: Internet detectives being ended up being shit.
Can Crusher
Banned
edit: I was way too high when I wrote this post, I'm writing what I'm already while I'm still too high, such I'm hearing Kanye West in You're Amazing singing my post
SHOCKING: A derailed issue in a thread still has no relation to the bigger picture and the point of the thread.
Excuse me for taking informations provided by the person in question himself at face-value... my bad...
Monumental post.
Bornstellar
Member
Regardless, you come off badly.
EDIT: And just because I can, I looked him up on Lync - his contact card has Director of Product Planning. So regardless of what previous experience he has had, he is not currently in PR.
SwiftDeath
Member
you just stealth edited
My post becomes moot
My post becomes moot
MightyHedgehog
Member
Can you talk about the 'rumored' Data Move Engines? Was the idea specifically that reclaiming lost cycles due to preventing cache misses and stalls strong enough to provide a significant boost to average performance? Is it possible to be further enabled by developer-decided custom data prefetching and layouts or is it better to be automatically handled? What's the average lost performance on a multicore setup, like the one for X1, due to waiting on data/throwing out cycles? The MS team seems like they wanted to focus on fixing traditional weaknesses of memory and feeding execution units over just adding more units, as well as focusing on some kind of smart profiling of data access patterns to better prefetch those bits that are most commonly needed. Is this a fair take on the goals of the team?
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
The specs are out there and have been thoroughly explained-
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-cpu-overview/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-display-planes/
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durangos-move-engines/
http://www.vgleaks.com/use-your-mobile-or-tablet-with-durango-xbox-companion/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-next-generation-kinect-sensor/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-sound-of-tomorrow/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-spec-analysis-durango-vs-orbis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one
What more is there to know? Give me a fucking break.
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-cpu-overview/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-display-planes/
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durangos-move-engines/
http://www.vgleaks.com/use-your-mobile-or-tablet-with-durango-xbox-companion/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-next-generation-kinect-sensor/
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-sound-of-tomorrow/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-spec-analysis-durango-vs-orbis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one
What more is there to know? Give me a fucking break.
SwiftDeath
Member
He is clearly in marketing though and while they are distinctive fields he is acting as PR
He is publicly relating things about the X1 to the public
Regardless of whether he is in PR or marketing, I'm not sure why someone from either one of them should be telling me the hardware specs are meaningless
In the article he says that we aren't sony or xbox engineers but unless I'm very much mistaken, neither is he
Why should I listen to a word he says about the specs of the console?
How much information that he possesses does he?
A. Understand fully
B. Can officially confirm
C. Pertains to the discussion at hand
Honestly if marketing and PR are distinctive fields (which they are) why is he relating with the public at all?
I just find this whole thing confusing to tell the truth
lol Monumental is here. Now it's a party.
Fair enough. We will compare the final, shipping specs.
We cant say this because;
1. Just agreed that we'll compare final specs.
2. The specs we have now dont point to a repeat of the 360/PS3 scenario. (Xbox One having a significant deficit)
Again, I appreciate you reaching out to GAF and also hope that we get some direct scoops from you in the near future
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I have to say, this is the most refreshingly frank and honest comment ive heard from a MS exec in the past 3 months. I salute you sir.
vpance
Member
Albert sounds a lot like Reiko did. The guy that kept saying "we don't really know the real specs yet" and "things can change".
No offense to him but the longer everyone is kept in the dark from official specs the better for them in trying to sell the console. So of course the messaging will be, please, just wait! It's not over yet!
No offense to him but the longer everyone is kept in the dark from official specs the better for them in trying to sell the console. So of course the messaging will be, please, just wait! It's not over yet!
Pristine_Condition
Member
Nope, not implying that. I'm asking if people could conceive of a circumstance where the published specs might not tell the whole story on performance. I'm not talking about the cloud, either.
So, are you saying the specs of the XBox One have changed?
You have no specific knowledge of Sony's product and can't speak of it, unless you're saying that Microsoft engaged in tampering and got someone to break their NDA, which would be the dumbest thing to speak about on a public forum ever, and I don't think you are dumb.
So you MUST be saying the XBox One's specs have changed, right? Or we're back to the "Special Sauce" argument?
So what does this mean? Either you are saying:
A) The Xbox One got an 11th hour spec bump.
B) Microsoft engaged in tampering and knows information covered by NDA that it shouldn't know about Sony's specs being lowered somehow.
C) You are speculating about things that COULD POSSIBLY happen regarding the PS4, but have no specific knowledge about.
D) "Special Sauce" (see below)
(Unlikely given the holiday launch date...and it's kinda up to you to PROVE this, and considering your reluctance to release specs as specifically as your competitor, I'm not holding my breath)
B) Microsoft engaged in tampering and knows information covered by NDA that it shouldn't know about Sony's specs being lowered somehow.
(Highly unlikely you would be here on a public forum opening the door to that kind of legal mess. Also highly unlikely that the first person we'd hear this huge news from would be a Microsoft employee. It would be much better to leak this to a press member.)
C) You are speculating about things that COULD POSSIBLY happen regarding the PS4, but have no specific knowledge about.
(In which case, you are simply tossing the ball around to second and third-base of the FUD infield--Uncertainty and Doubt. Because unless you do have specific knowledge, that's all this is...Uncertainty and Doubt. If that's what you are hoping to accomplish--a simple FUD-spreading mission--shame on you for trying to do it here on NeoGAF.)
D) "Special Sauce" (see below)
Uh huh. And yet here you are...
Nope, not implying that. I'm asking if people could conceive of a circumstance where the published specs might not tell the whole story on performance. I'm not talking about the cloud, either.
Actually, it sounds like you were implying that. Because if you really were talking about "special sauce," there'd be no need for you to preface this with the whole nonsensical "we don’t want to engage in a specification debate until both boxes are final and shipping" thing.
After all, if you had such powerful "special sauce" that it would indeed compensate for the perceived power difference between your box and PS4, you wouldn't have to wait-and-see what's in the PS4 retail box to talk about it. And indeed, you wouldn't wait-and-see, because it'd be to Microsoft's advantage to get that information out ASAP to counter Sony's very compelling argument of offering the "most-powerful console" with a $100 less-expensive price tag .
And last gen, when Microsoft was very confident in their box power-wise, Major Nelson had no such issues against "engage[ing] in a specification debate until both boxes are final and shipping." He was publishing multi-page spec comparison arguments on his blog, and they were, from a PR perspective, compelling and effective. From a fan's perspective, it seems like this sudden reluctance to talk about specs, when last time around, Major Nelson was going point-by-point in detail seems weak.
So yeah, from my perspective, it sounds super FUD-tastic in here.
Welcome to GAF though, Albert. Hoping for better posts in the future.
Monumental
Banned
Microsoft employee: We can't really speak about specs because we have neither finalized our own, nor do we know the exact detail of Sony's hardware, but both hardware are very capable and in the end, it'll be all about games.
Gamers: DAMAGE CONTROLLLLL!!!
Microsoft employee: Can you think of any way in which one hardware that seems worse on paper end up actually performing better in real world tests in some ways? The answer to that question is why we're not releasing specs so far.
Gamers: HAHA! So your console is significantly weaker. Confirmed. Go home marketer.
Why does Albert even bother? Seriously? We know the XBO is weaker than the PS4 in many ways. But they shouldn't even bother trying to have a discussion about it. They really should let the games speak for themselves, like at E3.
Don't come to a forum, which has an incredibly skewed view of your corporation (due to numerous communication missteps), and try to rationalize with them. It's not going to get you anywhere. Just take the hardware you have, and try to make the best games you can, and let them do the talking.
The worldwide audience won't give a shit about bickering over specs on paper if you just show games and leave it at that.
And of course Microsoft is being "hypocritical" now. Sony was championing the power of the PS2 against the Dreamcast, but shut up against the GCN and the Xbox. Then they were championing the power of the PS3 for the first few years (E3 2005/2006), but then they quickly backed down when most games ended up performing better on the 360.
Every company does the best they can with what they have to work with. This is nothing new.
So seriously Albert, you're better off just shuting up for now.
Gamers: DAMAGE CONTROLLLLL!!!
Microsoft employee: Can you think of any way in which one hardware that seems worse on paper end up actually performing better in real world tests in some ways? The answer to that question is why we're not releasing specs so far.
Gamers: HAHA! So your console is significantly weaker. Confirmed. Go home marketer.
Why does Albert even bother? Seriously? We know the XBO is weaker than the PS4 in many ways. But they shouldn't even bother trying to have a discussion about it. They really should let the games speak for themselves, like at E3.
Don't come to a forum, which has an incredibly skewed view of your corporation (due to numerous communication missteps), and try to rationalize with them. It's not going to get you anywhere. Just take the hardware you have, and try to make the best games you can, and let them do the talking.
The worldwide audience won't give a shit about bickering over specs on paper if you just show games and leave it at that.
And of course Microsoft is being "hypocritical" now. Sony was championing the power of the PS2 against the Dreamcast, but shut up against the GCN and the Xbox. Then they were championing the power of the PS3 for the first few years (E3 2005/2006), but then they quickly backed down when most games ended up performing better on the 360.
Every company does the best they can with what they have to work with. This is nothing new.
So seriously Albert, you're better off just shuting up for now.
24h internet checks and the restriction of used games usage/sales are communication missteps?
Maybe it's not this forums view which is skewed but your own...
Monumental
Banned
I don't even know what you're arguing.
Literally EVERYONE on this board would agree that Microsoft has hugely stumbled with their PR and their communication of their policies.
It's that every exec was saying something different, none were confirming, they were still working out the "details", etc...
It's all of that that created this snowball effect of distrust and anger amongst the general gaming population.
Uno Venova
Banned
No, it's not the messaging, it's the actual shit policies in the first place that got the 'skewed view'. Most people knew there was no great benefits in place for taking away rights that they just failed to communicate with us on.
VanquishUK
Member
This thread is a trainwreck.
No argument there
I argue that a huge part of ill will towards MS didn't come from bad PR (although that certainly didn't help).
I argue that a huge part of ill will towards MS came from the policies they wanted to implement.
You do remember that a week before E3 MS put out detailed information how their drm scheme would work.
24h online checks and used game restrictions were not "communication missteps" - they were MS declared policies for the Xbox One.
Good thing then that MS is NOT trying to have a spec discussion but deflecting, right?
hydrophilic attack
Member
I'm not talking about the cloud, either.
Straight from the horse's mouth.
The infinite power of the cloud was their attempt to sell their DRM. Now that that has been scrapped, they won't be talking about it all that much anymore.
lastflowers
Banned
Uh, I highly doubt that.
hydrophilic attack
Member
CBOAT said this was the case.
And I haven't heard them talking about it since their 180.
lastflowers
Banned
They wouldn't be building up crazy amounts of azure vm instances if it is only DRM checks. In CBOAT I trust, but I don't think he's right there.
Remember, I'm biased though
hydrophilic attack
Member
They wouldn't be building up crazy amounts of azure vm instances if it is only DRM checks. In CBOAT I trust, but I don't think he's right there.
Remember, I'm biased though
Well, they do have other business aside from gaming where they need Azure.
Bias noted for future reference
I hope no one is actually making that argument that the servers are only there for DRM checks.
That the cloud has some benefit does not mean it isn't their Trojan horse for DRM.
SimCity said the social bullshit is the reason for why it's online, and then we found out that the social bullshit is a few bytes being exchanged every 10 minutes and the rest of the game was not one bit affected by being offline.
Calling the SimCity online portion is still their DRM bullshit.
And all Microsoft have shown at the moment is that they can offer developers dedicated servers or space. Which Forza uses to upload player profiles. Fucking wow. That justifies always-online.
Their policy change from always-online (which was rumored0 to 24h check-in basically admitted to the public that yes, it's just DRM. Because if a system isn't required to be always online, it means it can't depend on it.
Albert Penello
Member
Just to address a couple qualification questions, since there is confusion. My profiles are pretty public, so it would be hard for me to come and lie about who I am or what I do.
As stated, I run Product Planning. My group reports into Marc Whitten, on the engineering side. You can see that was updated in 2009. PRIOR to that, I was in Product Marketing. In my entire time at Xbox (I started a year before we launched V1) Ive worked really closely with the Hardware teams regardless of which group Ive reported into.
Neither of those groups are PR, for what it matters. Marketing is not the same thing as Public Relations.
I have done lots of interviews in the past (not too hard to find me) and at no point have I worked in PR. As Ive also stated Im doing this on my own time. I have only commented on topics around interviews I have done, or occasionally where someone has asked a clarifying question around something we have announced. For reasons that are obvious, I cant disclose a lot of things. I have tried to clarify around things weve announced when I can.
I didnt feel like that was doing PR but some here feel that way. I was never intending to get into the debate only to clarify the intent behind some of the statements made in the interview.
Anyway, I poked in to clarify a bit what I meant in the article, hopefully it clarified for some.
As stated, I run Product Planning. My group reports into Marc Whitten, on the engineering side. You can see that was updated in 2009. PRIOR to that, I was in Product Marketing. In my entire time at Xbox (I started a year before we launched V1) Ive worked really closely with the Hardware teams regardless of which group Ive reported into.
Neither of those groups are PR, for what it matters. Marketing is not the same thing as Public Relations.
I have done lots of interviews in the past (not too hard to find me) and at no point have I worked in PR. As Ive also stated Im doing this on my own time. I have only commented on topics around interviews I have done, or occasionally where someone has asked a clarifying question around something we have announced. For reasons that are obvious, I cant disclose a lot of things. I have tried to clarify around things weve announced when I can.
I didnt feel like that was doing PR but some here feel that way. I was never intending to get into the debate only to clarify the intent behind some of the statements made in the interview.
Anyway, I poked in to clarify a bit what I meant in the article, hopefully it clarified for some.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify this.
Albert Penello
Member
No problem!
dragonelite
Member
Well dam just half way through the what is new in DirectX11.2.
Those display planes should make the DF:face off interesting.
Counting how much % of the frames are running on lower resolution then what normal resolution should be ala rage..
Those display planes should make the DF:face off interesting.
Counting how much % of the frames are running on lower resolution then what normal resolution should be ala rage..
FunkyPajamas
Member
And so are you.
They wouldn't be building up crazy amounts of azure vm instances if it is only DRM checks. In CBOAT I trust, but I don't think he's right there.
Remember, I'm biased though
What CBOAT said doesn't really discount it having a practical function as well. He said they designed the system/policy for DRM purposes from day 1, obviously they needed something to attempt to justify it, and that's where the "cloud power" comes in.
As has been noted, there are some things it will be able to do. But for the most part having "cloud required" games/features won't be because it provides the power of x number of additional Xbox Ones, it will be a way of sidestepping having to say those games/features require a persistent online connection.
Although the entire totality of your post can be summarized as 'wild fan makes over-the-top generalizations in an attempt to obscure reality', I think there is still some entertainment value (and perhaps genuine debate) we can gain by breaking down this silliness.
1. Do you really believe that in just over 5 months to go to launch, the vast majority of the specs are not nailed down? Do you think that this is a valid excuse to simply not analyze what we already know to be true?
2. Do you believe if it WERE true that they were scrambling to modify the specs at this late hour that it'd be a good thing? That'd scream half-baked console design, not intelligently designed engineering philosophy that is going to yield great results.
3. It is damage control. This is undeniable. Refusing to get detailed about your own system specs, even when everyone knows it's far weaker than PS4, and then saying 'um they'll both be capable though' is almost by definition damage control.
Is it wrong for people to point that out?
It's patently absurd. Microsoft has lied about every single thing related to their console since things started being leaked about it early this year; literally every single thing. Now, because they've been caught flatfooted and everyone in-the-know has already come to the conclusion that XBO is inferior to PS4 in virtually every way technically, they're trying to hide behind 'well we have some secret sauce but we can't reveal it. But trust us, it doesn't seem as bad as it does!'
That is classic misdirection, and almost always false. But if you believe they deserve that benefit of a doubt, don't you think the weight is on you to demonstrate why this should be the exception?
Why should they bother? Because it's about keeping consumers informed. "Letting the games speak for themselves" alone is highly suspicious as it is for any platform that hasn't released yet: game engines are highly underdeveloped as devs/pubs rush for launch window, the power of both systems aren't even close to being tapped due to the predominance of cross gen ports and relatively fewer exclusives that have really begin to dig under the hood.
Example of why this is important ->
Up until February 21, almost every dev - including all of Sony's first party devs - thought the platform was going to have 4GB of GDDR5. They were all working on engines that understood that inherent limitation. Now they're suddenly working with DOUBLE that. Do you think 'letting the games speak for themselves' is adequate then? Of course not.
Same is true if Microsoft really did improve any specs we don't know about yet.
Therefore, it is essential you lay your cards on the table with potential consumers. It is almost your obligation to do so, so that any potential customer can weigh the cons/pros and decide with their fully educated minds.
Everything needs to be considered: The Kinect 2.0, Microsoft's investment in Cloud and TV tuning, their haptic feedback rumble triggers and XBL; and Sony's touch pad, light indicator, investment in Gaikai and PS+. And yes, the power. And the only way to compare the relative value of the power included in the system, which directly and dramatically impacts the quality of games, we need to know what's under the hood.
Do you not see why it's important as a consumer? Only a corporation would have a different view on the subject, because they have only their own best interests at heart.
Microsoft therefore has a vested strategic interest in being dishonest about the specs, because it would reveal a system that is significantly inferior to the PS4 and yet costs $500. At the same time, consumers must weight that PS4 is technically superior @ $100 less, but does not come with a camera-like device.
Uh oh guys, here comes to persecution complex. Guy registers and posts on a forum where he is clearly a fanboy for a particular company that he believes everyone is being big meanies to (in before "I own every system herpity"), and then goes around claiming how SKEWED everyone is on it.
Nobody is SKEWED about the corporation. The CORPORATION released a series of incredibly hostile strategies toward consumers, consumers consist of 100% of this forum population (and every forum population), and the immediate reaction was extremely negative and protective of one's territory.
If Microsoft had not done that, the forum would be engaged in an entirely different bit of theatrics right now. When Sony shit on gamers faces with PS3, this forum did not let that system live it down for years ("$600", "Get a second Job", Why are they focusing so much on Blu-ray to the detriment of their gaming market share, the disaster of Vita at market). When Nintendo shit the bed with its various strategies toward early 3DS, the forum was extremely negative until Nintendo turned it around with the price drop and ambassador program and a slew of games. Same will be true of Wii U if that times come.
Now it's Microsoft's turn to take the shit. And the only difference is is that what Microsoft did was a far more egregious violation of our respect than any company before. That's why it seems relatively louder: not because of any inherent slant or skew of whatever else fills your lakes of tears so you can get through the day to justify whatever warped perspective this train of thought requires.
Are you fucking kidding me? The PS2 dominated the power discussion for that entire generation, and was a pivotal selling point for that platform. Sony continued to talk up its power throughout the entire gen, and the only reason it may seem to you why they reduced the talk is because they had already won the power war with their messaging. By the time GCN and Xbox came out, it was unnecessary for Sony to waste AS much time talking it up as they were... the media already took the ball and ran with it. Y2Kev summed this up much better than I ever did:
I think this is enough to get this discussion started.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
The lynch mob is out for blood, it's truly embarrassing.
Ah, the classic post of a non-contributor: attacks a nebulous, undefined 'lynch mob', refuses to point out any aspect of where they are wrong (or any proof that such a mob indeed exists at all). Do you want to participate or do you want to snipe so you make yourself feel better?
NeoGAF was so mean to Kinect too, weren't they CITADEL
hydrophilic attack
Member
It's amusing that you make this post just after another post that calls out the persecution complex of many Xbox fans
dragonelite
Member
popcorn.jif
Haha Y2Kev was frustrated yesterday by the persecution complex on display in a Xbox thread, too.
Good post Amir0x. It seemingly needs to be repeated over and over again that people shit on the companies if they make shit decisions and just because Sony hasn't made a major shit decision lately this place isn't overly hostile to it.
(If any reader craves that hostility: check out the Vita threads.)
CouldBeWorse
Member
It's brutal in here for any Microsoft employee. The change in policy most certainly did not change the amount of blood in the water and the general level of bile directed towards everything Microsoft says and does. No matter what Microsoft does from here on out, it won't be enough. Even if they removed the mandatory Kinect, lowered the price, and (somehow) found a way to increase the performance of the Xbone, it wouldn't matter. Battle lines have been drawn and most rationality/civility has gone out the window.
NeoGAF is in a really weird place. For the first time I can remember where the majority of active posters are on the same team (speaking to consoles only, mind you) and they are FEISTY. It's not like Nintendo and Microsoft have anyone to blame but themselves. The near total failure of the Wii U and the horrendous policies/messaging/pricing/Kinecting/underpowering of the Xbox One should cause a lot of people with Director/VP/C in their titles to take a long, hard look into the mirror.
I can't believe that Albert is even bothering wading into this mess, but I certainly appreciate it. I wish we had more people from all three companies posting here.
NeoGAF is in a really weird place. For the first time I can remember where the majority of active posters are on the same team (speaking to consoles only, mind you) and they are FEISTY. It's not like Nintendo and Microsoft have anyone to blame but themselves. The near total failure of the Wii U and the horrendous policies/messaging/pricing/Kinecting/underpowering of the Xbox One should cause a lot of people with Director/VP/C in their titles to take a long, hard look into the mirror.
I can't believe that Albert is even bothering wading into this mess, but I certainly appreciate it. I wish we had more people from all three companies posting here.
I think your worthless post is more embarrassing than anything this supposed lynch mob has come up with.
Ah now we're already at far weaker. Yesterday I had a lot of fun asking people for proof (apart from stupid numbers / funny graphs that tell very little of the full story) for this claim (and I'm not arguing the PS4 will generally be more powerful).
Funnily enough, I'm still waiting for any kind of solid confirmation - the Gaffers I have seen the last few weeks were... quite forthcoming with digging up stuff that made the One or MS Execs look bad, strange that they should fail so far at this mundane task.