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[ElTorro]

Alternatively they could choose to not have significant immigration into their societies, and instead deal with the low birthrate problem directly.

How would you do that?

Apart from that that, there is no inherent problem with immigration per se. Skilled immigrants who identify with a liberal society are an asset. The issue is how to make sure that people who want to stay here integrate well into society instead of creating isolated parallel sub-societies, and how to reject those who don't.

But clearly, the solution is to take in millions of unskilled refugees from failed nations!

Taking in refugees is not meant to be a solution for any domestic problem. You are conflating immigration with asylum. Both are different problems with need for different solutions.

 

[Madness]

Assimilation doesn't work, as has been proven in the 19th century's mass immigrations to e.g. the US. You can't ask people to let go of their culture, traditions and identity

You have no idea what you're talking about. Historically multiculturalism has never and will never work especially when demographics favor one group over the other.

What do you mean 19th century mass immigration assimilation hasn't worked? Do you mean the Germans, Irish, Italians, Cubans who have now assimilated? The reason it has been tougher now is because in the era of skype, air travel, social media, wire transfer of money. People can and do travel over whilst still not needing to integrate because of multiculturalist policies or ideals like yours.

It is why rather than assimilate you see the creation of ethnic slums and cities and white flight. Come to BC. You'll see how entire cities are large immigration centers where people can work, live and study without leaving their ethnic community. But this is where the problem happens. They have no reason to assimilate. And it is why it is very tough to build any sort of unified identity. Those slums in Belgium and France did not come from nowhere.

The fact that all demographic growth in western countries comes from immigration is worrying because it is inevitable that the societies change. Just like large numbers of Europeans changed the reality of indigenous groups in North and South America and Australia.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Of course we only make it to Neogaf with shit like this, figures.

Anyway it is a big deal but only sorta.
The far right held about a third of the votes for a while, it just sees no contention right now as it did when we still had the BZÖ.
With Fischer not being able to run for it again and the candidates presented by ÖVP and SPÖ being pretty much throwaways the results aren't that surprising, still higher than I expected.

The 2nd round between Hofer and VdB is gonna go to VdB though very likely. I voted Griss and will definitely go and vote VdB despite rather disliking him and so will most of the other voters.


Fun fact the FPÖ has direct roots to nazism, the original party formed of a bunch of pardoned nazis.

 

[Red Arremer]

Anyway it is a big deal but only sorta.
The far right held about a third of the votes for a while, it just sees no contention right now as it did when we still had the BZÖ.

We did have Team Stronach softening the blow a bit, but they're gonna be gone by next election, so it's only gonna go up further.

The 2nd round between Hofer and VdB is gonna go to VdB though very likely. I voted Griss and will definitely go and vote VdB despite rather disliking him and so will most of the other voters.

Same, though I don't mind VdB.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Where does cultural assimilation and and cultural oppression begin?

I definitely agree with you that it is a hard thing to define. And you make good points why it is harder here then in countries like America and Canada. But I don't see that as an excuse for people here to not try and adapt, starting with the language and accepting local values and customs.

I don't expect anybody to throw away their own background. I do expect them to respect the country they are in and try to be a part of it. Closing yourself off and keep living in your own bubble is not a good thing. The problem is that even these second or third generation immigrants are still feeling more attached to their parents or grandparents country then the one they live in all their life. When you are here, I expect you to share - or at least accept - the same values when it comes to women rights, LGTB rights, free speech, etc.

 

[sphagnum]

So, if it was 1933 and a Jew harassed your girlfriend, what would've been your response?

I was trying not to Godwin earlier but it really comes down to this. What is happening is literally leading to fascists gaining power across the Western world. This can't be allowed to happen.

Considering how things are going to change this century, leftists (and liberals, but they're starting to bend) should really be trying to forge alliances with the immigrant populations of Europe right now for the sake of the future as demographics change. It's clear that labor in Europe has been split in the same way that it has in the US - whereas it was easier in the past for labor parties to gain power in Europe when the native populations were more ethnically homogenous, they're now getting swamped not only with the decreased appetite for socialism following the fall of the USSR but the same kind of racist shit that divides the white working class in the US that prevents us from even getting to social democracy. People want government assistance, but only for people "like them". And this is core element of fascist economics, the "organic democracy" that relies on a particular in-group. This cannot be allowed.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I was trying not to Godwin earlier but it really comes down to this. What is happening is literally leading to fascists gaining power across the Western world. This can't be allowed to happen.

Considering how things are going to change this century, leftists (and liberals, but they're starting to bend) should really be trying to forge alliances with the immigrant populations of Europe right now for the sake of the future as demographics change. It's clear that labor in Europe has been split in the same way that it has in the US - whereas it was easier in the past for labor parties to gain power in Europe when the native populations were more ethnically homogenous, they're now getting swamped not only with the decreased appetite for socialism following the fall of the USSR but the same kind of racist shit that divides the white working class in the US that prevents us from even getting to social democracy. People want government assistance, but only for people "like them". And this is core element of fascist economics, the "organic democracy" that relies on a particular in-group. This cannot be allowed.

I don't think the USSR as an example to look at when it comes to these things... They literally oppressed half a continent for about 50 years.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

We did have Team Stronach softening the blow a bit, but they're gonna be gone by next election, so it's only gonna go up further.

Same, though I don't mind VdB.

I actually completely forgot them. Used to like VdB back when I was first voting but he's been pretty hypocritical since then.

 

[Nivash]

Honestly, what did people on the left think was going to happen?

When you spend over a decade trying to convince people that the destruction of their traditional state is "inevitable" and should be "embraced," you're going to get some backlash. These people like their shared traditions, history, and beliefs, they don't want someone telling them that they have to change.

But it is inevitable and embracing it to find something new is a hell of a lot better than getting dragged kicking and screaming into it like what is happening now. You do realise that this century is going to be incomprehensibly disruptive, right? Provided civilisation as we know it even makes it through, the state of society and the world in 2100 is going to be unrecognisable. People can keep their shared tradition, history and beliefs all they want, but they're going to have to do it in a new society where there a lot of people with different backgrounds doing the same. The pure necessity for mass migrations of people is going to ensure that the only monoethnic societies are going to be either like North Korea or flat-out extinct. In that scenario I'll go with door number one and take a shot at a multicultural society.

It's like in Australia with the "boat people." Opponents kept saying that the migrants were inevitable and that the country would be forced to deal with them. Instead, Tony "Stop the Boats" Abbot was able to quite literally stop the boats. Australia kind of went crazy with that whole thing, but the point is that nothing is truly inevitable. Even though cultures naturally change over time, a nation does have some ability to control the way it gradually changes. I'd say the only reason multiculturalism has been somewhat successful here in Canada is because we basically have no culture and our immigration system is essentially a meritocracy.

Alternatively they could choose to not have significant immigration into their societies, and instead deal with the low birthrate problem directly.

Of course you can stop refugees with force. We could do it in Europe too: build a wall, mount some machineguns on top, gun down anyone who comes close. Or, if you're an island like Astralia, forcefully tow away the refugee boats or bribe the smugglers to go back. Everything is possible if you're prepared to toss away any pretense of respecting human rights or just basic human decency. They're not a Mongol horde, they aren't going to literally storm you.

But if you think that's an acceptable solution you should go and take a long, hard look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what the fuck went so wrong with you; that some people have become worth less than dirt in your eyes.

 

[sphagnum]

I don't think the USSR as an example to look at when it comes to these things...

I wasn't using it as a paragon of what society should be like, I was just explaining why left and left-leaning parties aren't as powerful any more, and that's certainly one of the reasons.

 

[Red Arremer]

I voted for Hofer, because Asylum seekers harassed my girlfriend last week, these guys are scum.

What if your girlfriend had gotten harassed by neo-nazis?
What if your girlfriend had gotten harassed by the old Austrian lady in the tram because she's not speaking German?

 

[sphagnum]

What if your girlfriend had gotten harassed by neo-nazis?
What if your girlfriend had gotten harassed by the old Austrian lady in the tram because she's not speaking German?

And of course, what about the immigrants who constantly get harassed by natives and white nationalists?

 

[ClosingADoor]

But it is inevitable and embracing it to find something new is a hell of a lot better than getting dragged kicking and screaming into it like what is happening now. You do realise that this century is going to be incomprehensibly disruptive, right? Provided civilisation as we know it even makes it through, the state of society and the world in 2100 is going to be unrecognisable. People can keep their shared tradition, history and beliefs all they want, but they're going to have to do it in a new society where there a lot of people with different backgrounds doing the same. The pure necessity for mass migrations of people is going to ensure that the only monoethnic societies are going to be either like North Korea or flat-out extinct. In that scenario I'll go with door number one and take a shot at a multicultural society.

If you believe that, then I don't see how supporting mass immigration like this is a good thing also. That new society that will be created then should be mostly based on the free values we have in the West now, not accepting a ton of restrictive and oppressive rules that sadly the Middle-east has currently.

I wasn't using it as a paragon of what society should be like, I was just explaining why left and left-leaning parties aren't as powerful any more, and that's certainly one of the reasons.

They aren't as powerful because they have lost touch with their base. At least that is how it is over here. The workers party here stopped listening to the actual workers and time and again ignored their views. Those people have now gone to the right, or actually the far left which is also against unchecked immigration here.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Multiculturalism can work in Europe if the cultures coming in are by and large compatible with a liberal society, like Chinese, Japanese, etc. The only problem is what is a moderate way to make sure all people from illiberal cultures are integrated and are part of society? People in this thread keep saying 'mainstream parties don't offer a moderate solution'. What is a realistic way of doing this? You can't really force people to live in certain places, people live where they can afford.

 

[Lime]

What do you propose then? Even if we limit ourselves to Syria, this is a country with 17 million people. Should we accept them all? Or just 10 million? 5 million? Then we have Afghanistan. Pakistan. Iraq. Libya. Yemen. Somalia. Sudan. Nigeria. Mali. Eritrea. Can you give me a number that would be doing enough for you?

The ones seeking asylum at our doorstep with a proper process.

Putting your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes won't make the immigration problems go away. Yet this is exactly what the Left is doing.

I'd rather deal with the challenges of potential clashes between cultures than letting people die because of the walls of Fortress Europa just because people are too fragile to handle a group of people behaving different from themselves.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Historically multiculturalism has never and will never work especially when demographics favor one group over the other.

What do you mean 19th century mass immigration assimilation hasn't worked? Do you mean the Germans, Irish, Italians, Cubans who have now assimilated? The reason it has been tougher now is because in the era of skype, air travel, social media, wire transfer of money. People can and do travel over whilst still not needing to integrate because of multiculturalist policies or ideals like yours.

It is why rather than assimilate you see the creation of ethnic slums and cities and white flight. Come to BC. You'll see how entire cities are large immigration centers where people can work, live and study without leaving their ethnic community. But this is where the problem happens. They have no reason to assimilate. And it is why it is very tough to build any sort of unified identity. Those slums in Belgium and France did not come from nowhere.

The fact that all demographic growth in western countries comes from immigration is worrying because it is inevitable that the societies change. Just like large numbers of Europeans changed the reality of indigenous groups in North and South America and Australia.

Co-existence is possible. Look more of it as a melting pot - assimilation demands obliteration, whereas the melting pot analogy encourages co-existence and cooperation. It just takes time.

 

[Sternenstaub86]

This is what a fast growing and not well integrated muslim population will get you. Right parties going strong everywhere in europe and will continue to do so.


http://derstandard.at/2000005451456/Muslime-in-Oesterreich (development of muslim population in austria) --> fast growing, even before the refugee crisis
http://religion.orf.at/stories/2619481/ (55 % of austrian muslims are "consistend fundemantalists" according to this study)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I voted for Hofer, because Asylum seekers harassed my girlfriend last week, these guys are scum.

Remember the days when the results were adjusted up for FPÖ in polls due to empirical value because people were ashamed to actually say it aloud? I miss them.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

I remember when far-right parties were but an insignificant footnote. I want those days to return.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The ones seeking asylum at our doorstep with a proper process.

The current asylum procedures would lead to millions of people being here for years. This will also draw more people, like we saw when Merkel said everyone was welcome. This has also lead to a lot of people risking their lives and dying.

The people at our doorstep would make a dangerous journey and need to pay smugglers to get them into Greece or Italy. From there they will be processed. This is not a good system and should not be continued like this.

And you are giving a very easy answer to my question. We had about 1.5 million people last year. What if we continued with that open border policy and this year was 3 million, next year 6 million. Would you still think we need to process everyone like we do now?

Co-existence is possible. Look more of it as a melting pot - assimilation demands obliteration, whereas the melting pot analogy encourages co-existence and cooperation. It just takes time.

This needs to come from both sides. But we are seeing people closed off from society and not wanting to be a part of it. We see neighborhoods in France and Belgium that are sympathetic to terrorists. We have kids in school here cheering those attacks. We see people leaving from Western countries to kill people in Syria. That is not co-existence. That is 'us vs them' and I don't see that being solved for now. We have actually seen it grow worse and worse, instead of better.

 

[ParChor]

Co-existence is possible. Look more of it as a melting pot - assimilation demands obliteration, whereas the melting pot analogy encourages co-existence and cooperation. It just takes time.

Western European countries have had sizeable Muslim populations for decades now, notable ones being Britain and France. How much time do we need for these groups to "assimilate"?

 

[His Majesty]

I'd rather deal with the challenges of potential clashes between cultures than letting people die because of the walls of Fortress Europa just because people are too fragile to handle a group of people behaving different from themselves.

I think it's safe to say that after the attacks on Brussel and Paris you can scrap the word 'potential'.

 

[sphagnum]

They aren't as powerful because they have lost touch with their base. At least that is how it is over here. The workers party here stopped listening to the actual workers and time and again ignored their views. Those people have now gone to the right, or actually the far left which is also against unchecked immigration here.

Yes, but I view it from a different perspective. Ethnic issues have split the labor vote in the same way that it has been happening for decades in the US. The "left" parties are partly responsible for losing the confidence of the workers because they have over time ceded the economic argument to the liberals, which has allowed the economic situation to become worse so that racism and xenophobia can fester. It was always going to pop up with immigration but it has gotten particularly worse because the left is not strong at all anymore. The far right, meanwhile, are able to combine the concept of a strong state supporting the (white) workers with fear of brown people.

The workers need to have their economic concerns listened to but the left has failed to both do that and educate the working class about the need for cross-ethnic solidarity.

If the idea of proletarian internationalism was still prominent, this would still be happening but not to such a degree, I don't think.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, but I view it from a different perspective. Ethnic issues have split the labor vote in the same way that it has been happening for decades in the US. The "left" parties are partly responsible for losing the confidence of the workers because they have over time ceded the economic argument to the liberals, which has allowed the economic situation to become worse so that racism and xenophobia can fester. It was always going to pop up with immigration but it has gotten particularly worse because the left is not strong at all anymore. The far right, meanwhile, are able to combine the concept of a strong state supporting the (white) workers with fear of brown people.

The workers need to have their economic concerns listened to but the left has failed to both do that and educate the working class about the need for cross-ethnic solidarity.

If the idea of proletarian internationalism was still prominent, this would still be happening but not to such a degree, I don't think.

I don't know about it being better then. But I do agree that the left has lost touch and should present a better alternative to the far right when it comes to these issues. On economic issues I'm on the right myself, so we probably won't agree there anyway But we need both left and right to have a certain balance I think to prevent either side from going too far and it would be nice to see some left wing parties here come up with good options again for their base.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I voted for Hofer, because Asylum seekers harassed my girlfriend last week, these guys are scum.

Wtf.

I think it's safe to say that after the attacks on Brussel and Paris you can scrap the word 'potential'.

So because a few people out of MILLIONS commit such acts, we should reject muslim refugees?

 

[ClosingADoor]

So because a few people out of MILLIONS commit such acts, we should reject muslim refugees?

We should note that there are problems when these people are growing up here and committing those acts. And we should act on that. Not rejecting all Muslims, but addressing the issues we have within Muslim populations in Europe and trying to solve that.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think it's safe to say that after the attacks on Brussel and Paris you can scrap the word 'potential'.

The attacks on Brussels and Paris were committed by really well-integrated and assimilated people, though. IIRC all of them had even attended university in their respective countries (that being France and Belgium), were well-educated, well-spoken, did not display any radical views outward.
These people are trained to avoid detection. And these people are getting exactly what they want. The people of their target nations living in fear and starting to throw away their values in favour of security. Not even security, just the thought of security. They don't give a shit about muslims living in Europe or America, they just want to destroy the infidel. And other muslims count to that as well.
You have Christian extremism as well. KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, just to name a couple I can think of straight away.

 

[Nivash]

If you believe that, then I don't see how supporting mass immigration like this is a good thing also. That new society that will be created then should be mostly based on the free values we have in the West now, not accepting a ton of restrictive and oppressive rules that sadly the Middle-east has currently.

Hey, I'd love to keep things as they are. I hate change. But those are not the cards we've been given. The combined impacts of climate change and resource depletion are going to have a severe impact on what places on Earth are even inhabitable and this will force mass migrations. That's my point, it's completely inevitable and is what makes any attempt to keep the status quo completely futile. But that's still a couple decades away, it's just that we need to accept this fact instead of the shit show going on right now.

And as a secular humanist I will of course state that the new society should have laws based on such principles. At the same time though, we also need to recognise that the future will probably bring societies that don''t even have majorities anymore. I don't have any good answers for how to reconcile different values in that situation. For now, I simply put my trust in the ability of liberalism and humanism being strong enough to stand on their own. Secularism less so, sadly. But that's for the future.

For the present, those values are in no way, shape or form under attack - at least not by immigrants, the attacks seem to come from the far right if anything. In the present, we should help refugees because it's their right to recieve asylum and we should do it while understanding that the world is changing. Maybe we can even learn something for when shits starts to get truly bad in the future.

 

[ParChor]

Wtf.
So because a few people out of MILLIONS commit such acts, we should reject muslim refugees?

Care to have a million and some unskilled refugees come to your country every year? Be my guest. Their countries of origins are quickly replacing those numbers they export despite their overall poverty, so there's no burden on them. They'll just send a few more when scarce resources become even more scarce.

Surely taking in a few million refugees and a few imports of Mosques and imams will lower terrorist numbers. Throw away any semblance of a screening program while you're at it. Cultural and economic masochism at its finest.

 

[Lime]

The current asylum procedures would lead to millions of people being here for years. This will also draw more people, like we saw when Merkel said everyone was welcome. This has also lead to a lot of people risking their lives and dying.

The people at our doorstep would make a dangerous journey and need to pay smugglers to get them into Greece or Italy. From there they will be processed. This is not a good system and should not be continued like this.

which is why we need a better and proper process. But everyone is looking out for their own and when someone tries to lead by example, the remaining just sits back and does nothing.

And you are giving a very easy answer to my question. We had about 1.5 million people last year. What if we continued with that open border policy and this year was 3 million, next year 6 million. Would you still think we need to process everyone like we do now?

Open border policy? Our current border system is not open at all. It's incredibly closed in a legal sense.

Regardless, there are laws and policies in place in regards to how many asylum seekers you can take in and on what grounds. This affects the amount of people coming in and being distributed (ideally)

This needs to come from both sides. But we are seeing people closed off from society and not wanting to be a part of it. We see neighborhoods in France and Belgium that are sympathetic to terrorists. We have kids in school here cheering those attacks. We see people leaving from Western countries to kill people in Syria. That is not co-existence. That is 'us vs them' and I don't see that being solved for now. We have actually seen it grow worse and worse, instead of better.

You think they are doing this because of their culture? Of course not, it's interlocking mechanisms across social and economic factors that ostracize and marginalize them to the point where they end up poor and disillusioned and discriminated to the point of complete alienation.

I think it's safe to say that after the attacks on Brussel and Paris you can scrap the word 'potential'.

You are blaming millions of people for the actions of a few. This is also what the media do when talks about it - when it's about the Other, it's always as a group or "their culture", while when it's about one of our own (white christian European), then it's an individual act.

And again, you think they are doing this because of their culture? Of course not, it's interlocking mechanisms across social and economic factors that ostracize and marginalize them to the point where they end up poor and disillusioned and discriminated to the point of complete alienation.

Western European countries have had sizeable Muslim populations for decades now, notable ones being Britain and France. How much time do we need for these groups to "assimilate"?

They haven't? You don't think Muslim populations among many different ethnicities are doing fine and well? In Denmark, despite the extreme racism and discrimination, immigrants and their descendants are doing really well.

 

[Fliesen]

Just a drive-by:
More education would need more money.
Current top-parties aren't really into giving more money for educational purposes.

Even germany tries to get our teachers.
I know enough schools that would need a reality check, cause they're stuck somewhere 2000 with CD-Players and TV's with VHS.
Some universities aren't any better.

but how are we going to counter this:

forcibly change genders of young Austrian men?

from 2000 to 2011 the number of Austrians with a college degree went from under 14% to over 21%.
Austria, like many countries, has an education problem. But it isn't as closely connected to these election results as some claim it to be.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

We should note that there are problems when these people are growing up here and committing those acts. And we should act on that. Not rejecting all Muslims, but addressing the issues we have within Muslim populations in Europe and trying to solve that.

First, we are acting on this problem. Second, have you even read what I wrote? The Paris attack for example was commited by 9 people. There are 44 million Muslims in Europe. To insinuate that all those people are a threat isn't just racist, it's batshit insane. There is no terrorism problem with those people.

Care to have a million and some unskilled refugees come to your country every year? Be my guest. Their countries of origins are quickly replacing those numbers they export despite their overall poverty, so there's no burden on them. They'll just send a few more when scarce resources become even more scarce.

Surely taking in a few million refugees and a few imports of Mosques and imams will lower terrorist numbers. Throw away any semblance of a screening program while you're at it. Cultural and economic masochism at its finest.

There must be something wrong with my browser. I thought I was on Neogaf, but this post and others sound more like something from Breitbart or Stormfront.

 

[Lime]

We should note that there are problems when these people are growing up here and committing those acts. And we should act on that. Not rejecting all Muslims, but addressing the issues we have within Muslim populations in Europe and trying to solve that.

The issue is not as simple as just because the perps were Muslim. This is the exact problem that people run into over and over again. It's a complex issue motivated by many economic and social factors. Social class, education, racialized identity, gender, employment, upbringing, and a whole bunch of other things that feed into why these people do these terrible things, just like when White European criminals do terrible things.

We need to move beyond the simple, naive but easy explanation.

Again, when 1 Muslim Middle-Eastern does terrible shit, it's a problem with "their culture" and we need to close the borders immediately and set in police and surveillance in their neighborhoods, but when some Euro-Christian Dude does terrible shit, it was because of his upbringing or state of mind.

 

[His Majesty]

Wtf.
So because a few people out of MILLIONS commit such acts, we should reject muslim refugees?

But those few people are representative of a significant portion of the community. In Belgium the situation has been allowed to fester for much too long. The area around Brussels has turned into a breeding ground for young muslims with fundamentalist values. IS fighters are our main export product. You cannot possibly attribute that shift in ideology to just a few people? In that regard the attacks on Brussels and Paris are not isolated incidents but are part of a much larger issue in Belgium.

 

[JesseEwiak]

The issue is not as simple as just because the perps were Muslim. This is the exact problem that people run into over and over again. It's a complex issue motivated by many economic and social factors. Social class, education, racialized identity, gender, employment, upbringing, and a whole bunch of other things that feed into why these people do these terrible things, just like when White European criminals do terrible things.

We need to move beyond the simple, naive but easy explanation.

Again, when 1 Muslim Middle-Eastern does terrible shit, it's a problem with "their culture" and we need to close the borders immediately and set in police and surveillance in their neighborhoods, but when some Euro-Christian Dude does terrible shit, it was because of his upbringing or state of mind.

I mean, it's funny with all the hysteria about Muslims, but if you go by the "got to be careful" metric, why would anybody let an American into their country? We're violent bigoted assholes who like to shoot people all the time.

 

[ParChor]

There must be something wrong with my browser. I thought I was on Neogaf, but this post and others sound more like something from Breitbart or Stormfront.

You seem to misunderstand. I think that Germany didn't take in enough last year, it's quite a shame. They should've taken in 5 million. How racist of them and intolerant of them. After all, it's the West's fault that the Middle East is in disarray right now, and Germany is the part of the West obviously.

 

[Jay Sosa]

First, we are acting on this problem. Second, have you even read what I wrote? The Paris attack for example was commited by 9 people. There are 44 million Muslims in Europe. To insinuate that all those people are a threat isn't just racist, it's batshit insane.There is no terrorism problem with those people.

There's not? All the recent terror attacks in europe have been by muslim terrorists screaming allahu akbar. Can't remember the last time some christians killed journalists for making fun of jesus.

Not that something like this would make me vote some crazy ass right wing politician...just sayin

 

[spongebob340]

There must be something wrong with my browser. I thought I was on Neogaf, but this post and others sound more like something from Breitbart or Stormfront.

No argument detected. Just the good old "Nazikeule"....

 

[sphagnum]

But those few people are representative of a significant portion of the community. In Belgium the situation has been allowed to fester for much too long. The area around Brussels has turned into a breeding ground for young muslims with fundamentalist values. IS fighters are our main export product. You cannot possibly attribute that shift in ideology to just a few people? In that regard the attacks on Brussels and Paris are not isolated incidents but are part of a much larger issue in Belgium.

He's saying it's not a clash of civilizations, because it's an ideological group carrying out attacks, not the entirety of the religion. Most Muslim immigrants just want to escape the violence of their homelands, not blow up Europeans.

This isn't, like, Alexander invading the Persian Empire or something.

 

[JesseEwiak]

There's not? All the recent terror attacks in europe have been by muslim terrorists screaming allahu akbar. Can't remember the last time some christians killed journalists for making fun of jesus.

Not that something like this would make me vote some crazy ass right wing politician...just sayin

Is there a terrorism problem with white Norwegian males? I mean if we're going by percentage of the population who have committed terrorist acts and the number of people they killed, Breivik nearly matched the numbers of all of Muslim Europe in one day.

No argument detected. Just the good old "Nazikeule"....

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[Red Arremer]

After all, it's the West's fault that the Middle East is in disarray right now, and Germany is the part of the West obviously.

This is the first actually correct and sensible statement you made.
The vast majority of issues within the Middle East harken back to the mid 20th century and how the region was dealt with by the, mostly, British, Soviets and Americans during and after WW2. The conflict between Israel and the Arabic nations was almost entirely the fault of the British government, and the American government continued pouring oil into the flames. The fact Iran has become an Islamic Republic was also caused directly by the British and Americans who deposed the originally democratically elected Mohammad Mosaddegh.

And yes, Germany has gained massive profits from the destabilized Middle East. The region is a massive importer of weapons, after all.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Is there a terrorism problem with white Norwegian males? I mean if we're going by percentage of the population who have committed terrorist acts and the number of people they killed, Breivik nearly matched the numbers of all of Muslim Europe in one day.

That was one crazy guy and not highly organized terrorist cells.

 

[His Majesty]

The attacks on Brussels and Paris were committed by really well-integrated and assimilated people, though. IIRC all of them had even attended university in their respective countries (that being France and Belgium), were well-educated, well-spoken, did not display any radical views outward.
These people are trained to avoid detection. And these people are getting exactly what they want. The people of their target nations living in fear and starting to throw away their values in favour of security. Not even security, just the thought of security. They don't give a shit about muslims living in Europe or America, they just want to destroy the infidel. And other muslims count to that as well.
You have Christian extremism as well. KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, just to name a couple I can think of straight away.

Actually quite a few of the attackers were known to the police. Salah Abdeslam was questioned by the police following the raid in Verviers back in 2015 and Bakraoui was jailed for four years for shooting at police forces with a kalasjnikov.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

That was one crazy guy and not highly organized terrorist cells.

Except he did it for political reasons, so he's a terrorist

 

[sphagnum]

After all, it's the West's fault that the Middle East is in disarray right now.

The West does deserve a large part of the blame for that.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Except he did it for political reasons, so he's a terrorist

There's a difference between one delusional dude and a terrorist cell.

 

[Red Arremer]

Actually quite a few of the attackers were known to the police. Salah Abdeslam was questioned by the police following the raid in Verviers back in 2015 and Bakraoui was jailed for four years for shooting at police forces with a kalasjnikov.

I see. Thanks for the correction. I'm not sure that is fault of muslim refugees, then, though, or rather of the Belgian police not handling these people with proper care.

 

[JesseEwiak]

That was one crazy guy and not highly organized terrorist cells.

I did a quick check on the Wiki and since 9/11, there's been about 400 deaths attributed to Islamic terrorism in Europe (and a large part of that was the Madrid train bombing who it's still not 100% obvious who did it even though it's likely it's Islamic terrorists).

So, 400 deaths as a result of millions of people.

Breivik killed 77 people in one day and he only stopped because he ran out of victims.

There's a difference between one delusional dude and a terrorist cell.

Indeed, looking at the numbers, the one delusional guy is far more efficient and better at it than all of these Muslim terrorists running around.

 

[Lead]

The West does deserve a large part of the blame for that.

Even if we entertain the idea that this is somehow true, this is not a game with rules.

We don't have to do anything, there's no higher authority that gets to decide that we have to take in millions of asylum seekers.

There's conventions that are currently keeping us to our words, but those are not set in stone, and the current flood of refugees are really testing our patience with said conventions.

I'd honestly be surprised if the human rights convention isn't going to be revised if we're going to keep seeing thousands and thousands of refugees every month.

No nation wants this, not even Germany, not even Sweden.

 

[His Majesty]

I see. Thanks for the correction. I'm not sure that is fault of muslim refugees, then, though, or rather of the Belgian police not handling these people with proper care.

I'm not trying to blame the refugees here, I am just advocating for a stricter integration policy seeing as we are having so much trouble already with communities that should have been perfectly integrated by now .

 

[Lime]

I like how we are talking about a few Muslim terrorists from disenfranchised groups in lower social classes as a legitimate reason to vote for a racist parties who want to exclude millions of people based on their origin and religion, and also want to ban minarets, mosques, hijabs, and throw out citizens who don't act like the "normal" European (i.e. do Muslim things).