The term you're looking for is "design by committee."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee
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AdvertisingAge: Xbox One's Data Treasure Trove Could Reshape Marketing
- Thread starter Freki
- Start date
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee
Call me old fashioned, but I just want to buy a gaming system. I don't want some camera watching me in my living room through my console so that it can tailor ads for me in order to try and get me to buy their shit.
I know, I can just unplug it. Which is why they should make it optional and lower the price for just the Xbox One by itself. But no, they are leaving it packed in and the price hiked to $500 because they want as many of these fucking things plugged in as possible... as originally planned.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
People have already accepted cameras on street corners, cameras in the sky and cameras in buildings, don't you think that people will accept cameras in their homes? Can't you see what's happening to society and why we need to put a stop to it?
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Many people pay far more than $500 a year to get cable TV, it has ads.
Some people will happily give up their rights for ummm...
...this?
I think I would rather keep my rights and just have a seizure like a normal person instead of acting like I'm having one.
Can someone explain to me why this is bad if it is opt-in? At that point, you control the decision if you are exposed to this form of advertising, I'm talking nuAds if it really is going to be a thing on Xbox One(?) A common retort will people will not read what their signing up for and just hit A. But whose fault is that really, the blame has to fall on peoples impatience to know exactly what they're choosing to do. It gets even more interesting if MS offers incentives for participating in this type of advertising like MS points or early access to games or other stuff like that, where people will actively seek out to sign up for it. I want to know why this is bad, because the way I see it is simply another form of advertising, one where we will most likely be given the explicit choice of if we want to participate in it or not. I personally do not have problems with ads if they are non-intrusive i.e. unlike Hulu plus, or Cable ads which force you to watch them if you don't DVR.
CadetMahoney
Member
Especially when you have to pay for online multiplayer and are forced to go view advert screens going through menus like on xbox live dashboard. bone really isn't winning any fans making it even worse than it is already on the 360 inferior online service.
Honey Bunny
Member
Some people will happily give up their rights for ummm...
...this?
The kid in red. Future gaffer.
Sword Of Doom
Member
Yup. I absolutely don't feel comfortable with any of this shit
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
Well this is Gaf, the most influential games forum on the internet, so I would think mods are keeping a keen eye on some posters for that very reason.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Most of NEOGAF would probably be hit with porn and fitness ads after Kinect watches them masterbate to Master Chief.
NullPointer
Member
It didn't used to. One of premium cable's original selling points was that it was commercial free.
They introduced ads bit by bit over the years until now Cable has become the prime example of paying for a service that still has a bunch of ads.
Its a prime example of how advertising starts small and grows exponentially.
The first developer or publisher to try this will get so much heat for it. I can only see it happening to games with massive userbases, like WoW or COD, but I'm not sure the ad revenue would be worth the bad rep.
Night Angel
Member
This doesn't bother me as long as it's an opt in program that you have to go out of your way to accept (or is at least very transparent and visible in the ToS).
What does bother me is the fact that I'll have ads again on the damn dashboard. Why should I have to deal with that shit if I'm playing for Gold?
What does bother me is the fact that I'll have ads again on the damn dashboard. Why should I have to deal with that shit if I'm playing for Gold?
Sword Of Doom
Member
As far as I know online privacy laws were written in 1986 which is just ridiculous. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think these laws have been updated.
https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/modernizing-electronic-communications-privacy-act-ecpa
https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/modernizing-electronic-communications-privacy-act-ecpa
Or ahead?!
passthatish
Banned
...kind of like xbox one is doing now.
If the userbase is there, these companies are going to figure out ways of getting more money from them.
just like consoles used to just be video game centric. now they encompass so much more.
weekend_warrior
Banned
Zatoichi's Cane
Member
I think people are worked up because to most people the reason for this kinnect push is entirely for gathering advertising info about consumers. We have not seen one good kinnect game demoed yet. Ryse, was supposed to be a kinnect game was changed.
If it's an opt-out thing then most people will not know/bother to do so. Then you have an always on camera/mic in your most personal space.
The box feels like it is a giant Trojan horse, to monitor what you watch on tv, what you play, where you go on the Internet...
The gaming aspect seems like an afterthought.
to be honest though, people don't give a shit about privacy. They give their details out for store loyalty cards so retailers can analyse their shopping habits and data mine them, in exchange for a few pence off now and again. They readily hand over their data if they think they'll get something back.
TBH MS's problem is being hidden with all this. Have a big 'opt in' marketing blitz, telling people how they'll get discounts from their favourite brands when they watch their ads, and how TV companies will get valuable information on the shows they like to watch. People will happily sign up.
but hide it behind unreadable T&Cs and have it leak - make it sound underhand - thats when consumers will turn against you.
TBH MS's problem is being hidden with all this. Have a big 'opt in' marketing blitz, telling people how they'll get discounts from their favourite brands when they watch their ads, and how TV companies will get valuable information on the shows they like to watch. People will happily sign up.
but hide it behind unreadable T&Cs and have it leak - make it sound underhand - thats when consumers will turn against you.
NullPointer
Member
Microsoft is trying to leverage their one successful consumer brand to save all of their other failing ventures, and the result is the mess you see before you.
James Chilton
Banned
I'd love to see whether any mainstream gaming websites pick this story up. Too much to ask?
They likely won't. They won't want badwill between them and MS.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
WTH?... I am never buying that abomination.
They won't need video of you in your underwear. They'll know who you are from your xbox live profile, and therefore your name and age, and they'll know which TV programs you're watching and therefore which ads.
In theory, the next step would be overlaying custom ads - replacing live TV ads because they are more customised and personal and you're more likely to watch them. But I imagine that is years away if at all
To me, buying an XB1 is like saying exactly how much you value your self-worth in privacy. And that cost $500. You vote to say, "Yes Microsoft. For $500 and a limited games selection, I will give you preliminary access to my house for advertising and I'll also pay you $60 a year for the privilege of using my console.". These consoles are hundred of dollars of investments, you NEED one to play the games that,are on it, it's not optional. And I can't understand why anyone would want an Xbox especially knowing Microsofts history when it comes to supporting it's hardware past the point where it starts selling itself.
I can't really agree with this sentiment, given the share number of games MS announced at E3 and the number of studios MS has built/acquired. Remember that most of the games MS announced at E3 where from 3rd party studios with their first party teams more than likely working on new stuff. Gaming is still a big focus for MS, the biggest I'd say. They just happen to be focused on other things too. They're trying to go after the mass market and although I'm not sure how this strategy is really going work out for them at launch at that price. But we'll see once the marketing push really turns up. I bet they have more Xbox fitness type stuff planned.
MesserWolf
Member
You know that normally your interests and the interested of people trying to sell you stuff are not always aligned ?
Usually they aim to squeeze some extra buck out of you.
One could argue that they are trying to get better ways and means to manipulate you/people near you into buy more stuff..... and you are even bearing the cost of giving them such tools (you pay for the kinetic ultimately).
Finally, of course, we can do that (at least it seems that now we can do that) .... however as you are forced to buy a camera with your console, a better option would be not to buy this console&camera altogether.
Nope, buying and Xbox One is about how much you want to play the games on their platform for $500 and that's how I expect most people buying it see it.
famousmortimer
Banned
So, yeah, I wrote about this a little over a month ago on my blog (which mostly just houses my podcast but when something pops up I write about it... I also wrote, back in august, that Sony still has a lot to prove. So, ya know, fair and balanced and all of that.
And as much as I love the clicks and hope that it turns into people listening to my podcast (210 episodes... i'm getting close to have as many episodes as listeners ><)... I also think that this info is pretty important. So click if you want (and any ads you see go to wordpress, I don't make a dime from the site... in fact I pay about $300 a year to host it and the podcast... maybe I need NuADs).
But here are some relevant quotes from Microsoft people(with their original sources):
NUads marks the beginning of a new era for TV advertising. It delivers the one thing traditional TV advertising is missing engagement. We developed NUads to breathe new life into the standard 30-second spot. With NUads, brands can get real-time feedback from audiences, making TV advertising actionable for the first time. - Ross Honey, general manager of Xbox LIVE Entertainment and Advertising (source = Time)
Nothing awful yet. Kinda gross, basically they want you to take part in ads.
This is where it gets scary:
How many people are in the living room? Are they taking any action based on the advertising they just saw? Can we watch the customers reaction, and if we can, do we have the capability of showing a different ad, or the same ad, depending on what the reaction was? Lynn Watts, Xbox Manager (source = CNET)
I believe this is the quote that Albert was talking about. He claims they aren't actually doing this.
This is also their stated privacy policy.
With respect to privacy, Xbox 360 and Xbox Live do not use any information captured by Kinect for advertising targeting purposes and NUads is no exception. Microsoft has a strong track record of implementing some of the best privacy protection measures in the industry. We place great importance on the privacy of our customers information and the safety of their experiences. A Microsoft spokesperson in response to CNET.
To that I call bullshit. This is where my own article get a little murky - because I talk about the NSA stuff now. People thought I was getting tinfoil-hat-ish (the article was popular on N4G when it went up so I was reading comments there... always fun). My point wasn't so much that the Kinect was going to be a NSA device. My point was that microsoft can't say stuff like "Microsoft has a strong track record of implementing some of the best privacy protection measures in the industry." Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks taught us that this isn't even close to true, Microsoft. You get no trust on this subject. And while I like albert penello quite a bit... I don't trust him on this subject either. They lost their trust with the NSA thing.
I can even believe, maybe, that there are no plans on data mining facial expressions and shit at launch. But they are sitting on a gold mine of data and, in my personal conjecture, I don't see how they stop themselves from mining it.
And as much as I love the clicks and hope that it turns into people listening to my podcast (210 episodes... i'm getting close to have as many episodes as listeners ><)... I also think that this info is pretty important. So click if you want (and any ads you see go to wordpress, I don't make a dime from the site... in fact I pay about $300 a year to host it and the podcast... maybe I need NuADs).
But here are some relevant quotes from Microsoft people(with their original sources):
NUads marks the beginning of a new era for TV advertising. It delivers the one thing traditional TV advertising is missing engagement. We developed NUads to breathe new life into the standard 30-second spot. With NUads, brands can get real-time feedback from audiences, making TV advertising actionable for the first time. - Ross Honey, general manager of Xbox LIVE Entertainment and Advertising (source = Time)
Nothing awful yet. Kinda gross, basically they want you to take part in ads.
This is where it gets scary:
How many people are in the living room? Are they taking any action based on the advertising they just saw? Can we watch the customers reaction, and if we can, do we have the capability of showing a different ad, or the same ad, depending on what the reaction was? Lynn Watts, Xbox Manager (source = CNET)
I believe this is the quote that Albert was talking about. He claims they aren't actually doing this.
This is also their stated privacy policy.
With respect to privacy, Xbox 360 and Xbox Live do not use any information captured by Kinect for advertising targeting purposes and NUads is no exception. Microsoft has a strong track record of implementing some of the best privacy protection measures in the industry. We place great importance on the privacy of our customers information and the safety of their experiences. A Microsoft spokesperson in response to CNET.
To that I call bullshit. This is where my own article get a little murky - because I talk about the NSA stuff now. People thought I was getting tinfoil-hat-ish (the article was popular on N4G when it went up so I was reading comments there... always fun). My point wasn't so much that the Kinect was going to be a NSA device. My point was that microsoft can't say stuff like "Microsoft has a strong track record of implementing some of the best privacy protection measures in the industry." Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks taught us that this isn't even close to true, Microsoft. You get no trust on this subject. And while I like albert penello quite a bit... I don't trust him on this subject either. They lost their trust with the NSA thing.
I can even believe, maybe, that there are no plans on data mining facial expressions and shit at launch. But they are sitting on a gold mine of data and, in my personal conjecture, I don't see how they stop themselves from mining it.
GillianSeed79
Member
That and selling consumer information to advertisers for market research is extremely, extremely lucrative. The deal should be if you opt-in (why anyone would do this I don't know) your Gold sub is free. There's something inherently greedy about forcing people to pay for Gold that has enough targeted advertising as it is and then turning around and making even more money off of people by selling your personal consumer information to advertisers.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I'm not so sure. A game like WatchDogs is perfect for implementing real ads into game without anyone really complaining. If the ads aren't too obtrusive and make the game feel more realistic and grounded, a lot of people won't even bat an eyelid.
It'll eventually reach a point where product placement is a common occurrence in games. It's an advertisers wet dream to have a product ad in a game that's a proven multi million seller. Lynx/Axe, McD, KFC, etc.
Yusuf Mehdi said:
I have vague ideas what he is hinting at there and I don't like these ideas at all.
Keep your advertising shit away from me. I don't want to see it in games if I pay for them and I don't want to see it on platform interfaces if I pay for them. Also, I loathe the notion of interacting with multiple screens or devices at once.
Zatoichi's Cane
Member
My point was hardware design. Of course they'll have good games for it, there is zero doubt about that, but whats the baggage that comes with it?
Sure you know enough to make an informed choice, but 90% people will have no idea what privacy implications leaving the xbone in its default settings will have.
Also, consider microsoft fitness and what wonderful information about your weight/height and fitness level you are giving them.
Can't they get sued or class-actioned over going against something in their TOS?
Not if their TOS forbids class action suits.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
And then they get a dvr and never see them.
I find myself (obviously this doesn't apply to everyone) that I have never been manipulated into buying something by an advert. Not once has an advert got me to buy something. An advert may cause me to research a product. However I have never bought something before looking into it.
Better advertising for me would just mean bringing more interesting items to light, things I would like to buy but wouldn't have known about previously. Currently adverts are a waste of space.
For one I don't know if this information ever leaves the consoles. But to the people that choose to use the service, the tradeoff is more than likely worth it. Still, I'd wait to hear more of what exactly the service entails before jumping to conclusions. Wii Fit seemed to work well enough without uploading anything.