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[Dunki]

If only I'd made it about religion Dunki. Instead, I made it about people and international borders. You're 'whataboutism' is predictable weak sauce. No one with a modicum of humanity is buying what your selling I'm afraid.

This whole fucking conflict is about Religion and nothing else. Jerusalem is the home of 3 world religions and because of this you have these conflicts. You have Israel finally wanting a place to exist after 3000 years and you have the Islam wanting after Mecca and Medina also Jerusalem and both want the Temple Mount. That is why there is no real solution until one Religon will give up.

Also the people who did not agree with the UN Resolution was the Islam. They do not want to share Jerusalem with Jews

 

[KevinKeene]

Glad you were "forced" to learn about the holocaust. From you post and tone it seems to me like you needed it

Fuck you for insinuating I'm in any way right-leaning or anti-semitic. I used 'force' to emphasize how ww2 and the Holocaust aren't topics that german students can escape. Unlike other countries and their gruesome history.

but very telling that you say the Nazi's "only" killed Jews. I guess Gypsy's, disabled, or any one else deemed undersirable wasn't covered in your school life.

Learn to read. "Only" relates to killing versus treating people as slaves and human objects. It does not relate to the part where I wrote who the nazis killed. The syntax of that sentence was easy to understand.

This is my last posting in this thread. Too much willful ignorance combined with a nasty taste of nationalism. I'm also disappointed that you're on the side of blind Israel apologists, Dunki. Didn't expect that.

 

[Ke0]

Fuck you for insinuating I'm in any way right-leaning or anti-semitic. I used 'force' to emphasize how ww2 and the Holocaust aren't topics that german students can escape. Unlike other countries and their gruesome history.



Learn to read. "Only" relates to killing versus treating people as slaves and human objects. It does not relate to the part where I wrote who the nazis killed. The syntax of that sentence was easy to understand.

This is my last posting in this thread. Too much willful ignorance combined with a nasty taste of nationalism. I'm also disappointed that you're on the side of blind Israel apologists, Dunki. Didn't expect that.

I got what you mean, and I agree. It also helps that Germany doesn't try to romanticise and whitewash their teaching of the horrors of WW2. Like have you read US history books on the Civil War? Or just seen how the civil war is framed in the US, it's really bonkers. Not to mention how the country tends to downplay the entirety of post civil war to civil rights act and how they treated groups of people in between that time (and hell even after) or how that framed/and continues to frame their politics.

I've always respected that Germany doesn't try to shy away from or romanticise their atrocities, and in many ways (upon many) ways makes them inherently a better country than US or UK.

America (and honestly to an extent the UK) live by a motto of "if we don't talk about it it'll go away eventually"

 

[Dunki]

This is my last posting in this thread. Too much willful ignorance combined with a nasty taste of nationalism. I'm also disappointed that you're on the side of blind Israel apologists, Dunki. Didn't expect that.

I am not an Israel apologist. I already said that both side are at fault for the overall conflict. I am just saying that this conflict this week was mostly caused by the Hamas and not Israel. Israel also did some shitty things that are inexcusable but in this case I blame the Hamas and no one else.

 

[Kadayi]

This whole fucking conflict is about Religion and nothing else.

What part of international borders and violation of don't you get exactly? The Internation borders part or the violation part?

Jerusalem is the home of 3 world religions and because of this you have these conflicts. You have Israel finally wanting a place to exist after 3000 years and you have the Islam wanting after Mecca and Medina also Jerusalem and both want the Temple Mount. That is why there is no real solution until one Religon will give up.

How about religion gives up instead? Sure it served its purpose in humanity's formative years and certainly, it still has some relevance as a scholarly subject, but as far as something to live by.....not so much these days, least of all when it leads to people fighting over a scrap of dirt in the middle east because one group contends over the other that in their version of Grimms Fairytales it was given to them by Odin the allfather.

We live on the third rock from the sun, is the outer rim of the Milky Way, in a universe populated by innumerable other galaxies. There is no god. What there is though is the absolute certainty that at some point if we stay put we will as a species face an extinction event, which will only be avoided if we get off our collective asses and move beyond our current gravity well, and fighting over BS because people are too asinine to get beyond their particular flavour of tribalism isn't going to get us any closer.

Also the people who did not agree with the UN Resolution was the Islam. They do not want to share Jerusalem with Jews

Please, enough with the hyperbole. Plenty of countries aren't happy about what the State of Israel has been up to for decades and it's only because the US government has abused their security council veto hundreds of times on Israel's behalf that the UN hasn't intervened already.

I am not an Israel apologist. I already said that both side are at fault for the overall conflict. I am just saying that this conflict this week was mostly caused by the Hamas and not Israel. Israel also did some shitty things that are inexcusable but in this case I blame the Hamas and no one else.

 

[HagglesworthMD]

If you're for the expansion of Israeli only settlements on territory that falls outside of the internationally recognised borders of the State of Israel then I can't see how you could be doing anything other than tacitly approving the ethnic cleansing of the present inhabitants. What's been going on in the occupied territories is in complete violation of UN law and no amount of 'look what we've achieved', 'The Jewish people have suffered so much', 'Whataboutism' or any other well-worn and overused apologist shibboleth is going magically make what's going on in Palestine somehow remotely acceptable to anyone who considers themselves a fully functional member of the human race.

I mean honestly check out how lacking in self-awareness this post is: -



No actual ability to comprehend the fact that when you oppress a people for decades, they're not exactly going to look upon you favourably. When did the Israeli occupation start? 1967. When was Hamas established? 1987

On point. A few years back some members of the Real IRA shot a couple of UK squaddies and a Polish Taxi driver in Northern Ireland. Strangely enough, the UK response wasn't to advance the border south by 10 miles and carpet bomb Cork for two straight weeks afterwards in relatiation. I dare say if it had, however, the US government wouldn't be standing by the UK's right to defend itself.



I think Obama stopping Israel from bombing Iran and kickstarting World War 3 is probably the clincher for that particular sentiment.

Just out of curiosity, and feel free to not answer if you feel I’m prying, but where do you get your information from? I mean when I said I’ve been to Israel 3 times I'm shot down and told my tourist opinions don’t matter so I’m just wondering what makes you a moral authority and expert on this issue? Do you have any real world experience traveling the middle east?

No offence but you really do come across as a smug know it all and blow up when people challenge your point of view.

 

[bigedole]

Fuck you for insinuating I'm in any way right-leaning or anti-semitic. I used 'force' to emphasize how ww2 and the Holocaust aren't topics that german students can escape. Unlike other countries and their gruesome history.



Learn to read. "Only" relates to killing versus treating people as slaves and human objects. It does not relate to the part where I wrote who the nazis killed. The syntax of that sentence was easy to understand.

This is my last posting in this thread. Too much willful ignorance combined with a nasty taste of nationalism. I'm also disappointed that you're on the side of blind Israel apologists, Dunki. Didn't expect that.

You could try making your case with facts and well thought out reasoning instead of emotional vitriol. I like how you call cryptoadam's posts "willful ignorance combined with a nasty taste of nationalism" and "blind Israel apologists" when he has provided more actual data about the situation than anyone else in this thread. You clearly disagree with him, try actually making and supporting a point instead of just ignoring what he has to say and writing it off as something beneath you to address.

 

[llien]

I agree with you that nothing justifies ethnic cleansing. But I completely disagree on the land grabbing. Attacking another country comes with possible risks and rewards, and losing land is one of the fair risks IMO.

Israel's population is in fullthrottle nationalism mode. Arabs are underlings. West Bank AND Gaza are merely Israel, temporarily populated with some "arabs", but the government is working on it.

This is the reality. All the "but when you attack, I can annex parts of your territory" is nothing but excuses.

You start a war and there will be consequences.

Most wars with neighbors where started by Israel. Most notably the 1967 one, which ended up with even more ethnic cleansing/land grabbing.

I don't know what this BS has to do with...

loaded with links article on a well known subject from wiki is "BS" to you, a way to go.

 

[HagglesworthMD]

Israel's population is in fullthrottle nationalism mode. Arabs are underlings. West Bank AND Gaza are merely Israel, temporarily populated with some "arabs", but the government is working on it.

This is the reality. All the "but when you attack, I can annex parts of your territory" is nothing but excuses.


Most wars with neighbors where started by Israel. Most notably the 1967 one, which ended up with even more ethnic cleansing/land grabbing.


loaded with links article on a well known subject from wiki is "BS" to you, a way to go.

I'll ask you the same question as I asked another poster, do you have any real world experience traveling the middle east? Saying Israel's population is in fullthrottle nationalism mode.. So you've actually been there?

 

[Kadayi]

Just out of curiosity, and feel free to not answer if you feel I’m prying, but where do you get your information from?

I'm well read and well lived. Suck it up I guess.

I mean when I said I’ve been to Israel 3 times I'm shot down and told my tourist opinions don’t matter so I’m just wondering what makes you a moral authority and expert on this issue?

Because it's an irrelevance. What you may have done, has zero bearing on the moral question of whether Israel is justified in engaging in ethnic cleansing, because it's not a morally acceptable act by any measure regardless of whose doing it at the end of the day. The very fact that you seem to think there is some wriggle room on this subject, is just outright disturbing.

No offence but you really do come across as a smug know it all and blow up when people challenge your point of view

 

[HagglesworthMD]

I'm well read and well lived. Suck it up I guess.



Because it's an irrelevance. What you may have done, has zero bearing on the moral question of whether Israel is justified in engaging in ethnic cleansing, because it's not a morally acceptable act by any measure regardless of whose doing it at the end of the day. The very fact that you seem to think there is some wriggle room on this subject, is just outright disturbing.

Disappointing. Thought you'd have some actual real world experience but you're just another know it all on the internet that has to post an oh so clever gotcha gif in every post.

 

[llien]

A "joke" about recent events:

it reads: "50000 arabs from Gaza are trying to attend the opening of US embassy, but are getting rejected. 45 have received a final rejections" (number of dead at the point was 45)

Saying Israel's population is in fullthrottle nationalism mode.. So you've actually been there?

I read local articles and have a bunch of classmates, of some many either lived there or currently live there.
I'd ask you to specify exactly which part of my statement you are denying, that in the eyes of Israel's population West Bank is part of Israel, just for now filled with pesky "Arabs" for now?

 

[Dunki]

What part of international borders and violation of don't you get exactly? The Internation borders part or the violation part?



How about religion gives up instead? Sure it served its purpose in humanity's formative years and certainly, it still has some relevance as a scholarly subject, but as far as something to live by.....not so much these days, least of all when it leads to people fighting over a scrap of dirt in the middle east because one group contends over the other that in their version of Grimms Fairytales it was given to them by Odin the allfather.

We live on the third rock from the sun, is the outer rim of the Milky Way, in a universe populated by innumerable other galaxies. There is no god. What there is though is the absolute certainty that at some point if we stay put we will as a species face an extinction event, which will only be avoided if we get off our collective asses and move beyond our current gravity well, and fighting over BS because people are too asinine to get beyond their particular flavour of tribalism isn't going to get us any closer.

I am totally with you. I think Religion is the most used reason for conflicts/wars in the past and in the future. There is nothinng that caused more wars through the history of mankind. But I also see it very realistically that you can not get rid of it. What we can do however is completely separate the State and Religion and make it a private matter nothing else. This goes also for wearing Hijabs crosses in state financed jobs like teacher, welfare worker etc.

But even then you can not just ignore the religion of both involved in this conflict.

 

[Kadayi]

Disappointing. Thought you'd have some actual real world experience but you're just another know it all on the internet that has to post an oh so clever gotcha gif in every post.

And yet despite these petulant comments, you couldn't refute one actual word of what I said.

But even then you can not just ignore the religion of both involved in this conflict.

Not when it comes to the borders. That's international law. They're defined and no about of bullish denial by the State of Israel under the Umbrella of US veto changes that fact.

 

[VAL0R]

Frankly, the Arabs are lucky Israel ever returned a single grain of sand won in defensive warfare. The US almost certainly wouldn't if our neighbors used neighboring lands to launch attack after attack.

 

[HagglesworthMD]

And yet despite these petulant comments, you couldn't refute one actual word of what I said.

Not when it comes to the borders. That's international law. They're defined and no about of bullish denial by the State of Israel under the Umbrella of US veto changes that fact.

I'm not addressing anything you have said because I do not value your opinion. You couldn't give me any examples of why I should take your opinion seriously so to me you are just another random person behind a computer pretending they know how to solve all the world problems.

You're probably a student like llien, living in an echo chamber of young people who think they have all the worlds problems figured out and anyone who doesn't agree with them doesn't deserve to be heard.

Thanks for the cool gif I guess?

 

[Kadayi]

I'm not addressing anything you have said because I do not value your opinion. You couldn't give me any examples of why I should take your opinion seriously so to me you are just another random person behind a computer pretending they know how to solve all the world problems.

You're probably a student like llien, living in an echo chamber of young people who think they have all the worlds problems figured out and anyone who doesn't agree with them doesn't deserve to be heard.

Thanks for the cool gif I guess?

Pathetic.

 

[anaslexy]

This whole fucking conflict is about Religion and nothing else. Jerusalem is the home of 3 world religions and because of this you have these conflicts. You have Israel finally wanting a place to exist after 3000 years and you have the Islam wanting after Mecca and Medina also Jerusalem and both want the Temple Mount. That is why there is no real solution until one Religon will give up.

Also the people who did not agree with the UN Resolution was the Islam. They do not want to share Jerusalem with Jews

Far from it! The issue is more about land grabbing more than anything else. The currently Israeli territory belonged to Palestinians who had been living there for thousands of years. The UN forced them to give up their land to accommodate European Jews and that's why the conflict started. Read up on it a bit more.

P.S. It's not Religon but Religion.

 

[cryptoadam]

Far from it! The issue is more about land grabbing more than anything else. The currently Israeli territory belonged to Palestinians who had been living there for thousands of years. The UN forced them to give up their land to accommodate European Jews and that's why the conflict started. Read up on it a bit more.

P.S. It's not Religon but Religion.

How can you say its not about Religion when 1.5 Billion Muslims all side with the Palestinians and want to fight to "free" Al-Asqa mosque. Don't tell me its because of human rights because I don't see the same thing with Muslims in Syria, or Rohyangi or all the other wars that are going on across the Muslim world.

And I will say the same thing for the Israeli side. Israel and it being the homeland of the Jewish nation plays a role and thats why you see the vast majority of Jews support Israel.

If it was just about land the conflict would of been solved not to long ago. I mean the whole reason why either side wants Jerusalem has 100% to do with religion.

I definitily think you need to read up more on the conflict. Europe didn't force any one to give up land, the Ottomans lost in WW1. Which then went on to create multiple Arab states too. You have been listening to Abbas to much and his neo nazi nonsense about how Israel is just a foreign European colony. The conflict started because the Arabs didn't want to accept any form of compromise with the Jews.

Heck even in 1919 Arabs in Palestine considered themselves as part of Syria and not a distinct Palestinian nation.

 

[cryptoadam]

loaded with links article on a well known subject from wiki is "BS" to you, a way to go.

Because it doesn't dispute what I wrote.

East Jerusalem never exsisted until Jordan illegally stole the land and drew a line in the sand. Since Israel made peace with Jordan and fulfilled UNSC 242 in regards to both those parties the UN can't just make a new city that never was there in history. The UN itself never even proposed dividing the city. So what outside of an illegal occupation it never recognized what does it base the division of the city on? That the OIC and 3rd world block has an automatic majority on any resolutions it can pass? Just like passing a Zionism is racism resolution.

Jerusalem has had a Jewish plurality since the mid 1800's. It always had a Jewish population for over 2000 years.

 

[llien]

Jordan illegally stole the land

Jesus.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I'd like to throw in my two cents and say that I think what gets lost in the mix with this conflict is the American Evangelical Christian factor.

Evangelical Christians believe the state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and that Israel is key to the apocalypse, the end of the world as we know it, which Evangelical Christians believe is God's will and therefore can't be prevented, in fact many believe the sooner it happens the better.

So it's in their interests to actively sow discord in the region, not to create peace, Trump loves the Evangelical base because they're one of the few groups that support him completely, so he's done stuff like declaring Jerusalem to be the capital to appeal to them.

 

[cryptoadam]

Jesus.

Whats wrong with that statement?

 

[zumphry]

I'd like to throw in my two cents and say that I think what gets lost in the mix with this conflict is the American Evangelical Christian factor.

Evangelical Christians believe the state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and that Israel is key to the apocalypse, the end of the world as we know it, which Evangelical Christians believe is God's will and therefore can't be prevented, in fact many believe the sooner it happens the better.

So it's in their interests to actively sow discord in the region, not to create peace, Trump loves the Evangelical base because they're one of the few groups that support him completely, so he's done stuff like declaring Jerusalem to be the capital to appeal to them.

yeah and lol if you think evangelicals actually care about Jewish people

 

[cryptoadam]

I'd like to throw in my two cents and say that I think what gets lost in the mix with this conflict is the American Evangelical Christian factor.

Evangelical Christians believe the state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and that Israel is key to the apocalypse, the end of the world as we know it, which Evangelical Christians believe is God's will and therefore can't be prevented, in fact many believe the sooner it happens the better.

So it's in their interests to actively sow discord in the region, not to create peace, Trump loves the Evangelical base because they're one of the few groups that support him completely, so he's done stuff like declaring Jerusalem to be the capital to appeal to them.

And on the flip side you have the extremist Muslims who support Palestinians full stop and want to liberate Al Asqa.

2 sides to the same coin.

 

[Dunki]

I'd like to throw in my two cents and say that I think what gets lost in the mix with this conflict is the American Evangelical Christian factor.

Evangelical Christians believe the state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and that Israel is key to the apocalypse, the end of the world as we know it, which Evangelical Christians believe is God's will and therefore can't be prevented, in fact many believe the sooner it happens the better.

So it's in their interests to actively sow discord in the region, not to create peace, Trump loves the Evangelical base because they're one of the few groups that support him completely, so he's done stuff like declaring Jerusalem to be the capital to appeal to them.

Two Problems if we go with Religion.

Evangelic extremist exist but they are very very few. Islamic extemist on the other hand exist in masses especially in the middle east. And for both relgion the Middle east is Key point for the apocalypse

The similarity with Christian eschatology lies in a portrayal of the “end times.” Christ and an anti-Christ appear during a final battle, in which the forces of God encounter the forces of Satan, leading to a final victory. But as one might expect, the Christian and Islamic scenarios differ remarkably in the details.
In the final days, Muslim scholars hold, Jesus comes again. But this is the Muslim version of Jesus – Isa Al-Maseeh, who just happens to fit the description of the “false prophet” described in Revelation as performing miraculous signs and being worshipped. This Muslim “Isa” (unlike what Muslims allege to be “distortions” of Jesus in the New Testament) was just one of the last in a series of prophets, all of whom testified to the future coming of Muhammad and God’s final revelation. Filled with zeal for Islam, at the end, Isa Al-Maseeh will descend and destroy all crosses, convert Christians from the most abominable of all sins against Allah (Jesus claiming to be the Son of God), and kill all Christians and others who refuse to convert to Islam.
There will also be an anti-Christ – Ad-Dajjal in the Muslim version. He will claim to be the Messiah, but is a liar. He will become the charismatic leader of the Jews, followed by Jews and women, but will finally be slaughtered by the Muslim Jesus.

Now its getting interesting:

The final apocalyptic battles will take place north of Israel in the land of Magog (Rev. 20:7) during the reign of the final caliph, the Mahdi (the rough Muslim equivalent of the pope), who will rule over all of Islam. The Mahdi will wear a crown and ride a white horse, matching the description in Revelation. (6:2) And with the help of Isa Al-Maseeh (the Muslim Jesus) will defeat Dajjal (the Muslim anti-Christ), resulting in a world where Islam finally is the only religion, and all other religions have been banished from the face of the earth.

And this is exactly the region Muslims wants to occupy. This is what Palestinians want.

 

[Kenpachii]

Only solution, we need to build space ships and get planets where everybody can live there own lives with there own religions and there own rules.

Then one day, they can all trade and work together.

World is getting too small.