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[Angelus Errare]

Wait, is the OP using a Wikipedia list that says "This list is incomplete" for the comparison?

What if a police unit was used in war?
What about police operations in Ireland or the colonies? The Wikipedia article (lol) may ignore them but should we? Too much about the sources in the OP are ringing warning bells, though I could be wrong.

I actually don't think it's anything uniquely wrong with America. Sounds too much like a 'special path' theory to me when these type of issues are present throughout history.

Must be nice being the default.

 

[kame-sennin]

bingo. gun law in the states is getting people killed and making police super aggressive

This is such a bullshit argument. If that were true, most of the people killed would look like this:

Cops are killing black men because America has always had armed militias killing black men. Many of the oldest and largest police departments started out as slave catcher organizations. This is about America's long standing policy of killing black men. Gun laws don't have shit to do with it. In fact, the only reason America has gun control laws is to prevent black people from defending themselves against said long standing policy.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Honestly a more apt comparison would be the US versus Russia or China.

Countries in South America probably have the highest death tolls out there.

Because Americans should aspire to be more similar to Russia or China than the UK?

US is supposed to be a leading 1st world democracy, your firearms issue is a complete anomaly.

 

[MilkyJoe]

This is such a bullshit argument. If that were true, most of the people killed would look like this:

Cops are killing black men because America has always had armed militias killing black men. Many of the oldest and largest police departments started out as slave catcher organizations. This is about America's long standing policy of killing black men. Gun laws don't have shit to do with it. In fact, the only reason America has gun control laws is to prevent black people from defending themselves against said long standing policy.

I'm not American, but you are saying America has gun control laws specific to stopping black folk from defending themselves against state sanctioned murder of black men? What gun control are you citing? What gun control is there? Everyone seems to be armed to the teeth in some of the TV shows they air here.

Edit:

Ps if those guys in that photo were to do that here they would be lucky to get home alive, what madness legally let's someone casually walk in public with the opportunity to start shooting people whenever he fancies it. You must be a little unstable just to behave like that in the first place.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Must be nice being the default.

This right here is actually the problem. There's plenty wrong with the U.S. We're seriously backwards in many regards compared to any other first-world nation, but too many people wrap themselves in the flag and carry a cross while shouting "USA, USA!" to notice.

I'm not sure what you mean, Angelus?

I'm not saying there's not a problem, I'm saying it's not a unique one and it's not wildly unbelievable that when certain conditions are present stuff like this occurs. The question is, what are we going to do about it?

And that wasn't my main point since I think the OP is working from some seriously flawed data.

 

[kswiston]

This is such a bullshit argument. If that were true, most of the people killed would look like this:

Cops are killing black men because America has always had armed militias killing black men. Many of the oldest and largest police departments started out as slave catcher organizations. This is about America's long standing policy of killing black men. Gun laws don't have shit to do with it. In fact, the only reason America has gun control laws is to prevent black people from defending themselves against said long standing policy.

I'd hazard a guess that the numbers are still extremely skewed if you only compare white people killed by police in either country. Not to suggest that racial discrimination plays no part in the number. It's just not the only factor.

 

[Caronte]

What a gross oversimplification. Spain has one of the most strict Criminal Codes in Europe, and a very high prison population.

http://www.teinteresa.es/espana/Espana-Europa-Occidental-presos-carceles_0_559746109.html

We could do with a more lenient Criminal Code in this country, and more help for those who have already repaid their debt with society.

Even more? *sigh*

 

[Armaros]

UK Population: 64 Million

US Population: 316 Million


Literally 5 times of a larger population in the US. There's a point to be made here about the gang mentality of the American police force, but the logic used for comparison here couldn't be anymore braindead or lopsided if it tried.



Also THIS.

5 Times the population,

1380 times the police killings.

Sounds about right.

 

[Siegcram]

I'm not sure what you mean, Angelus?

I'm not saying there's not a problem, I'm saying it's not a unique one and it's not wildly unbelievable that when certain conditions are present stuff like this occurs. The question is, what are we going to do about it?

And that wasn't my main point since I think the OP is working from some seriously flawed data.

The degree of civil armament is something distinctly unique to the US among western countries. Show me one other country with an even remotely comparable fetishism of guns and militarism in law enforcement.

 

[jmdajr]

We have a lot of guns

 

[Link]

Even more? *sigh*

Yes? We have a very "Tough on crime, light on justice" mentality here.

EDIT - Sorry, I just realized you're talking about Spain.

 

[kame-sennin]

I'm not American, but you are saying America has gun control laws specific to stopping black folk from defending themselves against state sanctioned murder of black men? What gun control are you citing? What gun control is there?

Over the period of 1687-1865, Virginia enacted more than 130 slave statutes among which were seven major slave codes, with some containing more than fifty provisions.[5] “Black codes” in the antebellum South contained more regulations of free Blacks than of slaves. Chattel slaves basically lived under the complete control of their owners; non-slaves showed more of a challenge to the boundaries of White-dominated society.[6] Black Codes in the antebellum South heavily regulated what people could do. If a meaningful courtship was established across plantations, the enslaved risked severe punishments at the hands of the patrollers or a pass in order to pursue this relationship.[7] Blacks could not assemble, bear arms, become literate, speak freely, or testify against White people in Court.[8] These regulations intensified during the 1800s, intensifying after Nat Turner's insurrection of 1831, and culminating in the Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision of 1857.[9][10][11] Restrictions on manumission and freedom of movement placed restrictions on what Black people could do.

Black Codes restricted black people's right to own property, conduct business, buy and lease land, and move freely through public spaces...

Some states explicitly curtailed Black people's right to bear arms, justifying these laws with claims of imminent insurrection.[48][49] In Mississippi and Alabama, these laws were enforced through the creation of special militias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)

OPPOSITION TO GUN CONTROL was what drove the black militants to visit the California capitol with loaded weapons in hand. The Black Panther Party had been formed six months earlier, in Oakland, by Huey Newton and Bobby Seale. Like many young African Americans, Newton and Seale were frustrated with the failed promise of the civil-rights movement. Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were legal landmarks, but they had yet to deliver equal opportunity. In Newton and Seale’s view, the only tangible outcome of the civil-rights movement had been more violence and oppression, much of it committed by the very entity meant to protect and serve the public: the police...

Don Mulford, a conservative Republican state assemblyman from Alameda County, which includes Oakland, was determined to end the Panthers’ police patrols. To disarm the Panthers, he proposed a law that would prohibit the carrying of a loaded weapon in any California city.

THE PANTHERS’ METHODS provoked an immediate backlash. The day of their statehouse protest, lawmakers said the incident would speed enactment of Mulford’s gun-control proposal. Mulford himself pledged to make his bill even tougher, and he added a provision barring anyone but law enforcement from bringing a loaded firearm into the state capitol.

Republicans in California eagerly supported increased gun control. Governor Reagan* told reporters that afternoon that he saw “no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.” He called guns a “ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.” In a later press conference, Reagan said he didn’t “know of any sportsman who leaves his home with a gun to go out into the field to hunt or for target shooting who carries that gun loaded.” The Mulford Act, he said, “would work no hardship on the honest citizen.”

The fear inspired by black people with guns also led the United States Congress to consider new gun restrictions, after the summer of 1967 brought what the historian Harvard Sitkoff called the “most intense and destructive wave of racial violence the nation had ever witnessed.” Devastating riots engulfed Detroit and Newark. Police and National Guardsmen who tried to help restore order were greeted with sniper fire...

Together, these laws greatly expanded the federal licensing system for gun dealers and clarified which people—including anyone previously convicted of a felony, the mentally ill, illegal-drug users, and minors—were not allowed to own firearms. More controversially, the laws restricted importation of “Saturday Night Specials”—the small, cheap, poor-quality handguns so named by Detroit police for their association with urban crime, which spiked on weekends. Because these inexpensive pistols were popular in minority communities, one critic said the new federal gun legislation “was passed not to control guns but to control blacks.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/

Further, there is the fact that the most restrictive gun control laws exist in cities with the highest black and latino populations. You may think everyone in America is allowed to carry guns, but it is virtually impossible to own a gun in New York City and L.A. And before recent court cases, the same was true in Chicago and DC - all areas with high black populations.

*Yes, that Reagan.

 

[TacticalFox88]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)



http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/

Further, there is the fact that the most restrictive gun control laws exist in cities with the highest black and latino populations. You may think everyone in America is allowed to carry guns, but it is virtually impossible to own a gun in New York City and L.A. And before recent court cases, the same was true in Chicago and DC - all areas with high black populations.

*Yes, that Reagan.

It's comical.

EVERY SINGLE political issue in the USA right now can trace its roots in racism in the country's founding, Civil War, and various Civil Rights movements.

 

[TarNaru33]

Sorry I know I am late in responding to this.

Not really a good argument considering we've changed the american "culture" many times in the past. Point in case, slavery, civil rights, women's suffrage, and soon gay rights.

Oh, it was never an argument, just making sure people understood context. The culture will change, but I don't see it happening for a long time to come, not while the 2nd Amendment is so loosely interpreted. It is very unlikely anyone in the near future would want to touch the Bill of Rights either. I am for gun control basically, but it needs to be done on a federal level.

Are the differences in US culture that cause these discrepancies worth saving, in your opinion?

No, it isn't. Everything that causes this issue is against my own view on it. I am for gun control (I wouldn't mind an outright ban actually) and for stricter police policies and training.

All cops should have a camera on them and the information on it should be accessible to third parties. At least until trust between the police and U.S citizens is at an acceptable level.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Sorry I know I am late in responding to this.



Oh, it was never an argument, just making sure people understood context. The culture will change, but I don't see it happening for a long time to come, not while the 2nd Amendment is so loosely interpreted. It is very unlikely anyone in the near future would want to touch the Bill of Rights either. I am for gun control basically, but it needs to be done on a federal level.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[crazy monkey]

both of these countries will be of the charts if the kills from other countries are included since 1900.

Regarding the topic I am scared of USA and was not fun when i traveled there. Too many gun happy people.

 

[TarNaru33]

This is such a bullshit argument. If that were true, most of the people killed would look like this:

I am confused, are you saying most people being killed would be killed in open carry states/areas while exercising that right or are you saying most would be white?

 

[Siegcram]

I am confused, are you saying most people being killed would be killed in open carry states/areas while exercising that right or are you saying most would be white?

He's saying most guys killed would be those carrying actual guns. Who are more often than not white.

As it stands the ones getting shot are black kids and adults that carry toy guns, prop swords or "are reaching for the officer's weapon" I.e. unarmed.

 

[TarNaru33]

He's saying most guys killed would be those carrying actual guns. Who are more often than not white.

As it stands the ones getting shot are black kids and adults that carry toy guns, prop swords or "are reaching for the officer's weapon" I.e. unarmed.

I don't know, going by his whole post, I am not sure if I believe that to be his meaning. I mean "the whole reason U.S has gun control laws is to prevent blacks from having" is quite a statement. No doubt some truth in it, but its a stretch.

Also, you are talking high profile cases. We need a list of how many that actually got killed was unarmed to those that were. I did a quick scan of that link in the OP and found many of those shootings did have a suspect that is/was armed. Contrary to what he said, the gun culture of U.S is highly responsible for these incidents. No one, not a cop, child, man, or woman should have to fear for their life by an armed population.

This is why U.S needs a actual statistic.

I will go over that link later to read all the articles to see just how many killed were unarmed.

 

[hoola]

I wonder how many beatings take place for every person who is murdered by a police officer.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I wonder how many beatings take place for every person who is murdered by a police officer.

I wonder how many drug charges are due to cops covering their asses after assaulting people.....

like the story from last week where the ford employee was dragged out of his car and beaten for rolling a stop sign......followed by an officer prevoiusly charged with planting evidence being caught on dash cam waving a baggie of coke IN FRONT OF ALL THE OTHER OFFICERS (#bad apples)....that eventually found its way into the guys trunk causing him to be charged with possession.....

Seriously America.

You forfeit thousands of peoples right to live every year due to your gun problems and second amendment so that you can have your guns to fight back when government oversteps its marks.

I see fuck loads of guns.

Every week I see miltiarised police brutalising citizens.

I see ZERO fighting back.

I dont believe the reason you say you want guns, is the reason you want guns.

 

[The Cowboy]

You wanna throw army kills into the mix? Oh boy.

I'm from Belfast and lived there during the troubles, i think we should add the deaths in Northern Ireland/Ireland by the armed forces - these aren't factored into the deaths from 1900 to now across the UK by police for obvious reasons, but they did act as the police force for that time.
-
There was a total of 368 deaths involving the British forces and the Irish forces during the entire 30+ years of troubles - that's it.
-
I bet people thought it would be higher than that, its quite an amazing figure when you factor in what went on during those 30+ years.

 

[kharma45]

I'm from Belfast and lived there during the troubles, i think we should add the deaths in Northern Ireland/Ireland by the armed forces - these aren't factored into the deaths from 1900 to now across the UK by police for obvious reasons, but they did act as the police force for that time.
-
There was a total of 368 deaths involving the British forces and the Irish forces during the entire 30+ years of troubles - that's it.
-
I bet people thought it would be higher than that, its quite an amazing figure when you factor in what went on during those 30+ years.

The RUC still existed at that time and killed 58 people. That's the figure that should be included. The Army I'm less sure on. They were there supporting the police in maintaining law and order but weren't carrying out day to day policing roles, so I'd be hesitant to throw them in.

 

[Tabris]

Okay OP, I'll give you that but can you say the UK enjoys the kind of "freedoms" we do? I rest my case.

Here is the economic freedom index:

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

UK and US are 13th and 12th respectively

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World

UK and US have the exact same rating on the Civil and Political Liberties scales.

What scale of freedoms do you have that has the US past UK?

 

[dalin80]

I'm from Belfast and lived there during the troubles, i think we should add the deaths in Northern Ireland/Ireland by the armed forces - these aren't factored into the deaths from 1900 to now across the UK by police for obvious reasons, but they did act as the police force for that time.
-
There was a total of 368 deaths involving the British forces and the Irish forces during the entire 30+ years of troubles - that's it.
-
I bet people thought it would be higher than that, its quite an amazing figure when you factor in what went on during those 30+ years.

The forces there were against the IRA who killed over 2000 civilians and services personal. When you have to factor in the circumstance of what was essentially a slow burning war and that still isn't enough to level the statistics then that just makes the problem look even worse.

 

[Tabris]

You forfeit thousands of peoples right to live every year due to your gun problems and second amendment so that you can have your guns to fight back when government oversteps its marks.

One of the countries known very well for their citizens getting what they want via protests and being able to overthrow their government several times in the past is France. France has extremely strict gun laws. The only way you are getting guns is via hunting licenses which require psychological checks or illegally (like the Charlie Hebdo terrorists did).

Gun laws cannot stop a revolution if a revolution is going to happen.

 

[dan2026]

I dont believe the reason you say you want guns, is the reason you want guns.

This.

Its such bullshit.

 

[Hunter S.]

Basically the op compares a site dedicated to showing poice killings to a WIKAPEDIA page that says at the top it is incomplete. Real college level reliability here. Good intention, but terrible method.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Here is the economic freedom index:

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

UK and US are 13th and 12th respectively

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World

UK and US have the exact same rating on the Civil and Political Liberties scales.

What scale of freedoms do you have that has the US past UK?

Being able to own a shooter... And who would give up the peace of mind of not having to worry about gun crime for the right to own a gun.

Boys toys...

 

[paparazzo]

Basically the op compares a site dedicated to showing poice killings to a WIKAPEDIA page that says at the top it is incomplete. Real college level reliability here. Good intention, but terrible method.

Yup.

Our ruling

Addicting Information said that "U.S. police killed more people in just one month than the U.K.’s did in over a century."

This comparison was based on an incomplete Wikipedia list. While hard figures for the number of police-related deaths in the United Kingdom over more than a century are impossible to come by, our research shows the comparison is inaccurate.

It’s certainly unproven.

That makes it deeply flawed, which means it’s False.

 

[Dice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...f-guns/308608/

Further, there is the fact that the most restrictive gun control laws exist in cities with the highest black and latino populations. You may think everyone in America is allowed to carry guns, but it is virtually impossible to own a gun in New York City and L.A. And before recent court cases, the same was true in Chicago and DC - all areas with high black populations.

*Yes, that Reagan.

They wrote another lovely article recently on police reform.

http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-myth-of-police-reform/390057/

 

[Palculator]

The articles in this thread are super interesting! Love TheAtlantic.

Also, thread title reminded me about these: US police fire more bullets in a month than Germans use in a year

 

[YoungHav]

Kame-sennin droppin' knowledge.

It's comical.

EVERY SINGLE political issue in the USA right now can trace its roots in racism in the country's founding, Civil War, and various Civil Rights movements.

Yup. Pretty much. But we're in "post racial America"!

 

[kingwingin]

I don't really understand the whole second amendment thing.

I know you have the right to be packing at all times but who are you going to shoot? People mention protecting themselves from military police. But at what point will you shoot police? Or military?

 

[Log4Girlz]

I don't really understand the whole second amendment thing.

I know you have the right to be packing at all times but who are you going to shoot? People mention protecting themselves from military police. But at what point will you shoot police? Or military?

Many Americans have a deep distrust of government. I mean, power has already concentrated to two parties. That's one step away from an authoritarian government. They want the option to violently rebel if shit hits the fan. That's what our people want.

 

[kingwingin]

Many Americans have a deep distrust of government. I mean, power has already concentrated to two parties. That's one step away from an authoritarian government. They want the option to violently rebel if shit hits the fan. That's what our people want.

but what happens after? If the government loses who makes and enforces rules? The economy? If the government doesn't lose what happens to all the people who shot at them?

 

[TheJLC]

but what happens after? If the government loses who makes and enforces rules? The economy? If the government doesn't lose what happens to all the people who shot at them?

Who knows. It has to happen before we find out. Hopefully it never gets to that, though. And realistically, it isn't likely if people actually vote and demand changes or reforms when they disagree with the government.

 

[Raxus]

but what happens after? If the government loses who makes and enforces rules? The economy? If the government doesn't lose what happens to all the people who shot at them?

He is joking (somewhat).

 

[Log4Girlz]

but what happens after? If the government loses who makes and enforces rules? The economy? If the government doesn't lose what happens to all the people who shot at them?

We'll cross the bridge when we get to it. There is not a written up plan shared by all citizens.

 

[IISANDERII]

Sounds about right when comparing a free nation vs. an oligarchy.

 

[Palculator]

Sounds about right when comparing a free nation vs. an oligarchy.

...wait.

Which is which?