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[liger05]

And the other half of the country decided to overthrow them. If a constitution is not at the very least secular and fair to everyone, with strong civil liberties, it is illegitimate. We know why Morsi was deposed and it was justified.

Killing pro-morsi protesters is obviously wrong but the defense of the muslim brotherhood through this democracy talk means nothing if those voted in by democracy plan to rule from the quran (or bible, whatever it is, it's not going to be tolerated). I don't think anyone is defending the military killing peaceful protesters, nobody should. I'm just saying the alternative is not to put MB back in power. They forfeited their 'legitimacy' when they put religious shit in the constitution and ignored reasonable, valid arguments against it.

What religious shit did they put in the constitution? I am amazed when people keep saying this as I cant seem to remember them doing this.

The secular/non-secular divide isn't even the main issue here. It's the Mubarak-era elite, which remains deeply entrenched, not wanting to give up their positions of power in Egypt. The fears that Morsi was Hitler come again about to turn Egypt into a fundamentalist state were a product of the relentless propagandizing of the media, most of which is still controlled by Mubarak's cronies. The fact of the matter is the Muslim Brotherhood was far too weak to seize power and transform the country as they pleased considering how deeply entrenched Mubarak-era institutions still are.

Very true. Many of the state institutions were were working against the MB from day one.

 

[numble]

Egypt restores feared secret police units
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/29/egypt-restores-secret-police-units

Egypt's interim government was accused of attempting to return the country to the Mubarak era on Monday, after the country's interior ministry announced the resurrection of several controversial police units that were nominally shut down following the country's 2011 uprising and the interim prime minister was given the power to place the country in a state of emergency.

Egypt's state security investigations service, Mabahith Amn ad-Dawla, a wing of the police force under President Mubarak, and a symbol of police oppression, was supposedly closed in March 2011 – along with several units within it that investigated Islamist groups and opposition activists. The new national security service (NSS) was established in its place.

But following Saturday's massacre of at least 83 Islamists, interior minister Mohamed Ibrahim announced the reinstatement of the units, and referred to the NSS by its old name. He added that experienced police officers sidelined in the aftermath of the 2011 revolution would be brought back into the fold.

Police brutality also went unchecked under Morsi, who regularly failed to condemn police abuses committed during his presidency. But Ibrahim's move suggests he is using the ousting of Morsi – and a corresponding upsurge in support for Egypt's police – as a smokescreen for the re-introduction of pre-2011 practices.

Ibrahim's announcement came hours before Egypt's interim prime minister was given the power to place the country in a state of emergency – a hallmark of Egypt under Mubarak.

"It's a return to the Mubarak era," said Aida Seif el-Dawla, a prominent Egyptian human rights activist, and the executive director of a group that frequently supports victims of police brutality, the Nadeem centre for rehabilitation of victims of violence and torture.

"These units committed the most atrocious human rights violations," said el-Dawla. "Incommunicado detentions, killings outside the law. Those were the [units] that managed the killing of Islamists during the 1990s. It's an ugly authority that has never been brought to justice."

Karim Ennarah, a researcher on criminal justice and policing at the Egyptian initiative for personal rights (EIPR), said the units were never disbanded. But he said that Ibrahim may be using the current support for the police as a excuse for their public rehabilitation.

"These units for monitoring political groups are not back. They never went anywhere in the first place," said Ennarah. "The only thing that happened was that they changed the name. He's trying to use a situation where the factors on the ground make it easier to re-legitimise these units and police practices."

"Basically, nothing changed at state security [in 2011] except for the name," said Heba Morayef, Egypt director at Human Rights Watch. "So what is significant is that [Ibrahim] could announce this publicly. That would have been unthinkable in 2011. This kind of monitoring of political activity was considered one of the major ills of the Mubarak era. So the fact that he has come out and said this now reflects a new confidence on behalf of the interior ministry. They feel they have been returned to their pre-2011 status."

Hatred of the police was a major cause of the 2011 revolution, while their reform was one of its implicit demands. But the police's obvious enthusiasm for Morsi's fall has helped to rehabilitate them in the eyes of many. Uniformed officers were seen carrying anti-Morsi propaganda in the run-up to his departure, while police failed to protect the offices of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood.

Many policemen even marched against Morsi, and at some anti-Morsi rallies protesters chanted: "The police and the people are one hand."

On Friday, hundreds of thousands of Egyptians filled streets across the country to show their backing for the army and the police – after General Abdel Fatah al-Sisi, the army chief who forced Morsi from office on 3 July, asked for their backing to fight what he termed as terrorism. Ibrahim's announcement the next day hinted that he felt he had implicit public support for a crackdown on not just terrorists but religious and secular activism of all kinds.

"Our pride is back," one middle-ranking Cairo-based police officer told the Guardian, adding that state security's notorious treatment of detainees was reasonable given that, in his view, the detainees were unlikely to be innocent.

"Ninety per cent of the people I'm dealing with are guilty – so I will not deal with them nicely. I have to be tough, I have to be rough. And that's how state security behave – because 99% of the people they are dealing with are guilty.

"If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear. The only people who should fear are the guilty ones – the ones who steal, the ones who kill, the ones who do deals with other countries. Like Morsi, who dealt with Hamas – and who wanted to sell Sinai to America," the officer added, referring to as-yet-unproven allegations that ex-president Morsi colluded with Palestinian Islamist group Hamas during the 2011 uprising.

While the police and army enjoy widespread support among the millions of Egyptians who called for Morsi's overthrow, a few Morsi opponents have refused to back the army's renewed involvement in politics, and the corresponding return to favour of the police.

...

 

[General Choomin]

Most people who are for the coup in the west are doing so not because they think they are "protecting democracy", a silly notion in itself. But because they are islamophobic knee jerk reactionaries who see anything with "muslim" or "islam" in the name and automatically spew racist bile about "sharia law" or other nonsense.

Morsi's government was doomed from the beginning. He couldn't control capital flight and had to make large amounts of concessions to institutions that where from the Mubarak era such as the military and the judiciary. As well as try to get the best deals for capital infusion from foreign institutions like the IMF while trying to avoid the strings they so love to attache.

I also severely doubt the number of protestors and signatures against Morsi was that much. It was likely over exaggerated and promoted by one of the many Arab news outlets that are part of a recent propaganda war in the middle east. As well as the Egyptian state tv service, a propaganda outlet of the military, which only purpose is to spew the biggest lies ever to the masses.

 

[Tylahedras]

And America gives these people money. Disgusting.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Egypt restores feared secret police units
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/29/egypt-restores-secret-police-units

Anyone else thinking the Army is taking steps to ensure they don't ever have to give up power again?

Pretty crazy that this is happening and it's not being condemned or the US isn't threatening to withdraw aid, per their own laws.

 

[OttomanScribe]

They bring back the Mukhabarat and argue that this is for democracy.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I have a good Egyptian friend.

Haven't seen him in a long time. Wonder if he's alright...

He's a Hotel manager, so I imagine this overall ordeal has hit him very hard.

 

[zeroOman]

Most people who are for the coup in the west are doing so not because they think they are "protecting democracy", a silly notion in itself. But because they are islamophobic knee jerk reactionaries who see anything with "muslim" or "islam" in the name and automatically spew racist bile about "sharia law" or other nonsense.

Morsi's government was doomed from the beginning. He couldn't control capital flight and had to make large amounts of concessions to institutions that where from the Mubarak era such as the military and the judiciary. As well as try to get the best deals for capital infusion from foreign institutions like the IMF while trying to avoid the strings they so love to attache.

I also severely doubt the number of protesters and signatures against Morsi was that much. It was likely over exaggerated and promoted by one of the many Arab news outlets that are part of a recent propaganda war in the middle east. As well as the Egyptian state tv service, a propaganda outlet of the military, which only purpose is to spew the biggest lies ever to the masses.

U are right if u watch some of the public tv or privet one u will see they are putting every lie they have against brotherhood and calling them terrorist....

watch this video to see how ppl hate anything that called brotherhood or pro morsi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD9kBO_sYeU

there is some blood and other thing so be warn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taAQ7iOy5xY

oh yeah... they start arresting anyone who is calling it's coup even if they aren't from brotherhood

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/05/29/essam-sultan-investigation-commences/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...tatement-by-essam-sultan-before-his-detention

 

[Persona86]

Medics at a nearby field hospital told the BBC they believed about 70% of the casualties were caused by live fire - with many of the victims hit in the chest or head by snipers firing from rooftops.

"They were mostly killed by bullet wounds, especially by snipers, especially in the head. We have nearly cut throats, just like animals," said Doctor Hesham Ibrahim.

Disgusting.

 

[numble]

Obama is sending a Maverick™ to try to fix things.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-egypt-protests-usa-aid-idUSBRE96T1BN20130730

Obama asks Republican Senators McCain, Graham to visit Egypt

(Reuters) - President Barack Obama has asked two senior Republican senators to travel to Egypt to meet with its military leaders and the opposition, as Cairo's allies struggle with how to address the turmoil convulsing the country.

Senator John McCain and Lindsey Graham, both members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, hope to travel to Egypt next week, Graham said on Tuesday.


"The president reached out to us, and I said obviously I'd be glad to go," Graham told reporters outside the Senate. "We want to deliver a unified message that killing the opposition is becoming more and more like a coup" and to encourage the military to move toward holding elections.

He said specifics of the trip, including with whom he and McCain would meet, had not yet been worked out.

McCain and Graham, two of the Senate's most influential voices on foreign policy matters, have at times been harsh critics of Obama's foreign policy. The White House has recently been reaching out to them on a range of issues.

U.S. officials have been grappling with how to respond to the situation in Egypt since its elected Islamist president, Mohamed Mursi, was ousted by the military on July 3.

In particular, they have struggled with how to handle the $1.55 billion in mostly military aid Washington sends to Cairo each year. Egypt has long been an important U.S. ally in a tumultuous region and officials in Washington value their ties to its military leaders, many of whom have studied in the United States.

U.S. law bars sending aid to countries in which there has been a military coup, and Obama administration officials have been scrambling to talk about events in Egypt without using the word.

GLOBAL ANXIETY

Mursi is being held in a secret detention facility in Egypt. Catherine Ashton, the European Union's foreign policy chief, on Monday became the first outsider to see him since he was deposed. His fate - and a deadly crackdown by security forces on his supporters - has raised global anxiety about a possible bid to crush Mursi's Muslim Brotherhood.

Senator Rand Paul has introduced an amendment to a Senate transportation funding bill that would end military aid to Egypt under the law banning aid after coups and redirect the money to domestic infrastructure projects.

Senate Republicans discussed how to deal with the amendment during their weekly lunch meeting on Tuesday. It could come to the Senate floor for a vote on Wednesday, although it was not expected to win much support.

The Obama administration has made clear it does not want to make a decision about events in Egypt - or the aid. Obama's Democrats control hold a majority of seats in the Senate.

Several Republicans, including McCain, Graham and Bob Corker, the top Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, also said they thought the situation in Egypt was too fluid for a vote so soon.

"I may come to think we need to cut off aid, but I'd like to go over there and talk to the military and to any members of the government and Brotherhood factions to find out what is going on the ground, and send a clear message to the people in charge of Egypt that there are certain expectations here in America that are bipartisan in nature," Graham said.

Corker said he felt Washington needed to weigh in one way or the other on whether the situation in Egypt was a coup, and look at changing the law if necessary.

"We can't just leave it hanging out there. We are a nation of laws. That's where we need to go," he said. "But now is not the time, September is the time to do after we know the best route forward."

I personally would like Rand Paul's amendment to go through (deny $1.6 billion in military aid and divert it to US infrastructure projects, but I know it's just political showmanship stuff.

I LOL'ed at Senator Graham saying: "We want to deliver a unified message that killing the opposition is becoming more and more like a coup."

 

[Kapsama]

Vice Documentary on the Coup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2yaNhK4PCE (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTfBJ0pGUPs (Part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRgYRhnM0tM (Part 3)

Vice are channel know to be quite secular and liberal in there views but even they were surprised to see how irrational and extreme the liberals are.

Just because the pro-military say they are secular, they are actually the extremist in egypt.
Just because the MB follow Islamic principles, they are the ones dying for democracy.

It's easy for that douche to call these women extreme and irrational, when it's not his civil liberties that are at stake. Those women aren't stupid, they know exactly what they can expect from a Muslim Brotherhood dominated society. Look no further than Taliban era Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

 

[Portugeezer]

Lol when the west intervenes...

 

[Mesoian]

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE.

Interesting times over there...

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

lol

people still gonna defend this coup and this shitty Army???

 

[OttomanScribe]

It's easy for that douche to call these women extreme and irrational, when it's not his civil liberties that are at stake. Those women aren't stupid, they know exactly what they can expect from a Muslim Brotherhood dominated society. Look no further than Taliban era Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

This doesn't follow. The whole thing is that one element that supports the military coup AGAINST the Ikhwan is the Salafi faction in Egypt.

The Ikhwan started out almost a Muslim boy scouts movement, the Salafis are a different kettle of fish altogether. The comparison between Saudi Salafi monarchists, Afghan tribal Pashtun Deobandi militants and Egyptian urban Islamist Sunnis is a long bow to draw.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Counter-revolution almost complete. Wouldn't be surprised if they're waiting for the Ikhwan to try defend themselves the next time something like this happens so they can go "See?? We told you they were all terrorists!" and proceed with a good old purge. They might as well let Mubarak come back.

Authoritarian military-supported neoliberal government. We meet again.

 

[Jburton]

It's easy for that douche to call these women extreme and irrational, when it's not his civil liberties that are at stake. Those women aren't stupid, they know exactly what they can expect from a Muslim Brotherhood dominated society. Look no further than Taliban era Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

You have no idea what you are talking about, you hear Muslim and you jump to the most extreme of conclusions.


Also the majority of the country voted for the Muslim Brotherhood and what they stand for, if that was to be a non secular Egypt then that was the will of the majority.

Overthrowing a democratic President / Government is anti democratic ........ no other way of putting it.

If those who where against the Muslim Brotherhood wanted change then they should have voted for it.

 

[gdt]

70 people good fucking god.

 

[Christine]

It's really sad that more than seventy people died violent deaths in this incident. I think that that should be the most important fact in this situation, but it probably isn't.

 

[Al-Jazz]

It's easy for that douche to call these women extreme and irrational, when it's not his civil liberties that are at stake. Those women aren't stupid, they know exactly what they can expect from a Muslim Brotherhood dominated society. Look no further than Taliban era Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

You obviously havent been paying attention, Saudi Arabia was the first country to congratulate the military coup they rewarded the military after the fact with aid of $5bn.
Whatever your views on the MB are they won the elections fairly, not just 1 election but 5 elections if you include the confidence votes on the referendum voting in their favor the last one being in may with almost 70% going to them

 

[DirtyManos]

If the US were to halt aid to Egypt, who would replace them as the military's beneficiary?

Honest question, I'm interested in the geopolitics at play. Besides having an "ally" in the area for a station to launch influence from, what other factors come into play regarding our aid to Egypt. Does the Suez Canal have any bearing? Proximity to Israel? I'm sure it;s many things in one, but is it the fear someone else will step in the main deterrent from pulling the money?

 

[ISOM]

If the US were to halt aid to Egypt, who would replace them as the military's beneficiary?

Honest question, I'm interested in the geopolitics at play. Besides having an "ally" in the area for a station to launch influence from, what other factors come into play regarding our aid to Egypt. Does the Suez Canal have any bearing? Proximity to Israel? I'm sure it;s many things in one, but is it the fear someone else will step in the main deterrent from pulling the money?

I heard egypt has been getting billions from the saudis or qatars(I forget), but make no mistake. If the US stops giving them money they will still be doing ok.

 

[numble]

If the US were to halt aid to Egypt, who would replace them as the military's beneficiary?

Honest question, I'm interested in the geopolitics at play. Besides having an "ally" in the area for a station to launch influence from, what other factors come into play regarding our aid to Egypt. Does the Suez Canal have any bearing? Proximity to Israel? I'm sure it;s many things in one, but is it the fear someone else will step in the main deterrent from pulling the money?

The over $50 billion of US aid to Egypt is something Israel was able to offer to Egypt as part of the two country's peace treaty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Israel_Peace_Treaty

 

[MisterFalcon]

I heard egypt has been getting billions from the saudis or qatars(I forget), but make no mistake. If the US stops giving them money they will still be doing ok.

Someone will always be there to make sure Egypt does not start starving and fall apart, no one wants a huge nation like that become the new Somalia. The EU announced they will be giving 5 billion in aid about the same time they had to admit they had no idea where their earlier 1 billion for humanitarian aid actually ended up.

http://www.france24.com/en/20121114-europe-union-agrees-euro-billion-aid-package-egypt-morsi

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/06/18/uk-eu-egypt-aid-idUKBRE95H0RE20130618

Like many times before the answer to the question 'why is Egypt such a mess' will be 'because we paid them to be'. Mubarak, the SCAF, the Muslim Brotherhood, they are all free to pocket all the money they want in the knowledge there will be more coming.

 

[cdkee]

err, not to devolve into a religious discussion, but if that's the case why do every Islam nation have the death penalty? Are you saying not only are the leaders wrong, but so are all the Muslims living there for support/allowing such law to exist?

Innocent life, anyway. It doesn't apply to murderers and the like...

 

[Palette Swap]

You have no idea what you are talking about, you hear Muslim and you jump to the most extreme of conclusions.


Also the majority of the country voted for the Muslim Brotherhood and what they stand for, if that was to be a non secular Egypt then that was the will of the majority.

Overthrowing a democratic President / Government is anti democratic ........ no other way of putting it.

If those who where against the Muslim Brotherhood wanted change then they should have voted for it.

Yeah, I'm a rabid secular and this is the only way it can work. If the majority want a religious party to rule let them have it. All this is achieving in the long run is strengthening the case for Islamic parties to rule.

 

[numble]

Yeah, I'm a rabid secular and this is the only way it can work. If the majority want a religious party to rule let them have it. All this is achieving in the long run is strengthening the case for Islamic parties to rule.

And cracking down on them will make them turn radical. The more things change, the more they stay the same...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dalia-mogahed/winning-egypts-long-war-w_b_3655072.html

...

Unless Egypt's military junta decisively corrects its current course, and pursues a peaceful, inclusive and reconciliatory approach to putting Egypt back on a democratic path, it will be feeding rather than draining militants' ideological fuel.

This is because Al Qaeda was conceived in the prisons of Egypt, contrary to conventional wisdom, not the caves of Afghanistan. Gamal Abdel Nassir's torture chambers produced Al Qaeda's intellectual foundation, whose original target was not the United States, but corrupt Arab governments the superpower was seen as propping up. Sayed Qutb, whose writings inspired many militant groups, including Al Qaeda, was radicalized and eventually executed in Nassir's jail. Decades later, Ayman El Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's deputy and chief strategist, turned to militancy in these same confines, and went on to advocate for violence as the only way to correct perceived injustice.

...

 

[MisterFalcon]

Qutb was a real tool long before Nasser imprisoned him.

The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. “Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other.

 

[archnemesis]

Hating on jazz makes you a terrible human being by definition.

 

[MisterFalcon]

In the HuffPo article it's also clever how the writer implies Nasser was a US backed leader by inserting the line how Al Qaida fights US backed regimes between two sentences about Nasser.

 

[Kapsama]

This doesn't follow. The whole thing is that one element that supports the military coup AGAINST the Ikhwan is the Salafi faction in Egypt.

The Ikhwan started out almost a Muslim boy scouts movement, the Salafis are a different kettle of fish altogether. The comparison between Saudi Salafi monarchists, Afghan tribal Pashtun Deobandi militants and Egyptian urban Islamist Sunnis is a long bow to draw.

The pro Muslim Brotherhood protestors in the Vice documentary want Shariah. When has Shariah ever worked out for women? Theocracy is theocracy, no matter the ethnic make up.

You have no idea what you are talking about, you hear Muslim and you jump to the most extreme of conclusions.


Also the majority of the country voted for the Muslim Brotherhood and what they stand for, if that was to be a non secular Egypt then that was the will of the majority.

Overthrowing a democratic President / Government is anti democratic ........ no other way of putting it.

If those who where against the Muslim Brotherhood wanted change then they should have voted for it.

You obviously havent been paying attention, Saudi Arabia was the first country to congratulate the military coup they rewarded the military after the fact with aid of $5bn.
Whatever your views on the MB are they won the elections fairly, not just 1 election but 5 elections if you include the confidence votes on the referendum voting in their favor the last one being in may with almost 70% going to them

Nope I'm Muslim myself. I hear backwards Shariah mongers and jump to the most extreme of conclusions.

Elections decided by slim margins do not give you the right to abolish democracy, establish a theocracy and robb everyone of their human rights. And that's what MB supporters want.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Innocent life, anyway. It doesn't apply to murderers and the like...

by the like do you mean drug trafficker and homosexuals?

 

[Modveil]

With all the blatant lies and disinformation about what is going on it is all but impossible to tell who the hell is right or wrong. Sad day for the culture though in many respects.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The pro Muslim Brotherhood protestors in the Vice documentary want Shariah. When has Shariah ever worked out for women? Theocracy is theocracy, no matter the ethnic make up.

Yeah, and the Salafis want the same, except they imagine Sha'riah in very different ways.


Sha'riah is the path back, an integral of Islam, you are showing your ignorance if you think that the only form of Sha'riah is that understood by the Saudi kings or Talib militants. Theocracy is a confused term, and when we are talking about Egypt has little place in these discussions.

 

[Kapsama]

Yeah, and the Salafis want the same, except they imagine Sha'riah in very different ways.


Sha'riah is the path back, an integral of Islam, you are showing your ignorance if you think that the only form of Sha'riah is that understood by the Saudi kings or Talib militants. Theocracy is a confused term, and when we are talking about Egypt has little place in these discussions.

Well excuse me if I don't subscribe to theoretical theocratic utopias. I go by real world results.

 

[General Choomin]

The pro Muslim Brotherhood protestors in the Vice documentary want Shariah. When has Shariah ever worked out for women? Theocracy is theocracy, no matter the ethnic make up.

When has US made weapons ever worked out for women?

Nope I'm Muslim myself. I hear backwards Shariah mongers and jump to the most extreme of conclusions.

Elections decided by slim margins do not give you the right to abolish democracy, establish a theocracy and robb everyone of their human rights. And that's what MB supporters want.

I don't think you know what words mean. The people who abolished democracy was the military. The people who robbed people of human rights in Egypt was the military. It seems that it isn't what people who voted wanted unless it's the people who didn't win the election.

Anyways, why I would like to hear what you think about this. http://cir.ca/story/egyptian-military-and-police-abuse/107088 . It should be amusing.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Well excuse me if I don't subscribe to theoretical theocratic utopias. I go by real world results.

That doesn't appear to be a response to my post.

 

[MisterFalcon]

When has US made weapons ever worked out for women?

A lot of Korean comfort women were glad US weapons defeated Japan.

 

[Modveil]

A lot of Korean comfort women were glad US weapons defeated Japan.

That would be very true. Not just Korean though. Not at all.

 

[OttomanScribe]

A lot of Korean comfort women were glad US weapons defeated Japan.

Though with the rates of sexual assault in Asia by US troops, the plural of 'women' can be questioned.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Though with the rates of sexual assault in Asia by US troops, the plural of 'women' can be questioned.

What are those rates, just so I can compare them to the Japanese abuses ?

 

[OttomanScribe]

What are those rates, just so I can compare them to the Japanese abuses ?

Hard to get accurate statistics without prosecutions. What would Japanese abuses have to do with them? They usually weren't Japanese women, they were locals liberated.


I recommend Peter Shrijvers groundbreaking work on the subject, very readable for an academic history.

 

[General Choomin]

That line of thought is like saying the soviet union liberated the women of berlin from the nazis. I guess you can sorta make that point but it kinda speaks for itself that you have to reach almost 70 years back to do it.

The point I was trying to make was that a lot of people paint a picture the middle east as a place that the western enlightened nations need to intervene in it save the women there from their savage backwards men. Even if it means using force to destroy and reshape their society. No matter how many men, women, and children get killed because of that. I feel that is what is really barbaric.

 

[Kapsama]

When has US made weapons ever worked out for women?




I don't think you know what words mean. The people who abolished democracy was the military. The people who robbed people of human rights in Egypt was the military. It seems that it isn't what people who voted wanted unless it's the people who didn't win the election.

Anyways, why I would like to hear what you think about this. http://cir.ca/story/egyptian-military-and-police-abuse/107088 . It should be amusing.

Let's cut to the chase. Do you want Shariah in Egypt? And do you think half the people voting for you gives you the right to implement it?

 

[General Choomin]

Let's cut to the chase. Do you want Shariah in Egypt? And do you think half the people voting for you gives you the right to implement it?

Let me explain something to you. I don't really like the Muslim brotherhood. The thing is I like democracy and as well as human rights more then I dislike the Muslim brotherhood.

I also think a lot of the arguments that you are proposing are just reactionary racism using right-wing buzzwords to show how much of an other they are. Please stop trying to demonize democracy and saying people "voted wrong" because you got some inane notion that the government in Egypt is being Islamisized (hilarious since its always given lip service to sharia) when the military junta was backed by salafis.

Either you want the people of Egypt to forever be oppressed so that they don't "vote wrong" or you are for democracy.

 

[archnemesis]

Muslim is not a race and you're currently arguing with a Muslim. Why are you accusing people of racism? Disliking sharia doesn't make you an Islamophobe either since there is nothing irrational about disliking it.

 

[MonkeyKing]

Quote:
The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. “Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other.

You say this like its a bad thing. I'm against this guy, whatever side he's on.

 

[archnemesis]

Egypt's cabinet orders police to end pro-Morsi sit-ins

Egypt's military-backed government has ordered police to end sit-ins by supporters of ousted Islamist President Mohammed Morsi in the capital Cairo.

"The cabinet has decided to take all measures necessary to confront these risks and put an end to them," an official said in a televised statement.

The statement termed the continued rallies "a national security threat".

Three top Muslim Brotherhood leaders have also been referred to court on charges of inciting violence.

The movement's supporters have been staging sit-ins for several weeks since President Morsi was removed on 3 July, after just one year in office.

They have defied previous threats of removal from their sit-in protests, despite deadly clashes with security forces.

'No longer acceptable'

The main protest sit-in is at a square near the Rabaa al-Adawiya mosque in the capital's north-east, where clashes erupted on Saturday in which some 70 people were killed, and in Nahda Square near the main campus of Cairo University.

"The continuation of the dangerous situation in Rabaa al-Adawiya and Nahda squares, and consequent terrorism and road blockages are no longer acceptable given the threat to national security," Information Minister Dorreya Sharaf el-Din said in the televised statement.

He said the police had been tasked to end the demonstrations "within the law and the constitution".

The interim government had earlier warned that any violation of the law would be dealt with "firmly".

The step has appeared to pave a way for the removal of the sit-ins in the two areas, the BBC's Jim Muir says.

A Brotherhood spokesman told the BBC his supporters had no option but to stay put, saying the decision to clear the camps had been taken by a gang that had taken over the state and was trying to cheat the people of their democratic rights.

In another move against the group, Egyptian prosecutors referred Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie, his deputy Khairat al-Shater and senior leader Rashad Bayoum to trial over allegations of inciting the killing of protesters outside of their headquarters last month.

An African Union delegation confirmed on Wednesday that it had met Mr Morsi, who has not been seen in public since being ousted.

He had received no official visitors until Tuesday, when he met EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton who said he was "well".

The ousted leader has been formally remanded in custody at an undisclosed location, according to a judicial order.

He has been accused of the "premeditated murder of some prisoners, officers and soldiers" when he and several Muslim Brotherhood leaders were freed during a breakout at a Cairo prison in January 2011.

He is alleged to have plotted attacks on jails in the uprising that overthrew President Hosni Mubarak.

Mr Morsi is also accused of conspiring with the Palestinian militant group Hamas, which governs the Gaza Strip and has strong links with the Muslim Brotherhood.

He was overthrown by the military after mass rallies in which millions of Egyptians calling for his ouster took to the streets.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23522642

Edit: Also, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/2013731144419285305.html

 

[Karakand]

The point I was trying to make was that a lot of people paint a picture the middle east as a place that the western enlightened nations need to intervene in it save the women there from their savage backwards men. Even if it means using force to destroy and reshape their society. No matter how many men, women, and children get killed because of that. I feel that is what is really barbaric.

The Jacobin spirit endures.

On a related note, I can't say that I'm surprised by the (lack of) activity itt.

 

[numble]

Let's cut to the chase. Do you want Shariah in Egypt? And do you think half the people voting for you gives you the right to implement it?

What do you make of the Salafi Islamist al-Nour party (whose mission is to implement Shariah law in legislation) being part of the coup (they had 25% of seats in elections), and these items in the interim constitution (including Article 1!)?

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/07/09/president-ratifies-constitutional-declaration/

The source of legislation according to article (1) of the declaration is the principals of Islamic Sharia according to the teachings of Sunna.

...

Article (7) ensures freedom of belief to followers of “heavenly” religions (Muslims, Christians and Jews).

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...adli-mansour-makes-constitutional-declaration

And what did the Salafi party al-Nour get for backing the coup, thereby removing critical support from the Brotherhood and ensuring that the revolution (and yes, it was a revolution too) was not simply Islamists vs. non-Islamists? Their favorite article, a complicated formula designed to ensure that the pledge to follow the Islamic Sharia was not a mere platitude, was saved as well.