Because that surely excuses that America has a serious problem with undocumented immigrants? You might as well say that having sovereign borders is racist too.
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Austrian Presidential Elections: First Results Show Right-wing Populist Triumph
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Because that surely excuses that America has a serious problem with undocumented immigrants? You might as well say that having sovereign borders is racist too.
The perfect formula for fascism. Nationalistic, conservative values coupled with the complete acceptance of entirely free-market ideology.
ClosingADoor
Member
The US proposed refugee quota for 2016 is 85,000. That is less then Austria, a country of 8.5 million is dealing with I think.
If the US suddenly gets about 1.5 million people within a few months across their borders that they need to house, educate and pay for, with no outlook on them returning, I think they wouldn't like it also.
I am not advocating to close all the borders and accept nobody. But I do understand that people don't want immigration in these huge uncontrollable numbers.
I am used to a country that is progressive on gay issues and the first to legalize gay marriage. So I expect that the people living here will accept that or at least just shut up and keep their opinions to themselves about it.
The solution people want is to get rid of everyone who is different from themselves. Brown, Muslim, different traditions, different background. How can non-fascist parties give them such a solution? People want these people out of their eye-sight and society, and the only solution for such a thing is ostracizing them until they move (already happened to a lot of the ones who can't stand living in racist European countries and has the means to move elsewhere) or until they are kicked out by force (the remaining can't afford to move or has roots there).
Particularly what about them? I dislike any religious group that hates an ethnic group for the sake of their ethnicity, gender or sexual leanings. I can see how you can conflate the Christian right and "ultra-nationalist" groups, though they're not particularly equivalent.
Enosh
Member
there is more than person in Europe, people who give shit to the US for deportations are usually the same ones that campaign for open borders here
Sure they have grievances and some of them are legitimate, but so much of it is stacked with racism and xenophobia that I'm not going to look at their vote uncritically. Voting for the "outsider" just because they're outside the establishment is dumb (see: Trump and to a lesser extent Bernie in the US) and counterproductive, particularly when the outsider is a espousing far right ideals.
JesseEwiak
Member
I mean not in a few months, but between 1995 and 2005, there were several hundred thousand undocumented immigrants coming in per year and while we didn't do the best job with it, we responded by while, electing a pro-immigration reform moderate conservative twice, then a liberal pro-immigration centrist liberal twice and now Donald Trump only has a shot at the nomination because GOP rules are weird and he's gotten massive amounts of free media.
So, should pro-gay marriage people in America kept their opinions to themselves and just accepted bans on gay marriage, since the majority clearly opposed it?
What a wide generalization. I bet you think non-whites can't be racist either.
Red Arremer
Member
Where did I say anything like that? Is Islam and Catholicism literally the only options here? Whatever happened to secularism?
Straight from Hofer's mouth as well:
https://www.fpoe.at/artikel/fpoe-pr...r-integration-ist-fuer-mich-eine-bringschuld/
Institutionalized discrimination is in fact on the manifesto of Viennese FPÖ:
I also distinctly remember various people of the FPÖ trying to bring up the unraveling of laws in regards to Wiederbetätigung and anti-semitism.
The FPÖ proposed that the very second the reason for asylum ends, the refugees have to return into their original country. There is no definition of what constitutes the end of the reason for asylum.
You're so wrong on so many terms.
If someone votes for a right-wing party, it doesn't necessarily mean they vote because of xenophobia.
Some vote, because they don't get to work. Some don't even think this far because their problem is right in front of them.
We don't have people who care about these backgrounds. Some just want a save place with work. I can't even judge them. Not everyone has the same chances my dear.
Even immigrants say it's a great shitshow, because some politicans had the guts to say they get a new start here. Now they get isolated for months because there's no work or there are rights that won't let them work. Those rights could be changed, but there's no change. You can say what you want, but there's a need for a new party to take over. I'm fine with either as long as we care for a change. It can't get worse, we are on a downspiral for a long time already.
Because neither the Democrats and Republicans care about the undocumented immigrant problem. One of them wants them for cheaper labour and the other one wants both cheaper labour and votes. It has gotten to such a shrill point that Trump is capitalizing on that, but I think we all know that Trump will pull an about-face if he gets into office, or make some feeble attempt to fix the issue. He doesn't care, nor anyone else about the proportion of illegal to legal immigrant pools. He's a self-serving opportunist who's capitalizing on people's grievances.
Red Arremer
Member
Could you please stop putting words in my mouth?
Again - why are there only extremes in your view?
The poster I quoted brought up Europeans criticizing the US for their immigrant/refugee policies and at the same time turning to the ultranationalist far right, while at the very same moment, the US have an ultranationalist far right presidential candidate (who, incidentally, is getting a LOT of support from the population, just like the right wingers do in Europe) and facing the same anti-islamic philosophies being on the rise.
ClosingADoor
Member
I don't think that is what people want at all. I certainly don't. People living here now are EU citizens and have every right to stay. But that does not mean we need to accept everyone all the time.
I don't have the numbers for the EU, but there are probably a lot of undocumented immigrants there also. Certainly in countries like Italy and such where a lot of them arrive.
No, I am not saying that at all. But if your country has already embraced those progressive ideas, why should you be accepting of ideas and thoughts that want to get rid of that? That is going in the wrong direction. You should not be tolerant of intolerance, something that has been done here for too long now.
No, people want a reasonable solution to the obvious problem of mass immigration.
You see news about 1.5 million Migrants coming into Germany in a year - how do you expect people to react? they aren't given any assurances about how migrants will integrate into a society.
It's a huge concern, and one that leaders such as Merkel have rightly been criticsed for. We can't just open borders and let everyone in, it's absurd.
Stop making stupid generalisations about what European people want.
Impressive.
A single crisis is all it took for Europe to begin flocking towards Far-Right/Nationalist parties, en masse. Decades of liberal progress were for naught, apparently.
Should I expect total slide into fascism as this century progresses? Because refugees aren't going to stop coming for greener pastures; sectarian conflicts and climate-change influenced crises are predicted to engender even more refugees/migrants over the coming decades.
What a pathetic shit show this has become.
A single crisis is all it took for Europe to begin flocking towards Far-Right/Nationalist parties, en masse. Decades of liberal progress were for naught, apparently.
Should I expect total slide into fascism as this century progresses? Because refugees aren't going to stop coming for greener pastures; sectarian conflicts and climate-change influenced crises are predicted to engender even more refugees/migrants over the coming decades.
What a pathetic shit show this has become.
What else do you want? These parties do not want to see hijabs, Arab language, anti-pork, mosques, minarets, and so on. They cannot exist in their future of the world. How are you going to remove them? How will you negate these things without force if not exclusion or expulsion from society and the country?
Ehm, I'm not saying "let everyone in", you're putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about the people already living here, who are already legally allowed to be here. The parties don't want to live with them. That is the ultimate implication of their policies and ideology. It's either become us or leave. There is no room for Islam or different middle eastern cultures in their vision.
That is the domestic immigration policies I am addressing, and I am not talking about how to handle the current refugee crisis which is another topic in itself (countries looking out for their own, not taking the weight, problem of tragedy of the commons, etc.)
ClosingADoor
Member
And that is the problem. Because no other political party is having a good answer to this stuff, people flock to the extremes because of a lack of alternatives. If the established parties had good answers, this wouldn't be happening.
How much of this anti Islamic sentiment and racism is propagated by the media itself? How much media for example, does Murdoch control over their, and is it as popular, right wing and xenophobic as his rags and outlets in places like the US and UK?
What are you talking about? How can you have a good answer to that level of bigotry and racism. The simple answer is to reject it. People are entitled to their religious freedoms, and regarding those specific examples, things like mosque's, hijabs, use of the Arab language etc. Those people who want to rid people of those things are essentially fascists.
What are you talking about? How can you have a good answer to that level of bigotry and racism. The simple answer is to reject it. People are entitled to their religious freedoms, and regarding those specific examples, things like mosque's, hijabs, use of the Arab language etc. Those people who want to rid people of those things are essentially fascists.
ClosingADoor
Member
Don't know about Austria, but here in Holland outside of some right wing blogs and such that really isn't happening. We have very reasonable and respected news organisations.
Assimilating into the host's country's culture is imperative for multicultarism to thrive, if that's clearly what we're seeking for here. You seem to think that with the voting in of these parties, that the populace will suddenly be given the inexorable right to exterminate anyone who's not from their ethnicity or religious group. Austria's official language is German, so you're expected to speak German if you want to succeed and integrate, but that's on your notice. No one's to "ban" Arabic from being spoken. And from what I can tell; hijabs, halal meat, mosques and minarets are all importations of religious dogma. That's not what I call assimilation, all you're doing is enforcing cultural sectarianism.
Moved for the new page:
Maybe Austria needs more an education reform than anything else. Or more educated people.
Voting by education level from low (up) to high (bottom):
I disagree.
The level of education and the number of academics has gone up. It's just that most Austrian parties have all but lost touch with the lowly educated share of the population.
It's not "the uneducated voting for the right wing because they're uneducated".
People with a low educational standard are a demographic subset like any other. Like farmers, teachers, "the youth", seniors, policemen, academics.
If Latinos all voted democrat, you can't say "well, if we had less latinos, the republicans would fare better in elections". It's the fact that republicans would need to communicate with the latino voters on eye level. Taking their issues seriously, not dismissing their fears.
If 'the uneducated' are so easy to manipulate because they're sooo so dumb, why are all other parties failing so hard at doing so?
Red Arremer
Member
There's one big media company founded and owned by late Hans Dichand, which publishes the most-read newspapers in Austria (Kronen Zeitung and the free of charge Heute). They're basically FOX news levels of journalism and also tend to lean quite in favour of the FPÖ. The Dichand conglomerate is the biggest medium here.
The main TV stations are government-owned (ORF), and firmly in hand of the government parties. They tend to depict the SPÖ and ÖVP in a better light, but generally are decently independent.
There's a few more proper independent newspapers and TV stations, but their market share is nowhere near as massive as Kronen Zeitung and ORF.
Frankfurter
Member
I mean not in a few months, but between 1995 and 2005, there were several hundred thousand undocumented immigrants coming in per year and while we didn't do the best job with it, we responded by while, electing a pro-immigration reform moderate conservative twice, then a liberal pro-immigration centrist liberal twice and now Donald Trump only has a shot at the nomination because GOP rules are weird and he's gotten massive amounts of free media.
So, should pro-gay marriage people in America kept their opinions to themselves and just accepted bans on gay marriage, since the majority clearly opposed it?
With Ted Cruz being the no. 2. There is no way to spin what's going on in the GOP and with its supporters right now.
mavericktopgun
Member
Dark day for Austria and Europe.
Very dark.
Very dark.
Assimilation doesn't work, as has been proven in the 19th century's mass immigrations to e.g. the US. You can't ask people to let go of their culture, traditions and identity.
Churches, religious holidays, traditions, etc. are also "religious dogma"
Multiculturalism and Assimilation are not the same things.
Canada is a multicultural country; hijabs, halal meat, mosques and minarets are all importations of religious dogma, but are not considered impediments to integration. These things are freely allowed, and should be in any liberal society.
The type of assimilation you're describing, where immigrants are supposed to toss away all of their cultural and religious heritage, simply doesn't exist here in North America.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, we have politicians like Wilders (far right, but socialist on economic policies mostly) and the Socialist Party being against immigration on different levels for different reasons. Just like any country has everywhere in the world.
But the media is definitely not on the level of American media here. The largest news organisation (NOS) is a public one and independent, actually blamed for being to much on the left sometimes. The other television network is RTL, can't say I have ever seen them being anti immigration or whatever. News is brought independently, not left or right.
Major newspapers are the Telegraaf (right wing), Volkskrant (left wing) and NRC and AD, which I would say are centrist.
And the majority of people in Europe also isn't asking that. But they are asking that the people coming here adapt to society, learn the language and accept the values in place. Something that is completely normal, but that has been ignored for a long time or has not been effectively achieved.
Then clearly multicultarism can't work and by your admission, we'll continue to see cultural and religious tensions that'll be inconveniently drawn around ethnic lines.
You'll also notice that the one on the defensive will almost always be Islam, not Buddhism or Sikhism or whatever.
We in the West have been actively embroiled in warfare with several Muslim majority states for decades, and still are, so of course Muslims/Islam will be on the defensive. That and the fact that Muslim immigrants tends to utterly dwarf Buddhist and Sikh immigration in sheer volume.
And Multiculturalism does work, as evidenced by North America; Europe is dropping the ball on this due to its inability to come to terms with different ethnic groups; ethnocentrism and nationalism are far more prevalent and entrenched than in immigrant-countries like Canada and even the USA.
ClosingADoor
Member
With the US I have the idea that people moving there feel themselves to be American more. Immigrants here still feel like they are Turkish, Moroccan, Tunisian, etc, even if they are second or third generation immigrants. That is a big problem, but I don't see how we can change that.
The West isn't at war with Muslims countries as a whole. A lot of European countries are not involved at all. Sweden for example isn't involved, yet they have trouble with their immigrant population.
Europe would collapse if we had to take every starving African in.
I'm sorry but I don't know any of these people, and if it means they have to die for me to raise my children in this great country as I was raised, then so be it.
People are delusional if they think we can help everyone without severe consequences, we can't and it's not going to happen. Ethnic Europeans are finally drawing the line in the sand, we've had enough.
Why not? Why can't I live my happy little neoliberal capitalist Euro-Christian lifestyle with some minarets in my urban skyline? Why would a hijab on the bus be a problem for me? How do these things infringe on me and my values? And if they (or I) do anything illegal, we have laws in place to ensure that them or me gets punished accordingly. We don't need to create special laws for them.
To your second point, Muslims are more exposed and prominent because there are much more of them than Sikhs or Buddhists. Also, the media love to talk about them and how bad or victimized they are all the time, so we hear so much about them already.
You're delusional if you think this is about helping everyone. It's not a zero-sum game. We can at least do something
Also, you have no idea how rich we are and how many things we could be without. Or how much money the elite is holding unto while we bicker and fight over a bunch of fucking war refugees and the food and shelter they require to live.
I don't know who decided that we're responsible for other people?
I don't know if people got it into their heads that the world is somehow a fair level playing field, it isn't, not even in Europe, but certainly not anywhere else.
And yes I don't want to give up my white picket fence house and my free welfare and healthcare just to save other people of whom I have nothing in common with and I know nothing about.
Sure I agree we can do something, and we already do, but what people are asking is above and beyond and the people are saying "NO" to that quite loudly as shown in the rise of the right.
Darkangel
Member
Honestly, what did people on the left think was going to happen?
When you spend over a decade trying to convince people that the destruction of their traditional state is "inevitable" and should be "embraced," you're going to get some backlash. These people like their shared traditions, history, and beliefs, they don't want someone telling them that they have to change.
It's like in Australia with the "boat people." Opponents kept saying that the migrants were inevitable and that the country would be forced to deal with them. Instead, Tony "Stop the Boats" Abbot was able to quite literally stop the boats. Australia kind of went crazy with that whole thing, but the point is that nothing is truly inevitable. Even though cultures naturally change over time, a nation does have some ability to control the way it gradually changes. I'd say the only reason multiculturalism has been somewhat successful here in Canada is because we basically have no culture and our immigration system is essentially a meritocracy.
Alternatively they could choose to not have significant immigration into their societies, and instead deal with the low birthrate problem directly.
If this was your only reason, that seems a bit short sighted.
ClosingADoor
Member
And we are doing something. We are doing a lot actually. We give a lot of money, there are organisations helping all over the world, we are taking in people from warzones and other countries to give them a better life. But there is a line somewhere.
But clearly, the solution is to take in millions of unskilled refugees from failed nations!
JesseEwiak
Member
So, if it was 1933 and a Jew harassed your girlfriend, what would've been your response?
Moved for the new page:
Maybe Austria needs more an education reform than anything else. Or more educated people.
Voting by education level from low (up) to high (bottom):
Just a drive-by:
More education would need more money.
Current top-parties aren't really into giving more money for educational purposes.
Even germany tries to get our teachers.
I know enough schools that would need a reality check, cause they're stuck somewhere 2000 with CD-Players and TV's with VHS.
Some universities aren't any better.
You're not going to lose that because of a bunch of refugees. That's just fear talking that is propagated by someone telling you that's the real problem, while the elite run away with money in tax havens or we ignore other costly problems in our country (alcoholism, inequality, etc.)
We've had refugees before and it worked out and maybe we could learn from those experiences to make it even better this time around. Instead we think it's the end of the world and our society will crumble.
We are not doing a lot and the ones who does anything are taking the brunt of the weight - Germany, Spain & Sweden especially. The solution is not to close the borders and let people rot and die in front of the walls of Fortress Europa.
Putting your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes won't make the refugees go away. Yet this is exactly what the Right is doing.
ClosingADoor
Member
What do you propose then? Even if we limit ourselves to Syria, this is a country with 17 million people. Should we accept them all? Or just 10 million? 5 million? Then we have Afghanistan. Pakistan. Iraq. Libya. Yemen. Somalia. Sudan. Nigeria. Mali. Eritrea. Can you give me a number that would be doing enough for you?
Putting your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes won't make the immigration problems go away. Yet this is exactly what the Left is doing.
His Majesty
Banned
This shift towards the right has been going on for much, much longer and it's the direct result of the left burying their heads in the sand for the consequences of a multicultural society. Everyone here seems to be worried about the right-wing but I would be more worried of giving the keys back to the people who made the mess we are in now.
Spieler Eins
Member
Thankfully, the Austrian president has barely more power than the Queen in Britain (dismissing the cabinet will never happen). And it isn't crazy to assume that the right wing candidate will lose in the one on one election round. Especially since the biggest problem for the actual important elections forward is gonna be the multi party system. I.e. one big right wing party is able to attract all of the uneducated and (rural) racists of the entire country, while votes from the less idiotic will be split among several fractions. It's always Strache/FPÖ vs. all the others, giving the former an inherent advantage.
Red Arremer
Member
Aside from the volume of Muslim immigrants, there is also the fact that it's a lot easier to identify yourself as an American than as, say, German or Italian or French. The US and Canada don't have as clearly defined cultural heritage and history as the European countries do. And due to the fact the American countries are heavily based on immigrants from all across the world, you do not have that in Europe. In America, due to its history and heritage, you can get away being of any nationality, denomination, or race, and still be able to call yourself American. If you see a black man and he says he's German or Swedish, would you take him seriously, though?
Furthermore, nationalism is a big issue in Europe and its inner workings. There's a lot of secessionist movements for instance. You have Scotland and Northern Ireland in the UK, the Faeroe Islands for Denmark, Catalunya and the Basque country for Spain, Veneto and Sicily for Italy, Kosovo in Serbia, Belgium being in danger of falling apart due to nationalism - and that's just the ones from the top of my head, there's plenty more. And of course nationalistic movements for minorities across borders, which is mostly centralized in the Balkan region.
But then again, the history - both culturally and generally speaking here - makes it very hard to define a country. How does one become a true, for instance, Austrian? Do I have to wear lederhosen, listen to Mozart all the time, eat Schnitzel on Sunday and adopt Catholicism? Or even worse, how does it work with a big country with different cultures, like say Britain? What if I immigrate into the London area, "assimilate culturally" by throwing away my heritage's cultural identity, like some people in here demand, and then move to Scotland? Do I have to change again from the English culture I adopted to become more Scottish?
And this is just an easy example. There's no such thing as a single British or German or French culture, because all of these countries have regional traditions and cultural aspects to them that the region just a few km further doesn't have. If you move to Southern Germany, you'll encounter Catholicism. Move a bit further North, and you'll be deep in Protestant territory. Do you have to change denominations to reflect that change of location, even if you are moving within the same country?
And historically speaking, it's hard to define culture, as well. A mere few centuries ago, Germany was but a mosaic made up of hundreds of tiny duchies, bishoprics and republics. I mentioned Mozart earlier - did you know, he wasn't even Austrian! He was born in what is now known as Austria, yes, but back in that day, Salzburg was an independent nation. Does that make him really Austrian? You can have similar discussions about, say, Nicolaus Copernicus.
This is what makes it so difficult to identify with a European country you live in as an immigrant. But it's not the only thing.
What if you simply don't want to be part of the culture of that country you live in? That does not mean you can't be a productive member of society, either. Why do I have to eat Schnitzel and listen to Mozart in order to be Austrian? Why can't I eat kebab or spaghetti? Why do I have to celebrate Christmas, and can't celebrate Hanukkah or Ramadan or nothing at all? What if I just don't like classical music and would rather listen to Jazz or to rock? Where does cultural assimilation end and cultural oppression begin?
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