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[Marty Chinn]

GTFO herewith your facts!

Funny how it's facts when it's pro Apple, but overblown, overexagerated, unnatural, not real world situation when it shows fault. Facts when it's Apple saying stuff, but untrue when everyone else Consumer Reports, Ananadtech, Engadget, Nokia, RIM, etc says things.

Why is that?

 

[wolfmat]

Funny how it's facts when it's pro Apple, but overblown, overexagerated, unnatural, not real world situation when it shows fault. Facts when it's Apple saying stuff, but untrue when everyone else Consumer Reports, Ananadtech, Engadget, Nokia, RIM, etc says things.

Why is that?

Both parties have an agenda, so it's hard to judge anything here.

 

[shantyman]

Wow, people are still debating this? Just call it a day people!

 

[Burai]

Wow, people are still debating this? Just call it a day people!

Shhhhhh. I'm quite enjoying watching people who don't own a product angrily demanding a recall for said product.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Funny how it's facts when it's pro Apple, but overblown, overexagerated, unnatural, not real world situation when it shows fault. Facts when it's Apple saying stuff, but untrue when everyone else Consumer Reports, Ananadtech, Engadget, Nokia, RIM, etc says things.

Why is that?

Eh?When did I say either of those things?

I do forget, but please remind me. Honestly, I'm sure I haven't said these things?

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

I wanted Jobs to acknowledge that the problem that I and many other users experienced was real, rather than making an elaborate presentation to try to convince us that all phones behaved this way and that we must be imagining things if we thought different (no irony intended).

I don't think Apple should do a recall, and the offer of free cases is what I've thought they should do from the beginning. However the tone of the conference was condescending and dismissive towards the customers who were actually experiencing the problem and the press who had reported on it. And really, it's that dismissive attitude that has put people up-in-arms since the beginning, with the "hold different" email.

Oh, how thrilling that vindication would be! One would expect to be overwhelmed by the light of justice!

 

[RiskyChris]

This thread is two groups of idiots with flamethrowers in a field of strawmen.

There's a small group of rational people making rational statements. Unfortunately, they are drowned out.

 

[3rdman]

do you have an iPhone 4?

Nope...I was going to get one but with these issues, there is no way. The Samsung Captiva is looking mighty tempting right now...

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

And saying "nobody's perfect" is pretty much the definition of a petulant refusal to apologize.

He didn't say "nobody's perfect." He said Apple's not perfect.

Would "I'm sorry" really have changed your mind if the remedy stayed the same as it is? I really can't believe some of you would be this sensitive over how a company's PR works. Apple are dicks, news at 11.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I think he said "all phones aren't perfect."

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Eh?When did I say either of those things?

I do forget, but please remind me. Honestly, I'm sure I haven't said these things?

Marty has the most frustrating habit of generalizing everyone. It's this weird argument tactic where he backs you into a corner to make you apologize for things other people have said. He's such a weird guy. :/

 

[ant_]

Do you guys think that if I already have a bumper I could just get another one instead of getting a refund? I want an orange one.

 

[elohel]

Shhhhhh. I'm quite enjoying watching people who don't own a product angrily demanding a recall for said product.

lol exactly

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

GTFO herewith your facts!

how are those facts? it's his personal experience.

 

[elohel]

Nope...I was going to get one but with these issues, there is no way. The Samsung Captiva is looking mighty tempting right now...

lol kk

edit: is 3.0 gonna run on it?

 

[Chittagong]

so snapping out of the silliness, I'm genuinely bummed about the situation. I was planning to get the white i4 when available. However now Apple has established that their product has indeed a design fault that requires rubber. So I'm in limbo - first wait to Sept 30 to see if there is a new build of i4. And if nothing comes then, the only option is to wait for a i5 since Apple absolutely will not repeat this design next year. so I need to stay with my 3G and downgrade it back to OS3. Just can't get a product that I know has a defect, even if it doesnt affect me.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

This thread is two groups of idiots with flamethrowers in a field of strawmen.

There's a small group of rational people making rational statements. Unfortunately, they are drowned out.

Or set on fire.

 

[Corwood Rep]

So, honest opinions. Don't try to sell me a particular phone or anything:

I was gonna go get this phone tomorrow, or order it or whatever, because my 3G is a busted ass piece of shit these days and there's no way I'm buying a different phone and I don't want to wait a year for the next model. It's slow as shit and freezes regularly, but it doesn't drop calls. I use my phone with my left hand (although I use a headset for calls that are longer than "I'm on my way home"). In casual use, is this thing gonna cut out and drop calls enough to really piss me off?

I mean, I've heard shit on both sides, some folks saying it's unusable and some folks lying that they're unable to replicate the problem. I don't want any fanboy stuff. I want to know how often people with this phone are actually dropping calls, how easy it is to accidentally enter the death grip, etc.

 

[RiskyChris]

Or set on fire.

:lol indeed!

 

[noah111]

So, honest opinions. Don't try to sell me a particular phone or anything:

I was gonna go get this phone tomorrow, or order it or whatever, because my 3G is a busted ass piece of shit these days and there's no way I'm buying a different phone and I don't want to wait a year for the next model. It's slow as shit and freezes regularly, but it doesn't drop calls. I use my phone with my left hand (although I use a headset for calls that are longer than "I'm on my way home"). In casual use, is this thing gonna cut out and drop calls enough to really piss me off?

I mean, I've heard shit on both sides, some folks saying it's unusable and some folks lying that they're unable to replicate the problem. I don't want any fanboy stuff. I want to know how often people with this phone are actually dropping calls, how easy it is to accidentally enter the death grip, etc.

I asked my mate this very same question, I plan on testing it out myself later. He never noticed anything but he can sometimes replicate the problem, in some cases it goes down a bar, in others it can go down three. Note this is with iOS 4.0.1, he didn't know about it until I asked him. Anyway, he doesn't have any problems with it, but it depends on where you are I guess.

Some people might have a shitty reception to begin with so one bar down or whatever may be dramatic enough for them to drop a call, for example. But like I said from what i've heard (will try myself) the deathgrip isn't something you do on accident in everyday situations, if you are in a decent signal area.

 

[KHarvey16]

So, honest opinions. Don't try to sell me a particular phone or anything:

I was gonna go get this phone tomorrow, or order it or whatever, because my 3G is a busted ass piece of shit these days and there's no way I'm buying a different phone and I don't want to wait a year for the next model. It's slow as shit and freezes regularly, but it doesn't drop calls. I use my phone with my left hand (although I use a headset for calls that are longer than "I'm on my way home"). In casual use, is this thing gonna cut out and drop calls enough to really piss me off?

I mean, I've heard shit on both sides, some folks saying it's unusable and some folks lying that they're unable to replicate the problem. I don't want any fanboy stuff. I want to know how often people with this phone are actually dropping calls, how easy it is to accidentally enter the death grip, etc.

If you don't normally drop calls you likely use your phone in places with good signal. The problem can be completely meaningless in such places and have absolutely no effect on calls. Have you upgraded to the latest iOS 4 version to get the new bar display? That would get you better information.

 

[noah111]

Just watched the conference btw and I think Steve Jobs has a valid point with the 'X marks the spot' in terms of the antenna, not only did they put a black strip there, but the specifically announced to the world what that strip is for. I'm not even personally sure this all would have happened if they hadn't mentioned it/made it visible. Also the fact that there hasn't been a really consistent ratio of press complaints etc to actual AppleCare data etc, is somewhat convincing. Either way i'm sure the iPhone 5 will have a "Revolutionary Antenna System". :lol

 

[Zombie James]

Just watched the conference btw and I think Steve Jobs has a valid point with the 'X marks the spot' in terms of the antenna, not only did they put a black strip there, but the specifically announced to the world what that strip is for. I'm not even personally sure this all would have happened if they hadn't mentioned it/made it visible.

 

[noah111]

http://imgur.com/BjsOS.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
It was on the bottom in that case, no? And obviously it's easier to pull off on the 4 than other phones, whether the antenna's location is more prevalent or not.

 

[Vyer]

So, honest opinions. Don't try to sell me a particular phone or anything:

I was gonna go get this phone tomorrow, or order it or whatever, because my 3G is a busted ass piece of shit these days and there's no way I'm buying a different phone and I don't want to wait a year for the next model. It's slow as shit and freezes regularly, but it doesn't drop calls. I use my phone with my left hand (although I use a headset for calls that are longer than "I'm on my way home"). In casual use, is this thing gonna cut out and drop calls enough to really piss me off?

I mean, I've heard shit on both sides, some folks saying it's unusable and some folks lying that they're unable to replicate the problem. I don't want any fanboy stuff. I want to know how often people with this phone are actually dropping calls, how easy it is to accidentally enter the death grip, etc.

It's going to depend entirely on the signal in your area. If it's really bad, the drop will likely affect you. I think if it's any way decent, you should be okay.

Of course, if you were planning on a case, it will probably affect you even less.

Other issue is proximity sensor, though apple is said to be working on a fix.

Everything else is great.

 

[tokkun]

He didn't say "nobody's perfect." He said Apple's not perfect.

Well, I interpret this slide to be saying that, but whatever.

Would "I'm sorry" really have changed your mind if the remedy stayed the same as it is? I really can't believe some of you would be this sensitive over how a company's PR works. Apple are dicks, news at 11.

It's not so much "I'm sorry", I just would have liked to get a response that seemed honest and forthright, rather than dissembling. I'm actually on-board with Gruber, in that I wouldn't have minded if they just said "This is a design trade-off of having an external antenna. We know it presents a unique problem, but we think the pros outweigh the cons." As an engineer, I can respect an answer like that.

And just in case this isn't clear, what I've been criticizing is simply the PR aspect of it. I do think that free bumpers was the right business decision and have been saying for a while now in these threads that I think the iPhone 4 is a great phone and that I don't think the antenna flaw should be a dealbreaker for most people.

 

[giga]

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

So, honest opinions. Don't try to sell me a particular phone or anything:

I was gonna go get this phone tomorrow, or order it or whatever, because my 3G is a busted ass piece of shit these days and there's no way I'm buying a different phone and I don't want to wait a year for the next model. It's slow as shit and freezes regularly, but it doesn't drop calls. I use my phone with my left hand (although I use a headset for calls that are longer than "I'm on my way home"). In casual use, is this thing gonna cut out and drop calls enough to really piss me off?

I mean, I've heard shit on both sides, some folks saying it's unusable and some folks lying that they're unable to replicate the problem. I don't want any fanboy stuff. I want to know how often people with this phone are actually dropping calls, how easy it is to accidentally enter the death grip, etc.

I've had the phone since launch day. I'm right-handed, don't use a case, don't have anything close to amazing coverage in the places where I typically use the phone, and tend to completely cover the lower-left seam when I talk. I drop fewer calls than I did on my 3G. The call quality is better. My data in/out is faster.

I make no promises anyone else will have the same experience, but the iPhone 4 easily outperforms my 3G as a phone.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

So, honest opinions. Don't try to sell me a particular phone or anything:

I was gonna go get this phone tomorrow, or order it or whatever, because my 3G is a busted ass piece of shit these days and there's no way I'm buying a different phone and I don't want to wait a year for the next model. It's slow as shit and freezes regularly, but it doesn't drop calls. I use my phone with my left hand (although I use a headset for calls that are longer than "I'm on my way home"). In casual use, is this thing gonna cut out and drop calls enough to really piss me off?

I mean, I've heard shit on both sides, some folks saying it's unusable and some folks lying that they're unable to replicate the problem. I don't want any fanboy stuff. I want to know how often people with this phone are actually dropping calls, how easy it is to accidentally enter the death grip, etc.

In all honesty, I have yet to experience a dropped call or dropped signal since I got the phone on launch day. Granted, I don't use the phone to talk on the phone that much (crazy) but still haven't had it happen. Not saying its bullshit, as my brother has had some issues with it, but im just speaking for myself. It certainly isn't as "automatic" as some people would have you believe. My advice would be if you are palnning on staying with ATT anyway, just get the thing, try it out and if you have problems take it back and get a 3GS for $100 cheaper, or go to ATT and get another smartphone.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Eh?When did I say either of those things?

I do forget, but please remind me. Honestly, I'm sure I haven't said these things?

I was taking your statement as you were implying that people were dismissing the fact it can happen to other phones, which nobody is saying. But it's funny to see you defend that angle of it without defending the fact that people are dismissing people who do have the problem. How many people are claiming its blown out of proportion, or see I told you it was nothing type argument? So if I took your statement in the wrong meaning, I apologize, but it certainly gives the implication that Apple is in the right and others are in the wrong when you stand by that angle.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Can't get speeds to decrease with a death grip on the top, sides, back, and bottom of my 3G. One would think improving tech and a multi million dollar testing room would prevent this in the iPhone 4. The antenna is at the top of my 3G right? Well, the bottom is the same wxdxh. It boils down to a bad case design, not the position of the antenna, IMO. And since they have to do it at the bottom, and your hand naturally goes there when browsing the internet, all the more reason to change the case design. They had to know this was going on with that testing room. I could see them leaving the kill switch at the top.

 

[Zeppu]

Diarrhea really sucks. I hate it and it makes life miserable what with all the stuff spewing out of my asshole and the burning sensations.

Oh wait, I don't have diarrhea right now, I guess I can't talk bad about it. Sorry.

 

[itxaka]

Diarrhea really sucks. I hate it and it makes life miserable what with all the stuff spewing out of my asshole and the burning sensations.

Oh wait, I don't have diarrhea right now, I guess I can't talk bad about it. Sorry.

All asses have diarrhea. Use a cork, problem solved.

 

[the-iek]

Diarrhea really sucks. I hate it and it makes life miserable what with all the stuff spewing out of my asshole and the burning sensations.

Oh wait, I don't have diarrhea right now, I guess I can't talk bad about it. Sorry.

You should try some figging if you like the feeling.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Diarrhea really sucks. I hate it and it makes life miserable what with all the stuff spewing out of my asshole and the burning sensations.

Oh wait, I don't have diarrhea right now, I guess I can't talk bad about it. Sorry.

Just avoid pooing that way

 

[wolfmat]

Diarrhea really sucks. I hate it and it makes life miserable what with all the stuff spewing out of my asshole and the burning sensations.

Oh wait, I don't have diarrhea right now, I guess I can't talk bad about it. Sorry.

Not satisfied? Just give your ass back! Full refund!

 

[elohel]

Well, I interpret this slide to be saying that, but whatever.



It's not so much "I'm sorry", I just would have liked to get a response that seemed honest and forthright, rather than dissembling. I'm actually on-board with Gruber, in that I wouldn't have minded if they just said "This is a design trade-off of having an external antenna. We know it presents a unique problem, but we think the pros outweigh the cons." As an engineer, I can respect an answer like that.

And just in case this isn't clear, what I've been criticizing is simply the PR aspect of it. I do think that free bumpers was the right business decision and have been saying for a while now in these threads that I think the iPhone 4 is a great phone and that I don't think the antenna flaw should be a dealbreaker for most people.

I wish more people would give input like this lol

explaining where they're coming from or w/e

I really am wondering if they'll hold another one in September

 

[3rdman]

I wish more people would give input like this lol

explaining where they're coming from or w/e

I really am wondering if they'll hold another one in September

Really? I usually appreciate short responses like "lol kk"...Those are the stuff of legends.

 

[Korey]

Can this issue be solved completely by putting some scotch tape over that little line? I'm surprised no third party has stepped up to sell an invisible tiny cover that just covers that one spot for $5 a pop.

And let's be real, that entire conference wasn't Apple taking responsibility, it was them saying:

"We're not perfect*"

and

"We're sorry*"

 

[LCfiner]

Diarrhea really sucks. I hate it and it makes life miserable what with all the stuff spewing out of my asshole and the burning sensations.

Oh wait, I don't have diarrhea right now, I guess I can't talk bad about it. Sorry.

I'm resubscribing to this thread now.

MORE DETAILS PLEASE

 

[Kafel]

OP doesn't contain what has been said during the conf.

What's new ?

 

[D4Danger]

OP doesn't contain what has been said during the conf.

What's new ?

free bumpers for some, miniature American flags for others.

 

[KtSlime]

Can this issue be solved completely by putting some scotch tape over that little line? I'm surprised no third party has stepped up to sell an invisible tiny cover that just covers that one spot for $5 a pop.

And let's be real, that entire conference wasn't Apple taking responsibility, it was them saying:

"We're not perfect*"

and

"We're sorry*"

Apple did take responsibility, but probably not the kind people wanted. People wanted to crucify apple for either fucking up and not properly testing the product before release, or they wanted apple to come clean about knowing releasing a 'flawed' product, which honestly apple would do neither. Apple did in fact test the phone thoroughly, and prior to research into the drop difference delta they got from AT&T they assumed that the call connection quality was superior, therefor not flawed (from an empirically testable stand point). What apple ended up admitting and taking responsibility for was not educating the public. They knew the line could drop bars in low signal zones, they did not realize that the network had so many gaps that there would be a larger percentage of drops due to it ( as found by the stats), and they did not take in account angry bloggers easily finding the spot and telling everyone, and they did not change the algorithm for displaying bars.

Apples mistakes were, not changing the algorithm, pissing off gizmodo, and not warning customers to avoid covering the thin black line. Lack of education is what they took responsibility for, that and not providing enough cases at launch.

They took responsibility for what they could, I would be mad if they lied and said that they messed up on the design, because it is clear they did not. The design is just fine, just different and just more sensitive, as intended.

 

[hyp]

you have somewhat saved this thread from going into the literal shitter.

 

[CharminUltra]

Yay! Thanks to everyone who complained (specially those who don't even own the phone but did anyway), now I'm getting a full refund for my bumper! Not to mention I never had any problems in the first place

Oh yeah. Best. Phone. Ever.

 

[AstroLad]

I would be mad if they lied and said that they messed up on the design

that's kinda subjective though. why would that "lie" make you mad?

 

[bionic77]

Can this issue be solved completely by putting some scotch tape over that little line? I'm surprised no third party has stepped up to sell an invisible tiny cover that just covers that one spot for $5 a pop.

And let's be real, that entire conference wasn't Apple taking responsibility, it was them saying:

"We're not perfect*"

and

"We're sorry*"

Yes a tiny piece of scotch tape does completely solve the problem. My cousin discovered this in the first week or release and I have posted it like a billion times in the official thread.

I am kind of tempted to release some bullshit product that is just rebranded scotch tape cut out to fit the area in question and sell it for 15 bucks. There are 3 million iphone users out there, if I can get 10% of them to buy it...

 

[Blackhead]

Apple did take responsibility, but probably not the kind people wanted. People wanted to crucify apple for either fucking up and not properly testing the product before release, or they wanted apple to come clean about knowing releasing a 'flawed' product, which honestly apple would do neither. Apple did in fact test the phone thoroughly, and prior to research into the drop difference delta they got from AT&T they assumed that the call connection quality was superior, therefor not flawed (from an empirically testable stand point). What apple ended up admitting and taking responsibility for was not educating the public. They knew the line could drop bars in low signal zones, they did not realize that the network had so many gaps that there would be a larger percentage of drops due to it ( as found by the stats), and they did not take in account angry bloggers easily finding the spot and telling everyone, and they did not change the algorithm for displaying bars.

Apples mistakes were, not changing the algorithm, pissing off gizmodo, and not warning customers to avoid covering the thin black line. Lack of education is what they took responsibility for, that and not providing enough cases at launch.

They took responsibility for what they could, I would be mad if they lied and said that they messed up on the design, because it is clear they did not. The design is just fine, just different and just more sensitive, as intended.

... :lol

 

[KtSlime]

that's kinda subjective though. why would that "lie" make you mad?

It is, and mad is probably a stronger word than I should have used, more like disappointed, maybe it would have appeased some people, but even if Apple does bend their truth a bit, or withhold information, I don't feel they have ever actually, intentionally lied. I think it comes down to my view of Jobs, and what he refers to as his 'principles'. Was it bad that Apple didn't come out and say "don't touch this line" to begin with, yeah probably. Did they think that many people would care when all smart phone antenna have some form of signal attenuation and have for years, no probably not. Do they know better now, you bet they probably do.

All in all this is probably a good experience for them, yes it was devastating, and may take some time to build back up 'trust' whatever that even means. But I hope they don't go back to a more conservative antenna, I hope they pursue this technology to it's fullest extent, because I think there is some potential, even if many see the trade-offs as a design flaw. I think the mistake would be for them to say they fucked up with this antenna and to backpedal due to media/gossip bullies, and go back to an internal design. (Which everyone would *still* be mad, because they would have to go back to plastic, and remove the sleek exposed frame/antenna etc)

Charred Greyface: So do you think the design was a blunder, and that they didn't know about the black line i.e. messed up, or do you think they did know, and didn't think people would over-react? Because other than those two options, I don't see what else it could be, other than "Jobs is an evil money-grubbing bastard that would build any piece of crap and sell his own mother to the devil with indian voodoo magic if he could sell the product". Which I think if you look at his/apple's track-record is not the case, they have really good service and products, while not perfect, I would rather deal with their shenanigans then Dell's, or Motorola's.

And as for the gaps in the network, obviously one can not check ever sq. foot of the US, to ask would be ludicrous, and I am almost certain AT&T while not dishonest with Apple, probably aren't quite forthright with their network coverage, dropped call stats.

 

[Ice Monkey]

Testing signal with the bumper on makes very little sense here considering that this is a design issue with an external antenna.

@ice monkey. Take off the bumper and hold it naturally in your right hand. You may lose one bar. Now hold it naturally with your left hand or death grip it with your left hand. You could lose two bars easily or more depending where you are. That weak spot apple talked about is very easy for a left handed person to touch when talking.

That drop is not AT&T problem. That delta is apple's problem. At least with 4.0.1, there won't be a drop from five to one bar since that old five bar signal now shows up as three.

Oh believe me, I know the issue is there. I lose bars without the bumper on.

I was just trying to explain that the whole death grip thing where you squeeze the phone like a crazy person can actually affect the phone even with the bumper on. It even affects my GF's blackberry which I'm assuming was Apple's big point with their conference.