DXLelouch153
Banned
customers are the only reason you exist dumbass
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Jesse Schell: Listening to customers was Microsoft's big mistake
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
I wonder if they could've just gotten away with releasing a secondary sku, a digital-only xbox one, no optical drive, only hdd and internets.
Or maybe start something with first party games, throw a downloadable code in with every game, you can choose to lock the game to your account for no-disc play and play-from anywhere but it comes at the expense of being able to lend the game out, etc.
Or maybe start something with first party games, throw a downloadable code in with every game, you can choose to lock the game to your account for no-disc play and play-from anywhere but it comes at the expense of being able to lend the game out, etc.
MrCookiepants
Member
Microsoft's trade-in program seemed inconvenient for everyone but them and the publishers.
It's mostly the principal of it. People are used to these privileges. I don't particularly care about this bottle of Coke next to me. But if someone were to just take it away from me, I'd be pissed. That's mine. I paid for it, I have a right to it.
In any case, the rise in preorders after the 180 should be enough to discredit this article.
The funniest thing about it all is how upset everyone got. They were talking about having a choice and how much they wanted a choice, when really, they always did. You have the choice to buy a product or not buy a product. I don't go into Android threads and complain it doesn't have iOS on it. A product is what it is. If you don't want it, than don't buy it.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Physical purchasers were indeed getting screwed over. They were taking away the ability to resell your games privately, and forcing you to go through select partners that were using the Azure program.
don't be an ass, look the guy up.
DragonSworne
Banned
No, the disc is nothing more than a install disc. It's completely useless outside of initial use to install the game.
It's wasn't required to play the game and it wasn't able to play the game on another system without repaying for a full license.
I did before i posted that and i thought i had the wrong guy, that's why i asked, no idea why this guy of all people is commenting on something he has nothing to do with.
If there are no convincing arguments why your horrible system is supposed to be a good thing, it's always easier to point to something else that has flaws as well and expect people to like your system similar to the other one even though yours isn't really comparable.
I don't get it either how that is good PR.
Thanks, the video is interesting.
Version 3.0
Member
Another example of the "blame the customer" view that's so disgustingly widespread in this industry.
I'm sure we've all heard the "invent something that people didn't know they wanted" train of thought on how to achieve great success before. It's true, and it's amazing when it happens.
This is the first time I've heard the sour grapes side of that. "Fuck those guys, they didn't want what they were supposed to want".
Really?
I'm sure we've all heard the "invent something that people didn't know they wanted" train of thought on how to achieve great success before. It's true, and it's amazing when it happens.
This is the first time I've heard the sour grapes side of that. "Fuck those guys, they didn't want what they were supposed to want".
Really?
Barack Lesnar
Banned
This has NOTHING to do with what we were talking about. Please read the entire exchange. It's about competition, pricing, deals, etc. I'm aware of the fact that they would just be install discs like a retail PC game.
My theory is that they're more retarded than the mothers they came out of, but that'd require more study.
Black Mantis
Member
That's a lie. I picked up a few titles in their sales, of which they've had 2 so far this year. Most I paid for a single title, was £12 for Forza Horizon. Picked up 3 of the AC titles for £4 and £2 for R6: Vegas.
http://www.computerandvideogames.co...iscounts-on-forza-horizon-witcher-2-and-more/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...emand-to-go-on-sale-for-up-to-85-per-cent-off
SwiftDeath
Member
Because clearly it was going to be just like steam.........
Steam
- On open platform, thus competition (GoG, retail etc.)
- Offline Mode
- Years proving its own self worth as a digital distribution method while competing against other services (see above)
- Promises to keep servers running as long as company remains
- Games you own are just a steam crack away from playability if steam was to ever go under
- All benefits and cons of PCs (mods, customization, hassle of updates/upgrades)
- Pretty good indie support
- Steam summer/winter sales
So yeah X1 was totally going to be exactly like steam......
Steam
- On open platform, thus competition (GoG, retail etc.)
- Offline Mode
- Years proving its own self worth as a digital distribution method while competing against other services (see above)
- Promises to keep servers running as long as company remains
- Games you own are just a steam crack away from playability if steam was to ever go under
- All benefits and cons of PCs (mods, customization, hassle of updates/upgrades)
- Pretty good indie support
- Steam summer/winter sales
So yeah X1 was totally going to be exactly like steam......
diffusionx
Gold Member
Sour grapes are ALWAYS there. The quintessential example is the gazillion-post Slashdot thread on the iPod reveal. Shocking to hear about the Slashdot audience in 2001, but everyone hated it.
The question is whether or not the company that is "inventing something that people don't know they wanted" has the courage to see it through. I would say Apple does. Valve does too. Nintendo does, on occasion. Microsoft does not. They came up with this system of half-steps and confusing compromises that ended up pleasing no one.
Not digitally they don't nor will they. This isn't going to be like Steam vs Amazon vs GMG vs Origin vs GameFly.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
But iOS being forced on everyone would certainly piss you off, certainly if 'big industry names' would defend this evidently not-a-choice type practise.
Which is what people got angry (-ier) about.
The other is that the choice you correctly name, is being twisted into a choice at the product level, after supposedly buying it, warping the whole discussion. As if a DRM creates choice... I mean, I can't even...I'm literally throwing my hands in the air here.
neoism
Member
this argument doesn't work even if it is a """"gaming"""" computer no one gets a computer for it they get it for the internet....... steam and games are just icing on top..
DragonSworne
Banned
Xbox one DRM would have had a huge effect on kepping physical prices high, regardless of what MS priced their games online.
The disc is basically useless after first use. Getting rid of the second hand free market will keep prices high and at the same time take away the amount of cash customers can spend on new games.
Having a closed second hand market will allow select retailers to keep prices artificially high since there is less competition.
GrizzledGrump
Banned
Jesse Schell knows history and that most of the time, consumers don't know what the hell they want until you give it to them.
And some people will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. Thankfully, these people are an insignificant minority (albeit loud).
DragonSworne
Banned
digoutyoursoul
Member
Can't have been that insignificant if Microsoft changed their policies
This. The hardcore tend to hold onto their games. Its the casual/average players that churn through them and are Gamestop's favorite customers due to trade-ins and resale.
I still think MS could have pulled it off just fine. What they needed was a good solid PR plan with all the answers to actually identify all the details. Instead they had a lot of "we'll check into it" "we'll get back to you" "it's still being planned" and then continuous contradictory and retracted statements from PR figures.
So people latched onto the possible negatives, and never even allowed themselves to consider the possible positives, because there was no clarity. And when confused, people get angry.
It sets a bad precedent for other companies to follow see Sony's online multiplayer paywall with PSN+.
LukasTaves
Member
Yeah, let's all forget the fact that none of that has anything to do with the store policies!
Again, complete bullshit points (sorry OPs, but yeah they are bull):
Most of those points They are either entirely incorrect, or has nothing to do with the platform policies.
Are you speaking in the third person?
Dlacy13g
Member
Sure there is some truth to the notion that if all you do is listen to customers who want the same thing then you will have a very difficult time evolving...but that said, I think the MS reversal was important in that they way they were trying to evolve was too fast / too cut and dry for the consumer base of today. A soft roll out of their ideas was needed and wasn't what was presented. Now with the reversal they have a good chance of building a consumer base that they can now ease into their newer concepts around digital media and DRM rights that many of us just weren't comfortable with if that was the only option.
The quote has been proven to be true over and over again, year after year.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I referenced the myriad of major retail "brick & mortar stores" right there in the first sentence, and in posts on the last page, not digital.
How would they be keeping prices high? You're making these statements but I don't see any reasoning behind them. How would getting rid of the second hand free market keep prices of new games high? What's the logic behind that? (not being antagonizing, genuine question)
So Microsoft Stuidios, EA and Ubisoft are not competing with each other for sales?
Good to know.
iOS has sales. So does Google Play. Both are closed systems.
Best Buy and Target aren't exactly price competing very often and game prices are typically in lock-step. Some retailers do have sales of course, but your every day prices are usually the same.
EatinOlives
Member
Microsoft doesn't give a shit about consumer opinion unless it's large enough to affect their bottom line.
Guess what? They gave shit about consumer opinion when they changed their policies because it was large enough to affect their bottom line.
Consumers don't know what they want until they give it them, but it's immediately obvious that they want it when it's given to them. If you give it to them and they don't want it, they're not magically going want it if you fucking ram it down their throats and scream YOU WANT THIS.
No, they're not, because neither the 360 nor the XBox One has a UPlay or Origin Store right next to the XBox Live Marketplace with its own policies and sales.
I don't care what sort of outcry your talking about, because not buying something is the pretty much the biggest consumer outcry there is. So the statement fits.
MS tried to force the future on a customer that wasn't ready for it. If they truly believed in a digital only future. Put out the box that does both, and wait for digital sales to take over. They were just impatient. The transition was never going to happen over night like they wanted it to.
Wow. Just Wow.
So because EA has to sell games via the Xbox Live Marketplace there is no competition with other publishers?
I think a follow up question to this is when will it happen? Was it the policies that sucked and if implemented well will it then be accepted by everyone?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
He can't be serious! So MS should have released a console that nobody asked for?
I think it's more they don't know what they want until you give it to them.
Microsoft could have carved out an impressive little notch with their Xbone announcement. It's so funny how it could have been so different if they had just announced it properly, but christ all might. They fucked up talking about it so so hard.
If it fails it will not be because of the system, but because how the suits revealed it. In particularly Mattrick. It's selling 101. Customers only care about benefits. Always say how it will benefit them. Simply amazing.
Microsoft could have carved out an impressive little notch with their Xbone announcement. It's so funny how it could have been so different if they had just announced it properly, but christ all might. They fucked up talking about it so so hard.
If it fails it will not be because of the system, but because how the suits revealed it. In particularly Mattrick. It's selling 101. Customers only care about benefits. Always say how it will benefit them. Simply amazing.
Lostconfused
Member
Provide an example of competition between publishers actually driving down the cost of retail console games first. Or are you arguing about something else? At least to me it seems like the retail prices of video games are fairly constant no matter who the publisher is.
People keep saying "it was only a vocal minority that complained" like the Adam Orth story didn't leak on MSNBC.com, or like pre-order numbers weren't terrible for Microsoft.
Also, "the messaging was terrible". You'd rather then straight-up lie to us? Because there's no other way to properly message what Microsoft was trying to do...
Also, "the messaging was terrible". You'd rather then straight-up lie to us? Because there's no other way to properly message what Microsoft was trying to do...
GrizzledGrump
Banned
Their policy was stupid and should have been changed. I was talking in general terms.
I laughed my ass off at the iPad and Apple showed that smartphones were something that geeks and power users only wanted.
hahaha! 10x thumbs up for reminding me that lenslock bullshit!!
also I find it very truth-telling about the entire subject, that the person who was writing open letters to the community back then complaining about loss of his profits, is what became the world's fuckin' richest man
Well, who really knows. Until most people flat out choose the digital copy because of convenience / price and discs become less and less important. Most people will no longer feel the same ownership of the content they had with a disc at this point.
The article is garbage. Get this innovator's dilemma crap out of here.
Here's the thing: If you A) make a product that does what is supposed to do well, and B) make the product appealing, and C) market the product well, it will sell. Nintendo, Apple and Steam all do this.
Nintendo's Wii game system took hardware that was outdated compared to competing consoles and made it appealing through brilliant marketing. "Look how easy it is to use." Just swing your arm like you would with a golf club, and BAM! You're playing golf."
Steam DID NOT do A (and B, somewhat) well in the beginning. Any PC user who's been around since the early days of Steam can tell you that it did NOT work well, and didn't give consumers much reason to subscribe to downloading software with DRM applied to it. It took a while to streamline the interface, make downloading and playing games easy, and giving the consumers perks like forums, achievements, SALES SALES LOL, etc.
And let's end the comparison of Steam and Microsoft One right now. YES, they both are trying to get you towards digital downloads. YES, they both have DRM. Yes, I can transfer purchases from one XBone to another like Steam on a PC. Here's the CRUCIAL differences:
- Steam is FREE. 100% without cost. If I want to play a multiplayer shooter, or a co op adventure, it will cost me nothing. Xbox Live will cost at least $600 a year.
- Steam isn't held ransom by retail outlets. PC titles are given such paltry space on retail shelves, that retailers aren't going to be phased by a Steam sale. Meanwhile, if I lower Call of Duty, Madden and Final Fantasy by 25% on Xbox Live 60 days after they hit store shelves, I'm directly competing with Best Buy, Walmart, and Gamestop. PROBLEM.
- OPTIONS. On the PC, Steam competes with Gamefly, Greenman Gaming, GOG, and Gamersgate. They compete with Humble Bundle. They compete with the actual publishers of games like Origin. Xbox Live competes with nothing else. It is a closed system. Their console ecosystem is different from Playstation's PSN, and a different animal entirely from Nintendo's offerings, so that isn't going to help when it comes to competing for the consumer's eye.
Here's the thing: If you A) make a product that does what is supposed to do well, and B) make the product appealing, and C) market the product well, it will sell. Nintendo, Apple and Steam all do this.
Nintendo's Wii game system took hardware that was outdated compared to competing consoles and made it appealing through brilliant marketing. "Look how easy it is to use." Just swing your arm like you would with a golf club, and BAM! You're playing golf."
Steam DID NOT do A (and B, somewhat) well in the beginning. Any PC user who's been around since the early days of Steam can tell you that it did NOT work well, and didn't give consumers much reason to subscribe to downloading software with DRM applied to it. It took a while to streamline the interface, make downloading and playing games easy, and giving the consumers perks like forums, achievements, SALES SALES LOL, etc.
And let's end the comparison of Steam and Microsoft One right now. YES, they both are trying to get you towards digital downloads. YES, they both have DRM. Yes, I can transfer purchases from one XBone to another like Steam on a PC. Here's the CRUCIAL differences:
- Steam is FREE. 100% without cost. If I want to play a multiplayer shooter, or a co op adventure, it will cost me nothing. Xbox Live will cost at least $600 a year.
- Steam isn't held ransom by retail outlets. PC titles are given such paltry space on retail shelves, that retailers aren't going to be phased by a Steam sale. Meanwhile, if I lower Call of Duty, Madden and Final Fantasy by 25% on Xbox Live 60 days after they hit store shelves, I'm directly competing with Best Buy, Walmart, and Gamestop. PROBLEM.
- OPTIONS. On the PC, Steam competes with Gamefly, Greenman Gaming, GOG, and Gamersgate. They compete with Humble Bundle. They compete with the actual publishers of games like Origin. Xbox Live competes with nothing else. It is a closed system. Their console ecosystem is different from Playstation's PSN, and a different animal entirely from Nintendo's offerings, so that isn't going to help when it comes to competing for the consumer's eye.
Uno Venova
Banned
A mistake they never really made though, they were pretty determined to go head first into this regardless of how many people complained directly to them, only getting outpaced in the early race changed their path.