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Egypt police kill 70+ Muslim Brotherhood protesters in 2nd mass killing in 3 weeks

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numble

Member
I think this deserves a thread--the other latest Egypt thread was about an ultimatum prior to the event. Even the interim Vice President, Mohamed ElBaradei, has condemned the use of force, but the interim President Adly Mansour, seems to have given the military expanded powers to deal with civilians.

My personal position is that 4 days of protest didn't justify a military coup, I felt that bloodshed was predictable, and I don't think their handling of the situation has given me any confidence, especially holding Morsi incommunicado for the whole month. I don't think the cult of personality that is arising for General Abdel Fattah El Sisi is going to do any favors for any future government (in 4 weeks he has demonstrated that he can overthrow a leader, and also mobilize thousands of protesters to "give him a mandate" while carrying posters of him), especially since the military controls about 40% of the economy.

The US has also slowly moved its position. Initially it was not going to stop F-16 deliveries to Egypt, but it changed course last week and halted shipments.

New York Times:
Crackdown in Egypt Kills Islamists as They Protest
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/world/middleeast/egypt.html?hp&_r=1&

CAIRO — The Egyptian authorities unleashed a ferocious attack on Islamist protesters early Saturday, killing at least 72 people in the second mass killing of demonstrators in three weeks and the deadliest attack by the security services since Egypt’s uprising in early 2011.

The attack provided further evidence that Egypt’s security establishment was reasserting its dominance after President Mohamed Morsi’s ouster three weeks ago, and widening its crackdown on his Islamist allies in the Muslim Brotherhood. The tactics — many were killed with gunshot wounds to the head or the chest — suggested that Egypt’s security services felt no need to show any restraint.

“They had orders to shoot to kill,” said Gehad el-Haddad, a Brotherhood spokesman. The message, he said, was, “This is the new regime.”

In Washington, Secretary of State John Kerry called this “a pivotal moment for Egypt” and urged its leaders “to help their country take a step back from the brink.”

The killings occurred a day after hundreds of thousands of Egyptians marched in support of the military, responding to a call by its commander for a “mandate” to fight terrorism. The appeal by Gen. Abdul-Fattah el-Sisi, who has emerged as Egypt’s de facto leader since the military removed Mr. Morsi from power, was widely seen as a green light to the security forces to increase their repression of the Islamists.

In the attack on Saturday, civilians joined riot police officers in firing live ammunition at the protesters as they marched toward a bridge over the Nile. By early morning, the numbers of wounded people had overwhelmed doctors at a nearby field hospital.

One doctor sat by himself, crying as he whispered verses from the Koran. Nearby, medics tried to revive a man on a gurney. When they failed, he was quickly lifted away to make room for the many others.

With hundreds of people gravely wounded, the toll seemed certain to rise, and by Saturday evening had already surpassed the more than 60 deaths on July 8, when soldiers and police officers fired on pro-Morsi demonstrators.

As the deaths have mounted, more than 200 since the government was overthrown, hopes have faded for a political solution to the standoff between the military and the Brotherhood, whose leaders, including Mr. Morsi, are imprisoned or preparing themselves for jail.

In a televised news conference hours after the clash, Interior Minister Mohamed Ibrahim absolved his men of any responsibility and made no mention of the high death toll. His officers, he said, “have never and will never shoot a bullet on any Egyptian.”

He blamed Mr. Morsi’s supporters for the violence, saying they planned to disrupt traffic on the bridge. “We had to stop them,” Mr. Ibrahim said. The protesters threw rocks and fired weapons, he said, and a large number of officers were wounded, including two who were shot in the head.

Mr. Ibrahim also suggested that further repression was imminent as the authorities prepared to break up sit-ins that thousands of Mr. Morsi’s supporters have held for weeks.

“God willing, it will be dispersed in a way that doesn’t cause many losses,” he said. “But God willing, it must end.”

Mohamed ElBaradei, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate who is vice president in the interim government, added a rare note of support for the Brotherhood from the country’s new leaders, writing on Twitter that he condemned the “excessive use of force” and was trying to “end the standoff in a peaceful manner.”

Mr. Kerry called on Egypt’s leaders to “respect the right of peaceful assembly and freedom of expression” and to open an inclusive political dialogue.

“Over two years ago, a revolution began,” he said in a statement. “Its final verdict is not yet decided, but it will be forever impacted by what happens right now.”

Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel spoke by telephone with General Sisi, urging him to exercise restraint and “take steps to prevent further bloodshed and loss of life,” according to a Pentagon statement.

...

The Guardian:
Egypt: scores killed as army launches offensive against Muslim Brotherhood
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/27/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-morsi-supporters-killed

Egyptian security forces and armed men in plain clothes killed scores of Muslim Brotherhood protesters on Saturday as the brutal and organised crackdown on the Islamist party and its supporters appeared to be gathering pace.

In what is the worst single mass killing in Egypt since the fall of president Hosni Mubarak two-and-a-half years ago, a Brotherhood spokesman said 66 of the party's supporters were shot and killed on the fringes of a sit-in at a Cairo mosque demanding the return of former president Mohamed Morsi, who was deposed on 3 July, and another 61 were "brain dead" on life-support machines. Government officials claim that the number of dead was 65, a death toll greater than the Republican Guards massacre on 8 July that saw 51 killed.

The deaths came as men in helmets and black police fatigues fired on crowds gathered before dawn on the fringes of a round-the-clock sit-in near a mosque in north-east Cairo, Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood movement said.

"They are not shooting to wound, they are shooting to kill," said Brotherhood spokesman Gehad el-Haddad. "The bullet wounds are in the head and chest."

The latest violence came amid the continuing sharp polarisation within Egyptian society that has made the country increasingly ungovernable. Elsewhere on Friday, eight people were reported killed in clashes in Alexandria.

The latest violence was condemned by members of the international community. The head of European Union foreign policy, Baroness Ashton, said she "deeply deplored" the latest deaths, while Britain's foreign secretary William Hague said: "Now is the time for dialogue, not confrontation. It is the responsibility of leaders on all sides to take steps to reduce tensions."

The dead and injured were ferried into a makeshift field hospital near the Rabaa al-Adawiya mosque, where the floor was slick with blood.

In a bizarre episode, most western journalists in the country were invited on a helicopter ride over Cairo's Tahrir Square an hour before the massacre began. After the killings, the ministry of the interior denied it had used live ammunition on demonstrators, despite eyewitness accounts from journalists, including BBC correspondents, who were present during the killings.

"There must have been an injury every minute," said Mosa'ab Elshamy, a photojournalist unaffiliated with the Brotherhood, who photographed the attack for half an hour at around 4am.

"I did not see any Morsi supporters with [firearms] at this point," he added. "I hid behind a tree, and all I saw were Morsi supporters throwing stones, or fireworks, or throwing teargas canisters."

...

BBC:
Egypt minister: Pro-Morsi protesters to be dispersed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23478947

Egypt's interior minister has warned supporters of ousted president Mohammed Morsi that they will "soon" be dispersed from a sit-in in Cairo.

Minister Mohammed Ibrahim said lawsuits filed by residents near a mosque provide legal cover for the clearance.


But thousands of protesters insist they will stay at Rabaa al-Adawia mosque.

The area was the scene of bloody clashes between security forces and protesters, with doctors estimating that more than 100 people were killed.

The health ministry puts the death toll lower, at 65.

Mr Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood has blamed the military for the deaths, accusing soldiers of shooting to kill.

The government has denied this, insisting security forces only used tear gas, not live rounds.

The BBC's Quentin Sommerville in Cairo says this appears to be untrue given the severity and number of injuries.

Dr Hesham Ibrahim described scenes at the hospital as like "hell"
Tear gas, shotgun pellets and bullets were all in evidence during the fighting, he says.

Meanwhile, two leading figures who backed the army's removal of Mr Morsi, on 3 July, have condemned Saturday's killings.

The Grand Imam of Al-Azhar mosque - the highest Sunni Muslim authority in Egypt - has called for an investigation, while the vice-president of the interim government, Mohamed ElBaradei, said that excessive force had been used.

US Secretary of State John Kerry said in a statement that he was deeply concerned about the recent bloodshed.

"In this extremely volatile environment, Egyptian authorities have a moral and legal obligation to respect the right of peaceful assembly and freedom of expression," he said.

Earlier, a spokesman for EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said she "deeply deplores the loss of life" on Saturday and urged all sides to halt the violence.

'Shooting to kill'
Saturday's clashes, which began before dawn and carried on for several hours, were the most serious bout of violence since Mr Morsi was ousted.

It appears they began after some of the Morsi supporters tried to extend the barricades around their protest site, and the security forces responded.

Ahmed Nashar, a Brotherhood spokesman, witnessed what happened.

"When I arrived, bullets were whizzing past my ears," he told the BBC. "Today was just brutal - people were fired at, with live firearms."

Medics at a nearby field hospital told the BBC they believed about 70% of the casualties were caused by live fire - with many of the victims hit in the chest or head by snipers firing from rooftops.

"They were mostly killed by bullet wounds, especially by snipers, especially in the head. We have nearly cut throats, just like animals," said Doctor Hesham Ibrahim.

...

Washington Post, via Associated Press:
New clashes kill 2 in Egypt as ousted leader’s supporters defiantly hold their ground

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...8f6ad8-f75d-11e2-81fa-8e83b3864c36_story.html

CAIRO — Deadly clashes broke out during funerals of slain supporters of Egypt’s ousted Islamist president Sunday, as the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood urged his supporters to stand fast after more than 70 of them were killed in weekend violence.

Setting the stage for more confrontation, the military-installed interim president gave the prime minister the power to grant the military the right to arrest civilians in what government officials said could be a prelude to a major crackdown on Mohammed Morsi’s supporters or Islamic militants who have stepped up attacks against security forces in the Sinai Peninsula.

...

The worst bout of violence since Morsi’s ouster took place before dawn on Saturday when police and armed men in civilian clothes opened fire on his supporters as they sought to expand their sit-in camp by moving onto a nearby main boulevard.

Authorities conceded that the vast majority of the 72 killed in Cairo were demonstrators, but the Interior Ministry said some policemen also were wounded as the military-backed administration sought to defend the bloodshed.

Officials from Morsi’s Brotherhood and their allies decried what they called a new “massacre” against their side, which occurred only weeks after July 8 clashes with army troops in Cairo that left more than 50 Morsi supporters dead.

Civilians, sometimes with weapons, frequently join police in Cairo demonstrations. In some cases, they appear to be plainclothes police; in others residents who back the security forces.

A video posted Sunday on social networking sites show policemen and men in civilian clothes pointing their rifles at the protesters wearing industrial helmets and homemade body armor and standing behind makeshift barricades.

Another video, posted by the Interior Ministry, shows protesters hurling stones and firebombs at the security forces from behind their barricades. One masked man was shown shooting at the police with what appeared to be a large silver-plated pistol.

The authenticity of the videos could not be independently verified, but they generally conformed with Associated Press reporting.

No army troops were on the scene, but the international community and human rights groups expressed concern that the military had allowed the carnage to occur.

Human Rights Watch said many of those killed over the weekend were shot in the head or chest and the killings took place over several hours. The New York-based group said it spoke to witnesses and reviewed extensive video footage of the events. Medical staff, it said, judged some of the deaths to be targeted killings because the position of the shots would likely result in death.

The clashes broke out hours after millions responded to a call by military chief Gen. Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi to take to the streets in a show of support to provide a mandate for him and the police to tackle violence and “potential terrorism.”

...

Interior Minister Mohammed Ibrahim, who is the only member of Morsi’s former Cabinet to keep his post, accused the pro-Morsi side of provoking bloodshed to win sympathy and suggested that authorities could move against the two main pro-Morsi protest camps: one outside the Rabaah al-Adawiya mosque in eastern Cairo and another in Nahda Square near the main campus of Cairo University.

“I assure the glorious people of Egypt that the police are determined and capable to maintain security and safety to their nation with the support of the sincere sons of the country,” Ibrahim said Sunday during a graduation ceremony at the national police academy. “We will very strongly and decisively deal with anyone who attempts to undermine stability.”

He depicted the two encampments as a danger to the public, pointing to a string of nine bodies police have said were found nearby in recent days. Some had been tortured to death, police have said, apparently by members of the sit-ins who believed they were spies.

“Soon we will deal with both sit-ins,” Ibrahim said.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon also asked security forces to “act with full respect for human rights” and demonstrators to “exercise restraint.”

Catherine Ashton, the EU’s foreign policy chief, was due in Egypt later on Sunday and will meet Egyptian leaders on Monday, according to an official statement issued in Cairo. It will be her second visit to Egypt this month, a sign of the alarm felt in the West over the continuing bloodshed in the country.

The U.N.’s human rights chief Navi Pillay issued also condemned the violence and called for a “credible, independent investigation” into the killings.

“Despite all the warnings, all the calls for restraint, more than 150 Egyptians have died during protests over the past month, not just in Cairo but in other cities as well,” she said. “I fear for the future of Egypt if the military and other security forces, as well as some demonstrators, continue to take such a confrontational and aggressive approach. Supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood have the right to protest peacefully like anyone else.”
 
the biggest shame was that, before all this, Egypt was in the same league as Turkey, Colombia, Vietnam, South Africa, and Malaysia when it came to economic growth.

Now...well...yeah..I'd be surprised if people are still investing there

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/egypt/gdp-growth

5% growth up until 2010. now they're hovering at 2%. Last year it was even worst. Say what you say about Mubarrak, but at least he brought economic and political stability and growth at the expense of certain rights and liberties.
 
In the attack on Saturday, civilians joined riot police officers in firing live ammunition at the protesters as they marched toward a bridge over the Nile. By early morning, the numbers of wounded people had overwhelmed doctors at a nearby field hospital.

That is pretty awful, it looks like there's a lot of hate on all sides of the conflict, and now that the secular/non-extremist faction has the support of the military, some are taking advantage of this.

I still think the coup was a good idea, as I'm sure it'd be the other way around if it hadn't happened - muslim extremists and military forces shooting down members of the secular/non-extremist faction.

You're going to have deaths regardless, but at least with a more secular government it place there's hope for Egypt in the future, which would have under the reign of Morsi descended into depravity as muslim extremists took charge of the nation's destiny.
 
It's amazing how the MB destroyed 80 years of working in the dark in just 1 year of presidency. I don't expect people to sympathize with them especially after saying stuff like its OK if few thousand to 1 million dies for the sake of the greater goal when some protestors where killed during the MB regieme. Their nothing Islamic about the MB except for the name. That said I'm sad for deaths and if the MB really wants what's good for Islam and Egypt they should value human lives more than power, that's what I learned from Islam Human lives are far more important than anything.
 
It's amazing how the MB destroyed 80 years of working in the dark in just 1 year of presidency. I don't expect people to sympathize with them especially after saying stuff like its OK if few thousand to 1 million dies for the sake of the greater goal when some protestors where killed during the MB regieme. Their nothing Islamic about the MB except for the name. That said I'm sad for deaths and if the MB really wants what's good for Islam and Egypt they should value human lives more than power, that's what I learned from Islam Human lives are far more important than anything.

err, not to devolve into a religious discussion, but if that's the case why do every Islam nation have the death penalty? Are you saying not only are the leaders wrong, but so are all the Muslims living there for support/allowing such law to exist?
 

ZiZ

Member
It's amazing how the MB destroyed 80 years of working in the dark in just 1 year of presidency. I don't expect people to sympathize with them especially after saying stuff like its OK if few thousand to 1 million dies for the sake of the greater goal when some protestors where killed during the MB regieme. Their nothing Islamic about the MB except for the name. That said I'm sad for deaths and if the MB really wants what's good for Islam and Egypt they should value human lives more than power, that's what I learned from Islam Human lives are far more important than anything.

aren't the MB supporters the ones that are being killed?
 

zeroOman

Member
That is pretty awful, it looks like there's a lot of hate on all sides of the conflict, and now that the secular/non-extremist faction has the support of the military, some are taking advantage of this.

I still think the coup was a good idea, as I'm sure it'd be the other way around if it hadn't happened - muslim extremists and military forces shooting down members of the secular/non-extremist faction.

You're going to have deaths regardless, but at least with a more secular government it place there's hope for Egypt in the future, which would have under the reign of Morsi descended into depravity as muslim extremists took charge of the nation's destiny.

about u support the coup u must understand that the military is the oldest gov in Egypt no one know what the hell they do with the money they get from the US, or where do they spend the money... every one of them is from the old regime (mubark)..... that why they need to start from there.... the military is the worst thing in Egypt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW00o1Lmigo

then he should have killed anyone who throw Fire Bomb or come near the Heliopolis Palace.... but no he didn't use any force to remove the protester from Heliopolis Palace
 

ZiZ

Member
the MB really need some rebranding, they wouldn't get half the hate they do if they had a name that doesn't sound like a cheap comic book evil organization.

let's not kid ourselves, nothing they did really justifies the coup, the only reason it happened is because the army wanted their power back.
 

Yazan

Member
It's amazing how the MB destroyed 80 years of working in the dark in just 1 year of presidency. I don't expect people to sympathize with them especially after saying stuff like its OK if few thousand to 1 million dies for the sake of the greater goal when some protestors where killed during the MB regieme. Their nothing Islamic about the MB except for the name. That said I'm sad for deaths and if the MB really wants what's good for Islam and Egypt they should value human lives more than power, that's what I learned from Islam Human lives are far more important than anything.

Wait...what?
 

Socreges

Banned
the biggest shame was that, before all this, Egypt was in the same league as Turkey, Colombia, Vietnam, South Africa, and Malaysia when it came to economic growth.

Now...well...yeah..I'd be surprised if people are still investing there

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/egypt/gdp-growth

5% growth up until 2010. now they're hovering at 2%. Last year it was even worst. Say what you say about Mubarrak, but at least he brought economic and political stability and growth at the expense of certain rights and liberties.
Would you bring him back then?
 
the biggest shame was that, before all this, Egypt was in the same league as Turkey, Colombia, Vietnam, South Africa, and Malaysia when it came to economic growth.

Now...well...yeah..I'd be surprised if people are still investing there

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/egypt/gdp-growth

5% growth up until 2010. now they're hovering at 2%. Last year it was even worst. Say what you say about Mubarrak, but at least he brought economic and political stability and growth at the expense of certain rights and liberties.

Those countries are much wealthier than Egypt so it's not really the same thing. Egypt's growth is more comparable to Nigeria.
 

liger05

Member
Just a few weeks ago we had protests in Turkey and the police were heavy handed but nowhere near like what we have seen n Egypt yet it seems to me there was far more of an outcry over those events than what we are seeing in Egypt which is far far worse!!

I still think the coup was a good idea, as I'm sure it'd be the other way around if it hadn't happened - muslim extremists and military forces shooting down members of the secular/non-extremist faction.

There were mass protests when the MB were in power and we did not see people being killed like this. Your speculating!!!

You're going to have deaths regardless, but at least with a more secular government it place there's hope for Egypt in the future, which would have under the reign of Morsi descended into depravity as muslim extremists took charge of the nation's destiny.

Yes cos the Army are doing great job promoting the benefits of a secular government - Kill those who they dont like. Imprison the opposition leaders, return to a police state.

Sounds great
 
I'm amazed by some of these posts trying to justify these massacres.

I still think the coup was a good idea, as I'm sure it'd be the other way around if it hadn't happened - muslim extremists and military forces shooting down members of the secular/non-extremist faction.

Drivel and speculations, there has been countless demonstrations against MB without any deaths.
 

Lamel

Banned
err, not to devolve into a religious discussion, but if that's the case why do every Islam nation have the death penalty? Are you saying not only are the leaders wrong, but so are all the Muslims living there for support/allowing such law to exist?

Well I mean if human lives are most important, and you murder someone, then you're fucked.
 

Showaddy

Member
I find it amazing that my flat-mate is currently sunbathing in Sharm el-Sheikh with a problem while there's people being butchered by the army in another city.

It's just a bit weird.
 

numble

Member
That is pretty awful, it looks like there's a lot of hate on all sides of the conflict, and now that the secular/non-extremist faction has the support of the military, some are taking advantage of this.

I still think the coup was a good idea, as I'm sure it'd be the other way around if it hadn't happened - muslim extremists and military forces shooting down members of the secular/non-extremist faction.

You're going to have deaths regardless, but at least with a more secular government it place there's hope for Egypt in the future, which would have under the reign of Morsi descended into depravity as muslim extremists took charge of the nation's destiny.
I don't see how you can argue there would be similar deaths the other way around, there were days of protests without mass killings. And there's no evidence that the military would've helped the Muslim Brotherhood.

You need to remember that the Salafi Islamist al-Nour party was part of the coup, they secured a pledge for Sharia law and was instrumental in blocking ElBaradei from getting an interim Presidential spot. The coup appears more about power than secularism.
 

Al-Jazz

Neo Member
Vice Documentary on the Coup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2yaNhK4PCE (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTfBJ0pGUPs (Part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRgYRhnM0tM (Part 3)

Vice are channel know to be quite secular and liberal in there views but even they were surprised to see how irrational and extreme the liberals are.

Just because the pro-military say they are secular, they are actually the extremist in egypt.
Just because the MB follow Islamic principles, they are the ones dying for democracy.
 

commedieu

Banned
Vice Documentary on the Coup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2yaNhK4PCE (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTfBJ0pGUPs (Part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRgYRhnM0tM (Part 3)

Vice are channel know to be quite secular and liberal in there views but even they were surprised to see how irrational and extreme the liberals are.

Just because the pro-military say they are secular, they are actually the extremist in egypt.
Just because the MB follow Islamic principles, they are the ones dying for democracy.

2 million+ people didn't have any form of actual democracy though. Can we keep remembering this? Voting, and voting alone isn't democracy when you have people overturning laws to give themselves dictator-like powers.
 

commedieu

Banned
Oh fuck, this is not turning out well..

Whatever we call it, I hope we don't ignore it. The new government is simply killing civilians protesting in the street.

Such a sad state of things. Its pathetic.

With Its Foreign Policy, The Obama Administration Is Turning Hypocrisy Into An Art Form

The U.S. backed military regime in Cairo is killing more supporters of ousted President Mohamed Morsi. Yet Washington continues to proclaim its inability to see a coup, so America’s aid money still flows. The Obama administration is turning hypocrisy into an art form. Unfortunately, the rest of the world is not fooled.

The great foreign policy illusion in Washington is that the U.S. government controls international events. Thus, the administration proclaims that it must continue to hand $1.55 billion annually to the generals in Cairo to preserve its influence. Yet when did America last exercise influence in Egypt?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougban...ration-is-turning-hypocrisy-into-an-art-form/
 

numble

Member
right..

I guess as the USA, we are going to just ignore this.. as we can't call it a Coup.

Well the US doesn't want to make a decision on calling it a coup or not, but it has halted F-16 shipments that it initially promised it would not stop. This was days before the killing.

U.S., in Sign of Displeasure, Halts F-16 Delivery to Egypt

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/w...ers-to-egypt-in-sign-of-disapproval.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — President Obama, in his first punitive response to the ouster of Mohamed Morsi as president of Egypt, has halted the delivery of four F-16 fighter planes to the Egyptian Air Force.

Mr. Obama, administration officials said, wanted to send Egypt’s military-led government a signal of American displeasure with the chaotic situation there, which has been marked by continued violence, the detention of Mr. Morsi and other leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, and a transition that has not included the Brotherhood.


Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel relayed the decision to Gen. Abdul-Fattah el-Sisi, the head of Egypt’s military, a senior official said, and did not say when the Pentagon might reschedule the delivery.

“Given the current situation in Egypt, we do not believe it is appropriate to move forward at this time with the delivery of F-16s,” the Pentagon press secretary, George Little, said Wednesday. He did not cite any specific actions by the Egyptian military.

The White House emphasized that the decision did not have implications for $1.5 billion in American aid to Egypt, which it has said it does not want to cut off for now. The administration is reviewing that aid but has scrupulously avoided referring to Mr. Morsi’s ouster as a coup d’état, which could force its suspension on legal grounds.

In the immediate aftermath of Mr. Morsi’s ouster, the administration said it did not plan to halt the F-16 shipment. But officials said they were disturbed by how events have unfolded since then. Holding up planes is a modest, but unmistakable, symbol of that concern — “an inside fastball to the military,” in the words of a Pentagon official.
 

commedieu

Banned
Well the US doesn't want to make a decision on calling it a coup or not, but it has halted F-16 shipments that it initially promised it would not stop. This was days before the killing.

U.S., in Sign of Displeasure, Halts F-16 Delivery to Egypt

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/w...ers-to-egypt-in-sign-of-disapproval.html?_r=0

We aren't stupid. ObamaCo thinks the world is. It has been clear why they don't want to do anything about this, while people are dying on the streets. Its just pathetic, and as an american I'm ashamed of this all.

I'm sure he was crossing his fingers, as I was, that this would work out. But executing protesters is something that we can not align our self with, this publicly. I mean at least Israel pretend's its more horrible actions are for defense. There is no cover. They are killing these people. This situation is going to get a lot worse, and more people are going to die. They should be cut off. And as usual, we just lose a bunch of money that could have gone towards social programs or food in the USA, but thats business as usual.

I really hope we continue to withdraw support, and publicly condemn the military. Might as well put that military budget to use, if the people can't have any of the money.
 
Yes. This is all what we have been asking for, civilians being killed in the streets. I hate these kind of posts that lump everyone together.

People should have known this was coming in a military coup. But no, Islamism should be defeated at all costs, even at the cost of democracy and political freedoms.
 
Civil War was always inevitable after 2 coups. We all knew that. It's just a shame it had to happen to a country with such amazing history.

Lets just hope as few lives and monuments are ruined as possible. If I wake up and see a big smoking hole in the side of the Great Pyramid of Giza from a stray Tank shell or some shit, I'm gonna be pissed.
 
If not yet I'm willing to bet there will be one soon.

Morsi supporters are in the minority and don't have backing from anyone. If there's a civil war it will be a very quick one. I'm thinking it's going to be mostly long term instability, suicide attacks. Muslims in Egypt are going to become more and more conservative now that Islam is swept under the rug and treated as holy and unquestionable. When Islam was/is political, people are more free to criticize it. Just like in Turkey.
 

sphagnum

Banned
I would say this is a good analysis/reflection on the Egyptian situation from a communist viewpoint:

It is always difficult for socialists in one part of the world to pronounce on events thousands of miles away – at least without a certain degree of hubris and a certain risk of making oneself ridiculous. This applies perhaps in particular for those countries where the political forms and institutions, immediately apparent to outsiders, do not actually reveal much about the internal political and economic stucture: one can think here of Turkey, Pakistan, and the like. In a sense, it can perhaps be said that generally poor countries are effectively more divided than rich ones. This should come as no surprise given the desperation of poverty, the strength of religious divisions in such places, and the nature of class conflict. Sometimes these divisions are relatively clear and transparent to the outside, but often they are not, and even when properly understood reveal nothing much more than the many contradictions that keep such countries in a social and economic trap of poverty and violence. Egypt seems to fit the latter mold.

Nonetheless, I think it can be useful and justified for Western commentators to speak about events there, even if they know neither the country nor the language very well. There are several reasons for this. The first is owing to the political conclusions drawn by the various progressive forces in the West from events abroad, which makes the struggle over how to interpret these events also a struggle over the political outlook locally. Such arguments by proxy are, as I have argued before, often inherently questionable and misleading, but they are frequent. Secondly, the internationalist and cosmopolitan viewpoint that the current age demands and solidarity with people abroad requires a lively interest in their affairs, including in assessing the successes and mistakes of the progressive movements and parties of the places in question – but without thereby implying that some recipe for success exists in this or that office in London or Chicago. Such certainties are exactly the domain of the world improving free traders in the international economic organizations, and their all-knowing charity has done immeasurable harm. Rather, our perspective should be to see what the events and politics abroad look like to us, and what we can learn from them rather than to telling people far away what to do. But of course any intellectual independence also requires the courage to identify and comment on a mistake when one sees one, even if it is just to unleash a discussion on strategy. Due to its relation to ongoing events, such a strategic discussion can be infinitely more fruitful than overly abstract and general chatter about ‘workers’ parties’, ‘united fronts’ and so forth. But this, too, requires to obtain as much knowledge as possible for an outsider about the place in question, and a critical sifting of the writings and actions of the people on the ground.

All this being said, it is clear that the biggest current topic of this kind is the military coup in Egypt, which has supplanted the ongoing demonstrations in Turkey and Brazil and the slow collapse of Greece in the attention of the Western left. The deposing by military coup of President Morsi, who had not been in power for more than a year, following what may well be the largest political demonstrations in world history against the same President (its turnout counted in the tens of millions) – this is a series of events of global significance, everyone agrees. However, it has promptly split much of the opinion of the left abroad, as it has done for the left locally. Some have argued that the military interposing itself is not really a coup, but simply the consequence of the mass demonstrations against Morsi, which we ought to endorse as the next stage in the Egyptian revolution. Others have defended Morsi as being democratically elected and feel he should have had the opportunity to serve out his term. Against such divisions, and with no particular knowledge of the future or of Egypt, I can only offer what seems to me a useful narrative to understand these events.

As I have written earlier, Egypt since the overthrow of Mubarak seems in an unusual fashion to resemble the 19th century development of what Marx called ‘Bonapartism’, referring to the election and eventual coup of Napoleon III in France following the failed revolutions of 1848. The core properties these cases seem to have in common is that both countries have an increasingly urban and industrial character, but its urban working class population is still at a low level of coherence and organization; that both have a large and undifferentiated, fairly traditional peasantry, constituting a vast passive section of the population; that the political strife between organized parties is a strife within the urban belt, which due to its opposition with the countryside can never fully achieve any legitimacy; that the basis of the nation as a unity is its embodiment in the army, as the one body both town and country are represented in and through which the nation presents itself outward (in Egypt’s case, especially to Israel and the US); that therefore any urban based uprisings or rebellions tend to resolve themselves in a succession of highly unstable provisional governments, ultimately tending to the intervention of a military dictatorship, on a kind of plebiscite basis, by the army representing the ‘national interest’. This is how the sequence of events between 1848 and 1851 was described by Marx in the Eighteenth Brumaire, and this is how it seems to have evolved in Egypt as well.

That’s of course in a sense just a historical narrative. But it shows that it would be quite wrong to say that this military coup is just a passing phenomenon, and of no significance to the progress of the Egyptian revolution (if we adopt that term) itself. On the contrary, I would argue. It is telling if tens of millions of people can gather to overthrow a hated government: this shows an unprecedented mobilization of people in their longer term interests, a victory of popular will (33 million is as clear as that will ever be) in the general against the ward boss politics of local mobilization and general demobilization that characterizes the Muslim Brotherhood. It is precisely the Ikhwan’s ability to mobilize in this push-button fashion, its American style politics of maximizing the friendly turnout and minimizing the enemy turnout, that won it its election (by a hair) a year ago. While the election was as fair as one could reasonably demand, this should not be mistaken for democracy in any substantive sense. Rather the contrary: the exclusion from the economic and political-bureaucratic commanding heights of the vast majority of people and their lack of democratic control over them has, if anything, only increased under Morsi. This was the cause that gathered the millions.

But the military response, to intervene in the heated atmosphere to safeguard Egypt as a whole and to depose Morsi in the name of this people, should be properly seen as a blow not against democracy, but against popular mobilization. It strikes against democracy in the formal sense of the legitimacy of elections and procedure, this is true. But much more importantly, far from completing this stage of the Egyptian revolt, the intervention of the military can only have the purpose of pre-empting its conclusion. The hatred of the demonstrators was against the Muslim Brotherhood, while with most of Egypt (including most Ikhwan supporters) the army had their support as this guarantor of the country. The army and the Brotherhood never got on very well, partially because of the sectarian policies of the MB, but also because of the army’s own vested interest – its control over much of the productive forces of the country, its dependence on American funding and its functioning as a vehicle for American interests, and its associated policy of an uncritical peace with the settler state of Israel.

Insofar, therefore, as the popular mobilization could only be fulfilled by overthrowing the Brotherhood’s rule, this achievement is rendered meaningless if it is done by the army on behalf of the army, rather than by the popular movement on its own behalf. This movement is itself a somewhat ad hoc anti-Morsi coalition, but it is precisely the process of its working out of its own political conflicts that could make it clear and transparent where the real oppositions of interests are. The army intervention, by robbing it of this opportunity, clarified the army’s role for the Brotherhood and its supporters, but not for anyone else, nor does it permit the continuation of the popular mobilization that allowed it to act in the first place. The result is therefore no different than if Ahmed Shafiq had defeated Morsi in the first elections, and the policy of ‘a pox on both your houses’ remains just as valid.

In a certain sense, this outcome is perhaps even the worst of the options. So many polities in the MENA region have been under various kinds of tyrannical rule for so long, and their peoples the subject of manipulation, intimidation, and mobilization on sectarian grounds so systematically, that nothing would be healthier for it than an opportunity to truly work out its politics in practice. The endless military coups and monarchical restorations prevent any kind of transparency to appear about who the classes of the society are, what the real opposition of interests is, and what political meaning each of the various parties and groups has in practice. These, however, are just precisely the only merits of liberal democracy in its purely formal sense: that it allows these to be shown ad oculos. It is no wonder then that the political consciousness of this region since colonial rule has so often been in the form of conspiracy theory and forms of small group terrorism. (In fact, the Brotherhood’s depiction of the coup in Egypt as the work of shadowy Christian conspiracies only shows this once more.)

From this vantage point, the elections in Egypt were a very meaningful step forward, as it allowed not just the first real vote in the country, but also in so doing clarified the strength of the various groups and their oppositions. As it turned out, Egypt is split more or less evenly between the left, the Brotherhood, the Islamists, and the liberal-army-nationalist faction. Given the opportunity, the mobilizations and conflicts of each of these groups will no doubt develop further; one could imagine a split in the Army-liberal coalition, currently represented by Mohammed El-Baradei. The purpose of these elections from our viewpoint is not to give unlimited respect and legitimacy to the ward bosses of the Ikhwan, but to respect their unintended effect, namely to strengthen the process of popular political mobilization. In the longer run, such a process is the only possible way for the left to win, anywhere. That the various factions were able to unite and gather tens of millions against the Brotherhood is a great next step in this development. But a military coup is the simple assumption of power over and against this popular movement, to ensure the continuity of large sections of Egypt’s traditional political economy and foreign policy, heading off the more throughgoing challenge the opposition movement would have implied – whatever the positions of the faction leaders. It is therefore totally reactionary.

In fact, because of its clarifying effect, it would be better for Morsi to have sat out his entire term and suffer the wrath of the ballot box over a period of four years than for the Brotherhood to be quelled by soldiers after just one. If the popular movement and its well-wishers want the Egyptian revolution to succeed, they must demand and hope that the opposition movement will now in turn clarify its position against the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, and overthrow them in turn. Then the Brotherhood period can be legitimately considered drawn to a close. As it stands, Egypt has the worst of both worlds – it has neither the political process of liberal democracy, nor the victory of popular mobilization that would give it a more substantive form. All it has is generals in the pay of the United States, playing each faction against the other while hiding that it is itself a faction, the expression of Egypt’s incomplete revolution – just like Napoleon III. In that case, it took 19 years and a crushing defeat in war for Bonapartism to go. Let’s hope Egypt can do this faster.

http://mccaine.org/2013/07/08/military-coup-in-egypt/#more-1336
 

Angry Fork

Member
People should have known this was coming in a military coup. But no, Islamism should be defeated at all costs, even at the cost of democracy and political freedoms.

reservoir_dogs-worlds_smallest_violin.gif


Authoritarian religious fundamentalists don't get political freedoms.
 
In the attack on Saturday, civilians joined riot police officers in firing live ammunition at the protesters as they marched toward a bridge over the Nile.

Jesus Christ. So essentially civilian hit squads supported by the army.
 
God, i wanted to support this coup as egypt was looking to descend right back into a one person/party control, but jesus this is so sad and there is so little that can be done
 

commedieu

Banned
God, i wanted to support this coup as egypt was looking to descend right back into a one person/party control, but jesus this is so sad and there is so little that can be done

A lot can be done.

But that means the USA will lose its investment in the region. The millions there don't want the brotherhood in power.
 

Angry Fork

Member
Even when democratically voted in by the majority of voters? ............. That's what the people voted for, the Muslim Brotherhood.

And the other half of the country decided to overthrow them. If a constitution is not at the very least secular and fair to everyone, with strong civil liberties, it is illegitimate. We know why Morsi was deposed and it was justified.

Killing pro-morsi protesters is obviously wrong but the defense of the muslim brotherhood through this democracy talk means nothing if those voted in by democracy plan to rule from the quran (or bible, whatever it is, it's not going to be tolerated). I don't think anyone is defending the military killing peaceful protesters, nobody should. I'm just saying the alternative is not to put MB back in power. They forfeited their 'legitimacy' when they put religious shit in the constitution and ignored reasonable, valid arguments against it.
 

Al-Jazz

Neo Member
2 million+ people didn't have any form of actual democracy though. Can we keep remembering this? Voting, and voting alone isn't democracy when you have people overturning laws to give themselves dictator-like powers.

Dont get what your saying, which 2+ million people?
also did you see the documentary?
voting isnt democracy, and coups are the death of democracy.
the army are now insisting that we should 'move on' from all of this like this all happened ages ago. imagine if you for the first time in your life had the right to vote freely and fairly in an election, to wait in line for hours on end just to cast your vote. to then have your vote ripped into pieces right in your face by a military that has no right to interfere in any politics and side with the people who lost the election and ones who didnt bother vote in the first place, because apparently if you dont win an election just organize a block party in tahrir square and you can take it back by force.
In Egypt democracy is just a board game where if your the side thats winning fairly, the opposition just have to flip the board over and start again then blame you for not participating in the game.
 

Al-Jazz

Neo Member
And the other half of the country decided to overthrow them. If a constitution is not at the very least secular and fair to everyone, with strong civil liberties, it is illegitimate. We know why Morsi was deposed and it was justified.

Killing pro-morsi protesters is obviously wrong but the defense of the muslim brotherhood through this democracy talk means nothing if those voted in by democracy plan to rule from the quran (or bible, whatever it is, it's not going to be tolerated). I don't think anyone is defending the military killing peaceful protesters, nobody should. I'm just saying the alternative is not to put MB back in power. They forfeited their 'legitimacy' when they put religious shit in the constitution and ignored reasonable, valid arguments against it.

Absolute non-sense please back-up your accusations. Please tell me which religious shit did they put in the referendum? and bare in mind there was a referendum which means people voted for it to be changed 70% approved for it to be changed,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_constitutional_referendum,_2012

Your a secularist of the worst kind you would rather secularism be forced down peoples throat even when they never voted for it. when people are divided the best way to sort out differences is through the ballot box and proportional representation.

In the UK i would call my self a liberal as i share many views as other liberals in this country, but in egypt i would most definitely not because my views do not resonate with the so called 'liberals' in egypt.
 
reservoir_dogs-worlds_smallest_violin.gif


Authoritarian religious fundamentalists don't get political freedoms.

And the other half of the country decided to overthrow them. If a constitution is not at the very least secular and fair to everyone, with strong civil liberties, it is illegitimate. We know why Morsi was deposed and it was justified.

Killing pro-morsi protesters is obviously wrong but the defense of the muslim brotherhood through this democracy talk means nothing if those voted in by democracy plan to rule from the quran (or bible, whatever it is, it's not going to be tolerated). I don't think anyone is defending the military killing peaceful protesters, nobody should. I'm just saying the alternative is not to put MB back in power. They forfeited their 'legitimacy' when they put religious shit in the constitution and ignored reasonable, valid arguments against it.

The secular/non-secular divide isn't even the main issue here. It's the Mubarak-era elite, which remains deeply entrenched, not wanting to give up their positions of power in Egypt. The fears that Morsi was Hitler come again about to turn Egypt into a fundamentalist state were a product of the relentless propagandizing of the media, most of which is still controlled by Mubarak's cronies. The fact of the matter is the Muslim Brotherhood was far too weak to seize power and transform the country as they pleased considering how deeply entrenched Mubarak-era institutions still are.
 
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