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[Tedesco!]

he wasnt just placing bets on the outcome. He was throwing the game, making bogus moves, etc, while being in charge. how is that not worse?

He wasn't throwing games. He bet on the Reds. He didn't bet against them.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

meanwhile the NFL suspended 16 players for PEDs this year and you don't hear a word about it.

That's because even though Goodell is an asshole, he knows its better for this kind of stuff not to be on the front pages. He fucked up already with the Bounty Gate stuff. Selig is doing the same thing. He is going on a witch hunt because he doesn't want his legacy to be "The dumbfuck who tried to contract the Twins and ended an All Star game in a tie" and is trying to change the narrative on his legacy to turn him into the guy who was tough on PEDs.

He wasn't throwing games. He bet on the Reds. He didn't bet against them.

And on days he didn't bet on them, he could have easily been throwing games so that he could set himself and his team up the way he wanted for the days he DID bet.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The balls were juiced moreso than the players were.

Steroids didn't start with Canseco and McGwire. Olympic athletes and some NFL players had been using them since the 50s and 60s. If you honestly think that it didn't get to the MLB until the late 80s/early 90s you are being naive. The 80s were considered a dead era in terms of HRs and power numbers and guys were probably juicing then too.

In Canseco's book, he said the common clubhouse sentiment at the time was that steroids make you bulky, slow and injury prone so nobody was taking them when he came into the league.

 

[Lathentar]

you have proof of all this correct? where is the proof that shows that a steroids helps a player hit a ball, where is the prood that says steroids allows a bat to be at the proper 15 degree angle that allows a ball to get enough loft to get out of the stadium? if steroids does anything, i would say it allows someone to heal up quicker to get back out on the field...but a cortizone shot does that too. and pitchers get those twice a month.

Is it just coincidence that the 61 HR record was broken 6 times in 4 years though right? Even though the 3 people that broke those records were all on steroids.

 

[3N16MA]

Giambi
Pettitte
Clemens
Cervelli
Montero
A-Rod
Rivera

At what point should the teams also hold some responsibility and not be able to constantly claim ignorance?

Clemens, A-Rod, and Giambi either admitted to or have been accused of using PEDs before joining the Yankees. Montero could have been linked during his time with the Mariners.

 

[entremet]

That's because even though Goodell is an asshole, he knows its better for this kind of stuff not to be on the front pages. He fucked up already with the Bounty Gate stuff. Selig is doing the same thing. He is going on a witch hunt because he doesn't want his legacy to be "The dumbfuck who tried to contract the Twins and ended an All Star game in a tie" and is trying to change the narrative on his legacy to turn him into the guy who was tough on PEDs.




And on days he didn't bet on them, he could have easily been throwing games so that he could set himself and his team up the way he wanted for the days he DID bet.

Baseball also has their holier than thou old school attitude.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

In Canseco's book, he said the common clubhouse sentiment at the time was that steroids make you bulky, slow and injury prone so nobody was taking them when he came into the league.

for steroids that's probably true. But PEDs are not just steroids. Greenies and amphetimines are also PEDs. Guys like Mantle, Mays, Hank Aaron and Maris popped them like tic tacs but you don't see people busting out asterisks or wanting their busts removed from the HoF.

 

[Friggz]

The "guarantee" is the weasel word here. The whole PEDs don't work argument is pretty meritless. They aren't taking steroids for no reason.

I'm sure Bret Boone really was just good enough to get 37 HR and 141 RBI in the twilight of his career after averaging 15 the rest of his career.

boone averaged 23 homers per 162 and had a career 15+% high hr/fb ration.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Is it just coincidence that the 61 HR record was broken 6 times in 4 years though right? Even though the 3 people that broke those records were all on steroids.

All of the players who admit to taking steroids admit freely that it makes you better, stronger and faster. Given that, plus the numbers explosion makes it pretty much a sealed deal. You might as well argue the moon is made of cheese.

boone averaged 23 homers per 162 and had a career 15+% high hr/fb ration.

Except his average went higher because in 2001-2005 he ripped 30+. It was somewhere around 15 prior those seasons. Dude's career high was 24 before 2001 when he hit 37 and won the RBI crown.

for steroids that's probably true. But PEDs are not just steroids. Greenies and amphetimines are also PEDs. Guys like Mantle, Mays, Hank Aaron and Maris popped them like tic tacs but you don't see people busting out asterisks or wanting their busts removed from the HoF.

Are you talking about greenies?

 

[Tedesco!]

And on days he didn't bet on them, he could have easily been throwing games so that he could set himself and his team up the way he wanted for the days he DID bet.

Could does not mean he did. Based on the facts we have Pete bet on the Reds, while A-Rod, Mac, Bonds, and countless others took peds.

So betting on some games and affecting some outcomes to games is still worse than a player affecting the outcome of ballgames on a daily basis for years?

 

[JHall]

But which do you think is honestly worse for the sport? PEDs or gambling by players/coaches?

Honestly, both are equally as bad. Both ruin the sport. Pete Rose and the 1919 Black Sox deserved their punishments. Steroid users need to be punished as harshly as they were.

 

[Friggz]

Clemens, A-Rod, and Giambi either admitted to or have been accused of using PEDs before joining the Yankees. Montero could have been linked during his time with the Mariners.

i want to say pettitte was with houston also, but i cant remember.

 

[abrack08]

Here's Cruz's statement/excuse:

“I have decided to accept this suspension and not exercise my rights under the Basic Agreement to appeal. From November, 2011 to January, 2012, I was seriously ill with a gastrointestinal infection, helicobacter pylori, which went undiagnosed for over a month. By the time I was properly diagnosed and treated, I had lost 40 pounds. Just weeks before I was to report to spring training in 2012, I was unsure whether I would be physically able to play. Faced with this situation, I made an error in judgment that I deeply regret, and I accept full responsibility for that error. I should have handled the situation differently, and my illness was no excuse.

Wonder if there are any pics of him from January 2012 to prove he actually was sick/lost a bunch of weight. Even as a Ranger fan, sounds like BS.

 

[eznark]

Clearly Braun was an affirmative action banning.

 

[NaturalHigh]

Could does not mean he did. Based on the facts we have Pete bet on the Reds, while A-Rod, Mac, Bonds, and countless others took peds.

So betting on some games and affecting some outcomes to games is still worse than a player affecting the outcome of ballgames on a daily basis for years?

Well said. I absolutely agree.

These dudes cheated and the results of games and entire seasons have been altered by their breaking of the rules.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Could does not mean he did. Based on the facts we have Pete bet on the Reds, while A-Rod, Mac, Bonds, and countless others took peds.

So betting on some games and affecting some outcomes to games is still worse than a player affecting the outcome of ballgames on a daily basis for years?

Even the slightest hint of a guy maybe throwing games is bad enough, which is why there are signs in every baseball clubhouse clearly stating any type of gambling on the game is met with a lifetime ban. A player throwing one single game is worse than a player being on steroids for his whole career. There is no comparison. Players on steroids are affecting the outcomes of games, but they do not cause people to question if the outcomes of games are legitimate rather than fixed or rigged. Do you really not see that difference?

 

[imBask]

Here's Cruz's statement/excuse:

 

[demosthenes]

Here's Cruz's statement/excuse:



Wonder if there are any pics of him from January 2012 to prove he actually was sick/lost a bunch of weight. Even as a Ranger fan, sounds like BS.

Just glad he didn't call it a mistake. I'm sick of seeing those words.

 

[sangreal]

Even the slightest hint of a guy maybe throwing games is bad enough, which is why there are signs in every baseball clubhouse clearly stating any type of gambling on the game is met with a lifetime ban. A player throwing one single game is worse than a player being on steroids for his whole career. There is no comparison. Players on steroids are affecting the outcomes of games, but they do not cause people to question if the outcomes of games are legitimate rather than fixed or rigged. Do you really not see that difference?

That reminds me. Selig tried to suspend A-Rod 2 years ago too just for playing some backroom poker games. Not a witch hunt though, nope

 

[captmcblack]

i want to say pettitte was with houston also, but i cant remember.

Pettitte was with Houston.

Biogenesis didn't even exist when Montero was still on the Yankees.

Fernando Martinez was a Mets prospect, and then an Astros prospect, literally until about a month ago when the Yankees picked him up off the scrap heap.

 

[Tedesco!]

The ban on Pete is ridiculous. MLB uses Pete when it suits them and then ignored him for the rest of the time. He's banned, except he can take part in the 1999 All-Star festivities, but he can't take part in celebrations of the closing of Riverfront Stadium. It's bullshit. In light of the peds his banning for gambling is almost quaint in nature. There was no conspiracy on his part, say unlike the 1919 Sox scandal. He doesn't need to ever step foot on a field, but he should be given eligibility and have his shot at the HOF.

 

[BruiserBear]

Here's Cruz's statement/excuse:



Wonder if there are any pics of him from January 2012 to prove he actually was sick/lost a bunch of weight. Even as a Ranger fan, sounds like BS.

haha

These guys are so fucking full of shit. It's amazing how all of them have a story to tell when they get caught. I've never seen one of these guys say "Yeah, I wanted to hit a lot of homeruns and get paid the big bucks".

 

[Tedesco!]

Even the slightest hint of a guy maybe throwing games is bad enough, which is why there are signs in every baseball clubhouse clearly stating any type of gambling on the game is met with a lifetime ban. A player throwing one single game is worse than a player being on steroids for his whole career. There is no comparison. Players on steroids are affecting the outcomes of games, but they do not cause people to question if the outcomes of games are legitimate rather than fixed or rigged. Do you really not see that difference?

You keep saying this. Where is the proof Pete threw any game? Also, players on PEDs aren't causing people to question the outcomes of games? It's not a matter of fixed or rigged, the games are illegitimate. Period. I would see Pete in the HOF before any of the steroid users....

 

[Plinko]

In Canseco's book, he said the common clubhouse sentiment at the time was that steroids make you bulky, slow and injury prone so nobody was taking them when he came into the league.

I find the entire Canseco situation hilarious. He was absolutely destroyed by baseball analysts for years because of that book and the stuff he claimed and much of it came true.

 

[Windu]

while steroids do have some effect on offensive performance I think some of it is also do to smaller parks, better equipment, better training, better tools to analysis player performance. tighter balls and most importantly imo, different approach at the plate. Even with the crackdown, Power around the league is still really high historically. ISO (isolated slugging percentage) for 2013 is 20th all time, 2012 was 17th, 2010 19th. 1st all time is 2000. Highest non 90s/00s is 1987 at 16th.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...0,ss&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=11,d

Strikeouts have been rising as well, since 2008 each year has produced a new strikeout record for mlb.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...0,ss&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

Strikeouts are no longer seen as the worst possible outcome. Players are willing to trade strikeouts for power. They are willing to sit on pitches and swing with full power with the risk of missing their pitch instead of having a higher contact rate but more likely of producing weak contact. Swing % etc.. numbers only go back to about 2002 but I think that is the case. Anyway, I think it is the right approach, as long as players don't chase balls and take their walks when given, the power output along with the walks is a more valuable outcome than having a higher contact rate but with weaker results. Just look at the 2013 atlanta braves.

So PEDs do play some role, I think it is one of many reasons power is up since the 1990s.

That's because even though Goodell is an asshole, he knows its better for this kind of stuff not to be on the front pages. He fucked up already with the Bounty Gate stuff. Selig is doing the same thing. He is going on a witch hunt because he doesn't want his legacy to be "The dumbfuck who tried to contract the Twins and ended an All Star game in a tie" and is trying to change the narrative on his legacy to turn him into the guy who was tough on PEDs.

main reason I wish this would blow up in Selig's face is because of this. he is doing all this to save his legacy.

 

[Friggz]

Is it just coincidence that the 61 HR record was broken 6 times in 4 years though right? Even though the 3 people that broke those records were all on steroids.

big mac, sosa, and bonds were all power hitters. mcgwire still has the rookie record with 49. sosa was probably using a corked bat, and bonds was a generational talent.

 

[sangreal]

haha

These guys are so fucking full of shit. It's amazing how all of them have a story to tell when they get caught. I've never seen one of these guys say "Yeah, I wanted to hit a lot of homeruns and get paid the big bucks".

That's pretty much exactly what arod said

It was very loose. I was young, I was stupid, I was naïve. And I wanted to prove to everyone that I was worth being one of the greatest players of all time

 

[BruiserBear]

You keep saying this. Where is the proof Pete threw any game? Also, players on PEDs aren't causing people to question the outcomes of games? It's not a matter of fixed or rigged, the games are illegitimate. Period. I would see Pete in the HOF before any of the steroid users....

I couldn't agree more. I don't believe Pete ever bet against his own team. That dude was addicted to winning. I can't ever imagine him losing baseball games to win bets. Not to mention he could never make a player play bad. A manager's decisions have a minimal impact on most games.

That's pretty much exactly what arod said

Sort of, but he also had his own spin story. "It was only for a few years!". Then he just gave it up completely.......because you know, most cheaters just stop cheating one day when they realize it's bad.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

You keep saying this. Where is the proof Pete threw any game? Also, players on PEDs aren't causing people to question the outcomes of games? It's not a matter of fixed or rigged, the games are illegitimate. Period. I would see Pete in the HOF before any of the steroid users....

He doesn't have to have thrown any game. The thing with gambling is that it instantly calls all of that into question, which is why there is a zero tolerance policy. Gambling and match fixing can KILL a sport. If today baseball announced that 12 players were being suspended for betting on games, it would be a thousand times worse than what we are seeing right now.

I couldn't agree more. I don't believe Pete ever bet against his own team. That dude was addicted to winning. I can't ever imagine him losing baseball games to win bets. Not to mention he could never make a player play bad. A manager's decisions have a minimal impact on most games.

So he was so addicted to winning that he wouldn't let winning a bet affect his decision making? Does that make any sense?

Deciding which closer to use, which pinch hitter to use, whether to scratch a pitcher and start him the next day...all of these things have a huge impact on winning and losing games. Look at the example I posted earlier and tell me something like that isn't essentially the same as rigging or fixing games.

 

[BruiserBear]

So he was so addicted to winning that he wouldn't let winning a bet affect his decision making? Does that make any sense?

Yes. I believe he loved baseball more than anything else. He was so competitive that gambling became another outlet for his competitiveness, but I don't believe the guy would ever choose to lose a baseball game.

No one has ever come forward to suggest such a thing too. No player, no fellow manager, no bench coaches, even the commissioner.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I find the entire Canseco situation hilarious. He was absolutely destroyed by baseball analysts for years because of that book and the stuff he claimed and much of it came true.

I'm always surprised how many armchair pundits on the steroid culture in baseball haven't read it and just dismiss it for Canseco being an asshole, despite like almost everything in the book coming true.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Yes. I believe he loved baseball more than anything else. He was so competitive that gambling became another outlet for his competitiveness, but I don't believe the guy would ever choose to lose a baseball game.

It was really dumb he chose to gamble on baseball games, but I don't think Pete would ever throw a game. No one has ever come forward to suggest such a thing too. No player, no fellow manager, no bench coaches, even the commissioner.

Things like which pitcher to use, which pinch hitter to use, are not intentionally throwing games but do affect outcomes and do call into question the legitimacy of the sport. IF a manager is making these kinds of decisions based on which games he is and isn't betting on, even if he only bets on his own team, it has the same effect on the game.

 

[NaturalHigh]

211 games for A-Rod.

lol

 

[Zombie James]

211 games for A-Rod.

lol

Too low.

 

[sangreal]

I find the entire Canseco situation hilarious. He was absolutely destroyed by baseball analysts for years because of that book and the stuff he claimed and much of it came true.

ESPN was actually going on about this earlier and how much Canseco has been vindicated

 

[Ninja Scooter]

211 games for A-Rod.

lol

A-Rod and his lawyers and the MLBPA are going to run circles around Selig for this. At the end of the day he will give in and give A-Rod 50 games and all this charade will be for nothing, and Selig will look like the slimy, spineless weasel he always was.

 

[Fatalah]

Gatorade should stop airing commercials during the steroids news cycle. Roger Maris had no stinkin' Gatorade!

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Gatorade should stop airing commercials during the steroids news cycle. Roger Maris had no stinkin' Gatorade!

Maris did have plenty of amphetamines though.

 

[Fatalah]

Maris did have plenty of amphetamines though.

I don't care what he did with frogs -- electrolytes is too sciencey!

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I never said gambling was bad; its horrible for the integrety of the sport. I just feel that PED usage is worse.

There needs to be stiffer penalties for PED usage. First time caught suspended for a season and the second time caught banned for life.

I can get behind the increased punishment. Baseball needs to put that in. Sorry. It's not working. Especially if they have guaranteed contracts. Life is too good.

 

[clemenx]

Union chief Weiner: "We believe the commissioner has not acted appropriately under the Basic Agreement.”

And here we go.

 

[sangreal]

I can get behind the increased punishment. Baseball needs to put that in. Sorry. It's not working. Especially if they have guaranteed contracts. Life is too good.

Sure. Change the agreement then. It can't be up to the comissioner to hand out whatever penalty he wants based on how much he likes a player. We already saw how that works out with the NFL and bounty-gate. I'm glad that the union is stepping up, there was a lot of speculation that they wouldn't. Give A-Rod his 50 days and move on

 

[BruiserBear]

.

And here we go.

They acted so unfairly that all the other players accepted the overwhelming evidence without even putting up a fight.

 

[clemenx]

.

They acted so unfairly that all the other players accepted the overwhelming evidence without even putting up a fight.

He's talking about A-Rod. The 211 games ban is just an arbitrary number of games with no basis on the agreement.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

.

They acted so unfairly that all the other players accepted the overwhelming evidence without even putting up a fight.

The other players took the suspensions as they were outlined in the CBA. 50 games. A-Rod would have taken 50 games. Where in the CBA does it say anything about a 211 game suspension? That is what is inappropriate.

 

[Raw64life]

lol @ F-Mart. So he's actually even worse than he was in the majors?

 

[BruiserBear]

He's talking about A-Rod. The 211 games ban is just an arbitrary number of games with no basis on the agreement.

The other players took the suspensions as they were outlined in the CBA. 50 games. A-Rod would have taken 50 games. Where in the CBA does it say anything about a 211 game suspension? That is what is inappropriate.

As I've mentioned earlier, MLB felt he went above and beyond just getting caught. He admitted to using them previously, he attempted to become a poster child for anti PED athletes. Once the shit hit the fan he was on that Biogenesis list, he began reaching out to people to tell them to keep their mouths shut, etc.

So he didn't just get caught, like the other guys. He tried to put up a front for years, he obstructed their investigation, and now he's still saying stupid shit about how it's all not fair. He deserved special treatment because his case was different than the others.

Also, Braun got more than 50 games. Why? Because his case was special. He got caught last year, and got off on a technicality, so he was shown the evidence, and accepted a 60+ game suspension. He was smarter than A-Rod when he knew the gig was up.

If A-Rod had just copped to this Biogenesis story he would most definitely not have gotten 200+ games.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

As I've mentioned earlier, MLB felt he went above and beyond just getting caught. He admitted to using them previously, he attempted to become a poster child for anti PED athletes. Once the shit hit the fan he was on that Biogenesis list, he began reaching out to people to tell them to keep their mouths shut, etc.

So he didn't just get caught, like the other guys. He tried to put up a front for years, he obstructed their investigation, and now he's still saying stupid shit about how it's all not fair. He deserved special treatment because his case was different than the others.

Also, Braun got more than 50 games. Why? Because his case was special. He got caught last year, and got off on a technicality, so he was shown the evidence, and accepted a 60+ game suspension.

And all of that stuff was made up by Selig as he went along. That is the problem the PA has with all of this. There is a CBA for a reason, you can't just change the rules around because you want to make an example out of someone or because A-Rod is unlikable and overpaid. A-Rod is going to win this shit easily.

And there is nothing about "copping" to this. MLB never offered any deal that would have resulted in a 50 game suspension, otherwise A-Rod would have taken it. They wanted him to agree to 211 games, threatened him with a lifetime ban if he didn't take their deal, and he rightly called their bluff.

 

[@____@]

A-Rod and his lawyers and the MLBPA are going to run circles around Selig for this. At the end of the day he will give in and give A-Rod 50 games and all this charade will be for nothing, and Selig will look like the slimy, spineless weasel he always was.

We'll see. IF -- and that's a big if -- MLB has the evidence it claims to have, I wouldn't be so sure that the suspension will be reduced to 50.

 

[DaveTheSnake]

The Phillies, who are already in a free fall, lose their best remaining reliever, yay.