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Are Women Too Hard To Animate? Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Honestly, I'll rather hey use male animations for female NPCs than just not including them because "excuses". After all, it's not like males and females walk that differently.
The awkwarness comes simply because the male animations aren't that good for starters.
The awkwardness most definitely is not coming from animations that aren't well made. (One of the few awards Unity won was for animation). Male and women irl don't walk vey differently, but when it comes to animations, specifically walk cycles, they tend to be very distinct, (note:not talking about needing to emphasize hip sway or any of that nonsense). In a lot of cases, the main characters walk cycle tends to be even more distinct, and looks awkward on any other character but them.
 
Compared to her normal walk cycle it's much more awkward. Her body stiffens up as it tries to translate a different walk cycle. To see a women projecting power through stature, look at Evie Frye's walk cycle.

I can see what you are saying, yes. I guess I just feel as though Ubisoft should have been on top of this issue long before Evie. Sorta what Ferr986 was saying I suppose.
 
The awkwardness most definitely is not coming from animations that aren't well made. (One of the few awards Unity won was for animation). Male and women irl don't walk vey differently, but when it comes to animations, specifically walk cycles, they tend to be very distinct, (note:not talking about needing to emphasize hip sway or any of that nonsense). In a lot of cases, the main characters walk cycle tends to be even more distinct, and looks awkward on any other character but them.
Shooters, first and third person, are like the only genre where everyone has the same animations and it doesn't look weird.
 

4Tran

Member
Another good video from Sarkeesian. If a game is going to have generic enemies, there's no reason to exclude women from them. And that their costumes should be suited to the setting. I'd prefer that games that try to hew closer to history stick with historical roles, but games that play fast and loose with history (Assassin's Creed, Dynasty Warriors) should feel free to disregard it.

Honestly, I'll rather hey use male animations for female NPCs than just not including them because "excuses". After all, it's not like males and females walk that differently.
The awkwarness comes simply because the male animations aren't that good for starters.
The only reason that animation works at all is because of the male character's costume. Get him in something else, and it'd look just as silly.
 

mStudios

Member
I haven't watched the video. But women are a little bit harder than men to animate overall (specially 2D). Due to hair variation (make it flow with the girl's movement). Same for the chest, depending on the size. Women have more variation than men overall (Again hair, chest and clothing)
 

Tagavaka

Neo Member
I know the game turned out rather poorly but that didn't lesson my disappointed when I loaded up Brink on my PS3 for the first time and found the character creator only had a male option. At first I thought, ok, they didn't have the budget for multiple animations of the player character and then I see that the character creator had 3 different body type options.

So they had no problem with going in and animating multiple body type animations but only for men.

Also I REALLY dislike when a game has a female soldier or mercenary type and her animation is more buxom beauty and coquettish than someone who looks hard and strong (yes it's fine to have both but women are not given the strong variety very often)

See also: Femshep's unnecessary toothpick arms. Like please don't shy away from giving female soldier or merc type characters some muscles.

I have faith they will do a lot better with Mass Effect: Andromeda but I still disliked this image they released last year. I believe it's supposed to be a design of the male and female Ryder and well the female soldier's armour looks legit and awesome like the male's, I was annoyed they had her in this stance.

MEA_small.png


Why can't women stand strong like the men are allowed to do in games. Why does she have to have her hip cocked out and butt at an angle so her curves are drawn to be in full view, accentuating her femininity. Because god forbid a game is made with a female soldier where her femininity isn't accentuated
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Wasn't the reason for the AC Co-op debacle that everyone sees themselves as the main campaign protagonist? It's not a different mode where you get to choose a character. Everyone sees themselves as the protagonist, and you see your co-op buddies as random male assassins. To have a playable female option in that mode would have meant having a female option at the very beginning of the game, which would have meant doing all voicework and animations twice, especially for cutscenes.

Not necessarily. The game on your machine could display your character as the main campaign protagonist and then other playable characters as other random male and female assassins. After all, I don't think we're canonically supposed to believe that two or three clones of Arno magically showed up during his assassination missions.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I can see what you are saying, yes. I guess I just feel as though Ubisoft should have been on top of this issue long before Evie. Sorta what Ferr986 was saying I suppose.
They likely would've been if they had the time and resources to do so compared to all the other things they were working on. Unity actually has quite a bit of cut content. The criticism seems to have affected WD2 actually. As that game has clothing customization but you always see yourself as the main character, but you can customize your race and gender for how players perceive you online.

Shooters, first and third person, are like the only genre where everyone has the same animations and it doesn't look weird.
That's because animations in shooters are a lot more simple than anything you see in a typical AC game. In a lot of ways they're designed in the most gender neutral way possible.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Will watch later, still trying to digest Home Alone being sexist.
 

4Tran

Member
Why can't women stand strong like the men are allowed to do in games. Why does she have to have her hip cocked out and butt at an angle so her curves are drawn to be in full view, accentuating her femininity. Because god forbid a game is made with a female soldier where her femininity isn't accentuated
Yeah, posing is a huge problem. But because it's less obvious to a casual observer than costume, it's one that fewer people pay attention to and it's one that's hard to describe. Look at that recent Wonder Woman poster and all the people just ignoring the fact that the only part of her body that's highlighted are her breasts.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not necessarily. The game on your machine could display your character as the main campaign protagonist and then other playable characters as other random male and female assassins. After all, I don't think we're canonically supposed to believe that two or three clones of Arno magically showed up during his assassination missions.
The chooses from a pool of different faces for your friends when you go online. But for the sake of immersion and to make it a more social experience, you can see the customization options that your friends chose. That's a better solution than randomization imho.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Yeah, posing is a huge problem. But because it's less obvious to a casual observer than costume, it's one that fewer people pay attention to and it's one that's hard to describe. Look at that recent Wonder Woman poster and all the people just ignoring the fact that the only part of her body that's highlighted are her breasts.
This one?
 

Henkka

Banned
Not necessarily. The game on your machine could display your character as the main campaign protagonist and then other playable characters as other random male and female assassins. After all, I don't think we're canonically supposed to believe that two or three clones of Arno magically showed up during his assassination missions.

Sure, but I think that would've been cold comfort to those who wanted a playable female assassin.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Never heard it before either.

Someone indicated where it came from right after the message you quoted... What is it with people being proud of ignoring something in these types of threads?
 
Oh my god, she did it - 2:50

I'm so glad she addressed this, so many people try and spin female combatants as "triggering" or some shit in an effort to try and exclude them so it's awesome that she has just shut it down.
Exactly, just --bop!-- shut it down in one. :)

Another good video with balanced examples and well explained argument.
 

LordofPwn

Member
Yeah, posing is a huge problem. But because it's less obvious to a casual observer than costume, it's one that fewer people pay attention to and it's one that's hard to describe. Look at that recent Wonder Woman poster and all the people just ignoring the fact that the only part of her body that's highlighted are her breasts.

first thing i noticed when i saw that poster. like Wonder woman looks bad ass but why cant you show her face?
 

nkarafo

Member
The thread is only on ut's second page and the video flat out tells you where it comes from. Why even bother popping in if you're not going to watch the video or read the thread?
Someone indicated where it came from right after the message you quoted... What is it with people being proud of ignoring something in these types of threads?
Sorry, i thought this was supposed to be a "trope".
 

Platy

Member
Or they could've cheaped out and just female models on male animations, which....well looks incredibly awkward.
m4sxafF.gif
What really must have sucked is that the Syndicate devs at that point in time already had the twin mechanic decided and couldn't say anything about it due to NDAs

It is awkward because we never saw women animated that way !

Street Fighter works specialy well with this because ... well ... NOBODY moves like Necalli or Nash and yet the same weirdness is there while the male version looks okay.

I personaly think laura as necalli is AWESOME
 

Jumplion

Member
I know the game turned out rather poorly but that didn't lesson my disappointed when I loaded up Brink on my PS3 for the first time and found the character creator only had a male option. At first I thought, ok, they didn't have the budget for multiple animations of the player character and then I see that the character creator had 3 different body type options.

Yeah, I was hoping she would bring Brink up, especially since "3 quintillion customization options!" was one of their main selling points, and I distinctly remember there being some murmurs of "why are there no women in the game?"

Overall, great video, though it felt relatively short. Was quick, made its points, and covered some extraneous bases for the people who will willfully miss the point.
 
Really great video, her explanation about being an active participant vs a passive one (and about the nuances of sexualization within these) affecting the concept of violence against women was really well done. I've only ever seen that discussed from either a very mansplain-y perspective or just with intent to shut down all discussion by creating a strawman opposition.

Why are some of you replying if you're not going to watch the video or just pick out semantics regarding what is and isn't a trope?
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Haven't watched it, but why would women be harder to animate than multi legged creatures which would have more to consider?

They aren't, its just more work managing multiple animation data-sets as opposed to just a single one. That's essentially where the "more work" trope comes from, but it was always a case of workload volume than gender differences posing problems.
 

fernoca

Member
first thing i noticed when i saw that poster. like Wonder woman looks bad ass but why cant you show her face?
It's a teaser poster of sorts. Is a known cliché of sorts of superhero movie posters.

Since the focus is supposed to be on the silhouette and the armor/colors. Like Superman was his chest with the S, Iron Man 3 was on the multiple costumes in the back and so on.

More and final posters will be released leading to the movie.
 

SOME-MIST

Member
never knew a mode in saints row 3 like that existed since I haven't played a saints row game before, but the video makes me want to check it out
 

Aters

Member
I mean if you go with Team Ninja's route then women are kind of difficult to animate. Other than that I can't see the argument hold in this day and age.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Good topic for a video tbh. The whole "hard to animate women" excuse just reeks of bs :lol.

Edit: After watching this I just have to give Anita some shit. Why on Earth did they go with super ugly footage of SF2 HD? It's an affront to all my sensibilities.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It is awkward because we never saw women animated that way !

Street Fighter works specialy well with this because ... well ... NOBODY moves like Necalli or Nash and yet the same weirdness is there while the male version looks okay.

I personaly think laura as necalli is AWESOME
Games like SF work well when it comes to character model switching since all of the animations are exaggerated and in the case of swapping the animations of the women with the male characters, they look awesome because the male animations weren't designed with sexuality in mind at all. A game with incredibly naturalistic motion captured animation doesn't work as well with model swaps. Especially western games.

Right. But Thread Title specifically says "Are Women Too Hard To Animate?" so i thought that was the main subject.
With the subtitle, "female combatants."
 

Garlador

Member
It is awkward because we never saw women animated that way !

Street Fighter works specialy well with this because ... well ... NOBODY moves like Necalli or Nash and yet the same weirdness is there while the male version looks okay.

I personaly think laura as necalli is AWESOME

Pretty much. Not every girl walks with a sah-shay hip wiggle.

I want to say Silent Hill 3's Heather had a pretty plain normal walk and run cycle. She probably had a more masculine one than Harry did in Silent Hill 1...
 

MrDoctor

Member
Fighting games aren't really the best example for female enemies because they can be seen as a martial arts competition. An exception could be Mortal Kombat with the more extreme violence, though my female friend likes it and I don't see complaints from anyone.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
I haven't watched the video. But women are a little bit harder than men to animate overall (specially 2D). Due to hair variation (make it flow with the girl's movement). Same for the chest, depending on the size. Women have more variation than men overall (Again hair, chest and clothing)

I have been animating for six years, and I never noticed any difference in the difficulty between animating a woman and a man. It all comes down to how you want to design and animate them. I'd have a harder time animating a medieval King, with their large cape and a billion jewelries, than a woman in modern day clothing. Women also do not have more variations than men, men are just as varied as women in appearance and movement. Even the chest can be varied with men (man boobs.)
 
I think there was a thread about female npcs this week?

Anyway , most of the females models are just shrunk male models, except for bubble butt spartans in Halo Reach
 

Tizoc

Member
Lack of female enemies in games, especially non sexualized ones, is a trope, and that's the main subject of the video.
Funnily enough, the one game i remember off the top of my head with sexuallized female enemies is the arcade punisher game
 

mStudios

Member
I have been animating for six years, and I never noticed any difference in the difficulty between animating a woman and a man. It all comes down to how you want to design and animate them. I'd have a harder time animating a medieval King, with their large cape and a billion jewelries, than a woman in modern day clothing. Women also do not have more variations than men, men are just as varied as women in appearance and movement. Even the chest can be varied with men (man boobs.)
I specifically say "A bit harder. Hair, chest and clothing."
If you wanna go for a more natual animation, If the Hair is longer, is more difficult to animate, same for chest. Clothing varies, of course.


I'm talking specifically in 2D Animations, from my experience.


Again, I should've typed for a "regular" human being.

A bit harder/difficult: Not by much, but still harder.
 

Canklestank

Neo Member
I think a lot of the model swapping is just highlighting how ridiculous some of the male animations are in games. It looks just as abnormal on men, we're just used to it. Assassin's Creed, for example, has that weird head forward, slightly hunched over posture. It's a very unnatural way to stand/walk. But if you look at the hips, which is where I expected to see irregularities (due to the different bone structure, not hip-sway), it looks perfectly fine.

By all means developers, use the same walk-cycles/animations for male and female characters, especially if that means the game won't be a sausage fest.

In terms of female enemies, I know she's right, and it's better for female representation, but a part of me doesn't like shooting/hitting female enemies. Similarly, I don't like shooting dogs/wolves in games. But that's more of a personal issue. The fact that shooting/beating/maiming men doesn't bother me probably speaks to how much I've been desensitized to video-game violence in general.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
I specifically say "A bit harder. Hair, chest and clothing."
If you wanna go for a more natual animation, If the Hair is longer, is more difficult to animate, same for chest. Clothing varies, of course.


I'm talking specifically in 2D Animations, from my experience.


Again, I should've typed for a "regular" human being.

A bit harder/difficult: Not by much, but still harder.

And again, in my experience from animating both 2D and 3D, it's not.

Again, it all comes down to what they look like and how you want them to move, this includes in a more natural movement.

Short hair woman with smaller, near non-existent breasts wearing a bikini vs a long hair obese man wearing nothing but shorts. I mean, if we're going to go with the more natural style and animation, I can tell you that obese man is gonna be hard to animate because of fat rolls alone.

Different clothes exist between the genders, some even wear the opposite gender's' clothing, so if a regular man is wearing a dress and a regular woman is wearing suit, the dress is going to be harder to animate regardless who wears it.

To make the my point clear; women are not at all harder to animate, not even a tiny bit, compared to men. It all comes down to how you design them and how you want to move them. Men are just as much capable to have long, extravagant hair just as women are capable of having short and unwavering hair. Men can wear long flowing robes while women can wear a shirt and pants. Natural or exaggerated, both have unlimited potential in design and animation, body, clothes, hair, chest, etc. One is not naturally harder or easier than the other.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I specifically say "A bit harder. Hair, chest and clothing."
If you wanna go for a more natual animation, If the Hair is longer, is more difficult to animate, same for chest. Clothing varies, of course.


I'm talking specifically in 2D Animations, from my experience.


Again, I should've typed for a "regular" human being.

A bit harder/difficult: Not by much, but still harder.
I disagree with this. I mean if you're animating in 3D you're barely gonna be touching the hair during a scene and unless you're talking about anime, the way hair is typically drawn in 2D is just as manageable as it is for male characters. And the breasts rarely ever need to be animated from my experience.

I think a lot of the model swapping is just highlighting how ridiculous some of the male animations are in games. It looks just as abnormal on men, we're just used to it. Assassin's Creed, for example, has that weird head forward, slightly hunched over posture. It's a very unnatural way to stand/walk. But if you look at the hips, which is where I expected to see irregularities (due to the different bone structure, not hip-sway), it looks perfectly fine.

By all means developers, use the same walk-cycles/animations for male and female characters, especially if that means the game won't be a sausage fest.

In terms of female enemies, I know she's right, and it's better for female representation, but a part of me doesn't like shooting/hitting female enemies. Similarly, I don't like shooting dogs/wolves in games. But that's more of a personal issue. The fact that shooting/beating/maiming men doesn't bother me probably speaks to how much I've been desensitized to video-game violence in general.
Well you are playing as an assassin. So you'd assume their walk cycle would reflect that via a walk cycle that emphasizes the silhouette.. Compared to someone like Nathan Drake, or compared to someone like Batman, who's walk emphasizes his size.
 
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