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[ElTorro]

https://twitter.com/AP/status/724253336854237184

No English news site reporting yet. The president's role is largely ceremonial, but the message Austrian voters are willing to send here seems huge.

http://orf.at/stories/2336439/2336440/

(Latest projection, 56.3% of votes counted, 68.1% voter turnout)

Context:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-election-president-idUSKCN0XG0RR

Austrian voters look set to shake the foundations of the centrist coalition government in a presidential election on Sunday and may give yet another boost to the anti-Islam Freedom Party as Europe's migrant crisis rumbles on.

The president plays a largely ceremonial role from offices in the imperial Hofburg palace. But he or she is head of state, swears in the chancellor, has the authority to dismiss the cabinet and is commander in chief of the military.

Members of the center-left Social Democrats and the conservative People's Party have filled the job since it was first put to a popular vote in 1951. The two parties have ruled the nation of 8.7 million in tandem for most of the postwar era.

But Austrians are fed up with political cockfighting, including bickering between Social Democrat Chancellor Werner Faymann and conservative Vice-Chancellor Reinhold Mitterlehner, and appear to be looking elsewhere for their new head of state.

The migrant crisis, which has seen around 100,000 asylum seekers arrive in Austria since last summer, has dominated the campaign from which two front-runners have emerged.

Alexander van der Bellen, a 72-year-old Greens Party veteran, has criticized the government for being too harsh in its treatment of asylum applicants, while right-wing Freedom Party (FPO) candidate Norbert Hofer says it has been too soft.

Hofer got 24 percent support in a recent poll by market researcher OGM, while van der Bellen got 25 percent as his lead over his rival shrinks.

If neither win a majority in the first round on April 24, a run-off vote will be held.

"Presidential elections are considered less important than other elections, and that's why people use them as a way to teach politicians a lesson," said Eva Zeglovits, opinion researcher at the IFES institute.

Hofer, a 45-year-old shooting fan, has called Europe's deal on migrants with Turkey "fatal" and does not want neutral Austria, a major destination for refugees from the Middle East and Afghanistan, to become a land of immigration.

 

[oti]

Lugner got robbed

Spoiler

lol

 

[Lime]

I reaaaaally don't like the direction European nations are heading in. The right-wing turn and flight into the arms of far-right nationalist policies coupled with libertarian ideas of dismantling the welfare state are destroying the Left.

I am still uncertain if this is a similar case of White Flight like in the US with what Mumei mentioned in the Vox article thread - Because this is actually very similar to how a lot of (white) Europeans flee from Left/center parties the last two decades into the more overtly racist parties, which in turn forces the center/left parties to do a sort of arms-race of anti-immigration and racist laws in competition with the straight-up racist ideology of the European right-winged nationalist parties due to populism in politics:

When you look at cross-tabulations, that isn't a "manipulation" of the data, and you shouldn't characterize it that way. It's worth being precise about demographic sub-groups, and the question that we are answering - and I think we've both done less than adequately on that front.

I was presenting the argument that white people - more particularly the white sub-population of the larger demographic group called "working class" - had left the Democratic Party, and that surveys commissioned by the Democratic Party had found that the foremost reason for this rejection were (embarrassingly) racist attitudes by white respondents, specifically anti-black antipathy. Your counterargument was that white voters have not abandoned liberalism, and you posted a survey with information to that effect. I should have stopped you here; whether white voters have abandoned "liberalism" is a different question than whether they have abandoned the Democratic Party. It also broadened the population I was talking about by describing "white people" as opposed to the narrower group of "white people who are working class."

Of course, it is worth discussing how precisely white voters interact with liberalism. For instance, racial ethnocentrism among white voters is associated with support and generosity for liberal programs such as Medicare or Social Security for the elderly, and opposition to and miserliness towards means-tested welfare programs. It might be the case that those white respondents self-label as "liberal" but also hold a more jaundiced view towards certain liberal programs because of the (inaccurate) perception that non-deserving people are more likely to benefit from those programs. It is also the case that the working poor are still quite liberal, but simply don't vote, and that there is a rather unfortunate and disturbing pattern of social distancing on the part of people in the second quintile of income that leads to their dropping support for welfare programs:



And these two patterns (racist attitudes vis-à-vis welfare, as well as social distancing even on the part of people who themselves once benefited from welfare), are (probably) major factors in the lack of support by white voters in that second quintile for the Democratic Party. It might be the case that if all white people voted that the data would be closer to the Pew data, but the white people who aren't voting just so happen to be the ones more likely to support positions held by the Democratic Party.

But be that as it may, your response didn't actually address the argument that I was presenting, and I shouldn't have gone down that rabbit hole without making it clear that I wasn't talking about the same phenomenon. Sorry. :|

 

[Irminsul]

Fun fact: Norbert Hofer is an honorary member of the fraternity "Marko-Germania zu Pinkafeld", which is German-nationalistic and rejects the existence of the Austrian state, favouring a unification with Germany. Yes, they're really old-school.

I really hope this was just a protest vote to show people are fed up and either van der Bellen (ex-Greens) or Griss (Independent) wins in the runoff election.

EDIT: Ah yes, HC Strache, the FPÖ's chairman, says Austrians liked to have "a patron" as the head of state. Yes, "patron", sure.

 

[ElTorro]

To give more context, Hofer's platform is basically "we have to stop the Muslim invasion" (literal quote from the FPÖ's official website).

And by agreeing with that platform, voters are indirectly and likely unknowingly inviting and enabling all the other goodness of right-wing politics. It's something that is happening all over Europe.

 

[Deleted member 245925]

I expected Hofer, Van der Bellen, and Griss to be closer together, but this result is simply shocking. I shudder when I think about the next elections for the national parliament, where the FPÖ will probably be the strongest party. The direction Austria and Europe are heading politically is distressing.

 

[Lime]

To give more context, Hofer's platform is basically "we have to stop the Muslim invasion" (literal quote from the FPÖ's official website).

And by agreeing with that platform, voters are indirectly and likely unknowingly inviting and enabling all the other goodness of right-wing politics. It's something that is happening all over Europe.

Yeah, it's going on everywhere. Is there a really good recent analysis or an article on this right-wing turn?

 

[Bedameister]

why? I don't get it. This makes me sad.

 

[Iokis]

Read about the vote on ORF just minutes ago. Really not happy about how things are shaping up. Can't say I'm surprised though, I was at that the performance of Die Schutzbefohlenen (pro-immigration play)in Vienna that was gatecrashed by a far-right extremist group last week.

 

[Lime]

 

[ElTorro]

Yeah, it's going on everywhere. Is there a really good recent analysis or an article on this right-wing turn?

I don't have an article, but part of the issue has to be the perceived trench warfare between the left-leaning and right-leaning parties over the refugee crisis and how it drowns centrist voices. Much of the left-leaning spectrum in Europe has downplayed or ignored the logistical and cultural challenges ahead out of fear that acknowledging them would lead to a right-wing uprising. On the other hand, right-wing populists have picked the topic up, bemoaned the impending doom of the Western world, mixed it with xenophobic rhetoric and used it virtually exclusively as their platform.

The quote here sums it up.

Alexander van der Bellen, a 72-year-old Greens Party veteran, has criticized the government for being too harsh in its treatment of asylum applicants, while right-wing Freedom Party (FPO) candidate Norbert Hofer says it has been too soft.

Centrist voices appear to be unable to reach the people with more moderate and reasonable agendas. And I think that Merkel, although she has made mistakes, is such a voice who has been unable to communicate the pragmatic necessity of her actions more clearly.

 

[Irminsul]

Well, to be fair, van der Bellen isn't really a good example in your case, because he actually is quite centrist. The Austrian version of Kretschmann, really.

It's just that the government has more or less adopted a FPÖ-like stance in the refugee crisis, that's why even centrist opinions seem to be leftist.

 

[Pamplemousse]

And by agreeing with that platform, voters are indirectly and likely unknowingly inviting and enabling all the other goodness of right-wing politics. It's something that is happening all over Europe.

Maybe if Europe's left addressed the immigration issue, then these things wouldn't happen.

 

[Deleted member 245925]

Updated projections confirm that the runoff will be between Hofer and Van der Bellen. It will be interesting to see who the people who voted for Griss or the candidates of the governing parties will vote for in the runoff. I'm expecting the worst.

 

[ElTorro]

Well, to be fair, van der Bellen isn't really a good example in your case, because he actually is quite centrist. The Austrian version of Kretschmann, really.

It's just that the government has more or less adopted a FPÖ-like stance in the refugee crisis, that's why even centrist opinions seem to be leftist.

Ok. I am not familiar with the specific events and personalities.

Maybe if Europe's left addressed the immigration issue, then these things wouldn't happen.

I agree that much of the left side of the spectrum has dropped the ball here.

 

[Lime]

Maybe if Europe's left addressed the immigration issue, then these things wouldn't happen.

I agree that much of the left side of the spectrum has dropped the ball here.

What does "addressed" entail here? What do you want them to do besides the things they are already doing?

 

[His Majesty]

Yeah, it's going on everywhere. Is there a really good recent analysis or an article on this right-wing turn?

Integration failure and denial of cultural challenges posed by a multi-cultural society. Of which the effects today are clearly visible in the Brussels region for example.

 

[Nivash]

Yeah, it's going on everywhere. Is there a really good recent analysis or an article on this right-wing turn?

The situation is highly complex, involves too many nations and language barriers and the shift has happened (or rather, accelerated) relatively quickly. The media, or even the experts, have caught up fully yet so we're not yet at the point where there is really any coherent narrative on the issue. This is history in action.

Here are a few primers though. From The Guardian in October:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-editorial-europe-lurches-to-the-right-poland

Forbes, June 2014, describing how the tendencies were already obvious long before the refugee crisis hit:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor/2014/06/04/europes-deep-right-wing-logic/#72f195f2241a

Prospect Magazine, February, on the rise of far-right nationalism in Eastern Europe:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/rolling-back-freedom

The Economist, October 2015, again focusing on Poland but also discussing why deeply regressive policies have suddenly turned so popular in such large segments of society.

http://www.economist.com/news/europ...embership-turns-bit-eurosceptic-voting-better

There are more out there, just be very careful about the sources. For every good source I found on my google search there were nine that were contaminated.

Suffice to say, Europe is suffering an existential crisis. We're too divided and afraid and too obsessed with ethnicity and the past. We need to recognise that Europe must transform to make it through the coming century. We must band together, we must accept how increased movements of people will change the makeup of our societies and we must realise that we're living in a deteriorating state - relatively and absolutely - and that the golden years are over. We will have to make sacrificises and work together, make every effort to plan ahead and make good calls while staying true to our values.

Of course, we aren't doing any of that. We're bickering between ourselves, throwing away everything for the tiniest impact on our standard of living and precious mono-ethnic societies. At this rate we're deeply screwed. At this point I'm just happy if we can avoid another great European war or genocide. Hell, I'm not even ruling out progroms within a decade at this rate. The far right hardliners have been dreaming about a race war for decades, and at the rate their support is growing they might just grab enough influence to create one.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Why do I always hear messed up things coming out of Switzerland and Austria? Germany is the good one.

 

[Nivash]

Why do I always hear messed up things coming out of Switzerland and Austria? Germany is the good one.

Remember "Alternative fur Deutschland", the leader of which argued that German Police should shoot refugees attempting to cross the border - including women and children - back in January?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fugees-says-german-party-leader-a6844611.html

They made huge gains in the March regional elections.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rty-makes-big-gains-in-german-state-elections

This is not something limited to a few countries, it's a universal phenomenon all across the continent. Some countries are ahead of the curve, but we're all moving in the same direction.

 

[ElTorro]

What does "addressed" entail here? What do you want them to do besides the things they are already doing?

To give a specific example, ff the top of my head, I remember politicians from Germany's Green Party (and others) saying after the New Year's Eve sexual assaults that such assaults are a general problem and that it is not constructive to link them to the cultural background of the perpetrators in a relevant way. While I respect the intention to avoid xenophobic resentments, I believe that such statements have the opposite effect.

Given that most Western societies have reached their current status of gender equality and sexual liberalism through a decade-long process of activism and education, it is ludicrous to assume that people from societies and milieus that did not have such a development would not, on average, bring regressive cultural baggage with them. That is not a reason to not take them in, but it's a challenge that needs to be acknowledged before it can be addressed. If you don't even acknowledge it properly, how can you act on it?

Furthermore, handwaving away such things just creates the impression that these parties are just not up to the task. If you are a regular citizen horrified by events like those in Cologne, realize simple facts like the one I mentioned, and then see your politicians deny that reality, then you won't feel confident that these politicians will actually address the issue effectively.

If this continues, we will all pay for it in the end because morons will give right-wing parties actual political power and enable right-wing agendas beyond the issue of refugees and immigration. And many of them will do so unknowingly just because they think that there is no alternative on this single issue.

 

[sphagnum]

This century is really shining a spotlight on how easily liberals can slide to the right.

Not that such a thing was never noticed before, mind you.

 

[phaze]

Not surprising in the least.

 

[coleco]

Maybe if Europe's left addressed the immigration issue, then these things wouldn't happen.

Exactly. The left is self destroying itself. Most europeans don't have any problem with leftist policies, social healthcare and education or legal immigration, but left parties have been completely ignoring the massive unchecked immigration from supposed refugees, a big number of which don't come from syria, and censoring and insulting anybody that has an opinion against it.

Not surprising the population is sending a message to the political class by not voting those who ignore the issue and, to add insult to injury, try to criminalize those who are worried about it.

 

[Bedameister]

Why do I always hear messed up things coming out of Switzerland and Austria? Germany is the good one.

Yeah things look a lot better in Germany. There is of course the rise of the AfD but compared to the numbers we see in Switzerland and especially today in Austria it's not that problematic

Remember "Alternative fur Deutschland", the leader of which argued that German Police should shoot refugees attempting to cross the border - including women and children - back in January?

Yes the AfD are dicks but the polls show them at 10.5 - 14% right now
They are far away from winning anything. They probably will never be part of any government in any state or position anyone important like the president here in Austria.
They will probably stick around for some time and be a pain in the ass but they won't do that much damage. I could even see them maul themselves and furnish just like the Piratenpartei a few years back.

 

[ElTorro]

Suffice to say, Europe is suffering an existential crisis. We're too divided and afraid and too obsessed with ethnicity and the past. We need to recognise that Europe must transform to make it through the coming century. We must band together, we must accept how increased movements of people will change the makeup of our societies and we must realise that we're living in a deteriorating state - relatively and absolutely - and that the golden years are over. We will have to make sacrificises and work together, make every effort to plan ahead and make good calls while staying true to our values.

Of course, we aren't doing any of that. We're bickering between ourselves, throwing away everything for the tiniest impact on our standard of living and precious mono-ethnic societies. At this rate we're deeply screwed. At this point I'm just happy if we can avoid another great European war or genocide. Hell, I'm not even ruling out progroms within a decade at this rate. The far right hardliners have been dreaming about a race war for decades, and at the rate their support is growing they might just grab enough influence to create one.

Europe must move from ethnic and national identities to cultural identities. Being German/British/French/... should not depend on your ethnic heritage, but on whether you identify with modern European values. Unfortunately, many (most?) people still have problems with that concept, which is probably normal for nations with such long histories and heritages as ours. I have no idea in which direction we will move.

 

[Red Arremer]

Austrian here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I consider myself to be mostly on top of political news.

For the record, this is not determining the result of the presidential election. This is just the first result. Since none of the candidates reached 50%, there will be a second vote between the 2 highest-placing candidates (Hofer and Van der Bellen) on May 22.
A lot of this result was because of Griss and Van der Bellen taking voters from each other, it's very likely the majority of her, as well as Hundstorfer's and Khol's voters will likely flock to Van der Bellen.

This result also is a mirror of the current situation of Austrian politics, where the 2 biggest parties, that also currently form the government, SPÖ and ÖVP (represented here by Hundstorfer and Khol respectively), are massively losing, while the right wing FPÖ is gaining massively, and the left parties (Green party and Liberals) are gaining a little bit in each election.
Furthermore, the FPÖ has been a really strong party in Austria for a while. Unlike in most of the other Western European countries, right-wing politics have been a lot more successful here. In fact, the government formed back in 2000 was between ÖVP (centrist-right conservatives) and FPÖ.

I also have to point out that the federal president of Austria does not possess a lot of political power. He is mostly a figurehead, much like the Queen in England. The biggest political duty of the president is to pass the cabinet of ministers formed behind the chancellor.

 

[Nivash]

Yeah things look a lot better in Germany. There is of course the rise of the AfD but compared to the numbers we see in Switzerland and especially today in Austria it's not that problematic



Yes the AfD are dicks but the polls show them at 10.5 - 14% right now
They are far away from winning anything. They probably will never be part of any government in any state or position anyone important like the president here in Austria.
They will probably stick around for some time and be a pain in the ass but they won't do that much damage. I could even see them maul themselves and furnish just like the Piratenpartei a few years back.

I used to say the same thing about the Sweden Democrats. In 2010, they were at 4.6 %. "No big deal", said I. "Just the economic crisis, once things die down they'll drop back down to irrelevance. People are just protest voting, they aren't actually supporting a party with a leadership that joined when the members were still marching in SS uniforms".

In 2014, they were at 12,9 % and made third largest party in parliament. Since then their support has only been growing and reaching upwards of 25 % nationally. They already forced the larger leftwing block to rule as an impotent minority government which could be felled by the Sweden Democrats and moderate right wing block at any time. Even worse, the mainstream parties have started to adapt a lot of their policies.

Watch your back is all I'm saying, the pendulum can swing fast and hard before you even understand what's happening.

Europe must move from ethnic and national identities to cultural identities. Being German/British/French/... should not depend on your ethnic heritage, but on whether you identify with modern European values. Unfortunately, many (most?) people still have problems with that concept, which is probably normal for nations with such long histories and heritages as ours. I have no idea in which direction we will move.

And that's the root of this evil. There's no indication at all that we're moving in the right direction either, we'd need some kind of cultural revolution at this point for that to happen. Instead, we're getting the exact opposite with even more support for ethnonationalism. We don't have the generations of time it usually takes either. Increasing instability and greater means of travel will lead to increasing refugee streams by the year, if we can't unite around an EU-wide solution that's both humane, sustainable and workable people are going to start getting killed. But we can't do that with all this obsession about race and religion because it drives some nations to think that accepting any refugees is unpalatable and others to completely fuck up their response, with neither being able to agree with the other.

The deal with Turkey is barely kicking the can down the road. It will break down sooner rather than later - probably when Erdogan pushes the EU just a tad too far - and then we're back to square one.

 

[Lime]

To give a specific example, ff the top of my head, I remember politicians from Germany's Green Party (and others) saying after the New Year's Eve sexual assaults that such assaults are a general problem and that it is not constructive to link them to the cultural background of the perpetrators in a relevant way. While I respect the intention to avoid xenophobic resentments, I believe that such statements have the opposite effect.

Given that most Western societies have reached their current status of gender equality and sexual liberalism through a decade-long process of activism and education, it is ludicrous to assume that people from societies and milieus that did not have such a development would not, on average, bring regressive cultural baggage with them. That is not a reason to not take them in, but it's a challenge that needs to be acknowledged before it can be addressed. If you don't even acknowledge it properly, how can you act on it?

Furthermore, handwaving away such things just creates the impression that these parties are just not up to the task. If you are a regular citizen horrified by events like those in Cologne, realize simple facts like the one I mentioned, and then see your politicians deny that reality, then you won't feel confident that these politicians will actually address the issue effectively.

If this continues, we will all pay for it in the end because morons will give right-wing parties actual political power and enable right-wing agendas beyond the issue of refugees and immigration. And many of them will do so unknowingly just because they think that there is no alternative on this single issue.

The usual society doesn't give two fucks about rape culture, where we have plenty of cases of "non-immigrant" citizens who harass and/or rape women with the police and larger society dismissing it and blames the victim for not being sober or dressing appropriately. But as soon as a bunch of immigrants do it, suddenly women's safety and protection matter. It's then multiplied by other voices who disguise their racism in concerns about women's safety.

You have to look at it beyond culture - it's not as this is a case of "this is their culture and therefore they do this", it's a complex issue of a group of disenfranchised men who band together and hype one another up in who can be the most "powerful" guy.

This doesn't mean that there are problems in regards to gender in some communities and cultures and we have to acknowledge it, yet at the same time we have to understand that this isn't something inherent, just like it isn't inherent in "our" European-Christian cultures to propagate rape culture.

So in that sense, I think the premise of that discussion already has presumptions about "cultures" and people start to generalize based on a particular phenomenon of a group of men doing horrible shit.

And I think this particular example that you are mentioning works well in explaining how any humanitarian ideology can never win in these discussions, because they rely on racialized simplistic assumptions about a large group of people. A humanitarian ideology cannot give concession to fears about the Other when these fears are founded on incorrect and overly generalizing assertions about reality. That is also why the Left loses again and again in trying to do an arms-race with racist discourse and values about "them and their culture", because they can never catch up to parties who are explicitly racist.

EDIT: I really advise you to read this interview with a Danish researcher (just use Google translate): http://kvinfo.dk/webmagasinet/diskussionen-efter-koeln

 

[phaze]

Europe must move from ethnic and national identities to cultural identities.

Must ? Who determines that it must ? There is not a whole lot of countries like that today and I'd venture most of them didn't have much of an ethnic or national identity to begin with.

People always segregate themselves along the lines of religion, ethnicity, being cool in school and whether you prefer Kate Perry to Rihanna or not. There are societies that for thousands of years lived next to each other but are still overwhelmingly separated from one another. It was always going to be an uphill battle, one that needs both sides to succed and that even if successfull, will take generations to take to the good conclusion and its people who didn't want to understand that are to blame to the rise of the right today.

 

[Violet_0]

FPÖ and Greens are leading? I'm really out of the touch with Austrian politics

 

[geomon]

But he or she is head of state, swears in the chancellor, has the authority to dismiss the cabinet and is commander in chief of the military.

I don't consider that to be ceremonial. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ElTorro]

Yes the AfD are dicks but the polls show them at 10.5 - 14% right now
They are far away from winning anything. They probably will never be part of any government in any state or position anyone important like the president here in Austria.
They will probably stick around for some time and be a pain in the ass but they won't do that much damage. I could even see them maul themselves and furnish just like the Piratenpartei a few years back.

I think it's important to distinguish between specific parties and a more general political mood that is present in Europe independent of whatever party tries to represent it. Many people have said even before the rise of the AfD (when it's focus was still anti-EU and not anti-Immigration) that there is a political vacuum on the center-right in Germany's lineup of parties. Even if the AfD should disintegrate because of internal issues, somebody else would probably fill in. In a worst case scenario, enough people would just jump over that vacuum straight to parties that are even more far-right.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Europe must move from ethnic and national identities to cultural identities. Being German/British/French/... should not depend on your ethnic heritage, but on whether you identify with modern European values. Unfortunately, many (most?) people still have problems with that concept, which is probably normal for nations with such long histories and heritages as ours. I have no idea in which direction we will move.

I think we are already doing that. Nobody cares if you live in England but are German, or of you're Spanish and live in Holland. The problem seems to be that people coming here are not identifying with those modern European values, which is leading to trouble. Something that has been going on for years and years, but time and again has not been solved by the parties in power.

Watch your back is all I'm saying, the pendulum can swing fast and hard before you even understand what's happening.

All I get from those statistics is that the other parties are not grasping the trouble and concerns their citizens have and that is leading them to extreme parties. If the traditional parties would address the issues their people see, then those extreme parties would not exist.

 

[Lime]

(bunch of articles)

Thanks. You're Swedish, right? This article in Danish just got published yesterday and talks about it as well in terms of disillusionment with the moderate center parties so people flee to the left or right. It also contains the picture I posted above about the development of right-winged nationalistic parties.

 

[Red Arremer]

FPÖ and Greens are leading? I'm really out of the touch with Austrian politics

Van der Bellen isn't leading because he's Green, he's more of a personality than a party-representative. And while backed by the Greens, he entered the candidature as an independent.
There's several people in the Austrian political theater that are more known for their personalities rather than the party they were from. Haider was one such person, Van der Bellen is as well.

Either way, in the last 10 or so years, the SP and VP have been crashing down hard, while the FP has been gaining a lot of strength. It's gone from hovering around 15% up to 30+% in many regional elections. The Green party also has been making slight gains, and there's also the new liberal party called NEOS as a successor to the 90s' Liberal Forum under Heide Schmidt (who also was one of those personalities rather than party representatives).

People are really upset with the government parties. Anyone who has been following the political dynamics of Austria in the past 5 years could've seen this coming by a mile.

 

[ElTorro]

Must ? Who determines that it must ? There is not a whole lot of countries like that today and I'd venture most of them didn't have much of an ethnic or national identity to begin with.

The simple reality that we have—and probably will continue to have—significant immigration into our societies. You can't have a stable society if, for instance, large parts of its Muslim population primarily are identified and self-identifiy as Muslims and only secondarily as a German/British/French citizens.

 

[derFeef]

I hate my country sometimes.
No sorry, I hate the people in my country sometimes.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

 

[Lead]

I'm generally happy that we're finally turning right. The impact of years of "open borders" and being "immigrant friendly" have caused serious harm to our societies.

The multicultural project have failed.

Is it entirely on the immigrants? No, but the situation is what it is, we have massive separation of cultures, several generations of immigrants that have never worked and never will work. Several generations of immigrants that still want sharia law instead of democracy.

When I ask my co-worker if he's Danish he says no, he's Turkish, and therein lies the problem. A lot of immigrants flat out refuse to accept their host countries cultures and values. It's a recipe for disaster and that has already happened. Our welfare sector have been getting hit really hard and a lot of studies show that immigrants, especially female immigrants is disgustingly over represented in welfare recipients.

I can't walk down the street at night any longer without being harassed by children of immigrants who have nowhere to be and their parents don't give a shit.

Our governments failed to assimilate all these immigrants and it's just beyond the point of return. If we can't do it right with the ones who are already here, at least lets stop taking in anymore to make things worse as it is...

 

[Red Arremer]

I don't consider that to be ceremonial. Maybe I'm wrong.

While the president has these duties and authorities, abusing these powers would cause a stir. I do not believe that there has been a case where the president has dismissed a cabinet in Austrian history, nor has there been a case where the president did not authorize the formation of a cabinet.
The only one I can remember is Thomas Klestil not authorizing certain minister choices of the ÖVP-FPÖ coalition of 2000, but he never stopped the formation of that government in general.

The military leadership is really just de jure - the de facto leaders of the Austrian military are the minister of defense and the chief of staff.

 

[His Majesty]

You have to look at it beyond culture - it's not as this is a case of "this is their culture and therefore they do this", it's a complex issue of a group of disenfranchised men who band together and hype one another up in who can be the most "powerful" guy.

In Belgium we had a large controversy about the unanaesthetized slaughter of animals in temporary slaughterhouses. There was a lot of discussion between the right-wing government, which argued the importance of animal rights, and the socialist opposition party. Would you not say this is a cultural issue?

 

[Lime]

I'm generally happy that we're finally turning right. The impact of years of "open borders" and being "immigrant friendly" have caused serious harm to our societies.

The multicultural project have failed.

Is it entirely on the immigrants? No, but the situation is what it is, we have massive separation of cultures, several generations of immigrants that have never worked and never will work. Several generations of immigrants that still want sharia law instead of democracy.

When I ask my co-worker if he's Danish he says no, he's Turkish, and therein lies the problem. A lot of immigrants flat out refuse to accept their host countries cultures and values. It's a recipe for disaster and that has already happened. Our welfare sector have been getting hit really hard and a lot of studies show that immigrants, especially female immigrants is disgustingly over represented in welfare recipients.

I can't walk down the street at night any longer without being harassed by children of immigrants who have nowhere to be and their parents don't give a shit.

Our governments failed to assimilate all these immigrants and it's just beyond the point of return. If we can't do it right with the ones who are already here, at least lets stop taking in anymore to make things worse as it is...

Multiculturalism is going to happen whether you like it or not. There are no mono-cultures, no traditions that last forever. The only way you can be free of other people different from you is by fascistic force and ultimately death.

The question is how you deal with living with other people. Do you discriminate and throw them out by force? Or do you try to reach a compromise and maintain a steady dialogue?

 

[Nivash]

All I get from those statistics is that the other parties are not grasping the trouble and concerns their citizens have and that is leading them to extreme parties. If the traditional parties would address the issues their people see, then those extreme parties would not exist.

There is actually such a thing as the voting populace being dead wrong on certain issues. A large subset of the voters appear to have so low thresholds of tolerance that they lose their minds if you put a refugee center in their neighborhood or that they feel irrationally afraid of any group of foreign looking men, no matter what they're doing. I have tons of examples of both of these from my hometown of Gothenburg and more.

How do you address someone like that? The debate hasn't been about anything you can even start to address - like genuine costs or practical issues - but about irrational hatred and fear. The only way to address that is to cowtow to their irrational beliefs and that's not a solution at all.

Of course the governments should have had better plans in place and responded with more resolve, but as long as the only workable solution - an EU wide system - is for some reason impossible to implement, the national governments can't do all that much about the situation. If we want open internal borders we need a unified system for immigration.

Thanks. You're Swedish, right? This article in Danish just got published yesterday and talks about it as well in terms of disillusionment with the moderate center parties so people flee to the left or right. It also contains the picture I posted above about the development of right-winged nationalistic parties.

Swedish, yeah and thanks, good read. It's a disturbing development, historically it has a tendency to escalate through increased polarisation and inability to cooperate towards political clashes and, in worst case scenarios, Spanish-style civil wars. That's what worries me so much about the rise of the far right even beyond the tangible negatives for immigrants. We need stability more than ever but we just keep voting for parties who bring even more chaos to the table because we naively believe their easy solutions.

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm not just blaming the voting public here, there's definitely a case that the political centre has grown increasingly pathetic in lacking both resolve and vision lately. It's been particularly frustrating with the Social Democrats here in Sweden. Say what you will about the previous Moderate government (which, for the record, I didn't vote for) but they had some drive at the very least.

So in light of that it's not a surprise that people turn to the extremists when they're getting worried. The blame lies with all parties.

 

[Lead]

Multiculturalism is going to happen whether you like it or not. There are no mono-cultures, no traditions that last forever. The only way you can be free of other people different from you is by fascistic force and ultimately death.

The question is how you deal with living with other people. Do you discriminate and throw them out by force? Or do you try to reach a compromise and maintain a steady dialogue?

Personally?

If someone genuinely wants sharia to replace our current laws, I would have no problem deporting them with force if necessary.

I don't have any problem if people are muslims (even though on a certain level it contradicts our core beliefs), I don't have any problem if people are of a different heritage. My problem starts when people can't accept the values and culture of their new hosts, that's really all there is to it (for me anyway).

 

[Lime]

In Belgium we had a large controversy about the unanaesthetized slaughter of animals in temporary slaughterhouses. There was a lot of discussion between the right-wing government, which argued the importance of animal rights, and the socialist opposition party. Would you not say this is a cultural issue?

This is another issue not related to view on gender and power relationships. But yes, of course this is a cultural issue in terms of one specific group of people who practice halal (I assume) clashing with the laws of the country. The question is if the law is in effect, and then it's also important not to think that this is something that all X need to do (Muslims I assume?)

Personally?

If someone genuinely wants sharia to replace our current laws, I would have no problem deporting them with force if necessary.

I don't have any problem if people are muslims (even though on a certain level it contradicts our core beliefs), I don't have any problem if people are of a different heritage. My problem starts when people can't accept the values and culture of their new hosts, that's really all there is to it (for me anyway).

That's why you have laws in place that ensures that the person in question has to respect the established boundaries in the country. Whether you're brown, white, Danish, or Turkish, we all are equally subjected to the laws of the land.

It doesn't matter at all if someone identifies as Turkish while living in Denmark. Why would I care? People can believe and identify whatever they want. As long as the person follows the law the person should be fine, just like with yourself and me.

And just like you have a small amount of people who want to replace sharia or whatever, so do you have neo-nazis and technocrats and aristocrats and communists and fascists who want to replace the current liberal-democratic state. Should they also be deported?

 

[michaelius]

That's why you have laws in place that ensures that the person in question has to respect the established boundaries in the country. Whether you're brown, white, Danish, or Turkish, we all are equally subjected to the laws of the land.

Having laws is not enough. What needs to happen is enforcing them and instead we have lawless zones in Europe where police is afraid to enter.

 

[close to the edge]

Austrian here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I consider myself to be mostly on top of political news.

For the record, this is not determining the result of the presidential election. This is just the first result. Since none of the candidates reached 50%, there will be a second vote between the 2 highest-placing candidates (Hofer and Van der Bellen) on May 22.
A lot of this result was because of Griss and Van der Bellen taking voters from each other, it's very likely the majority of her, as well as Hundstorfer's and Khol's voters will likely flock to Van der Bellen.

This result also is a mirror of the current situation of Austrian politics, where the 2 biggest parties, that also currently form the government, SPÖ and ÖVP (represented here by Hundstorfer and Khol respectively), are massively losing, while the right wing FPÖ is gaining massively, and the left parties (Green party and Liberals) are gaining a little bit in each election.
Furthermore, the FPÖ has been a really strong party in Austria for a while. Unlike in most of the other Western European countries, right-wing politics have been a lot more successful here. In fact, the government formed back in 2000 was between ÖVP (centrist-right conservatives) and FPÖ.

I also have to point out that the federal president of Austria does not possess a lot of political power. He is mostly a figurehead, much like the Queen in England. The biggest political duty of the president is to pass the cabinet of ministers formed behind the chancellor.

This is all accurate. Still depressing to see the FPÖ come in first in a big election like this.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm generally happy that we're finally turning right. The impact of years of "open borders" and being "immigrant friendly" have caused serious harm to our societies.

The multicultural project have failed.

Flat out wrong. The influx of immigrants has heavily benefited most European countries, on both ends of the income spectrum. My GP doctor is Arab. His assistants are Austrian. Without him immigrating, they would not have a job, and I would not have the doctor I trust going to. My landlord is Jewish, and he employs several Austrian people. The owner of the plumbing business that fixed my toilet the other week is Turkish, the plumber who came in himself was Serbian, the apprentice Austrian.

Fact of the matter is that a lot of immigrants are taking jobs, yes, but those are mostly jobs that the majority of inherent citizens wouldn't do (working in construction, cleaning, healthcare, etc.), or couldn't do (academic jobs). They also employ other people, both immigrants and native people.

Pair that with the fact that the native society of most Western countries is aging, we NEED immigration in order to fill the workforce and pay our elders welfare.

Is it entirely on the immigrants? No, but the situation is what it is, we have massive separation of cultures, several generations of immigrants that have never worked and never will work. Several generations of immigrants that still want sharia law instead of democracy.

And there's several generations of people born in Europe that still want a fascist dictatorial state. So?

When I ask my co-worker if he's Danish he says no, he's Turkish, and therein lies the problem. A lot of immigrants flat out refuse to accept their host countries cultures and values. It's a recipe for disaster and that has already happened.

I was born in Austria, and yet I do not identify as Austrian. My mother was a Russian Jew, which I consider myself, and I would identify myself as European before I identify as Austrian. Heck, I would prefer identifying as Sammarinese before I identify as Austrian although I only lived for a few months in San Marino as opposed to Austria for most of the rest of my life.
I do not have to celebrate or live the culture of a country in order to be a functional part of its society. It is none of your business what I refer to as myself culturally, how I celebrate my holidays, or if I eat pork or not.

There's a German city, I forgot its name. They have a lot of immigrants, but those immigrants are Japanese. They have Japanese schools, Japanese kindergartens, Japanese businesses, Japanese stores with Japanese products and Japanese price labels, where everyone talks Japanese. And there's no problems there whatsoever. You know why? Because everyone is tolerant of each other.

Saying that your co-worker identifying themselves as Turkish is a problem is, in fact, the real problem. So what if they identify as Turkish? Isn't that up to them?

I can't walk down the street at night any longer without being harassed by children of immigrants who have nowhere to be and their parents don't give a shit.

Anectodal evidence. Last time I was harassed by children, they were blonde, pale, had blue eyes and spoke perfect Viennese dialect.

 

[Lime]

Having laws is not enough. What needs to happen is enforcing them and instead we have lawless zones in Europe where police is afraid to enter.

And the question is what caused these zones to occur? Surely it is not "their culture". It is years if not decades of social and economic policies that have disenfranchised these zones to become as crazy as they are. And we need to tackle this properly without resorting to binary thinking about "us & them" and generalizing statements based on skin color and/or religion. The far-rights solution is basically "throw all these people out of the country" and you see how their rhetoric and discourse has created this sort of all or nothing attitude in the populace where the only thing possible to become "good again" is to throw out anyone who is a brown person practicing Islam.

Don't look further than in this thread where someone is using the exact same rhetoric that Reagan used against Black communities with "welfare queens", but this time against Muslim women. European discourse on Islam, Middle-eastern and African people has turned so incredibly toxic