I take it you've never used a smart TV.
In short: they are horrible.
It'd be like saying back in 2007, "I don't think the iPhone is going to do very well -- there are plenty of phones that can access the Internet."
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Apple TV 4: Gaming will be major focus
- Thread starter JCreasy
- Start date
I take it you've never used a smart TV.
In short: they are horrible.
It'd be like saying back in 2007, "I don't think the iPhone is going to do very well -- there are plenty of phones that can access the Internet."
uncelestial
Member
I've owned four. The current Samsung is incredible -- it even has the wiimote-esque onscreen pointer and built-in Playstation Vue/and Now, as well as 4K versions of streaming apps. Apple TV is not going to come close to competing with streaming Playstation games and 4K, sorry.
Pairing with my phone would just get in the way and having extra hardware is redundant and an unneeded expense. If anyone really thinks convergence favors Apple TV they're getting it pretty twisted. USB sticks might have a shot because they're low-profile, and need no extra wires or power outlets, but Apple TV's approach is last decade's streaming solution. Sorry.
Well that depends. I think the AndroidTV ones are decent. Though its taking a bit longer to get more of the apps I'd like.
I imagine the WebOS TVs are also decent.
Most people are not using an expensive Samsung set with the latest Tizen implementation.
The last Samsung smart TV I used was from last year. It was horrible. Slow. The HBO GO app did not work at all. Not sure why. Perhaps they've turned it around.
There are hundreds of millions of TVs in use in the United States alone. Most of them are not smart. If they are, their operating system is probably sluggish, a buggy mess, or lacking in apps.
There's a huge market for streaming smart TV devices. Apple has already sold 25M+ Apple TVs. Google 17M+ Chromecasts, Roku 10M+. Amazon is probably around there (they don't disclose). And it's really just getting started.
Also wouldn't surprise me to see PS Now come to Apple TV.
uncelestial
Member
I wouldn't conflate demand for USB sticks like the Amazon Firestick or Chromecast with demand for set-top boxes. Apple TV slipped to fourth place in this space this year and all set-top-boxes (and sticks for that matter) are on borrowed time while Smart TVs improve. I'm not saying it won't move some units, but Apple TV is not going to be the market disruptor people are assuming. Convergence is a powerful thing and Apple doesn't own lock people into their ecosystem for TV content the way they do for apps, cloud services, and music libraries.
Right now it works well enough for a lot of people as a box to get your iPhone content onto your TV. Even better if you're one of those people who's so invested in the Apple ecosystem that you buy a bunch of movies and TV shows on iTunes. My family members are already gravitating in that direction.
The main draw was going to be the streaming TV subscription service but Apple apparently hasn't fully negotiated that with content producers yet.
I agree.
Why? In terms of functionality, they are basically the same.
Roku 3 and the Apple TV box and the Fire TV box work pretty much the same as the Fire TV stick and the Roku stick, just a little faster. The sticks are cheaper, so it's not surprising that they've sold better.
It's possible that if Google could somehow get every TV manufacturer to use Android TV to power all their TVs going forward, then yes, perhaps Apple TV could be crushed. But so far only three TV makers have signed on to use Android TV and they represent less than 10% of the market.
Samsung and LG and Vizio and all of the big ones are still using their own individual platforms. There's tons of fragmentation and while some might be decent, most of them aren't. Even if your smart TV works well, you're not going to get as many apps.
In 3 or 4 years there will be thousands and thousands of apps for Apple TV. Some you can't even concieve of right now. Will your Samsung TV get them? Maybe. Your Vizio and your LG webOS TV and all the others? Probably not.
Then what about upgrading? Maybe the apps need better hardware? Samsung has their evolution kit idea (which notably costs about the same as the rumored new Apple TV), but what about the other TV OEMs? Most people wait 8-10 years to replace their TV.
uncelestial
Member
Because set top boxes use remotes, use cables, require counter space, and require a power outlet, while sticks are 100% phone controlled, USB-powered, plug directly into HDMI and require no space to use, not to mention being half as expensive.
If you really think the future of apps is in native device capability and not streaming solutions like Playstation Now, more power to you, but honestly, I think you're gonna have a rough time telling people they need to pay $100 for yet another Netflix-playing device just because it can run shit like Angry Birds. They don't even have a cable-cutting TV service like Playstation Vue to tie into.
I just don't think the market for people who want "better than Smart TV and USB sticks but not as a good as console" functionality is very big. Smart TV OSes are getting very good. Set top boxes are like like the Flash players of streaming: needed at one point before the native functionality (HTML in the case of Flash, Smart TV functionality in this case) got good, but starting to be more about profitable proprietary functionality than market need.
LunarMaster
Member
I'm guessing the bigger deal will be the cross platform applications. iCloud with all your music, images, videos, and apps. Games can benefit from iCloud saves so that you can keep playing a game after you get home.,You'll most likely have the ability to receive text and phone calls on your tv (similar to how it currently works with OS X), and expanded interactions between your phone and the Apple TV. It's about time they opened it up developers. Might be cool to play trivia games with friends (where each person uses there phones for answers) or other sort of games where each player has their own Dreamcast VMU style experience. Would also be great if they announce an official button controller, but who knows.
Is the average Smart TV good enough though? I have a Philips Smart TV, and interface wise it's really clever. It's got a gyro air mouse built into the remote (the cursor pops up when you rest your thumb on the "OK" button) and a full qwerty keyboard on the back of the remote. The thing is absolutely unusable though because it's slow as hell, I guess they skimped out on the CPU or something. At this point I'd rather decouple my "smart-ness" from the display the same way I don't want my PC built into my monitor, but maybe I have just had bad experiences.
uncelestial
Member
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hands-on-with-tizen-smart-tv-platform/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/07/hands-on-with-playstation-now-on-a-samsung-smart-tv/
http://support-us.samsung.com/spsn/detail.jsp?ctg_id=201&sub_ctg_id=&live_id=&video_id=4283602935001
Point like a wiimote for apps/web browsing, hook up a DualShock 4 for PlayStation Now.
I understand the sentiment, but the fragmentation is just too great. Get back to me when the Tizen app store is full of apps. I know it has the usual suspects (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, HBO Go) but does it have Showtime? CBS All Access? WWE? Watch ESPN? Funimation? etc. etc.
Take something like Periscope, for example. The Twitter app that lets you record live broadcasts and watch others. They'll probably make a new app for the Apple TV. I doubt you ever get one for your Samsung TV.
Theonik
Member
Honestly, it's a TERRIBLE idea. The advantage of Metal is it allows them to rework their GUI stuff which should be good for battery life, but the situation isn't the same as when they introduced Metal for iOS. For starters, Apple can't get away with a proprietary API on the computer space like they can on phones. They would have been better off trying to get Vulkan support on OSX and iOS in the long-run.
While it is true that OGL had a lot of issues and the tools can be underwhelming especially when compared to DX11 (DX9 was equally horrible) the reason you see this is precisely because developers don't really care about OSX or Linux for the most part. They aren't putting the extra effort for the meagre returns on these ports and they certainly won't start now. If anything Metal makes it worse.
hillsighed
Member
Well, motion control for gaming worked out great for the Roku...
uncelestial
Member
Yes, I have Playstation Vue in my city and it does all of that plus local TV plus in-the-cloud DVR, and all the "usual suspects" are in 4K.
Again, the mistake you're making is thinking that everything comes down to native apps/device capability when cloud services and in-web apps are making all that meaningless.
90% of my taskbar shortcuts in Windows open Chrome apps.
Honestly, if it ever gets any market share, I would wager it does.
Milly Osworth
Member
It's about time the tv screen joins 2015. Fucking around with Chromecast is okish, but not great.
From a technological perspective as a developer, Apple has:
- Gamekit (Game Center)
- Scenekit (3d game framework)
- Spritekit (2d game framework)
- Metal (really good OpenGL alternative)
And with iOS 9:
- GameplayKit (AI framework)
- Replaykit (for gaming videos)
- Model I/O (more 3d rendering improvements)
They are introducing new tech that helps developers make better games.
Also, some games already can play on Apple TV by supporting Apple's AirPlay technology. Streams video to TV while using iPhone or iPad as controller.
- Gamekit (Game Center)
- Scenekit (3d game framework)
- Spritekit (2d game framework)
- Metal (really good OpenGL alternative)
And with iOS 9:
- GameplayKit (AI framework)
- Replaykit (for gaming videos)
- Model I/O (more 3d rendering improvements)
They are introducing new tech that helps developers make better games.
Also, some games already can play on Apple TV by supporting Apple's AirPlay technology. Streams video to TV while using iPhone or iPad as controller.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Thought I'd better mention this: The current Samsung Smart TV UX is actually the result of Samsung already following a market leader, that is, what LG accomplished a year before with webOS. Though I have to say that Samsung's take on things is missing all the cool charm and striking flat design from the design talent at LG's Silicon Valley lab. As you can see here, LG's design is really nice (headed up by Itai Vonshak, who now works at Pebble and revamped their interface and UX for the Pebble Time):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3fUx8wq7d4
Rebooting webOS: how LG rethought the smart TV
Not to belittle Samsung's efforts with Tizen (earlier alpha versions before LG unveiled this new interface were a lot less appealing), I just think it's worth pointing out that LG is the current market leader for a good Smart TV experience, having cracked it back in early 2014, so indeed, Smart TV has had over a year as it is now.
However, while LG's webOS is a great UX for accessing and switching between content and inputs (it simply treats a console as "another app"), I think the lack of a proper native app platform means the UX loses its fluidity once you get into an app, like Netflix, which is the same old clunky HTML5 experience that you get on any device, pointer controls or not. The same goes for Tizen.
It'll be interesting to see Apple's take on it, and I wouldn't dismiss it either as some are. Comparing it to Smart TV isn't the right way to go, it's going up against connected media boxes like the Roku and Fire TV. Here are two of the best written and most well informed pieces on the hardware and what Apple might do with it:
Apple and the TV Market
Apple Is About To Lay Down Its TV Cards
infiniteloop
Member
I have the CTRLi micro which is nice:
There's a full size one too:
There's the Horipad:
And the SteelSeries Stratus XL:
Toadthemushroom
Member
The Apple TV remote should be ripe for games too, so that will be interesting. I wonder if the gyroscopes will allow for pointer-esque aiming and navigation controls, like how Wii Motion Plus and some Wii U games (Splatoon) work without the sensor bar.
My biggest worry is storage. It seems like 16GB will be the amount of NAND onboard, and while that's fine for apps and streaming content, it definitely marginalises big budget traditional games, regardless of what app thinning may accomplish. If you don't give developers a chance to target Apple TV users with these kinds of games on day one, what hope do they have months and years down the line when some sort of state of flux has been established and users aren't used to consuming that sort of content?
When Apple showed a Plants Vs Zombies: Garden Warfare tech demo running on 2013 iOS devices via Metal and PowerVR Series 6 tech, I got excited. Nothing has come about from that since.
My biggest worry is storage. It seems like 16GB will be the amount of NAND onboard, and while that's fine for apps and streaming content, it definitely marginalises big budget traditional games, regardless of what app thinning may accomplish. If you don't give developers a chance to target Apple TV users with these kinds of games on day one, what hope do they have months and years down the line when some sort of state of flux has been established and users aren't used to consuming that sort of content?
When Apple showed a Plants Vs Zombies: Garden Warfare tech demo running on 2013 iOS devices via Metal and PowerVR Series 6 tech, I got excited. Nothing has come about from that since.