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American Football 101 |OT| - Schemes, breakdown and professorial talk

A

AlucarD.eq

Member
Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread and I'll probably will have little to contribute since, well I'm new to this game. At the moment I'm trying to help my university in China with our football team. Since we are most new to the sport what book would you recommend me to learn how to set some schemes and formations for our team.

I'll try to create a roster of the players but most of us are really small (as well all the players in the 4 university league we may get involve later this year)

PS: I should apologize in advance for my english :/
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ since you got banished from the other thread, what are the Bills plans with Byrd? Do they want to keep him? Does he want to stay? Tag?

AlucarD.eq said:
Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread and I'll probably will have little to contribute since, well I'm new to this game. At the moment I'm trying to help my university in China with our football team. Since we are most new to the sport what book would you recommend me to learn how to set some schemes and formations for our team.

I'll try to create a roster of the players but most of us are really small (as well all the players in the 4 university league we may get involve later this year)

PS: I should apologize in advance for my english :/
Click to expand...

Are you guys going to play 11v11? Might be better to start 7v7
 
L

LJ11

Member
squicken said:
LJ since you got banished from the other thread, what are the Bills plans with Byrd? Do they want to keep him? Does he want to stay? Tag?



Are you guys going to play 11v11? Might be better to start 7v7
Click to expand...

Think he gets the tag, no real talks, wants to test the market, don't blame him.
 
C

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
AlucarD.eq said:
We already have a Flag football team, I'm also playing in a local amateur team. And for the moment I'm trying to help them to create a basic Playbook but at that point I'm completely lost haha. Thanks I'll check the website so far I have been using this website:
http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2010/2/23/1303550/defensive-coverage-techniques-i
Click to expand...

I'm betting that if you guys do the boring and difficult things, i.e. practice, work on technique and get in great physical shape, wins will come easy.
 
E

Edgeward

Member
AlucarD.eq said:
Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread and I'll probably will have little to contribute since, well I'm new to this game. At the moment I'm trying to help my university in China with our football team. Since we are most new to the sport what book would you recommend me to learn how to set some schemes and formations for our team.

I'll try to create a roster of the players but most of us are really small (as well all the players in the 4 university league we may get involve later this year)

PS: I should apologize in advance for my english :/
Click to expand...

I just got done Mike Leach's book and there was a anecdote from Peter Berg that had a peewee team and wanted Mike to help him with techniques and such. Mike then just told him to run crossing patterns because young minds on D can't handle complex crossing patterns. "If you run enough crossing patterns, there'll be unquestionably be windows of opportunity. You just have to deliver in those windows." They were unstoppable
 
L

LJ11

Member
Going to pimp a Bills blog.

Food for thought.

There's also a yearly pass rusher breakdown that a guy did, last year Nick Perry had the top marks. Hard to quantify this stuff, but it does highlight certain numerical characteristics that you want to see.
 
F

Futurevoid

Member
LJ11 said:
Going to pimp a Bills blog.

Food for thought.

There's also a yearly pass rusher breakdown that a guy did, last year Nick Perry had the top marks. Hard to quantify this stuff, but it does highlight certain numerical characteristics that you want to see.
Click to expand...
So reading that latest blog update it really makes me wonder how a guy like Cruz goes undrafted. What did scouts see that turned them off of the guy. Small school, etc.?
 
L

LJ11

Member
Futurevoid said:
So reading that latest blog update it really makes me wonder how a guy like Cruz goes undrafted> What did scouts see that turned them off of the guy. Small school, etc.?
Click to expand...
I'm sure that was a big factor. A scout once mentioned how small school guys need to stand out big time, they should stick out immediately, be the best player on the field, etc.

Edit two big scouting services may have something to do with it as well.
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ11 said:
Going to pimp a Bills blog.

Food for thought.

There's also a yearly pass rusher breakdown that a guy did, last year Nick Perry had the top marks. Hard to quantify this stuff, but it does highlight certain numerical characteristics that you want to see.
Click to expand...

That's pretty interesting. I never really paid much attention to the formula stuff for players. Figured it was just tape + red flags at the combine. I do know that Brian Quick was a dubious pick. Makes sense he is on the High Risk list. I don't really see anything special about his game. Liked Stephen Hill a lot more
 
L

LJ11

Member
squicken said:
That's pretty interesting. I never really paid much attention to the formula stuff for players. Figured it was just tape + red flags at the combine. I do know that Brian Quick was a dubious pick. Makes sense he is on the High Risk list. I don't really see anything special about his game. Liked Stephen Hill a lot more
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Yeah, I don't put much value in it either, but it does isolate a few traits that you might want to focus on. Tape is still king.

I'll keep a look out for the pass rusher breakdown, that's always the most interesting one. Basically boils down to 10 yard split, vertical, and one of the cone tests.
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ11 said:
Yeah, I don't put much value in it either, but it does isolate a few traits that you might want to focus on. Tape is still king.

I'll keep a look out for the pass rusher breakdown, that's always the most interesting one. Basically boils down to 10 yard split, vertical, and one of the cone tests.
Click to expand...

Well I think it has value if it produces good data year after year. He'll need to publish his finding before every draft and then see how it looks a few years later. The problem with so many players is that they receive awful coaching or are asked to do things that can't really do. But then maybe it washes it with guys who aren't really as good as they appear, but go to good situations?

He had Jacoby Jones as a bust. Is he, now?
 
D

DeaconKnowledge

Member
squicken said:
Well I think it has value if it produces good data year after year. He'll need to publish his finding before every draft and then see how it looks a few years later. The problem with so many players is that they receive awful coaching or are asked to do things that can't really do. But then maybe it washes it with guys who aren't really as good as they appear, but go to good situations?

He had Jacoby Jones as a bust. Is he, now?
Click to expand...

He's the guy I kept fixating on when I read the article.
 
L

LJ11

Member
squicken said:
Well I think it has value if it produces good data year after year. He'll need to publish his finding before every draft and then see how it looks a few years later. The problem with so many players is that they receive awful coaching or are asked to do things that can't really do. But then maybe it washes it with guys who aren't really as good as they appear, but go to good situations?

He had Jacoby Jones as a bust. Is he, now?
Click to expand...

He had a good SB, nothing else has a changed.

Football outsiders has sackseer, which they've been using over the last 3 or 4 seasons, its so hit and miss. Also have one for RBs, remember a couple of years ago the top two being Mattehws and Best.

If anything it's a confirmation tool.
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ11 said:
He had a good SB, nothing else has a changed.

Football outsiders has sackseer, which they've been using over the last 3 or 4 seasons, its so hit and miss. Also have one for RBs, remember a couple of years ago the top two being Mattehws and Best.

If anything it's a confirmation tool.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was vaguely aware of the FO stuff, which is why I sort of had ignore the numbers-based projections. And God knows I don't like Jacoby, but he was just a 3rd round pick. He isn't a bust. I'm not labelling him a success, just a non-bust

Anyone watch much Tennessee this year? Is there a big difference in Keenan Allen vs Patterson? Is Patterson that much better an athlete?
 
L

LJ11

Member
squicken said:
Yeah I was vaguely aware of the FO stuff, which is why I sort of had ignore the numbers-based projections. And God knows I don't like Jacoby, but he was just a 3rd round pick. He isn't a bust. I'm not labelling him a success, just a non-bust

Anyone watch much Tennessee this year? Is there a big difference in Keenan Allen vs Patterson? Is Patterson that much better an athlete?
Click to expand...

I watched Patterson a few times, including the opener where he torched NC repeatedly. They're both good after the catch, but Patterson has more moves/speed. Doesn't seem to be running that fast but he's certainly out running most everyone. Runs a bit awkwardly, so that might be why it doesn't look like he's going that fast. Has a lot of moves/jukes/dekes, remember this spin he pulled off, it was really unique. You never see a guy moving like that, especially at his size, and it throws defenders off.

They're both catch and run guys, though Patterson caught more deep balls. Bray loves to go deep, so Patterson benefited from that. Allen didn't get to stretch the field as much, more quick/short routes, but he comes back for the ball and does a good job attacking and shielding the defender.

On field speed Patterson has the edge, along with moves, but you rarely saw him go up and get the ball, not sure if that's in his game, small sample for me anyway. Lots of teams in the top 10 need a WR so he's going to go high.

I like a lot of the receivers in this class unlike last year. I'd take any of the top dozen or so guys without hesitation.

Saw you guys talking about Whitner/Culliver in the NFL thread, that's a topic I wanted to discuss and was thinking about the last couple of weeks. Split safety coverage is pretty fascinating when you start digging around, especially if you throw in the third safety, can really change things up and mask a lot of things. Remember the Jets a few years ago talking about changing their quarters coverage after the Pats blow out, switched a few things up and Brady was confused as ever.
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ11 said:
Saw you guys talking about Whitner/Culliver in the NFL thread, that's a topic I wanted to discuss and was thinking about the last couple of weeks. Split safety coverage is pretty fascinating when you start digging around, especially if you throw in the third safety, can really change things up and mask a lot of things. Remember the Jets a few years ago talking about changing their quarters coverage after the Pats blow out, switched a few things up and Brady was confused as ever.
Click to expand...

Thx for info on the WRs. Definitely the area I'm going to be most interested in. Hope to see lots of QBs get over-drafted early on.

Saw something, can't remember who, about how complex handoffs in secondary are now. CBs will run down field with WR if he stays outside, but sit down in zone if outside WR goes inside. Safety takes WR going inside and CB is waiting for slot or TE to come outside. And that can just be half the field.

Even for guys who have done it for a living it can be hard to tell what the coverages are. Flacco's biggest problem, and I guess really most QBs, is diagnosing coverages quickly and going through progressions. But given enough time, all the disguising breaks down. Whitner kind of threw that in with the Culliver stuff

I hate that you made that bet. This thread is a snow globe and the other one is crap after crap. This thread needs to be football. We need to broaden what is acceptable. I'm not talking Bleacher Report lists, but more than what we have now. Just a place to discuss football without the TMZ, GQ, movies, games, etc
 
Y

yankeehater

Member
squicken said:
Thx for info on the WRs. Definitely the area I'm going to be most interested in. Hope to see lots of QBs get over-drafted early on.

Saw something, can't remember who, about how complex handoffs in secondary are now. CBs will run down field with WR if he stays outside, but sit down in zone if outside WR goes inside. Safety takes WR going inside and CB is waiting for slot or TE to come outside. And that can just be half the field.

Even for guys who have done it for a living it can be hard to tell what the coverages are. Flacco's biggest problem, and I guess really most QBs, is diagnosing coverages quickly and going through progressions. But given enough time, all the disguising breaks down. Whitner kind of threw that in with the Culliver stuff

I hate that you made that bet. This thread is a snow globe and the other one is crap after crap. This thread needs to be football. We need to broaden what is acceptable. I'm not talking Bleacher Report lists, but more than what we have now. Just a place to discuss football without the TMZ, GQ, movies, games, etc
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. I find my self skimming more and more through whole pages trying to find any football talk. It almost feels like the lockout again.
 
D

DeaconKnowledge

Member
It's a bad time. There's next to no legit NFL news right now, shy of cuts from rosters, and putting that stuff in here just makes this an info dump.
 
F

Futurevoid

Member
Fantastic article/film breakdown on Word of Muth. He's doing a two parter reviewing the Niners offensive line in the Super Bowl. Part I deals with the Trap/Wham concept the Niners use and calls out some specific twists and wrinkles they added for the big game along with a great in-depth look at some of the blocking techniques they ask of their offensive lineman.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-super-bowl-review

I'll post Part II when it goes up. Great reading!
 
N

Narag

Member
I finally remembered something I'd been meaning to ask!

Is there a particular part of the field players are required to enter/exit from? I recall seeing instances towards the end of a game where receivers run deep routes then just lazily walk back eating up valuable time before the spike can occur. Always wondered why they didn't have them exit the field further down and bring another guy in quickly to set up for the spike.
 
C

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
Narag said:
I finally remembered something I'd been meaning to ask!

Is there a particular part of the field players are required to enter/exit from? I recall seeing instances towards the end of a game where receivers run deep routes then just lazily walk back eating up valuable time before the spike can occur. Always wondered why they didn't have them exit the field further down and bring another guy in quickly to set up for the spike.
Click to expand...

If you substitute, then you have to let the defense substitute. And you know the defenders are going to lollygag onto the field. I was watching a college game, Oregon maybe, and they subbed like that, the deep receivers immediately left the field and new guys ran on.
 
W

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Has anyone read, "The Essential Smart Football" by Chris Brown? The Kindle version is only $3, and I was looking for a new read. Does anyone have anything to say for or against it?
 
E

eznark

Banned
Wellington said:
Has anyone read, "The Essential Smart Football" by Chris Brown? The Kindle version is only $3, and I was looking for a new read. Does anyone have anything to say for or against it?
Click to expand...

I think it's in the OP. It's a cool history lesson if nothing else.
 
A

AlucarD.eq

Member
Futurevoid said:
Fantastic article/film breakdown on Word of Muth. He's doing a two parter reviewing the Niners offensive line in the Super Bowl. Part I deals with the Trap/Wham concept the Niners use and calls out some specific twists and wrinkles they added for the big game along with a great in-depth look at some of the blocking techniques they ask of their offensive lineman.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-super-bowl-review

I'll post Part II when it goes up. Great reading!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the article! Awesome writing even for a newbie like me.
 
S

squicken

Member
http://scouttheseahawks.com/2988-2/

This is a pretty good breakdown of the DEs in the draft, with a focus on the types of DEs that might fight Carrol's LEO role. Really impressed with lots of the "fan" sites out there. Seems to be just as good as the national guys. If you guys come across anything on WRs and TEs please post them.

One guy who seems to be a little divisive is Moore from A&M. There's an idea that he sort of walks into sacks b/c he has a high motor, a criticism I have had for Chris Long. I watch a lot of A&M and never really felt he was dominant. Nothing like what Von Miller was doing, but a lot of that could be explained by how much passing went on in the big 12 vs the SEC

Another Aggie observation I can offer is just how good Joeckel was. Manziel had all day vs lots of good defenses. I think he's a very safe pick who could have a very high ceiling. In a draft where there seems to be a lot of "meh" at the top, he's who I would go with at #1
 
L

LJ11

Member
Mingo is big time boom/bust, I like him more than most, had a better year last season but maybe teams got a beat on him. Definitely wasn't as dynamic, wasnt as sudden, many blame the coaches. I didn't see that quick change of direction, he's showed heavy/strong hands but you didn't see that consistently this year. Just kept trying to speed rush his way to a sack.

Like Moore too, I think he's getting a bit of a bad rap but we'll see. All in how you use him I guess. I've seen some knock his run D, others praise it, he's looked stout to me when I've watched him play. Think he's a good player.

Werner gets lazy against the run you see it all the time, but I think that's a reps issue more than an effort. Love Carradine too, but the poor guy got hurt. The write up is much too generous for Tank, he's a good one, his first step isn't as good as its being described but he has very violent hands. He smacks the shit out of tackles, plays too upright at times allowing T to get into his outside shoulder. High effort guy too.

My favorite guy in this draft is Ellington, similar man crush to Lavonte David. I also like Floyd, see that's he's getting crazy hype. It's a good draft at the two positions that can turn around teams in a hurry, OL/DL, good WR depth as well.

Jordan's an interesting player, he didnt rush much this year. Seemed like he was running with a slot receiver more than one would expect, would love to see a breakdown. Definitely looked like he could cover, especially for a man his size.

No comments on Johnson, you brought up Joeckel but what about your boy from OU? Getting lots of buzz.
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ11 said:
No comments on Johnson, you brought up Joeckel but what about your boy from OU? Getting lots of buzz.
Click to expand...

I have also seen Floyd getting lots of talk recently. Daniel Jeremiah has him as surefire Top 10 guy.

As far as Lane Johnson, it's always tough for me with OU. The Big 12 just doesn't have good pass rushers. OU never could run the ball consistently, but they had bad backs and injuries at 3 other positions. They also throw lots of quick passes. I have the same thought I had with Trent Williams. When I heard he was a top 10 pick, I thought "really?!" It's not that he looked bad, it's just that he was never in position to ever not look good. Their little dink and dunk offense never exposes their tackles, and the opposing defenses just aren't good week in and week out

With Joeckel, I can say he went up vs LSU, Georgia, Florida, and Bama and beat his man. All we have on Lane Johnson is the A&M game and maybe NDU. In those two games, he did fine. It's not him getting blown up on poor running plays, or letting pressure get through. I wish I could give a better answer but the Big 12 is just so poor on the defensive line that it's hard to judge anyone. One of the reasons I watched so much A&M was I was getting disgusted at how poor the defenses were playing in the Big 12. I think Johnson is getting buzz now b/c scouts didn't have a lot to look at him with on tape, but in workouts and 1v1 at the Senior Bowl, he could impress
 
S

squicken

Member
Rotoworld has been doing good stuff with their writeups on players. Zach Ertz

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/42519/321/zach-ertz-fluid-mover

Definitely like him over Eifert, but seems to be a guy who needs to be off the line to excel. But 6-6 guys are so valuable in the Red Zone.

I saw something the other day from an un-named AFC personnel guy that said Matt Barkley is physically Kellen Moore. That seemed pretty harsh but also kind of funny considering the guy was supposed to be the #1 pick coming into the year
 
L

LJ11

Member
I love the way Eifert attacks the ball, he's not the fastest guy but he gets open and uses every inch to make the catch. You know he's going to go up and get it in traffic, will body up a safety easily.
 
S

squicken

Member
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/futures/2013/futures-baylor-wr-terrance-williams

Terrance Williams writeup. Loved him at Bayor. Big 12 defenses and all, but was better than Gordon and Wright imo

bdaneqlcaaa3xmn73kb4.png
 
L

LJ11

Member
Swope is the white guy everyone forgets to cover. No clue how he racks up the yards. With Tannehill he improvised a ton and nabbed huge gains.

Edit: Everyone bags on this draft for one obvious reason, but looking at the receivers listed above, I'd love to have most of those guys on my team. Great depth at OL/DL/WR/TE and there's a couple of good backs.
 
S

squicken

Member
LJ11 said:
Swope is the white guy everyone forgets to cover. No clue how he racks up the yards. With Tannehill he improvised a ton and nabbed huge gains.

Edit: Everyone bags on this draft for one obvious reason, but looking at the receivers listed above, I'd love to have most of those guys on my team. Great depth at OL/DL/WR/TE and there's a couple of good backs.
Click to expand...

You like Woods from USC? Is he a forgotten man b/c of Lee or was never special to begin with? I definitely love the WRs from WVU and Baylor. Opponent or not, those guys jump off the screen

Swope idk. I thought he looked pretty damn slow this year. A&M kind of had weak WRs and he benefited a lot from the JFF fuckball. Don't see him as much as a pro
 
L

LJ11

Member
squicken said:
You like Woods from USC? Is he a forgotten man b/c of Lee or was never special to begin with? I definitely love the WRs from WVU and Baylor. Opponent or not, those guys jump off the screen

Swope idk. I thought he looked pretty damn slow this year. A&M kind of had weak WRs and he benefited a lot from the JFF fuckball. Don't see him as much as a pro
Click to expand...

Swope sucks, no doubt. Even with Tannehill, the play would break down and he'd run a different route and get behind a D, did it a lot.

Woods got a lot of his yards underneath, but yeah, I do think he's a bit of a forgotten man. Pretty strange actually, not much talk, but I think he's a good player. Definitely overshadowed a bit by Lee, but he'd be a good addition for most teams, can see him working a lot in the slot.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
As a USC fan... Woods is good. Fantastic hands, good awareness, runs a solid route. Very "smart" WR. He just doesn't have the pure freak athleticism of Lee.
 
S

squicken

Member
I really don't know on him, Dutch. My feeling is he is a guy that lots of teams already have. You have that type of player, and you want to upgrade him every year, but it's never a huge need.

Unreleated to Woods, but a really good podcast I finally listened to was from Sigmund Bloom. Had LZ and Dane Brugler. Just a good way to get familiar with names and perception and their analysis

http://podcast.footballguys.com/2013/Footballguys-Audible-2013-Vol14a.mp3
 
D

Dutch Gronk

Banned
squicken said:
I really don't know on him, Dutch. My feeling is he is a guy that lots of teams already have. You have that type of player, and you want to upgrade him every year, but it's never a huge need.

Unreleated to Woods, but a really good podcast I finally listened to was from Sigmund Bloom. Had LZ and Dane Brugler. Just a good way to get familiar with names and perception and their analysis

http://podcast.footballguys.com/2013/Footballguys-Audible-2013-Vol14a.mp3
Click to expand...

Decided to read up a bit on Woods. Seems that people had him rated a lot higher a while ago than where he is projected now. Some mentions of him going top 10 and all that, now he's a late first/early second rounder.

Still an interesting guy, the biggest negative about him seems to be his somewhat small frame. 6'1" and around 180 pounds and not a whole lot of strength. Could be in trouble when facing a bigger CB ala Sherman when getting off the line.

But the positives also seem to be impressive, one website used the hyperbole 'Some of the best hands in America'. Plus he's undeniably fast and according to the draft people, he really knows what he's doing, how to adjust to certain coverages/looks and find the soft spot in coverage.

Reading about him gets me kind of excited about the guy, but how much of all his production is him and how much playing for USC helping nowadays?
 
L

LJ11

Member
squicken said:
I really don't know on him, Dutch. My feeling is he is a guy that lots of teams already have. You have that type of player, and you want to upgrade him every year, but it's never a huge need.

Unreleated to Woods, but a really good podcast I finally listened to was from Sigmund Bloom. Had LZ and Dane Brugler. Just a good way to get familiar with names and perception and their analysis

http://podcast.footballguys.com/2013/Footballguys-Audible-2013-Vol14a.mp3
Click to expand...

I listened to last weeks podcast, it was pretty good. Also enjoyed it because none of these guys were set in their ways with the exception of Lande. Just seemed like it was a couple of guys who watch football talking about prospects they like.

Bruglers a real nice guy, and always answer questions. Good dude, so I'll give this another listen. Will read the FO articles too.
 
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