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[Marvel]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

Thank you, very clear way of seeing the releases.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

Personally I'd like to see what the new games are and leave out the games that are already released and merely being ported.

 

[Pound_lb003]

How similar structurally is the 360's esram setup with the One's (rumored)? If they are similar wouldn't scaling up be relatively painless for developers since they have experience working with esram on the 360? Honest question, I have no idea.

In a practical sense they aren't similar at all. It will require relearning.

But they are similar in a design sense.

 

[Vizzeh]

How similar structurally is the 360's esram setup with the One's (rumored)? If they are similar wouldn't scaling up be relatively painless for developers since they have experience working with esram on the 360? Honest question, I have no idea.

the 360 had 22GB/s memory interface
with 10mb 256GB/s of EDRAM - 360 wasnt able to do 1080p either,

 

[Nightengale]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

People are mostly looking strictly at launch + Titanfall. And the weight of 'true AAA-exclusives' that is subjectively deemed superior in their views. ( Forza, Ryse, DR3 )

 

[jaypah]

Implying anyone that buys an XB1 isn't a hardcore gamer. The truth is if you're a hardcore gamer you buy all the consoles and have a gaming PC. The XB1 may be underpowered compared to the PS4 but it's the only place to play Forza, DR3 and Ryse.

While I think you can be a hardcore gamer and only own one platform I see where you're coming from. I buy all consoles for one reason...games. I bet on SNES and loved it but until I got a Genny way later I was extremely envious of the games that I was missing out on. When the 32bit generation started I said "never again" and have been multi console since then. The only thing I was missing was a PC but these days my PC sits proudly next to my consoles hooked to my TV. 12 year old Jaypah would be so amazed!

 

[Crisco]

The ESRAM issues will be sorted out, but 32MB is still 32MB. To fully utilize that cache, you need to do some kind of tile based rendering which will eat up a ton of memory bandwidth. That means less bandwidth for things like smoke, fire, and other particle effects. So eventually we will get 900p or even 1080p rendered geometry on the One, but the trade off will likely be lower resolution particle effects. The PS3 comparison is even more apt in this case. We all know how blurry and ugly explosions, shadows, and smoke effects look on PS3 games, even exclusives. Either that or dirt poor frame rates.

 

[Thrakier]

Implying anyone that buys an XB1 isn't a hardcore gamer. The truth is if you're a hardcore gamer you buy all the consoles and have a gaming PC. The XB1 may be underpowered compared to the PS4 but it's the only place to play Forza, DR3 and Ryse.

For me it's about quality, not quantity. I'm happy to just let a gameseries go if it does not fullfill my technichal minimum standards. Probably the reason why I am a pc gamer.

 

[omonimo]

Just imagine if xbone will sell like the first wii in the usa... one of the most embarassing thing for this country after Bush (is it bannable?)

 

[miDnIghtEr20C]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

To me that diagram shows the X1 launch line up is much stronger. Well known games coming from that side.

People keep saying launch. Launch is launch day to a month right? Or around that. Not launch window.

I agree with the people who think the X1 has the stronger day one launch line up. The only game I've heard of on the PS4 that the list shows for launch day is Killzone.

 

[SuperD77]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

It's a very nice diagram but it seems a little skewed on the PS4 side vs XB1 on which titles you included. For instance, off the top of my head shouldn't Xbox at least include Sam and Max Curse of Brotherhood and Below?

 

[statham]

the 360 had 22GB/s memory interface
with 10mb 256GB/s of EDRAM - 360 wasnt able to do 1080p either,

depends, Fable Anniversary is 1080p

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:




EDIT: CREDIT IS NOT MINE FOR CREATING THIS DIAGRAM. I just copied the image from the link provided by

No way we're getting FF XV next year.

 

[Jack_AG]

Implying anyone that buys an XB1 isn't a hardcore gamer. The truth is if you're a hardcore gamer you buy all the consoles and have a gaming PC. The XB1 may be underpowered compared to the PS4 but it's the only place to play Forza, DR3 and Ryse.

No. "Hardcore" is defined by your affinity to games, even if after all these years its just Pong. You don't need to own everything to take gaming seriously or to a level nobody else does.

That's like telling me I'm not a gearhead because I don't own every car. False, false, false.

 

[davepoobond]

They are stuck with what they have for the rest of this gen. You can't split your base.

Kinect less version will be an upgraded hardware version. 2 million consoles is nothing compared to the 100 million it'll eventually sell. Nip it in the bud.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Also, Below is only timed exclusive for the Bone. It'll be on PS4 at some point.

 

[jaypah]

For me it's about quality, not quantity. I'm happy to just let a gameseries go if it does not fullfill my technichal minimum standards. Probably the reason why I am a pc gamer.

Nothing wrong with that. Some people can look past shortcomings, some people can but don't want to. With a powerful enough PC you can get over the threshold of acceptable performance, unless an individual wants games to look like a Pixar movie. Personally PS1 games still get played at home so jank doesn't bother me so much. I bought a WiiU launch day and love it so, yeah, I guess I don't have standards, lol. I just want to play new games.

 

[Racer1977]

For me it's about quality, not quantity. I'm happy to just let a gameseries go if it does not fullfill my technichal minimum standards. Probably the reason why I am a pc gamer.

Next gen, I think many gamers will be reluctant to have two subscriptions, people are cutting back, the luxury of having two consoles could be a thing of the past*.


*Until prices drop significantly

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

No. "Hardcore" is defined by your affinity to games, even if after all these years its juat Pong. You don't need to own everything to take gaming seriously or to a level nobody else does.

That's like telling me I'm not a gearhead because I don't own every car. False, false, false.

If you only like 1 song from a band you are not a hardcore fan of that band. Gearhead is more about knowledge.

 

[StudioTan]

While I think you can be a hardcore gamer and only own one platform I see where you're coming from. I buy all consoles for one reason...games. I bet on SNES and loved it but until I got a Genny way later I was extremely envious of the games that I was missing out on. When the 32bit generation started I said "never again" and have been multi console since then. The only thing I was missing was a PC but these days my PC sits proudly next to my consoles hooked to my TV. 12 year old Jaypah would be so amazed!

Well, obviously money is also a factor. I'm not buying both consoles at launch due to finances and so since the XB1 has games I want to play at launch and the PS4 doesn't that's my first choice. Next year when the PS4 gets some games that interest me I'll pick one up.

For me it's about quality, not quantity. I'm happy to just let a gameseries go if it does not fullfill my technichal minimum standards. Probably the reason why I am a pc gamer.

Forza and Ryse aren't quality titles? Killer Instinct isn't quality? Come on now.

 

[Vizzeh]

The ESRAM issues will be sorted out, but 32MB is still 32MB. To fully utilize that cache, you need to do some kind of tile based rendering which will eat up a ton of memory bandwidth. That means less bandwidth for things like smoke, fire, and other particle effects. So eventually we will get 900p or even 1080p rendered geometry on the One, but the trade off will likely be lower resolution particle effects. The PS3 comparison is even more apt in this case. We all know how blurry and ugly explosions, shadows, and smoke effects look on PS3 games, even exclusives. Either that or dirt poor frame rates.

If your suggesting splitting the buffer between the Esram and DDR3, asfar as I know you get sync issues and screen tearing. But 32mb is 32mb, no amount of good programming can allow for hardware that doesn't exist that is necessary to produce the visuals needed.

I actually thought they would be using their Esram for tiled resources (stage 1: hardware 11.1DX (driver update) but if its being used for a frame buffer Im not sure if thats possible but they only need 16mb of space.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

It's very possible that timing forced their hands into a something less than ideal, but over time, every console regardless of fixed quirks and hurdles in its hardware, finds ways to overcome or mask them with succeeding software waves. There's not a single example of this not happening on consoles that live, at least, a couple of years.

For sure, there are going to be a bunch of great games for X1 that will make use of the available power.

 

[jaypah]

Just imagine if xbone will sell like the first wii in the usa... one of the most embarassing thing for this country after Bush (is it bannable?)

Just imagine if it doesn't! But seriously I don't think that's bannable, but generally if you have to ask...

edit: oh, you edited in Wii. Very smart!

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Kinect less version will be an upgraded hardware version. 2 million consoles is nothing compared to the 100 million it'll eventually sell. Nip it in the bud.

I agree. Sell a Kinectless-SKU and undercut the price of the PS4 (i.e., sell for $299 or 349). The value prop is there in that instance.

 

[omonimo]

Just imagine if it doesn't! But seriously I don't think that's bannable, but generally if you have to ask...

Well, my mind refuse to believe this console will sell something but I thought the same about the wii at the time.

 

[Manmademan]

No way we're getting FF XV next year.

I can see that as q4 in jp, q1 2015 in US like lightning returns

 

[MysticGoujon]

Implying anyone that buys an XB1 isn't a hardcore gamer. The truth is if you're a hardcore gamer you buy all the consoles and have a gaming PC. The XB1 may be underpowered compared to the PS4 but it's the only place to play Forza, DR3 and Ryse.

Completely agree with all of that, that's why my front room contains an Xbox 360, PS3, Wii U, and SNES, and my gaming pc is next door in the bedroom. My gaming purchases over the next year will only be an Xbox One and maybe a new graphics card, but ill probably end up finding an excuse to get a PS4 by the later stages of the generation(although to be fair Bluray and LBP won me over this time, that Bluray advantage wont still exist this gen).

The thing I find funny about some (not all by a long shot) of the people who claim they're hardcore gamers is that they think that hardcore gamers all share their opinion, ie one platform only, ironically that couldn't be further from the truth, that's called being a fanboy. For the most part hardcore gamers will want to own as many systems and games as is financially viable, an interest in just one system for a gamer is an exception to the rule, as opposed to being the rule, and is usually PC specific gamers, which is fair enough.

 

[jaypah]

Well, my mind refuse to believe this console will sell something but I thought the same about the wii at the time.

But your edit doesn't make sense now. Why would the 180 selling as well as the Wii be an embarrassment for America, akin to George Bush?

 

[Manmademan]

I agree. Sell a Kinectless-SKU and undercut the price of the PS4 (i.e., sell for $299 or 349). The value prop is there in that instance.

Its good for consumers, but bad for anyone developing a Kinect heavy game, and bad for Microsofts ad revenues.

There's no doubt in my mind that MS is able to charge way more for ads with the accuracy Kinect offers than they are on 360.

 

[omonimo]

Well, obviously money is also a factor. I'm not buying both consoles at launch due to finances and so since the XB1 has games I want to play at launch and the PS4 doesn't that's my first choice. Next year when the PS4 gets some games that interest me I'll pick one up.



Forza and Ryse aren't quality titles? Killer Instinct isn't quality? Come on now.

Wait a minute, we are talking of the same developers of Crysis 3 right? Well.... Forza I think is a good game but I don't think it deserves 499 $ just for the console... honestly just because I think to be an hardcore game, I don't see the reason to buy an underpowered overpriced console just for a bunch of exclusive. Sounds crazy to me.

 

[andromeduck]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:




EDIT: CREDIT IS NOT MINE FOR CREATING THIS DIAGRAM. I just copied the image from the link provided by

rime? the witness?

and lol "transister"

 

[omonimo]

But your edit doesn't make sense now. Why would the 180 selling as well as the Wii be an embarrassment for America, akin to George Bush?

Uh right, I need to be more precise. Imagine if xbone will sell like the wii because it's name just in america. But it was just a paradox, price is too high even for its name.

 

[Mr.Speedy]

I agree. Sell a Kinectless-SKU and undercut the price of the PS4 (i.e., sell for $299 or 349). The value prop is there in that instance.

Holiday 2014 bundle with Titanfall, extra controller, live sub and no Kinect for $349 would sell like crazy.

 

[gaming_noob]

Holiday 2014 bundle with Titanfall, extra controller, live sub and no Kinect for $349 would sell like crazy.

Holiday 2013 bundle with no Kinect, Forza 5, Full version of Killer Instinct, 5 years of LIVE Gold, for $299.99.

 

[jaypah]

Uh right, I need to be more precise. Imagine if xbone will sell like the wii because it's name just in america. But it was just a paradox, price is too high even for its name.

What? Why would that be an embarrassment to the US and what does it have to do with George Bush?

 

[mrklaw]

Whatever about the comparison to PS2 for relative bandwidth, the benefits are still there to allow upwards of relatively large data structures with high access patterns to be available on demand near to the chip instead of waiting on going to main memory and dealing with whatever extra considerations there are for contention. MS clearly designed this with the intention of mitigating this potential issue with its inclusion of additional prefetching options and added logic (in their custom hardware scheduler which has not been discussed in detail yet, likely because of currently non-optimal software defining its behavior) and extra data move units to help that happen more seamlessly and with less burden placed upon the GPU itself. Looking just at the local memory isn't enough when they put all of these pieces in there to facilitate some sort of ideal operation based on future expectations of its use through the lifetime of the hardware. I am not stating that it will be the secret sauce that puts it over its competition, I am stating that the clear philosophy of the system is to offload as much traditional, general tasks and its burden off what it very weak tablet/laptop class hardware, specwise, so that they're getting more useful output for the duration of its active development. They put a lot of fixed function hardware in there to help that happen. Whether that benefits them in the first wave or fourth wave of software, no one knows. I assume that they're banking on the usual trajectory of console development where teams have to dig deeper and deeper to produce greater advancements in output and, by simple matter of course, they have to rearchitect their software every wave or two to take better advantage of the aging hardware they have to work with. It's not a different idea to Mark Cerny's presumption that PS4 developers will gain more in later years by going deeper into hardware that is barely utilized or not at all in the early going.

but the ESRAM doesn't have a latency advantage. if you want random access to a large data structure (as your example) you might as well just keep it in main memory and not use up the ESRAM, which will be mainly used for render targets.

And while yes, tools and learning will improve, the best you'll get is an aggregate figure approaching PS4's standard bandwidth which requires no effort to acheive. And that will still be feeding far fewer CUs.

I see the Xbox improving a lot (at least by first parties, third parties may be slower depending how quickly tools mature) but there is also plenty of room for growth with PS4. And the Xbox simply has a lower potential ceiling.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:




EDIT: CREDIT IS NOT MINE FOR CREATING THIS DIAGRAM. I just copied the image from the link provided by

I think I'm reading this wrong. Obviously the first grey areas on either side are 3rd party exclusives, but what's the middle? 3rd party on both? If so what's the bottom grey segment? Aren't those also 3rd party on both?

EDIT: Never mind, I think I got it. The inner circle shows PC stuff too right? The bottom grey area are 3rd party games on console but not PC.

 

[mrklaw]

grey areas on the sides are PC+that console
dark grey is PC + both consoles
bottom grey is both consoles but not PC

 

[jaypah]

I think I'm reading this wrong. Obviously the first grey areas on either side are 3rd party exclusives, but what's the middle? 3rd party on both? If so what's the bottom grey segment? Aren't those also 3rd party on both?

The circle in the middle is PC.

edit: Bingo, you got it.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

I think I'm reading this wrong. Obviously the first grey areas on either side are 3rd party exclusives, but what's the middle? 3rd party on both? If so what's the bottom grey segment? Aren't those also 3rd party on both?

EDIT: Never mind, I think I got it. The inner circle shows PC stuff too right? The bottom grey area are 3rd party games on console but not PC.

The Middle is PS4, XB1 and PC

 

[Goku]

I think I'm reading this wrong. Obviously the first grey areas on either side are 3rd party exclusives, but what's the middle? 3rd party on both? If so what's the bottom grey segment? Aren't those also 3rd party on both?

EDIT: Never mind, I think I got it. The inner circle shows PC stuff too right? The bottom grey area are 3rd party games on console but not PC.

The middle circle are games that are also coming to PC, hence the windows logo.
Edit: Didn't see the edit, my bad.

 

[borghe]

Holiday 2014 bundle with Titanfall, extra controller, live sub and no Kinect for $349 would sell like crazy.

No shit. Because that price is Black Friday-esque low and MS would lose money per bundle sold a year after launch.

Unless your goal is to drive the division to collapse under continued losses. In which case then you are right.

 

[BeastLeeAdams]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

Except it does not include: Sunset OverDrive, Quantum Break, Fable Legends, and Black Tusk AAA on the TBA for Xbox One.

 

[gofreak]

Whatever about the comparison to PS2 for relative bandwidth, the benefits are still there to allow upwards of relatively large data structures with high access patterns to be available on demand near to the chip instead of waiting on going to main memory and dealing with whatever extra considerations there are for contention. MS clearly designed this with the intention of mitigating this potential issue with its inclusion of additional prefetching options and added logic (in their custom hardware scheduler which has not been discussed in detail yet, likely because of currently non-optimal software defining its behavior) and extra data move units to help that happen more seamlessly and with less burden placed upon the GPU itself. Looking just at the local memory isn't enough when they put all of these pieces in there to facilitate some sort of ideal operation based on future expectations of its use through the lifetime of the hardware. I am not stating that it will be the secret sauce that puts it over its competition, I am stating that the clear philosophy of the system is to offload as much traditional, general tasks and its burden off what it very weak tablet/laptop class hardware, specwise, so that they're getting more useful output for the duration of its active development. They put a lot of fixed function hardware in there to help that happen. Whether that benefits them in the first wave or fourth wave of software, no one knows. I assume that they're banking on the usual trajectory of console development where teams have to dig deeper and deeper to produce greater advancements in output and, by simple matter of course, they have to rearchitect their software every wave or two to take better advantage of the aging hardware they have to work with. It's not a different idea to Mark Cerny's presumption that PS4 developers will gain more in later years by going deeper into hardware that is barely utilized or not at all in the early going.

I agree that usage is going to get better as time goes by. But I don't think the potential upside is 'similar' to PS2 which is all I was really disagreeing with. The upside of PS2's memory setup was (for the time) extraordinary bandwidth which for a graphics chip is of far more relevance than perhaps corner case latency benefits. PS2 had an uncommon characteristic in a resource really important to rendering (bandwidth).

 

[SneakyStephan]

Is this the thread where we come to discuss ESRAM?

No hardware discussion now, only console/list wars

 

[Brofield]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:




EDIT: CREDIT IS NOT MINE FOR CREATING THIS DIAGRAM. I just copied the image from the link provided by

Just because people are messing with my head, and now it's not included in the diagram, is Kingdom Hearts 3 exclusive to PS4, or it is also coming to Xbone?

 

[Thrakier]

Forza and Ryse aren't quality titles? Killer Instinct isn't quality? Come on now.

I'm not much interested in Racing or Fighting. But yeah, I wouldn't buy a 720p fighting game these days. No chance. Lair, sorry, Rise, will be a catastrophe, I'm sure about that.

 

[bigboss370]

As a long time MS fanboy, this whole resolution nonsense has me pissed! Pissed at Microsoft for letting this happen! F*** the cloud! F*** ESRAM! F*** it all!

Just saw the screens of The Order. Screw it - I'm getting a PS4.

i lol'd for real at this

All these CBOAT posts about hardware are of no interest to me. If you're reading this dude, bring the software leaks next time.

I want to know what MS are up to.

he's said that the black tusk game is looking real good

 

[Kagari]

Except it does not include: Sunset OverDrive, Quantum Break, Fable Legends, and Black Tusk AAA on the TBA for Xbox One.

Those were all slated for 2014? News to me.

 

[Barzul]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:




EDIT: CREDIT IS NOT MINE FOR CREATING THIS DIAGRAM. I just copied the image from the link provided by

Because a lot the games on the PS4 have been on PC or PS3 for ages. I know for some indies are a big deal, but I'm not spending $400 on a machine only to get games I can play on the PC. The PS4 simply doesn't have enough exclusive AAA experiences at launch. When I'm showing friends what the device is capable of and trying to get them to buy the machine, it won't be Doki Doki Universe and [Insert Indie game here]. It will be for Titanfall or Halo, Infamous or Uncharted. Indie games while good just don't typically offer experiences in the scale that you would get from AAA games. I'd trade half those indies and f2p for another Uncharted and other big IP at launch. I know my opinion is an unpopular one.