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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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CrunchyB

Member
Kettch said:
Since becoming Lord Commander Jon has shown such remarkable sense and restraint when it comes to baiting, yet this one letter completely sets him off. I really don't get it.

In the past Jon had Aemon, Sam and even Pyp and Edd to counsel him. The threat of Alliser Thorne and his influence also made him tip-toe around controversial issues. But they are all gone now.

Instead we have Melisandre, Selyse, Bowen Marsh and Otto Yarwick, who only frustrate him.

It was going to go wrong, sooner or later. Jon is still a kid.
 

scosher

Member
Well, I for one am glad Jon is breaking his vows. Assuming he's not dead (he's not), now he's free to proclaim his title as King of the North when Greatjon/Galbart Glover come North, fuck Val, and generally stop being such a mopey turd about his duty.
 

Veelk

Banned
Kettch said:
Jon himself thinks that it's breaking his vows, which is why I can't understand why this is apparently more important than his father being executed, than his brother being murdered, than his sisters being held captive, than staying true to the woman he loves, than being able to unite the North by taking Winterfell as Stannis offered or than his sister being wed to a lunatic.

He also thought he was breaking his vows by having sex with Ygritte when he did this in service to the Watch. As they said back in AGOT, a honorable man will only break his honor for those around him. He picks the most honorable course, even if it's dishonorable to him personally, because that's what an honorable person does.

But if your that stuck on this mindset, consider that he WAS going to betray the watch because of Ed's death until his brothers brought him back. During Robb's death, he was on the other side of the wall, and by the time he got back, what could he possibly do? Even if he were to abandon the wall, there is no longer even a force to rally himself to. What was he going to do, take Red Keep all by himself? And taking Stannis' offer could be nothing more than self serving, which is not what he does in the case of Bolton's threat. For those reasons, he doesn't do anything then, but does something now.

Kettch said:
1) That's what anyone in the Watch would think after hearing him read that letter. Regardless, he basically tells them that he's breaking his vows and abandoning the Watch. "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton...I mean to make him answer for those words, but I will not ask my brothers to foreswear their vows."

2) It doesn't matter if it's the best decision when he knows how prejudiced his brothers are. There was absolutely no way they were going to stand being commanded by a man who made a name for himself by killing their fellows.

1. Yes, Jon's one flaw is that he refuses to connect with any of his men. "A lord may care for his subjects, but he can never be friends with them." He plays the part of the commander well, but his refusal to share his innermost thoughts with the watch, about how much he respects them even if he doesn't always agree with them, is what kills him. We know he's doing it to save the watch. They think he's just abandoning it and running off with wildlings.

2. A few things went into this. Jon thinks that, as lord, his subjects will never betray him. He gave that speech on the wall regarding the wildlings and when he was never given a response to why wildlings don't deserve protection and respect, he thought he won a deal of them over. And he'd hope they'd see the pragmatic aspects of using Tormund.

Kettch said:
If he wants a suicide mission, there are better ones to go on. To Hardhome for instance, would be easy to find a way to get himself killed there and he would be dying for the Watch instead of as a traitor.

Since becoming Lord Commander Jon has shown such remarkable sense and restraint when it comes to baiting, yet this one letter completely sets him off. I really don't get it.

Wat. It's not a suicide mission. That's why he's asking for troops to help him take out bolton instead of simply going alone. And going to Hardhome and dying there will just spur Bolton to attack the wall anyway as revenge. He needs to face bolton or the wall suffers.

I don't think you fully understood what went on in Jon's storyline.
 

Famassu

Member
Kettch said:
Jon himself thinks that it's breaking his vows
As I've said before and Maester Aemon said in (I think) the first book when he had "the talk" with Jon, a person might resist the temptation to desert for the first time, the second time, the third and even the fourth, but then maybe the fifth time will cause him to desert. He has resisted the temptation a lot, yes, but it's not that far-fetched to have him to do the decision he did after reading what he had read (Stannis dead, one person Jon put a lot of faith behind of, "Arya" on the run and possibly in danger, Night's Watch in danger if Jon just stays there). It essentially shows that Jon isn't the kind of "perfect" protagonist fantasy stories have and some people have been complaining him of being.

1) That's what anyone in the Watch would think after hearing him read that letter. Regardless, he basically tells them that he's breaking his vows and abandoning the Watch. "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton...I mean to make him answer for those words, but I will not ask my brothers to foreswear their vows."
Again, I think he knew very well what kind of hopeless mission it would be and thought that if or, rather, when he'd die during it, that would be his punishment for "deserting" the wall. A punishment he'd be glad to take if he managed to save Arya.

2) It doesn't matter if it's the best decision when he knows how prejudiced his brothers are. There was absolutely no way they were going to stand being commanded by a man who made a name for himself by killing their fellows.
Wasn't a lot of the force going to Hardhome going to be wildlings anyway? It was mostly going to be wildlings saving wildlings, but with some support from Night's Watch. It could've caused trouble if a few NW brothers tried to give some stupid orders in a harsh situation and with wildlings disobeying.


If he wants a suicide mission, there are better ones to go on. To Hardhome for instance, would be easy to find a way to get himself killed there and he would be dying for the Watch instead of as a traitor.
Hardhome wasn't as much of a suicide mission as going against Winterfell with a small band brothers from Night's Watch. Also, Jon had been obsessing about Arya throughout the book (especially after Melisandre gave that "false" prophecy). For all Jon knows, Arya is the only living Stark and maybe he thought it'd be more important for him to at least try save her than for him to stay as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (or alive).

Also, if Jon had gone beyond the Wall, that would still have maintained Ramsay as a thread to the Night's Watch. By going against Ramsay himself (and whoever might've joined him), that could've saved the Night's Watch.


, which is why I can't understand why this is apparently more important than his father being executed, than his brother being murdered, than his sisters being held captive, than staying true to the woman he loves, than being able to unite the North by taking Winterfell as Stannis offered or than his sister being wed to a lunatic.
Since becoming Lord Commander Jon has shown such remarkable sense and restraint when it comes to baiting, yet this one letter completely sets him off. I really don't get it.
Again, a man can resist temptation until there comes that final thing that pushes him over the edge. Yes, his dad died (what could he do so far from him?) and his brother went to war (he DID desert the Night's Watch then, if you don't remember, Mormont just decided not to punish him for it because his friends brought him back quickly enough). Yes he had a crush on Ygritte, but at that time he just simply got a reason to return to the Night's Watch after he saw the wildlings kill a person mercilessly. He didn't want that to happen to his brothers, no matter if he had had sex with one of the wildling womans. Had they not done that, maybe Jon would've been too far along to do anything about it and really become a real deserter (or done something too late, dying in the process). His sister was captive, but as far as he knew, she was in no immediate danger and was being treated decently. He probably didn't think, as a bastard, that Winterfell was for his to take. Also, he had just been voted as the Lord Commander. His friends (or mostly Sam) had gone through a huge trouble to make Jon the LC, at that point he probably thought he had the obligation to stay there instead of being all "lulz, thnx but no thnx, I'll go rule Winterfell instead" (besides, he knew Winterfell was in ruins). As to the last point, did he know how crazy Ramsay is? Maybe he just thought it'd at least be good if SOME Stark is in Winterfell, a marriage should keep Arya at least somewhat safe.
 

iammeiam

Member
zeroshiki said:
Dany's last chapter was not in the least exciting because:

1.) She wasn't going to die;
2.) She was most definitely getting that dragon.

What was the thrill in that? There was zero sense of doubt and/or excitement.

I think the general mess that is the Dany chapters in this book makes a lot more sense in light of Martin's interview with the people at westeros.org. He mentions that one of the first written chapters in the book is a ten-year-old chapter in Dany's POV that was originally going to be her first chapter in the post-time-skip book. As things evolved, it got pushed back to second, then third, then on and on.

I can't find anything explicitly stating it, but it seems very likely this is the fighting pits/fleeing on Drogon chapter. Which means the stuff before that seems like (glorious, complex, world-building, whatever) filler largely because it is filling in stuff for her to do while Martin sets up the rest of the Meereenese knot, and that her last chapter lacks finality because it's actually an early chapter from the next book.
 

Aasir Osu

Neo Member
I believe I've seen it mentioned here (by yacobod, I think) and elsewhere that the Dany chapters featured bad Middle Eastern Stereotypes/Cliches. I've certainly seen similar depictions in other media. So, are we saying it's cliche, because we've seen it before? Or because the culture/character depictions themselves are somehow unrealistic or offensive? I'm completely unfamiliar with historical Middle Eastern fiction or non-fiction (save for the Arabian Nights - does that count?), but I'm curious from whence these depictions derive - is it the filtered down interpretations from Hollywood/Racist Europeans? Or does it have a strong basis in how the Middle East has portrayed it's own past behaviors?

The reason why I liked the Dany chapters is because in general I liked these depictions of people trying to rule, especially in a situation where the people being ruled, from almost all cast of society, seem to favor what we may think of as the old, morally dubious status quo. There didn't seem like any easy outs, and in contrast to some of the decisions she made in earlier books, in which she always "won", I saw her as ultimately losing. A main character failing is just as impressive to me as a main character dying.

And on that issue of dying, if we assume that George's intention was for Jon to 'die' all along, then I wouldn't consider what he did to Jon to be going for shock value just for the sake of shock value. It's not entirely the author's fault that people have chosen to elevate his alleged ruthlessness as a virtue. On the other hand, Jon's death and Dany's travails would have certainly had more impact, had this book been released years earlier. If you read all 5 books for the first time now from start to finish, the feeling of lack of progression might be lessened, I think. It's almost as if George is writing his story with no consideration for how a gap of years would impact people's appreciation of the story as a whole. It may be that the editing of the books should factor that in.

But yeah, I loved this book overall, and my feelings generally mirror what Amirox said above or in another thread.
 
Been thinking about the POV list for Winds of Winter, here's what I've come up with so far:

Female

Melisandre (Wall/North)
Dany (Who the hell knows)
Cersei (King's Landing)
Sansa (The Vale)
Arianne (Dorne)
Arya (Bravos)

Male

Bran (North of the Wall)
Samwell (Oldtown)
Tyrion (Mereen)
Aeron (Iron Islands/North)
Theon (Iron Islands/North)
Jaime (Riverlands)
Connington (Reach/Storm's End)
Davos (North)

Possible New POV's

Mance (North)
Littlefinger (The Vale)
Margery (King's Landing)
Nym Sand (King's Landing)

Axed POV's

Barristan
Victarion
Asha or Theon
Brienne

Unknown

Jon

I think I remember Martin saying that there would be 1 new POV for the rest of the series (correct me if I'm wrong), so with the list I have here and the 1 new POV that would total to 15 POVs. If you include the prologue and epilogue it would total to 17. I have a strong feeling that the new POV will be located in King's Landing because there is too much going on there for just Cersei to cover. What do you all think?
 
I can't take any more fucking Damphair chapters, and I know there are more coming. If someone has to go, why not him George?!?! There are as many Greyjoy POV characters as there are Stark POVs now, makes me sad (Maybe more Greyjoys depending on Jon).
 
He did say there would be no more new POVs, but that will most likely change. I had thought Nymeria would definitely be a POV in TWOW, but after the epilogue it might not be needed. Cersei will be back in power.

Also on Bran...he had some amazing chapters but I was kind of disappointed by the fantastical elements introduced in them. I really hope he doesn't stay there, with Bloodraven.
 

yacobod

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
Also on Bran...he had some amazing chapters but I was kind of disappointed by the fantastical elements introduced in them. I really hope he doesn't stay there, with Bloodraven.

Well it is a fantasy series that is getting progressively more fantastical:

-You have Dany again being immune (besides her hair) to fire in ADWD. I remember once reading something from GURM where he said that Dany surviving the funeral pyre in GOT was a special one time occurrence.
-The walking dead featuring: Coldhands, Zombie Berric, Zombie Cat, Gregor-stein aka Robert Strong, greyscale zombies, and the soon to be resurrected Jon Snow aka Azor Ahai Reborn.
-All the red priest shenanigans in ADWD, from glamours, pyrotechnics, shadow babies, seeing visions of the future, kiss of life, etc.
-fucking dragons.

and a host of other things...
 
PhoenixDark said:
He did say there would be no more new POVs, but that will most likely change. I had thought Nymeria would definitely be a POV in TWOW, but after the epilogue it might not be needed. Cersei will be back in power.

Also on Bran...he had some amazing chapters but I was kind of disappointed by the fantastical elements introduced in them. I really hope he doesn't stay there, with Bloodraven.
The fantastical elements of the series have been leaking in since the end of AGOT. At this point, you kind of have to go with it.
 

Eteric Rice

Member
There are a lot of fantastical elements now, yeah. But it's not quite as direct as most fantasy stuff is.

Most of it seems to be coming from the Gods, in their own game of thrones. What are the Gods playing for? Who knows. But Bran seems to be a player for the old Gods, Jon may be the major player for Rh'llor (sp?), Victarion or Baelon for the drowned, etc.

Maybe Arya is a player for the God of many faces.

All pieces in an even bigger game of thrones. One that we don't directly see.
 
PhoenixDark said:
Also on Bran...he had some amazing chapters but I was kind of disappointed by the fantastical elements introduced in them. I really hope he doesn't stay there, with Bloodraven.

I don't think it's possible for him to leave until the Others are taken care of. I assume he's going to have an important part to play, anyway (seeing into the past and present and relaying information through the trees).
 

scosher

Member
PhoenixDark said:
He did say there would be no more new POVs, but that will most likely change. I had thought Nymeria would definitely be a POV in TWOW, but after the epilogue it might not be needed. Cersei will be back in power.

Also on Bran...he had some amazing chapters but I was kind of disappointed by the fantastical elements introduced in them. I really hope he doesn't stay there, with Bloodraven.

I don't like the "children of the forest" in the series. Pretty much keebler elves. I don't mind him being able to warg into/see through the trees though. It kind of puts a finality to his journey (his travelling chapters in previous books were on a Brienne-level of boring), and allows his future chapters to be limitless in scope. We're likely going to get a lot more backstory and past events through Bran's eyes (ie. Rhaegar/Lyanna), and I'd welcome that.
 

Azrael

Member
I'm okay with the series incorporating more supernatural elements as it progresses, but what I hate is that characters keep coming back from the dead. I love the Brotherhood Without Banners, but bringing back Beric Dondarion and the precedent that set is one of the worst things that has happened to the series. Now we have half a dozen characters brought back to life, Benjen and Jon will probably be back, and even hints that Khal Drogo is going to be resurrected which would be an appalling plot twist if it happens. Where did the GRRM that dissed Tolkien for bringing back Gandalf go?
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
yacobod said:
GURM says lots of things.
Words are wind!

There will definitely be more PoVs. I don't think we'll get any new main ones, but we'll definitely have more one shots/book only ones I figure.
 
So do you guys think Dorne will spurn Dany now, and declare for Fake Aegon? I can't imagine Doran being happy about the way Quentyn was treated by Dany, and yet nor can I imagine he'll agree with what Quentyn did. But that assumes Doran hears the story accurately. He could be misled.

Part of the reason Dany took Quentyn for granted was because she expected Dorne to support her regardless. I can't really say that's a bad assumption. Griff expects Aegon will marry Dany, and I can't really imagine Doran standing in the way now. Well...unless he tries to offer up Arianne which makes sense...hmm.

Listening to Varys' little speech about creating the perfect prince/king, I couldn't help but laugh given how Martin tends to deal with cleverly laid plans. I really think Aegon will get greyscale.
 

yacobod

Banned
shintoki said:
There will definitely be more PoVs. I don't think we'll get any new main ones, but we'll definitely have more one shots/book only ones I figure.

ya i can see that continuing for the prologues and epilogues.

Or more likely Aegon just dies leading the charge on Storm's End.
 

q_q

Member
LegendofJoe said:
I think I remember Martin saying that there would be 1 new POV for the rest of the series (correct me if I'm wrong), so with the list I have here and the 1 new POV that would total to 15 POVs. If you include the prologue and epilogue it would total to 17. I have a strong feeling that the new POV will be located in King's Landing because there is too much going on there for just Cersei to cover. What do you all think?
I'd hate to see a Littlefinger POV. He's like the Joker, if you tell us what he's thinking it removes a lot of his mystique.
 

Jarmel

Banned
yacobod said:
ya i can see that continuing for the prologues and epilogues.

Or more likely Aegon just dies leading the charge on Storm's End.

Naw, there must be some reason for Connington and the greyscale.


Also on a random note would like to mention how awesome the final scene is with all the little kids coming out with the daggers. Nothing like knowing you're fucked and about to die a horrible death.
 
Azrael said:
I'm okay with the series incorporating more supernatural elements as it progresses, but what I hate is that characters keep coming back from the dead. I love the Brotherhood Without Banners, but bringing back Beric Dondarion and the precedent that set is one of the worst things that has happened to the series. Now we have half a dozen characters brought back to life, Benjen and Jon will probably be back, and even hints that Khal Drogo is going to be resurrected which would be an appalling plot twist if it happens. Where did the GRRM that dissed Tolkien for bringing back Gandalf go?

Khal Drogo was burned, he's not coming back. We might see Benjen as a wight at some point but he's not going to come back in any form that resembles what he is. We don't know that Jon died from his attack (although if he did he'll likely get the red priest treatment).

So who has been brought back:
Beric - lost a bit of himself each time he died but was in decent shape
Cat - in a horrific form that was all vengeance
Gregor - as some sort of zombie

We can guess that some of the red priests have died before but can't be sure.


Unless you mean people that were assumed to be dead but never actually died.
 

yacobod

Banned
Well I think it's pretty stupid of Connington to just hide his greyscale. At first sign of it, he should have cut off his finger or his hand to at least give him a fighting chance of survival. I know we are given his internal motivation/reasoning behind not doing it in the book, but it's still stupid.

Maybe Val tries to kill Princess Shireen at the wall. She was very much against it as well.
 

Puddles

Banned
Azrael said:
I'm okay with the series incorporating more supernatural elements as it progresses, but what I hate is that characters keep coming back from the dead. I love the Brotherhood Without Banners, but bringing back Beric Dondarion and the precedent that set is one of the worst things that has happened to the series. Now we have half a dozen characters brought back to life, Benjen and Jon will probably be back, and even hints that Khal Drogo is going to be resurrected which would be an appalling plot twist if it happens. Where did the GRRM that dissed Tolkien for bringing back Gandalf go?

I always got the impression that people could only be resurrected within a few days of their actual death. Someone like Drogo, who is only a skeleton at this point, probably couldn't be resurrected.
 
PhoenixDark said:
So do you guys think Dorne will spurn Dany now, and declare for Fake Aegon? I can't imagine Doran being happy about the way Quentyn was treated by Dany, and yet nor can I imagine he'll agree with what Quentyn did. But that assumes Doran hears the story accurately. He could be misled.

I think Dorne will declare for Aegon. That doesn't mean they're spurning Dany. I just don't see her landing in Westeros until the Others have invaded to the point where no one is thinking about the throne anymore.
 

Jarmel

Banned
cubicle47b said:
I think Dorne will declare for Aegon. That doesn't mean they're spurning Dany. I just don't see her landing in Westeros until the Others have invaded to the point where no one is thinking about the throne anymore.

I think the opposite. Aegon will expect Dorne to declare for him and they won't because they think Quentyn is still alive and non-BQQ and wooing Dany.
 

Dresden

Member
I think Doran will start waiting around while doing nothing and eventually one of the Sand Snakes are going to assassinate him.
 
Azrael said:
I'm okay with the series incorporating more supernatural elements as it progresses, but what I hate is that characters keep coming back from the dead. I love the Brotherhood Without Banners, but bringing back Beric Dondarion and the precedent that set is one of the worst things that has happened to the series. Now we have half a dozen characters brought back to life, Benjen and Jon will probably be back, and even hints that Khal Drogo is going to be resurrected which would be an appalling plot twist if it happens. Where did the GRRM that dissed Tolkien for bringing back Gandalf go?
I'm okay with resurrections as long as it feels earned (by the narrative, not necessarily by the characters themselves. E.g. Catelyn). Otherwise death just becomes meaningless like it has on Joss Whedon shows, where characters get resurrected willy nilly all the time but the only one that actually ever felt earned narratively was that of Buffy in season 6 (because she actually got pulled out of heaven, slipped into a terrible depression and despised her friends for bringing her back). Lost and BSG also totally dropped the ball on this.
 

yacobod

Banned
ZephyrFate said:
Must have been that Game of Thrones show that influenced it.

<3 :)

Did I say that the book was bad or anything? Like I've said, I enjoyed it overall. Did I have some problems with it? Yes, some of the problems were carry-overs from AFFC, which I guess isn't that big of a surprise since it's the 2nd half of that book. The main issue was the uneven pace of the novel. Everything in the North was much better than what we got in Slaver's Bay.

People are allowed to have dissenting opinions. There are a lot of people in the thread that expressed the same criticisms that I've posted as well. It seems like you react very negatively to anything but effusive praise for the book.
 

q_q

Member
Granger Danger said:
I'm okay with resurrections as long as it feels earned (by the narrative, not necessarily by the characters themselves. E.g. Catelyn). Otherwise death just becomes meaningless like it has on Joss Whedon shows, where characters get resurrected willy nilly all the time but the only one that actually ever felt earned narratively was that of Buffy in season 6 (because she actually got pulled out of heaven, slipped into a terrible depression and despised her friends for bringing her back). Lost and BSG also totally dropped the ball on this.
Who came back from the dead in Lost?
 

bluemax

Banned
LegendofJoe said:
I'm optimitic regarding how long it will take Martin to finish Winds of Winter. I say 2.5 years, releasing 3 years from now during the summer of 2014. Also, if I were Martin I'd buy a log cabin somewhere cold and picturesque such as Vermont, Maine, Nova Scotia, BC, etc. to live in while I was writing the book. I'd do it this fall and get it ready to move in as soon as it gets cold.

I predict he spends the next 2 years editing Wildcards and bitching about football on his "Not a Blog."
 
yacobod said:
Did I say that the book was bad or anything? Like I've said, I enjoyed it overall. Did I have some problems with it? Yes, some of the problems were carry-overs from AFFC, which I guess isn't that big of a surprise since it's the 2nd half of that book. The main issue was the uneven pace of the novel. Everything in the North was much better than what we got in Slaver's Bay.

People are allowed to have dissenting opinions. There are a lot of people in the thread that expressed the same criticisms that I've posted as well. It seems like you react very negatively to anything but effusive praise for the book.
I'm more playfully teasing your idea that the show somehow influenced the reviews of a book much later in the saga. I'm pretty much done defending ADWD because it's getting about as boring as defending AFFC.

All I really care about now is wanting to know what the fuck Littlefinger is up to
 

Ænima

Member
yacobod said:
Scheming to get into Sansa umm I mean Alayne's pants.
0002bqcg
 
Ha, and all while this is popping off, Littlefinger has a well fed, healthy army ready to pounce.

I wonder how many chapters will be spent with Dany traveling around with the khalasar doing nothing. I'm getting the feeling as well that she won't reach Westeros until the Others have breached the Wall and invaded.
 

scosher

Member
cubicle47b said:
Khal Drogo was burned, he's not coming back. We might see Benjen as a wight at some point but he's not going to come back in any form that resembles what he is. We don't know that Jon died from his attack (although if he did he'll likely get the red priest treatment).

So who has been brought back:
Beric - lost a bit of himself each time he died but was in decent shape
Cat - in a horrific form that was all vengeance
Gregor - as some sort of zombie

We can guess that some of the red priests have died before but can't be sure.


Unless you mean people that were assumed to be dead but never actually died.

I think he's including all the fake-outs: Bran/Rickon, Theon, Brienne, etc. Add that to the people who've been resurrected, and for a series originally known for not being afraid to kill its characters, death has surely lost its impact. When Jon "died," I rolled my eyes.
 

yacobod

Banned
If Rickon ever gets rescued & revealed by Davos, he will have the best claim to Winterfell (provided Bran does in fact stay with Bloodraven and the Children of the Forrest). I wonder how that will effect LF's plans.
 
yacobod said:
If Rickon ever gets rescued & revealed by Davos, he will have the best claim to Winterfell (provided Bran does in fact stay with Bloodraven and the Children of the Forrest). I wonder how that will effect LF's plans.

It depends on who Robb named his heir. If he naturalizes Jon and names him a Stark and heir, Jon will have the best claim. Personally I don't think he named Jon though.

I wonder if LF will be able to convince Sansa to oppose her brother's claim, assuming Rickon leaves Skagos alive and raises the banners
 
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