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[Reallink]

I don't think it all boils down to a generational gap. I'm 32 and I still think Zelda and Metroid are bordering on unplayable. I never had the patience to finish them as a kid, and that hasn't changed now. They're both fun games and have solid gameplay, but the nonlinearity and complete lack of direction combined with no automap make both just too much of a chore to play unassisted.

I ran into some similar head scratchers with OoT 3D. I forgot you had to

Spoiler

drag the statue in the Goron Chiefs room

to get into the Fire Temple. Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember there being any hint, suggestion, direction for you do so--Vs. any other random inanimate object in the game world. There were a handful of similar quirks that just struck me as being completely random, logic-less, and senseless--without so much as a subtle hint or nudge for the player.

 

[El Pescado]

It breaks my heart to see people say games like Zelda and Metroid are "broken" and "unplayable". These are the games that I built the foundation of my gaming skills on and now people feel like they're trash?

 

[WordAssassin]

So I surrendered my ambassador games and black 3DS to someone else in exchange for a brand new Flame Red 3DS. The irony? The squeaky D-pad that bothered me while playing Ambassador games so much does not exist on this red model, which has no such NES games. At least I'm more likely to pick up more Virtual Console stuff now, though, since it won't be literally annoying to play anymore.

But, Nintendo said you could transfer the games. Why didn't you transfer them to your new system?

 

[fernoca]

But, Nintendo said you could transfer the games. Why didn't you transfer them to your new system?

The option is there; but it hasn't been enabled yet. On a "future" system update.

 

[fernoca]

I ran into some similar head scratchers with OoT 3D. I forgot you had to

Spoiler

drag the statue in the Goron Chiefs room

to get into the Fire Temple. Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember there being any hint, suggestion, direction for you do so--Vs. any other random inanimate object in the game world. There were a handful of similar quirks that just struck me as being completely random, logic-less, and senseless--without so much as a subtle hint or nudge for the player.

The key is always to contact Saria (as kid) or Navi. Navi is going to bother you is you spend an amount of time doing nothing and she will give you a hint "Check this", "Go there".

That 'statue' thing, the "kid" tells you the entrance is there; so it hints that it's "hidden" around there.

While I agree that the hints and teases are sometimes really vague (and others just not exist); it doesn't mean the games are broken. In the original Zelda you're told by someone or something were to go next. in Zelda Ii if you talk to people in towns or around, they also do give you hints. It was also part of the "tradition" back then of letting players discover things as their own; which lead to many discovering "glitches" (like the previously mentioned Zelda II one) and other kind of things (like the passwords in Metroid).


EDIT:
Dammit this was supposed to be an "edit"; to the previous post.

 

[WordAssassin]

The option is there; but it hasn't been enabled yet. On a "future" system update.

Ah, well hopefully he is still pals with the person he swapped DSes with so he can switch 'em over.

 

[fernoca]

Ah, well hopefully he is still pals with the person he swapped DSes with so he can switch 'em over.

Depends on if the ambassador games were part of the deal.

 

[Lupin the Third]

Depends on if the ambassador games were part of the deal.

Indeed they were.

It's okay, though. Until the 3DS Pan comes out later on, I'll still experience physical pain playing games using the A+B-only configuration like the VC/Ambassador titles, so I don't feel I'm missing out too much.

 

[Unai]

I ran into some similar head scratchers with OoT 3D. I forgot you had to

Spoiler

drag the statue in the Goron Chiefs room

to get into the Fire Temple. Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember there being any hint, suggestion, direction for you do so--Vs. any other random inanimate object in the game world. There were a handful of similar quirks that just struck me as being completely random, logic-less, and senseless--without so much as a subtle hint or nudge for the player.

There is a hint. One of the gorons tells you to do that.

 

[womp]

I don't think it all boils down to a generational gap. I'm 32 and I still think Zelda and Metroid are bordering on unplayable. I never had the patience to finish them as a kid, and that hasn't changed now. They're both fun games and have solid gameplay, but the nonlinearity and complete lack of direction combined with no automap make both just too much of a chore to play unassisted.

But the point of Zelda was the lack of direction. Read up on Miyamoto's original brainstorming for its design - He contributed it to being lost in the woods to explore the unknown.

There is a reason why you can get the second best sword in the game within 10 min of starting it, almost bypassing even getting the wooden sword.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

It breaks my heart to see people say games like Zelda and Metroid are "broken" and "unplayable". These are the games that I built the foundation of my gaming skills on and now people feel like they're trash?

Metroid has certainly not aged well, and parts of Zelda haven't either. A lot of the puzzles in these games offer irrational solutions, which were remedied by Nintendo Power or guides back in the day.

There's nothing wrong with saying one of your favorite games has not aged well. There are several critically acclaimed titles this gen that will probably take this route--RDR, Heavy Rain, for instance (though these are for different reasons)--it;s very common

 

[jamesinclair]

Finally beat my record!

42,160 on Balloon Trip. 40,000 was a bitch to pass.

 

[SmokedMeat]

It breaks my heart to see people say games like Zelda and Metroid are "broken" and "unplayable". These are the games that I built the foundation of my gaming skills on and now people feel like they're trash?

I'm 38yrs old, and I hated Metroid back when it released. Now Zelda on the otherhand was awesome.

I remember spending time just burning bushes and bombing rocks and walls trying to locate secrets, and such. There was no strategy guide, Youtube walkthroughs, or handholding back then, and we would mark the map that came with the game, and share our info. There's never been anything like it since, and never will be again. It was a different world back then.

 

[Socreges]

Zelda II is awesome. Difficulty + areas being far away from your home base. As you progress in the game, you have to venture further away from where you have to continue if you die x3. This, at least for me, really delivers the feeling of being out on an adventure and estranged. Wind Waker also did this well, but in a different way (sailing).

 

[Freezie KO]

Wow - this thread is a a good example of the generation gap amongst gamers. Never would I have expected to see comments like "Zelda/Metroid are fundamentally broken." I don't entirely blame you guys that feel this way, because it's a good example of how modern games hold the player's hand with things like quest pointers/compasses, etc. Things that were commonplace, and games that millions of people experienced and loved are now considered "fundamentally broken" by modern gamers.

The games are still fundamentally broken, even the new iterations to a much, much lesser degree. Any game that requires you to consult an outside source (i.e. GameFAQs) without giving you the adequate tools in-game to complete it is broken IMO. Ask yourself if you ever needed GameFAQs to beat a Zelda title. If yes, then the devs have failed.

Didn't like Zelda/Metroid when I was playing Mario and Chip 'n' Dale's Rescue Rangers on my NES, and I don't like them now.

 

[BocoDragon]

The games are still fundamentally broken, even the new iterations to a much, much lesser degree. Any game that requires you to consult an outside source (i.e. GameFAQs) without giving you the adequate tools in-game to complete it is broken IMO. Ask yourself if you ever needed GameFAQs to beat a Zelda title. If yes, then the devs have failed.

Didn't like Zelda/Metroid when I was playing Mario and Chip 'n' Dale's Rescue Rangers on my NES, and I don't like them now.

Yeah it really sucked. No one could beat Zelda 1 for the first 10 years because they were waiting for GameFAQs to be invented

I beat Zelda 1 when I was 6 years old. No guides. How? Talking to people in the real world. There was an amazing "word of mouth" thing with these early NES games... people look back fondly on "playground game talk" for a reason.. It was a social experience that extended the game into the meta world of real life.

So you say "GameFAQs", but it was never that SIMPLE.. and that's what made it so compelling. It wasnt a matter of being a "chore" to leave the game and google the answer: there was no easy answer, and you had no expectation that there would be an easy answer. It was a legimate adventure that you had to dig at for a long time. Only genuine "lore" from the real community would help you.. Much like advice from characters in fantasy novels which comes in handy later in the adventure, the advice swapped via word of mouth went a long way to making the experience more rewarding.

 

[CreatureX3]

The games are still fundamentally broken, even the new iterations to a much, much lesser degree. Any game that requires you to consult an outside source (i.e. GameFAQs) without giving you the adequate tools in-game to complete it is broken IMO.

The "tools" to beat the original Zelda and Metroid are there. It's called exploration.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

I'm very much of the generation that would have played the original Zelda when it was first released (though I never did), and I still find it incredibly difficult and frustrating. I'm persevering because I have a lingering sense that my younger self would be ashamed if I quit now.

However looking at an online scan of the original manual, I find that at least some of these frustrations could have been avoided had Nintendo given us an electronic version of it in-game. Is this something they do for full VC releases? Curious as I've never bought one before, and it seems kinda necessary for a game like Zelda.

 

[louie]

Ahh fuck. Made it to Tourian in Metroid but ended up dying. Now I only have 50 missiles and 30 health to beat mother brain.

 

[Koren]

The games are still fundamentally broken, even the new iterations to a much, much lesser degree. Any game that requires you to consult an outside source (i.e. GameFAQs) without giving you the adequate tools in-game to complete it is broken IMO. Ask yourself if you ever needed GameFAQs to beat a Zelda title. If yes, then the devs have failed.

You need Gamefaqs to beat a Zelda or a Metroid?

Granted, I thing that the second quest of Zelda 1 takes a lot of time for bombing/putting fire and such everywhere, but anything after the very first game just require some exploration/thinking.


Yes, I looked for a clue in Zelda III booklet after looking for the burglar's temple boss maybe half an hour. It was stupid, the trick was obvious, and I still regret it nowadays. Since then, I decided never to look for a solution, and never had problem with that. More rewarding, never bothersome. Their level-design is great.


The only developper that do it partly the wrong way is Square. They want to sell their official books, so some tricks are just retarded. How could you guess that, in FF XII, you shouldn't open the 6th crate in the second donjon if you want the X spear without 50h of grinding? Their hidden secrets are retarded.

I've yet to see Nintendo do the same, and I've 100% nearly all Zelda/Metroid to date.

 

[Gravijah]

Ahh fuck. Made it to Tourian in Metroid but ended up dying. Now I only have 50 missiles and 30 health to beat mother brain.

Metroids give lots of life and missiles.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Ask yourself if you ever needed GameFAQs to beat a Zelda title. If yes, then the devs have failed.

Nope.

Didn't need one for Metroid, either.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

How could you guess that, in FF XII, you shouldn't open the 6th crate in the second donjon if you want the X spear without 50h of grinding? Their hidden secrets are retarded.

Yes, but that isn't a requirement to finish the game.

Finding some of the dungeons in Zelda isn't impossible without a guide, but it is difficult and very unintuitive. Without a manual/map you're basically asked to wander around and do random shit until something happens.

 

[Glix]

Yes, but that isn't a requirement to finish the game.

Finding some of the dungeons in Zelda isn't impossible without a guide, but it is difficult and very unintuitive. Without a manual/map you're basically asked to wander around and do random shit until something happens.

Yeah, omg!! You have to find it!!! Without a guide!!! There's no win button!! I can't say racist things into a mic!!! I hate it!!!!

Wahhhhhh.

Good, you people don't deserve to play these games anyway.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

Good, you people don't deserve to play these games anyway.

Umm...I am playing it? And I didn't ask for a guide, I asked for the manual. Which the original game had.

I can't say racist things into a mic!!!

I get the sarcasm but...yeah...whatever :|

 

[BocoDragon]

The only developper that do it partly the wrong way is Square. They want to sell their official books, so some tricks are just retarded. How could you guess that, in FF XII, you shouldn't open the 6th crate in the second donjon if you want the X spear without 50h of grinding? Their hidden secrets are retarded.

I never understood the hatred for that one. It's an easter egg, an uber ultra secret. You're not supposed to get that weapon.. It's a secret option just like a "cheat code". If it wasn't for the spoiling power of guides in the first place, you probably wouldn't even know about it. It would show up in the "mind blowing secrets" thread.

You can say that it's "to sell guides".. But you seem to think that the game itself should telegraph a secret to you. I'd say it's not really a secret if the game funnels you toward it with clues. No one ever told you the Konami code within the confines of the game.

 

[DJ_Tet]

Rescue Rangers and Duck Tails were both awesome, but terribly easy games. Beat both on a two day rental.

But maybe that was because I was a super badass with a laser rocket arm who beat Metroid, Zelda and Kid Icarus without gamefaqs. Never could beat RC Pro Am, always choked on the last race

 

[Narpas Sword0]

Not necessarily. Remember, for every person who downloaded those 10 Ambassador games, that's roughly $50 in potential lost revenue because none of those people will need to buy any of those 10 games. In the case of the GBA games, there's $0 potential lost revenue if they never release them on the eShop. So simply giving us 20 games planned for release, they'd be doubling the potential lost revenue.

So they would prefer guaranteed 0 revenue? Why not capitalize on what will be millions of post price drop buyers with $10 lazy rom dumps with no frills?

 

[jgkspsx]

Finally beat my record!

42,160 on Balloon Trip. 40,000 was a bitch to pass.

I scored 59,000+ my second trip. *flexes flap-button pressing muscles*

Spoiler

I haven't beaten that score yet, though...

I think my top score on the Wii VC is 100K+

Balloon Fight is pretty much my favorite timewaster in Nintendo's catalog. (Just ahead of Clu Clu Land.) I'm really happy they included it in the Ambassador program.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Finding some of the dungeons in Zelda isn't impossible without a guide, but it is difficult and very unintuitive. Without a manual/map you're basically asked to wander around and do random shit until something happens.

Or just read the clues the game gives you directly which tells you where they are...

The only thing I can think of that the game doesn't just come out and tell you, is if a dungeon map has an empty square somewhere in the middle, you can bomb to get inside it.

 

[rhino4evr]

Just want to say fuck all the kids that are saying Zelda is broken. Seriously, fuck you guys. Grow some balls. I beat that game on my own 25 years ago. Zelda was a puzzle game, if you know what to do you can finish the game In an hour or two...but I spent months finding all the secrets. This was a 30-50 hour game back In the day,mainly because you had to explore and discover on your own.

 

[Cheesemeister]

I've got 179,770 on Balloon Trip.

 

[Peru]

Balloon Trip is such a good timewaster. Made me start thinking that a lot of these early Nintendo console games were like the iOs mobile games of today - one core, addictive mechanic explored. Balloon Fight could have been an itunes hit today and no one would have thought it peculiar.

 

[jamesinclair]

I've got 179,770 on Balloon Trip.

Pictures or we dont believe you.

 

[Socreges]

Love the secret in Darunia (Zelda II):

Spoiler

Your only hint, so far as I know, is that there's a knight somewhere in the town. That's it. I was going around town, completely confused, and would have given up, but I've got this weird habit of jumping constantly to get anywhere instead of just running. I noticed that I was hitting the roofs of some of the buildings. That meant that I could get up on them. Then I noticed the chimneys. Tried a few, nothing. Then I tried another.... and went inside. The feeling of surprise/satisfaction is something that I probably haven't gotten from a videogame in years. Awesome.

I wonder if I might have been tipped off by a very distant memory in the recess of my brain, though. I barely remember anything about the game, but some things have been creeping back.

 

[thirty]

Balloon Trip is such a good timewaster. Made me start thinking that a lot of these early Nintendo console games were like the iOs mobile games of today - one core, addictive mechanic explored. Balloon Fight could have been an itunes hit today and no one would have thought it peculiar.

I made this thread and was called crazy

 

[Cheesemeister]

Pictures or we dont believe you.

 

[Celine]

Zelda II is awesome. Difficulty + areas being far away from your home base. As you progress in the game, you have to venture further away from where you have to continue if you die x3. This, at least for me, really delivers the feeling of being out on an adventure and estranged. Wind Waker also did this well, but in a different way (sailing).

What I really like is the risk vs reward component and the fact that it's very easy to progress ( level up, find new items or improve mana or HP ) even if you don't beat a temple in the session.
The chambara system is neat while being overall simple and there is the usual Nintendo-like design.
For example on of the first area in the second dungeon is exactly the same as in the first one just with the introduction of a new type of enemy that you should adapt how to beat.

 

[Gaspode_T]

I've got 179,770 on Balloon Trip.

I would have bought a 3DS for a Balloon Fight with some sort of online high scores/leaderboards (and filter by friends). It is seriously still one of my favorite NES games in a pinch, even though it is a shameless Joust ripoff.

 

[jamesinclair]

[]http://i.imgur.com/10Ooh.jpg[/IMG]

Mother of pearl....

And I just came onto GAF to announce I broke my own personal record again today with 55,860.

I cant even imagine going on 100,000+ trip.

 

[Tyeforce]

How do you guys get so far in Balloon Trip?! I can barely make it to 10,000. >.> Stupid shocky things are too damn hard to avoid.

 

[beje]

Seriously, if getting a piece of graph paper and a pencil to draw a map and take notes as you're playing, as well as having "Basic reading ability" to understand an instructions manual you can easily find scanned on the internet is THAT much of a trouble you might as well turn in the gamer card you're supposed to inherently have if you manage to reach the "Member" status on NeoGAF and go back to COD or WoW.

 

[Sinthetic]

I've got 102,000 on Balloon Trip and 250,000 on Balloon Fight.

Looks like I've got some work to do to beat the score on this page.

 

[Roto13]

The games are still fundamentally broken, even the new iterations to a much, much lesser degree. Any game that requires you to consult an outside source (i.e. GameFAQs) without giving you the adequate tools in-game to complete it is broken IMO. Ask yourself if you ever needed GameFAQs to beat a Zelda title. If yes, then the devs have failed.

Not if the reason you needed a guide was because you were a dumbass.

 

[dragonfart28]

3DS note pad and pause state has officially turned Zelda into a playable "game" for me now. I previously never really grasped that you can die in this game, but continue your progress. In fact, I never really found any dungeons until now, lol

Will tackle Metroid after trudging through this.

 

[Desiato]

The final temple in Zelda 2 is a total bitch. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGEEEE.

 

[Death Dealer]

Just want to say fuck all the kids that are saying Zelda is broken. Seriously, fuck you guys. Grow some balls. I beat that game on my own 25 years ago.

Isn't it pathetic to hear adults complain about the difficulty of The Legend of Zelda, when so many of us beat the game while in grade school ? Even back then, the game didn't have a reputation for being "hard". After reading so many statements about Zelda of all games being 'impossible' or that it is 'broken' without a strategy guide, it's no wonder to me that they don't make AAA turn based RPGs anymore. Those games required more mental effort than the majority of gamers want to exert today.

 

[KevinCow]

Zelda isn't hard, just really tedious.

It isn't difficult to bomb every wall, burn every bush, and draw your own map. It just isn't fun.

 

[Javier]

You know, I would love to see the next Zelda bring back the concept of the maze-for-a-dungeon that only the final dungeons in the NES Zeldas had. Seeing a dungeon were half the rooms are completely useless dead ends would certainly be interesting in a full 3D game.

 

[Gino]

It's crazy to call Zelda 1 broken. Yes it's hard but if you stick with you will eventually learn to control the game. If it's too tough just use maps. There are maps of the over world and every dungeon on the internet. I would recommend at least trying to get through the dungeons on your own though.

Believe it or not people do get through these games despite their difficulty.