ShadowkillXNA
Member
Sony has demoed several games on the Pro which will have extra graphic effects over the base PS4 version.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Are Sony and Microsoft resetting the clock for this gen with PS4 Pro and Scorpio?
- Thread starter family_guy
- Start date
Sony has demoed several games on the Pro which will have extra graphic effects over the base PS4 version.
ShadowkillXNA
Member
You dont know this. No one outside of Microsoft does. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even know for sure what will be in Scorpio.
General Lee
Member
If Scorpio has another Jaguar CPU, it would be fail of epic proportions. 12 GB of GDDR5 with 384-bit bus, 6 TFLOP GPU, and puny netbook cores from 2013, which was already inadequate for the original Xbone One.
The difference in power between Scorpio and Xbox One will be far greater than PS4 and Pro. It makes total sense that eventually MS will have to drop that dead weight, and allow devs to exclude the One but still support Scorpio. I'm not saying this will happen before the launch of PS5 or whatever follows Scorpio, and MS is likely to deny such a plan until people are willing to leave the One in the dust, which is likely to be the case by 2020.
The difference in power between Scorpio and Xbox One will be far greater than PS4 and Pro. It makes total sense that eventually MS will have to drop that dead weight, and allow devs to exclude the One but still support Scorpio. I'm not saying this will happen before the launch of PS5 or whatever follows Scorpio, and MS is likely to deny such a plan until people are willing to leave the One in the dust, which is likely to be the case by 2020.
MilkyJoe
Member
I really dont think they would have waited if that was the case. Didn't Phil say something about an option to bring out a new box this yeah but they wanted to do it properly?
LapinAgile
Member
They need new CPU options to reset the clock. We will get prettier options on the pro but my PC still outperforms it. If people don't already have a PS4 it's a shiny new option for sure but the mandate to keep it in step with the old unit is preventing me and the folks I know with PS4s from diving in.
dr_rus
Member
The problem for them both is that while Jaguar is a bit pants these days even for gaming Zen would be an equally big overkill for gaming so they need something in between and AMD doesn't really have much there unless they're willing to go with power inefficient Steamroller modules.
General Lee
Member
AMD will have Raven Ridge APUs next year that'll have 4 Zen cores of some sort, and those will go for laptops and embedded systems. I'm not sure if those cores will differ architecturally from the desktop FX chips other than in terms of core counts and clockspeeds. Scorpio design will obviously be custom anyways. I don't think anyone's expecting the top of the line 8-core Zen desktop part in Scorpio.
dr_rus
Member
Raven Ridge will likely use the exact same Zen cores as whatever coming to servers in 1Q17. Going with an 4 core CPU of a completely different architecture while maintaining forward compatibility with Xbox One software written for an 8 core mobile CPU can be pretty tricky.
I'm pretty certain that they'll use Jaguars again, maybe OC them by some 50% or so, should allow them to keep the APU complexity and costs down while maintaining full s/w compatibility between Durango / One S / Scorpio. GPUs even on consoles are somewhat hidden behind APIs/drivers while CPU's are fully exposed, with no abstraction layers, CPU code is usually native binary. This makes GPU upgrades and even GPU IHV changes much more likely than CPU changes, even within the same architecture / instruction set family.
Norse
Member
It looks like both are following the PC ....you buy the game and it works on the entire platform but settings are maxed on the faster systems. Now devs can make a game once and it works on new and old gen hardware. Devs won't need as many teams thus cutting Dev costs. I'm suprized it took this long for this to happen. Just beef up the CPU and GPU every 3 or so years and you keep compatibility. Just like our PCs
DarkJedi24
Member
This doesn't make much sense to me. While yes, the Scorpio will have a significant advantage over the Pro power wise, let's put the GPU power delta into perspective.
Since TFLOPS seems to be the preferred metric, the launch PS4 and Xbox One GPUs are at 1.84 TFLOPS and 1.31 TFLOPS respectively. This represents a power delta of ~40% between the two.
Now if we look at the Scorpio and the Pro GPUs, they are 6 TFLOPS and 4.2 TFLOPS respectively. This represents a power delta of ~43% between these two.
I don't see many people trying to claim that the PS4 is a generation ahead of the Xbox One, even when the GPU delta is roughly the same.
dr_rus
Member
This move increase costs if anything and devs certainly can't "make a game once and it works on new and old gen hardware", the need for "Pro patches" on PS4 Pro illustrate this already.
General Lee
Member
I don't see 4 hyperthreaded Zen cores having any problem maintaining forward compatibility in any way. Games might have Jaguar specific optimizations, but Zen cores will run laps around Jaguar anyways.
I don't think the 10W TDP low power parts will be using the same core as the high power designs. They need to make chips that are affordable enough for that market. Just cutting 4 cores won't be enough.
family_guy
Member
Technically any game made for PS4 works on the PS4 Pro without a patch. If you want the extra bells and whistles then you have to do the extra work.
My wonder is this, the Pro comes out soon and the Scorpio in what, another 12 months?
Where do people think that leaves both companies in releasing the inevitable PS5 and Xbox One Two?
Coming to market late for a new gen is not great, but Sony will be able to squeeze people in 2018 and it'll still only have been 2 years since the pro. Ms surely won't do Scorpio in 2017 and then Xbox One Two in 2018 right?
The flop gap between PS5 and Scorpio would surely be too large to ignore it.
Where do people think that leaves both companies in releasing the inevitable PS5 and Xbox One Two?
Coming to market late for a new gen is not great, but Sony will be able to squeeze people in 2018 and it'll still only have been 2 years since the pro. Ms surely won't do Scorpio in 2017 and then Xbox One Two in 2018 right?
The flop gap between PS5 and Scorpio would surely be too large to ignore it.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Who knows what their master plan is. They might announce the first "true next gen" games in 2018 for Scorpio, to undercut Sony's potential next gen console. Classic "this game just wasn't possible on the old system because it's sooo super-awesome!" PR.
Norse
Member
Not when compared to making a 360/ps3 versions and xbone/ps4 versions....that's way more teams working on a game than the new route Sony and ms are using with Scorpio/pro. 2 teams instead of 4.
So they would have two systems within 2 years of each other? Where would they find the logistics for that if they need more than a year and a half to launch Scorpio from announcement, and we know they have been working on it long before announcement?
Also, there is the fact that there is nothing MS could add over Sony in 2018 that would make it more of a deal than a Sony console in 2019 which would still be stronger.
What is the die size of zen vs jaguar? As long as Ms/Sony want to stick with APUs, there will be a desire to use as much surface area as possible for the GPU, and 'enough' space for CPU
The Albatross
Member
I'm expecting a degree of backwards and forwards compatibility with mainline consoles (Playstation and Xbox) from here on out. Not complete backwards or forwards compatibility, but devices, core services, and "enhanced" or "normal" editions of games. At some point I think there will be a reasonable degree of non-compatibility with the older hardware, and like how we've accepted that on phones, tablets, and to a lesser degree, personal computers, we'll accept it on consoles.
I think the concept of 'generation' is going away, at least as we traditionally think of it where you release the hardware once every 5-10 years. I think we'll get more iterative releases and it'll be more about buying into a console's ecosystem than buying a specific revision of the console.
The enthusiast gamer market is so traditionalist and abhorrent to change, though, that it'll take a while for the concept to be accepted. And even as we steadily move towards that future, I think a solid percentage of enthusiast gamers will put their heads in bags and insist that the industry isn't going in that direction, or then, that they'll only support companies that don't go in that direction, and at some point we'll be into that future and most people will realize it isn't as bad as they thought it would be.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a game released at launch on PS4 will still work on the new PS4 Pro hardware... It just won't be optimized for UHD, HDR, and other hardware upgrades? But, like the disc/package will still play without any work by the developer, right?
Nothing? Is Scorpio rumored to not be X86, not run windows kernel, etc?
I think the concept of 'generation' is going away, at least as we traditionally think of it where you release the hardware once every 5-10 years. I think we'll get more iterative releases and it'll be more about buying into a console's ecosystem than buying a specific revision of the console.
The enthusiast gamer market is so traditionalist and abhorrent to change, though, that it'll take a while for the concept to be accepted. And even as we steadily move towards that future, I think a solid percentage of enthusiast gamers will put their heads in bags and insist that the industry isn't going in that direction, or then, that they'll only support companies that don't go in that direction, and at some point we'll be into that future and most people will realize it isn't as bad as they thought it would be.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a game released at launch on PS4 will still work on the new PS4 Pro hardware... It just won't be optimized for UHD, HDR, and other hardware upgrades? But, like the disc/package will still play without any work by the developer, right?
Nothing? Is Scorpio rumored to not be X86, not run windows kernel, etc?
This.
But if it helps the gen last a little longer, I'm very happy with that.
This allows more time for developers to grow into this current generation and make better games before having completely new hardware thrown at them.
If Sony think that some early adopters of PS4 are in the market for an upgrade after 3 years, then they could still bring out a PS5 in another 3 years and bring the early adopters along with them. So ps pro might not need to be forward compatible - but any PS5 would have to be backward compatible so people can bring their increasingly large digital collections with them
The Broker
Banned
PS4 Pro and Scorpio will help alleviate the developing pressure of creating new games for new platforms. In this way the life of the current gen is extended, consumers get new hardware and developers get more time. Win win.
Bitch Pudding
Member
No. The idea is launching Scorpio in 2017 and use that one year until end of 2018 to build up a noteworthy install base. They need that install base to convince 3rd parties to publish "next gen" exclusive games first on Scorpio (later also on PS5 once that arrives). Like they did back in the day with XBOX360. Just image how well a "Next gen Call of Duty edition, only on Scorpio (for now)" would be perceived by their target customers.
And to be clear here, the only reason I think this approach is within the realm of MS' possibilities is because Scorpio is significantly faster than its predecessor. It should be able to deliver even better (looking) games once devs get rid of the legacy platform support.
If that's a good or bad idea is another topic...
I think Sony intends to make a really stark generational leap with the PS5 but it's still a ways off so they used PS4 Pro to keep some of the more enthusiast fan base happy during the wait and to keep the brand looking fresh in the eyes of consumers.
I think they will be very ambitious with PS5
As an aside has there been any reviews or writeups of hands on experience with PSVR with the PS4 Pro? Has anyone been able to give more insight on the upgraded experience
I think they will be very ambitious with PS5
As an aside has there been any reviews or writeups of hands on experience with PSVR with the PS4 Pro? Has anyone been able to give more insight on the upgraded experience
family_guy
Member
The issue with that is OG PS4 will probably be supported for some time to come so it would be trivial for them to keep supporting OG Xbox One. Third parties are not going to make their games exclusive to Scorpio or PS4 Pro when all they have to do is scale down the game to work with the old systems.
Scorpio-exclusive games might be an advantage for Microsoft and people might put up with it since it'll be four years out from Xbox One, but something as big as COD would probably be a game that still runs on your Xbox One or Xbox One S and just gets much nicer graphics settings on Scorpio. It'll probably do the same thing for PS4 Pro. Maybe it'll look a lot better on Scorpio, who knows. Look for first party games to take advantage of being Scorpio exclusive for the first couple years or so.
Games as big as Madden and COD will do forwards compatibility as long as they can regardless of what platform holders mandate. Infinite Warfare is finally gonna be the first COD to leave PS3 and 360 behind. The last PS2 FIFA game was FIFA 14 which came out on three console generations.
AMD decision skipping 10nm to go directly to 7nm make me think a PS5 is a 2020 product. Sony will want to make sure the PS5 is a healthy bit more powerful than the PS4 Pro, and that ain't happening on 14nm. 2020 would also be a perfect time for a "Scorpion Pro" if MS want to go down that route.
Electret
Member
Right now it's looking like 7nm products will be available in 2019. At this point I think both '19 and '20 are on the table for PS5.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I'm not sure how Sony will approach the next decade.
I think Microsoft is planning on Scorpio being powerful enough to be the "base model" Xbox for close to a decade with an architecture they will iterate off of with upgraded models. The price will continue to drop on Scorpio as the base model (kinda like how iPad 2 hung around for so fucking long) to get people into the ecosystem. The beauty of this is a kind of never ending generation where all games can be played whenever.
I'd be surprised if Sony ditched the PS4 for a non BC PS5 while Microsoft is taking their approach.
I think Microsoft is planning on Scorpio being powerful enough to be the "base model" Xbox for close to a decade with an architecture they will iterate off of with upgraded models. The price will continue to drop on Scorpio as the base model (kinda like how iPad 2 hung around for so fucking long) to get people into the ecosystem. The beauty of this is a kind of never ending generation where all games can be played whenever.
I'd be surprised if Sony ditched the PS4 for a non BC PS5 while Microsoft is taking their approach.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
As long as Sony sticks with X86 and especially with AMD there's not a whole lot of reason for the PS5 not to have BC with PS4-era games.
dr_rus
Member
Well, sure, but that's a generation of difference which is only applicable for a year or two of transitional period. With PS4/Pro and XBO/Scorpio we'll have a long period of games being developed for four platforms instead of two. I fully expect most devs to provide not much beyond a resolution bump on Pro/Scorpio as this is the easiest thing to add costs wise.
They work but why would anyone buy PS4Pro to play in the exact same way as on PS4?
4 core Jaguar is 3.1mm^2 on 28nm.
The estimates we have now put 4 core Zen on ~4.9mm^2 on 14nm.
That's about 6,3x larger than Jaguar 4 core module would be on 14nm assuming linear scaling from 28nm which is quite a jump.
It's possible of course as CPU is the minor part of an APU anyway (8 core Zen would be roughly 10mm^2 out of some 250mm^2 APU most of which will be GPU off/cores) but I still feel that Zen would be an overall overkill for a gaming console. The general consensus that Jaguars are slow doesn't mean that we need Core i7 levels of performance in a purely gaming machine.
Norse
Member
That's really only 2 platforms as both are compatible with the older system. Game with run and see faster CPU/GPU and use different drivers and default to higher res, textures etc...same as on PCs. PC games run on multiple generations of CPU and GPU from the same install disc. 1 platform but looks way different depending on your PCs horsepower.
dr_rus
Member
"Compatible" is a misnomer here, the fact that the game will run on both platforms means little in the grand scheme of things where the most resources are being spent on different assets, different rendering paths and separate QA for different versions. Granted, Sony tried to avoid multiplying assets between PS4 and Pro but if MS will add more RAM to Scorpio for example this may lead to severe budgets increases for those making games for both XBO and Scorpio. It will certainly be cheaper than supporting two completely different platforms but it will still be more expensive than supporting only one "current gen" platform.
schwabdizzle
Banned
I dont thing its really extending the Generation. I think PS5 will be out in 2019 due to the Scorpios power.
Microsoft pushed me to PC gaming. Once I can have Forza on PC, I jumped ship. If Xbox Scorpion, or the true successor "if there is one" also has games on PC, I'll stay on PC.
PS4 Pro lost me at lack of 4K Bluray. I will just get all games on PC now and play the PS4 exclusives I want on the original PS4.
If anything these middle consoles are just going to make PC gaming look less daunting.
PS4 Pro lost me at lack of 4K Bluray. I will just get all games on PC now and play the PS4 exclusives I want on the original PS4.
If anything these middle consoles are just going to make PC gaming look less daunting.
killatopak
Member
Nope.
It's a reset if they're a new generation but it isn't. Everything the Pro or the Scorpio could play the One and PS4 could as well.
A reset would only happen on a generational leap.
It's a reset if they're a new generation but it isn't. Everything the Pro or the Scorpio could play the One and PS4 could as well.
A reset would only happen on a generational leap.
Journey
Banned
The same could be said about the PC though, PC is so ahead of consoles, more than ever before in fact thanks to insane advances from AMD and nVidia, in fact it's impossible at this point due to heat and power requirements to surpass or even match a high end PC even at launch, when in the past consoles were ahead for a little while and eventually PCs would catch up, but nope, that's not the case anymore.
So... having said that, what's happening now a days is developers are creating highly scalable engines that use incredible high detailed textures which shine on a high end PC, but can scale back while retaining the artwork and function on consoles as well, so what's going to happen is that these super detailed games will continue to look amazing on PC, they will scale back slightly on Scorpio, more so on PS4 Pro and finally all the way down to XB1PS4 which will have the muddiest look and worse performance.
It will be no different than the launch of PS4/XB1 guys, it doesn't matter that games will work on PS4 and XB1 as well, since that is the case today with PC games scaled back to consoles, they'll just be scaling back much less.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Don't forget the consoles have two 4-core Jaguar CPUs, wouldn't it be feasible to go from 8 Jaguar cores to 4 Zen cores with SMT or even 6 Zen cores without affecting BC?
DagnastyEp
Member
In the market place both PS4 Pro and Scorpio will be competitors, but I feel the way MS treats Scorpio will be much more like it is a new console generation. At least for MS, I don't think they'll will be defined generations as they've done in the past anymore - I don't think there will be full "resets" happening. Instead there will be gradual shifts, as new products are introduced, and older ones phased out, more akin to the mobile/tablet market.
I predict that, unlike the PS4 Pro launch, Scorpio will be accompanied with "launch" games (even though they'll play on XB1), and the messaging and marketing will focus more on it being the next Xbox.
GPU power is just one metric. Scorpio could potentially (depending on CPU) be the first console in quite some time to have a significant advantage in every performance metric over its next closest console competitor. Though I would call Pro and Scorpio as being in the same generation (at least with what we know now).
Is a "big.little" arrangement possible - with a 4 core zen module alongside a 4 core jaguar module? I feel a homogenous CPU setup is much more likely, but a heterogeneous option such as this would help to maintain 8 cpu cores, be more conservative on die space (vs 8 zen cores), and still provide a significant performance boost. That being said, I'm still holding out hope for a full 8 core zen cpu.
Norse
Member
When's the last time devs supported 1 current gen platform? In the past previous generations of hardware were completely different. It appears Sony and MS are changing that this time around.
dr_rus
Member
As I've said, it's possible but the question is - do we actually need Zen CPU performance level in a gaming machine? Games are mostly GPU limited and last time there was a console with an abundance of CPU power (PS3) it was mostly used as a helper for GPU - so why not just make the GPU faster from the start?