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A Man Who’s Probably Innocent Will Die Today, And Lawyers Can’t Save Him

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What does this even have to do with the death penalty? So letting him rot in jail is a better outcome?

Option A) You get killed

Option B) You stay in jail till a point in time where you might be released due to a change in verdict.

HMMMM I WONDER WHICH ONE IS BETTER?

Like, wtf, this has everything to do with the death penalty. Is this a sarcasm post and I'm missing something?
 

BamfMeat

Member
I am for the death penalty when there is absolutely, insanely no way ever that it could be proven otherwise that the person that is being deathed is not guilty. I'm talking multiple eyewitnesses PLUS video (I'd even throw in multiple videos from different cameras in the area would be required) PLUS the person would have to have admitted doing it and there couldn't be a defense that the person was coerced into a confession. I'd also even go so far as to make it a requirement that they had to have premeditated it and planned it ahead of time. If any of these things are in question, AT ALL, death penalty off the table. Period. Basically, you'd have someone deathed like, once every 100 years.

This case has literally none of these things. None. Therefore this case is bullshit. This guy needs to be let go immediately. This shouldn't have even gotten to this point. Ever.

Let the fucking guy go already.
 

HUELEN10

Member
Option A) You get killed

Option B) You stay in jail till a point in time where you might be released due to a change in verdict.

HMMMM I WONDER WHICH ONE IS BETTER?
Entirely depends on each person, mental state is an important consideration. A person in a similar instance with anexiety might prefer death and to just end it all due to abuse in prison, at least I know I probably would, so I would stop trying to avoid it, because jail would be worse for me.

Either way, it's a horrible situation and I hope it ends as well as it can for him. This is just horrible in too many ways.
 
I am for the death penalty when there is absolutely, insanely no way ever that it could be proven otherwise that the person that is being deathed is not guilty. I'm talking multiple eyewitnesses PLUS video (I'd even throw in multiple videos from different cameras in the area would be required) PLUS the person would have to have admitted doing it and there couldn't be a defense that the person was coerced into a confession. I'd also even go so far as to make it a requirement that they had to have premeditated it and planned it ahead of time. If any of these things are in question, AT ALL, death penalty off the table. Period. Basically, you'd have someone deathed like, once every 100 years.

Even this I don't get. You seem to mostly understand how problematic the death penalty is, but you still want to leave it available, but with a huge list of conditions. Why not take it that last step further?
 

aerts1js

Member
Let the damn guy go already.... good grief. Is this seriously going to go down? Doesn't the stay just delay it for a couple of weeks?
 

Leunam

Member
I am for the death penalty when there is absolutely, insanely no way ever that it could be proven otherwise that the person that is being deathed is not guilty. I'm talking multiple eyewitnesses PLUS video (I'd even throw in multiple videos from different cameras in the area would be required) PLUS the person would have to have admitted doing it and there couldn't be a defense that the person was coerced into a confession. I'd also even go so far as to make it a requirement that they had to have premeditated it and planned it ahead of time. If any of these things are in question, AT ALL, death penalty off the table. Period. Basically, you'd have someone deathed like, once every 100 years.

All those qualifiers over what should determine use of the death penalty, and you still can't make me believe that state sponsored murder and vengeance disguised as justice and closure should be an option in any culture that claims to be civilized and chides others for not living up to their example.
 
Even this I don't get. You seem to mostly understand how problematic the death penalty is, but you still want to leave it available, but with a huge list of conditions. Why not take it that last step further?

All those qualifiers over what should determine use of the death penalty, and you still can't make me believe that state sponsored murder and vengeance disguised as justice and closure should be an option in any culture that claims to be civilized and chides others for not living up to their example.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I get what he's saying too. You're saying you wouldn't want the death penalty to be on the table for someone like a hitler, a bin laden, a gacy, a kaczynski or a mcveigh? people where rehabilitation is a funny word that means nothing? I may not agree with the death penalty, and it's obvious that there are times when it isn't handed down properly, but I think it's not unreasonable to see this point of view.
 
Entirely depends on each person, mental state is an important consideration. A person in a similar instance with anexiety might prefer death and to just end it all due to abuse in prison, at least I know I probably would, so I would stop trying to avoid it, because jail would be worse for me.

Either way, it's a horrible situation and I hope it ends as well as it can for him. This is just horrible in too many ways.

The state has no right to decide the mental state of a person to a degree where it would consider death to be a humane option for punishment. That's for a person to decide.

I mean, the death penalty is punishment, it's not designed to give ease or less punishment when compared to life in prison, so you're argument is pretty silly considering the extension being filed.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I get what he's saying too. You're saying you wouldn't want the death penalty to be on the table for someone like a hitler, a bin laden, a gacy, a kaczynski or a mcveigh? people where rehabilitation is a funny word that means nothing? I may not agree with the death penalty, and it's obvious that there are times when it isn't handed down properly, but I think it's not unreasonable to see this point of view.

News flash, people who get the death penalty aren't going to be rehabilitated and sent back into society. They are locked away for life. Killing people for the sake of justice or revenge in a system that kills innocents is beyond fucked. If people don't want to change while they are locked away forever, that's on them, but when it comes to a sentence like this the death penalty grants 0 benefit to society at large.
 
I mean, I get what you're saying, but I get what he's saying too. You're saying you wouldn't want the death penalty to be on the table for someone like a hitler, a bin laden, a gacy, a kaczynski or a mcveigh? people where rehabilitation is a funny word that means nothing? I may not agree with the death penalty, and it's obvious that there are times when it isn't handed down properly, but I think it's not unreasonable to see this point of view.

These things don't happen and can't be applied in a vacuum though. If you have the DP as an available option for cases like the Boston Bomber or the Aurora theatre shooter, it's going to be on the table (and open to be misused) in other cases. What determines an "open and shut case" can vary. I would imagine most prosecutors who bring a murder case to trial are pretty confident that they have the right perp.
 
I don't live in the US, i was aware that the public defender system was really bad, but i never imagined it would be THAT bad!

that's sad really...

It's a national embarrassment. That such a strained system is defending against capital cases should really be a red flag to halt the death penalty immediately but alas, people and their bloodthirsty revenge fantasies...
 
I mean, I get what you're saying, but I get what he's saying too. You're saying you wouldn't want the death penalty to be on the table for someone like a hitler, a bin laden, a gacy, a kaczynski or a mcveigh? people where rehabilitation is a funny word that means nothing? I may not agree with the death penalty, and it's obvious that there are times when it isn't handed down properly, but I think it's not unreasonable to see this point of view.

The death penalty has historically been so problematic that the only conclusion I can come to is that it needs to be eliminated in full. Leaving a list of conditions on the table where it's use can be deemed appropriate doesn't fully address the issue. As it currently exists, the death penalty should only be used theoretically for "slam dunk" cases and it's being proven that it's use far exceeds that boundary. It still exists in a legal system fraught with bias where your perimeters can be bent or misused.

All the people you mentioned are despicable and I'd have advocated nothing less than life imprisonment for any of them. But that doesn't really change my opinion that eliminating capital punishment is the only consistent conclusion.
 

JZA

Member
why is this an attack on death penalty instead of an attack of how bad the justice is?


I just dont understand how this guy is still being blamed if they have a confession

Same here, from what I understood above, how did his two separate defense attorneys both fail to introduce a taped confession from the actual killer both times in court? It almost seems intentional instead of negligence.
 
This was the most interesting line to me (given that all the other horrible stuff was expected)

She said her father implicated Glossip out of fear of the death penalty, and still fears recanting his testimony at the risk of losing his life.

Showing how the effects of the death penalty have a longer reach than usually considered. Why yes, of course you'll lie and do whatever it takes to avoid death, and that includes incriminating an innocent. Why wouldn't you? Your life's on the line, after all.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
If only the precious few volunteer groups that actually do the work to try to exonerate people had the resources to spare to actually investigate more deeply into people who were already executed, I wonder just how many people would turn out to have been wrongly executed already? Let's not forget that until a couple days ago, one of the candidates still on the ticket for the GOP primary had himself allowed someone who we now know (and even back then had very reasonable doubts of guilt) was almost certainly innocent to be executed, despite having had every opportunity to grant him clemency.
 

Red Mage

Member
Any death penalty supporters want to chime in

I'm not a death penalty supporter, but that article is rather one sided. I tried searching for the article I'd read prior to the stay, but can't find it amid of the stay of execution news. From what I recall, however, apparently Glossip originally kept giving conflicting stories about why the room where his boss was killed in couldn't be searched and then claimed that although he knew that the body was there, he didn't want to tell the cops because they would think he was involved. Also,Sneed is mentally challenged to some degree.

Like I said, I'm not pro-death penalty, but I'd prefer the guy not walk either.
 
Any death penalty supporters want to chime in
I'm not totally opposed. This story doesn't really reflect on the death penalty as much as it reflects a poor justice system and a wrongful conviction. Locking a guy away for the rest of his life wrongfully is an incredible injustice but most wouldn't argue that jailing should never happen.
 
why is this an attack on death penalty instead of an attack of how bad the justice is?

That's the elephant in the room.

Take away the death penalty threat, and you would just rot in jail forever instead, would there be as much vigilance in defending you're innocence? Possibly, but I'm not convinced.
 
There's no trace of an effort for rehabilitation, in a system that includes the death penalty. By then, the only modus is punitive,
 
I'm not totally opposed. This story doesn't really reflect on the death penalty as much as it reflects a poor justice system and a wrongful conviction. Locking a guy away for the rest of his life wrongfully is an incredible injustice but most wouldn't argue that jailing should never happen.

At least a life sentence gives the innocent a chance to get exonerated.

The justice system will never be concrete enough to decide if people should die. Even the best systems are susceptible to corruption and incompetence.

That's the elephant in the room.

Take away the death penalty threat, and you would just rot in jail forever instead, would there be as much vigilance in defending you're innocence? Possibly, but I'm not convinced.

There is still a chance though. Hundreds have been freed from the Innocence project and other programs like it. Death is permanent.
 
That's the elephant in the room.

Take away the death penalty threat, and you would just rot in jail forever instead, would there be as much vigilance in defending you're innocence? Possibly, but I'm not convinced.

As much? There is barely none.

You... are aware that what you wrote is, essentially, "the death penalty is good because it keeps people on their toes"?
 

Tugatrix

Member
One thing I find striking in american judicial system, the grossly incompetence of many small town detectives and prosecutors, they make appalling mistakes and many times base their cases on weak evidences and deductions that only find resemblance at poor crime fiction.
 

BamfMeat

Member
All those qualifiers over what should determine use of the death penalty, and you still can't make me believe that state sponsored murder and vengeance disguised as justice and closure should be an option in any culture that claims to be civilized and chides others for not living up to their example.

That's OK, I'm not trying to get you to believe anything :)

Even this I don't get. You seem to mostly understand how problematic the death penalty is, but you still want to leave it available, but with a huge list of conditions. Why not take it that last step further?

The death penalty in the way it's enabled in our society is extremely problematic. The way I describe it, it couldn't be bent to the biases of others. It would require literal air-tight proof. I mean, if I have 3 cameras all showing some dude pulling a gun on another dude and shooting him in the head, and he had a motive that he wanted this guy dead because he stole 20 bucks off of him or some other bullshit like that, then I fail to see where the problem lies with getting rid of this person. He's obviously a waste of a human. Why should we keep him around in prison? I'm not going to keep some dude alive for touchy-feely reasons when he couldn't give two shits about letting others live. If he doesn't value other peoples' lives, I don't feel that I need to be "better than him" by valuing his life. He's a waste of space.

I don't see a reason to remove a potential punishment for severe crimes just because it may not get used but once every 100 years. (Or, in a perfect world, never need to be used at all because we're all shiny happy people holding hands).

News flash, people who get the death penalty aren't going to be rehabilitated and sent back into society. They are locked away for life. Killing people for the sake of justice or revenge in a system that kills innocents is beyond fucked. If people don't want to change while they are locked away forever, that's on them, but when it comes to a sentence like this the death penalty grants 0 benefit to society at large.

Right, which is why I say the proof must be indisputable. As it currently stands, the death penalty sucks because, as you say, it's very easy for an innocent person to get caught up in something that has nothing to do with them.

These things don't happen and can't be applied in a vacuum though. If you have the DP as an available option for cases like the Boston Bomber or the Aurora theatre shooter, it's going to be on the table (and open to be misused) in other cases. What determines an "open and shut case" can vary. I would imagine most prosecutors who bring a murder case to trial are pretty confident that they have the right perp.

I completely disagree. Again, if you have literally zero doubt that the person did it and/or proof of guilt, I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

Even for those two listed, was there actual filmed/photographed evidence that they actually committed the crimes? Did we see the Boston Bomber actually planting the bomb? Did we have video of the theatre shooter actually holding his gun and shooting? I would say (in my perfect world) that the death penalty would be off for these people because there's a chance that it could come out later that they were innocent.

I just don't get the "we can't kill those people that did extremely bad things." I don't get it. Why not? Why is their life precious enough that we let them live even though they had no issues taking the live(s) of others?
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
That's the elephant in the room.

Take away the death penalty threat, and you would just rot in jail forever instead, would there be as much vigilance in defending you're innocence? Possibly, but I'm not convinced.

But the article surely demonstrates that the legal mechanisms at present are not suitable to support a system where the absolute punishment is death?
 

Leunam

Member
I mean, I get what you're saying, but I get what he's saying too. You're saying you wouldn't want the death penalty to be on the table for someone like a hitler, a bin laden, a gacy, a kaczynski or a mcveigh? people where rehabilitation is a funny word that means nothing? I may not agree with the death penalty, and it's obvious that there are times when it isn't handed down properly, but I think it's not unreasonable to see this point of view.

You understand that getting rid of the death penalty does not get rid of life sentences right? And that the answer to murder is not more murder? As a society we should be showing the world that our justice system can be above the people we prosecute when handing down punishment.
 

Nephtis

Member
I'm sure prosecutors thought this was a "completely obvious case" though.

The prosecutors can think that, and it's their job to use all the proof available. Unfortunately prosecutors often become overzealous, and that trial was a shitshow. So much questionable stuff, compounded by poor judgement ... :\
 

BamfMeat

Member
And that the answer to murder is not more murder?

Why not?

As a society we should be showing the world that our justice system can be above the people we prosecute when handing down punishment.

Why do we need to be above anyone? Why do we need to be "better" than the murderer? What possible gain do we get by letting these people continue to live? (again, provided they've got locked-tight proof. If there's even a .00000000001% possibility that the person is innocent, that's different. Like the case we're actually discussing in OP.)

What good comes from letting an evil person live?
 
I'm not totally opposed. This story doesn't really reflect on the death penalty as much as it reflects a poor justice system and a wrongful conviction. Locking a guy away for the rest of his life wrongfully is an incredible injustice but most wouldn't argue that jailing should never happen.

A justice system in which innocent people won't get convicted does not and will never exist. So of course this is an argument against the death penality.
 
That's OK, I'm not trying to get you to believe anything :)



The death penalty in the way it's enabled in our society is extremely problematic. The way I describe it, it couldn't be bent to the biases of others. It would require literal air-tight proof. I mean, if I have 3 cameras all showing some dude pulling a gun on another dude and shooting him in the head, and he had a motive that he wanted this guy dead because he stole 20 bucks off of him or some other bullshit like that, then I fail to see where the problem lies with getting rid of this person. He's obviously a waste of a human. Why should we keep him around in prison? I'm not going to keep some dude alive for touchy-feely reasons when he couldn't give two shits about letting others live. If he doesn't value other peoples' lives, I don't feel that I need to be "better than him" by valuing his life. He's a waste of space.

I don't see a reason to remove a potential punishment for severe crimes just because it may not get used but once every 100 years. (Or, in a perfect world, never need to be used at all because we're all shiny happy people holding hands).

The fact that you call opposition to capital punishment "touchy-feely" shows you don't really understand the opposition at all. You're the one wearing your emotions on your sleeve with statements like that.

Why keep him around in prison? Because it's incarceration. It's not a picnic. Life sentences already exist as a sentencing category.

What good comes from letting an evil person live?

If they're already in prison, what good comes from killing them? It doesn't even make economic sense.
 

Ferr986

Member
Call me naive, or idiot, or whatever. But I will never understand how we can punish, say murderers, with essencially killing them. We are just doing the same that what we kill them for.

Glad death penalty isnt a thing here , honestly.
 
Call me naive, or idiot, or whatever. But I will never understand how we can punish, say murderers, with essencially killing them. We are just doing the same that what we kill them for.

Glad death penalty isnt a thing here , honestly.

Because people take the eye for an eye bullshit to heart. There are actually people who would probably be for raping rapists, or cutting off their dicks or something, and think that would make society a better place. Same kind of people that are pro-torture.
 

BamfMeat

Member
The fact that you call opposition to capital punishment "touchy-feely" shows you don't really understand the opposition at all. You're the one wearing your emotions on your sleeve with statements like that.

Why keep him around in prison? Because it's incarceration. It's not a picnic. Life sentences already exist as a sentencing category.

If they're already in prison, what good comes from killing them? It doesn't even make economic sense.

You're right, I don't understand the opposition. I'm open to being corrected. Why is it better to let a convicted (with zero doubt that the person is guilty) live than to kill him?

There are mistakes that can be made in our current system. If we had better checks and balances then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now, with innocent people being killed. If those checks and balances were in place, along with irrefutable evidence, I am still failing to see the problem with killing these people. Why should we let them live? What is the benefit we get as a society from allowing these people to live their lives out in prison?

Also, what? economic sense? We have to pay for them to live in jail for 30, 40, 50 years, vs killing them once and never having to pay for them again. You're economic sense question doesn't make sense. I mean, yes, we have appeals and such and yes those cost money. I'm not talking about those people. If it's possible that the person could be innocent then there's no death penalty option available and there'd be nothing for them to appeal in the first place.
 

Amory

Member
Third stay of execution. Ok, sounds like you're not entirely sure he should be put to death so how about just not killing him?

At what point does it become cruel and unusual to keep subjecting him to impending death and then saying "ehhhh, we'll wait a few weeks"
 
You're right, I don't understand the opposition. I'm open to being corrected. Why is it better to let a convicted (with zero doubt that the person is guilty) live than to kill him?

There are mistakes that can be made in our current system. If we had better checks and balances then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now, with innocent people being killed. If those checks and balances were in place, along with irrefutable evidence, I am still failing to see the problem with killing these people. Why should we let them live? What is the benefit we get as a society from allowing these people to live their lives out in prison?

At the very least, a sense that the justice system might be a little more consistent, a little less open to irreversible fallibility.

Conversely, as a society, what benefit do we really obtain from killing said individuals? At the end of the day, how are we better off if a murderer is dead or in prison? If there's a benefit to capital punishment, why is it not implemented worldwide?

Also, what? economic sense? We have to pay for them to live in jail for 30, 40, 50 years, vs killing them once and never having to pay for them again. You're economic sense question doesn't make sense. I mean, yes, we have appeals and such and yes those cost money. I'm not talking about those people. If it's possible that the person could be innocent then there's no death penalty option available and there'd be nothing for them to appeal in the first place.

Yes, I'm thinking of the appeals process, I'm thinking of every factor leading up to an execution, and I'm thinking of it collectively. The prison system itself is costly. It'd be far more beneficial to stop incarcerating low-level drug offenders than to execute the worst offenders.
 
Third stay of execution. Ok, sounds like you're not entirely sure he should be put to death so how about just not killing him?

At what point does it become cruel and unusual to keep subjecting him to impending death and then saying "ehhhh, we'll wait a few weeks"

But if we don't kill him how will he learn that murder is bad?
 
Why do we need to be above anyone? Why do we need to be "better" than the murderer? What possible gain do we get by letting these people continue to live? (again, provided they've got locked-tight proof. If there's even a .00000000001% possibility that the person is innocent, that's different. Like the case we're actually discussing in OP.)

What good comes from letting an evil person live?

The problem is that around 1 in 20 cases still end up with an innocent being put to death.
 

Ferr986

Member
You're right, I don't understand the opposition. I'm open to being corrected. Why is it better to let a convicted (with zero doubt that the person is guilty) live than to kill him?

There are mistakes that can be made in our current system. If we had better checks and balances then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now, with innocent people being killed. If those checks and balances were in place, along with irrefutable evidence, I am still failing to see the problem with killing these people. Why should we let them live? What is the benefit we get as a society from allowing these people to live their lives out in prison?

You don't really see anything wrong about punishing killers by being their killers? How we can punish them for something that we are doing too, whatever the reasons of their crime? Shouldnt we look for a better way of punishment (and if possible, reinsertion) without avoiding commiting a crime for the sake of our justice?

As I said, I may sound too naive, but it's not like Europe is doing bad without a death penalty.
 

BamfMeat

Member
At the very least, a sense that the justice system might be a little more consistent, a little less open to irreversible fallibility.

Conversely, as a society, what benefit do we really obtain from killing said individuals? At the end of the day, how are we better off if a murderer is dead or in prison? If there's a benefit to capital punishment, why is it not
implemented worldwide?

Yes, I'm thinking of the appeals process, I'm thinking of every factor leading up to an execution, and I'm thinking of it collectively. The prison system itself is costly. It'd be far more beneficial to stop incarcerating low-level drug offenders than to execute the worst offenders.

The prison system is also not infallible. Said individual could get out and murder again. Said individual could kill in prison - including those innocent people we're trying to save. Or guards.

If you put him in solitary, that could also be considered cruel. So not only do you have a danger to innocent people if you were to let him out, you have a danger to people inside as well.

Do you keep putting someone who continues to kill over and over again back in prison each time, potentially killing more? When do you say enough is enough?

I also agree with what you said and how costly it is. With indisputable evidence, you couldn't appeal that. And I too agree that if we'd stop incarcerating anyone who could be let go with a slap on the wrist, we'd be far better off.

The problem is that around 1 in 20 cases still end up with an innocent being put to death.

That's why I say the way it is now, it doesn't work. We would need serious reform from the top down.

You don't really see anything wrong about punishing killers by being their killers? How we can punish them for something that we are doing too, whatever the reasons of their crime? Shouldnt we look for a better way of punishment (and if possible, reinsertion) without avoiding commiting a crime for the sake of our justice?

As I said, I may sound too naive, but it's not like Europe is doing bad without a death penalty.

No I really don't. The only reasons I can seem to get out of anyone is "we have to be better than them." No we don't. I don't see a reason to be "better" than someone who takes other peoples' lives. The rationale doesn't shake out to me. The person(s) are a danger to society, so we should just hold them in a cell, rotting away, instead of just getting rid of them? Why is someone's life so precious that it's ok for them to kill but not us?
 
The prison system is also not infallible. Said individual could get out and murder again. Said individual could kill in prison - including those innocent people we're trying to save. Or guards.

If you put him in solitary, that could also be considered cruel. So not only do you have a danger to innocent people if you were to let him out, you have a danger to people inside as well.

Do you keep putting someone who continues to kill over and over again back in prison each time, potentially killing more? When do you say enough is enough?

You're right. And I'd still argue for increased prison security and prison oversight over arguing for capital punishment as a solution for escapees. The ideal should be that life in prison means life in prison.
 

Amory

Member
The prison system is also not infallible. Said individual could get out and murder again. Said individual could kill in prison - including those innocent people we're trying to save. Or guards.

If you put him in solitary, that could also be considered cruel. So not only do you have a danger to innocent people if you were to let him out, you have a danger to people inside as well.

Do you keep putting someone who continues to kill over and over again back in prison each time, potentially killing more? When do you say enough is enough?

I think in a modern, first world country you start with "Well, we're not going to execute people because that's barbaric and fucked up" and then go from there.
 
Can't trust a system with the life/death of a person when it probably botches paperwork on a daily basis.

If we aren't rehabilitating, what's the point of having a sentence other than life? Punishment alone only harvests malice.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
That is basically the only way a death penalty supporter can justify their stance. It does not deter crime, and a large number of people on death row are innocent. It's also significantly more expensive, sometimes bankrupting small towns. So in order to satisfy their bloodlust for something that does not even function in society in any way, they must be willing to kill innocent people and cause society extreme financial harm as well all for a result which doesn't even scare criminals into not committing crimes.

There is no actual way around this argument: they either are OK with those downsides in order to see someone they dislike die, or they are not and understand why the death penalty should never be a thing.

No, it is not the only way a death penalty supporter can justify supporting the death penalty. You say the death penalty doesn't deter crime, but some studies have found otherwise, and on balance the studies appear to be inconclusive (notwithstanding Politifact's partisan-motivated "Mostly False" rating). A person can rationally believe that the death penalty might deter crime, and the evidence, on balance, would not refute that belief.

In addition, some death penalty supporters don't rely on the deterrent effect at all in making their case. Professor Robert Blecker of New York Law School, for instance, makes his case on the basis of retribution--the death penalty is a punishment fit to some crimes.

The other issues you raise either are not necessary characteristics of the death penalty or are the subject of reasonable disagreement. Blecker suggests a higher standard of proof (higher than "beyond a reasonable doubt") for imposing the death penalty, for instance, which would reduce the number of innocents sentenced to death. The costs of prosecuting a death penalty case don't need to fall on small towns that can't afford it--the state can bear those costs instead, for example. And some may reasonably weigh the benefits of imposing the death penalty as greater than the detriment of having to bear high monetary costs; that is not a question subject to empirical determination.

You can reject all of the above arguments, of course, but it's dishonest for you to assume that everyone must agree with your misreading of the evidence and weighting of the moral issues involved.

*****

On topic, this has been an interesting case to watch develop. Things started getting interesting in March 2014, when the Supreme Court of Oklahoma asked the Court of Criminal Appeals of Oklahoma to issue a stay of execution for Clayton Lockett. (Oklahoma has two high courts. The Supreme Court considers appeals in civil lawsuits, while the Court of Criminal Appeals considers criminal appeals. If memory serves, Texas is the only other state that has this bifurcated system.) The CCA refused, finding that it had no jurisdiction to issue a stay. After a few back-and-forth orders from the Supreme Court and CCA, the Supreme Court eventually issued a stay itself, even though it had always rejected having such a power in the past. Governor Fallin refused to recognize the Supreme Court's order, but issued an executive order delaying the execution anyway. In the end, the OK Supreme Court rejected Lockett's lawsuit, and he was executed on April 29, 2014. But:

The execution of convicted killer Clayton Lockett was botched tonight at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary before he died of a massive heart attack. The event prompted officials to postpone a second execution scheduled for two hours later.
Lockett was given execution drugs and reacted violently, kicking and grimacing while lifting his head off the gurney to which he was strapped. He was pronounced dead at 7:06 p.m. -- 43 minutes after the process began

After the botched execution, Charles Warner--who was scheduled to be executed the same day as Lockett, but whose execution was stayed while Oklahoma investigated what went wrong--filed a federal lawsuit along with 20 other Oklahoma death row inmates, alleging that the drugs used by Oklahoma violated the 8th Amendment prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. Four of those inmates--including Warner and Glossip, who is the subject of this thread--moved for a preliminary injunction. That went all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States, which initially rejected (PDF) their application for stay of execution. Warner was executed on January 16 of this year. CNN reported that, during the execution, he was heard to say, "My body is on fire." Otherwise, he "did not appear to be suffering and did not show any obvious signs of distress."

Following Warner's execution, the U.S. Supreme Court voted to grant certiorari in the case, with Glossip as the named petitioner. At that point, the Court had still not granted the application for a stay of execution. As the New York Times explained, "There are nine justices on the Supreme Court. It takes four votes to hear a case, but it takes five to stay an execution. That can leave a lethal gap." It turns out it's customary in cases where cert. has been granted in death penalty cases by the vote of four justices for a fifth justice to vote with the other four to stay the execution. That happened in Glossip the week following the Supreme Court's grant of cert. (In the meantime, even the state of Oklahoma asked the Court to delay the executions, but only with respect to the existing three-drug protocol that were being challenged (the one that had resulted in Lockett's botched execution).)

Glossip lost in the Supreme Court (PDF) in late June, which brings us basically up to date with the news in the OP. The CCA's stay is just the latest in a long train of twists and turns over the last two years.
 

BamfMeat

Member
I think in a modern, first world country you start with "Well, we're not going to execute people because that's barbaric and fucked up" and then go from there.

Why is it barbaric and fucked up? Why is murdering someone who murders wrong? What moral imperative do we have to allow people who have no chance at rehabilitation to live? Why is it more cruel to kill someone who's killed before and might kill again than it is to leave them locked up in a cell? What makes their life worth enough to continue to keep them alive? What benefit do we get as a society by not killing someone who kills for fun? What about the victims of these people - if this person does escape despite being locked up, why is this murderer's life more important than those that they might kill? How many people does it take for a person to kill before we say they no longer have the right to live? What happens if someone continues to kill in prison? If they have life in prison and they kill, what further punishment can and/or should they receive? We've already given them life in prison without possibility of parole - do we just give them a slap on the wrist and say "bad boy. Don't do it again."?

When do we value the life of the innocent person over the life of a person who murders? What makes the life of the murderer so valuable that we wouldn't dare think about taking his? Saying "it's barbaric" isn't an answer. There's humane ways of killing someone (IE lethal injection with the right combination of drugs). What makes someone who murders' life valuable enough to continue to allow them to live? Who determines that their life is valuable enough to continue? Why is their life that valuable when they obviously don't value others' lives?
 

Ayt

Banned
Why do we need to be above anyone? Why do we need to be "better" than the murderer? What possible gain do we get by letting these people continue to live? (again, provided they've got locked-tight proof. If there's even a .00000000001% possibility that the person is innocent, that's different. Like the case we're actually discussing in OP.)

What good comes from letting an evil person live?

What if I'm a dirty cop and I frame you for brutal, cold blooded murder?

Your assumptions of "locked-tight proof" are idiotic. You always have to factor in corruption.
 

BamfMeat

Member
What if I'm a dirty cop and I frame you for brutal, cold blooded murder?

Your assumptions of "locked-tight proof" are idiotic. You always have to factor in corruption.

How can you frame me if there are 3-4 videos of me from different angles pulling the trigger on the gun and blowing someones' brains out? And I say "yes, I killed that man. He did X to me."

There is such a thing as "lock-tight proof", despite your protestations of idiocy.
 
How can you frame me if there are 3-4 videos of me from different angles pulling the trigger on the gun and blowing someones' brains out? And I say "yes, I killed that man. He did X to me."

There is such a thing as "lock-tight proof", despite your protestations of idiocy.

Is the murderer also holding up a copy of today's newspaper and at least 2 forms of identification? In that case okay, I concede, in this fantasy world where murders play out this way, you can have the death penalty.
 
How can you frame me if there are 3-4 videos of me from different angles pulling the trigger on the gun and blowing someones' brains out? And I say "yes, I killed that man. He did X to me."

There is such a thing as "lock-tight proof", despite your protestations of idiocy.

Or, and I know this is crazy, we simply remove a system that has been abolished in nearly all western countries instead of putting gum over fist size holes in an absolutely archaic system?
 
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