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[Familienoberhauptvogel]

http://derstandard.at/2000005451456/Muslime-in-Oesterreich (~ 70 % growth between 2001 - and 2012)

Where is the limit? Honest question. While we are discussing hundredthousands if not millions packing their bags.

I was talking about guest workers, who were incentivized to come here en masse. The limit is until they take us down with them, until we are forced to deal with our own issues now instead of when it is already too late. If you argue for decades the moral high ground you don't get to step away from it the moments shit hits the fan, you owe up to what you preached.

 

[JimmyRustler]

I was victim of racism, anti-semitism and homophobia. Right here in Austria. From Austrians. Not even provoked in any way - it's not like I wear a kippah or a rainbow flag on my shirt, I consider myself to be really subtle about the minorities I belong to. Yet nowhere else have I experienced this open racism, anti-semitism and homophobia as I have in Austria. A third of the people are voting for a racist, anti-semitic and homophobic party. What am I supposed to think? Do you really think I want to proudly announce that I am part of a society that has tried so hard to make me an outcast?

You talk about anti-semitism and homophobia and refuse to identify as Austrian but identify as.... Russian? Is this like, a joke or something?

Once you stop seeing yourself as an outcast you won't be one. Simple as that. Yeah, the occasional idiot will scream "Scheiß Ausländer" after you. So what? I heard that often enough. That doesn't change anything on my views. The Austrians often don't like themselves among each other. I can't tell you how often I heard jokes about us from Vorarlberg when I was doing my military time in Tirol.

I challenge you to tell someone that mistreats you because of your heritage that you see yourself as an Austrian and not as Russian. Then witness the change in mood. I managed to come along VERY well with some far right people once I made clear to them that I see myself as Austrian. This refusing of cultural identity with the country one lives in the root of all problems we have. I am fully convinced of that.

I'm not "proud to be a Russian", but I cannot deny the heritage I have. I want to embrace that heritage. And yes, I am well aware that there's racism, anti-semitism and homophobia in Russia as well, even worse than here. No, I don't want to move to Russia, because the political situation there is terrible. I don't want to move to Israel either. That has nothing to do with my cultural heritage, however.

Heritage... What the fuck is that even? Countries shift and change all the time. Your family might originate from Timbuktu for all you know. Don't set your heritage on where your parents come from, make your own. Just like with religion. You decide what you believe in, not your parents. So you can very well decide as what nation you see yourself part of. And seeing your comments I have huge troubles understanding why that is Russia in your case.

 

[Lime]

Then you agree that at some point we have to start saying no and deny people. Where is that limit for you? Can Denmark take a 100.000, 300.000, 500,000?

For some people it has already been reached. I think we can take a bit more in here in Holland, but not in the way we currently go about it.

We're the richest countries in the world. If we can't afford to provide at the very least temporary placement, then tax the rich.

And remember to tell the refugees that this isn't paradise and that other people also have a hard time here (unemployment, lack of education opportunities, health issues, racism, etc.)

 

[KingSnake]

6: German instead of "I don't understand".

I find this very funny for some reason. Probably because of the Wienerisch I hear every day.

 

[Lime]

This is just infuriating to read., so sorry Exorzist for me being blunt here.

Once you stop seeing yourself as an outcast you won't be one. Simple as that.

Wow, so much fuck this response to a very personal story about being an minority across sexuality, religion, and ethnicity. "just stop being yourself"

Yeah, the occasional idiot will scream "Scheiß Ausländer" after you. So what? I heard that often enough. That doesn't change anything on my views. The Austrians often don't like themselves among each other. I can't tell you how often I heard jokes about us from Vorarlberg when I was doing my military time in Tirol.

Good for you. This isn't the case for other people.

I challenge you to tell someone that mistreats you because of your heritage that you see yourself as an Austrian and not as Russian. Then witness the change in mood. I managed to come along VERY well with some far right people once I made clear to them that I see myself as Austrian. This refusing of cultural identity with the country one lives in the root of all problems we have. I am fully convinced of that.

Fuck that, it's not on us to submit ourselves to others because they're racist homophobes. No one should be required to become an Uncle Tom to their oppressive bigotry.

Heritage... What the fuck is that even? Countries shift and change all the time. Your family might originate from Timbuktu for all you know. Don't set your heritage on where your parents come from, make your own. Just like with religion. You decide what you believe in, not your parents. So you can very well decide as what nation you see yourself part of. And seeing your comments I have huge troubles understanding why that is Russia in your case.

You have no idea what heritage means and why that might mean something for someone.

 

[ClosingADoor]

We're the richest countries in the world. If we can't afford to provide at the very least temporary placement, then tax the rich.

And remember to tell the refugees that this isn't paradise and that other people also have a hard time here (unemployment, lack of education opportunities, health issues, racism, etc.)

That image is very outdated and only shows Syrian nationals. A lot of people coming into Europe have no papers or are coming from other countries also. Germany certainly has accepted more then that 100.000 shown there. Probably over a million applications by now.

The temporary placement also isn't so much the problem. But we all know most people will not leave again.

I asked you a few times already now, but do you see a limit somewhere or should we just keep accepting anyone who shows up?

 

[JimmyRustler]

This is just infuriating to read., so sorry Exorzist for me being blunt here.

Seriously, what kind of hypocrite are you? In this entire thread you vouch for discourse in this issue but here you just demand acceptance?

I won't even bother commenting the rest so please don't quote me any more. I'd rather have a serious discussion with serious people.

 

[Red Arremer]

You talk about anti-semitism and homophobia and refuse to identify as Austrian but identify as.... Russian? Is this like, a joke or something?

Honestly, I mostly identify as a Russian Jew. Which is a bit different. But no, it's not a joke. I don't identify myself as Russian because of the current political situation in Russia. If that was the case, I would definitely have gone to vote for Hofer in this election.
I also have a much more personal reason to discard my father's Austrian heritage, which I'd rather not indulge in sharing.

Once you stop seeing yourself as an outcast you won't be one. Simple as that. Yeah, the occasional idiot will scream "Scheiß Ausländer" after you. So what? I heard that often enough. That doesn't change anything on my views. The Austrians often don't like themselves among each other. I can't tell you how often I heard jokes about us from Vorarlberg when I was doing my military time in Tirol.

I've actually never been called "Scheiss Auslaender" because, as I mentioned before, I am anything but overt in my minority status. I have no accent but an Austrian one - in fact, I'm so good with the German language I grew up with that within few hours of talking to someone from a different region, I adopt the accent; I grew up in Upper Austria, but I speak perfect Viennese now.
Regardless, I've experienced a lot of casual racism. I've been harassed and even was victim of violence towards me because of my sexual orientation, however. And that was purely Austrians. And no, I did not mention that I'm also a Jew and don't see myself as Austrian. Only because of my sexuality.

I did not have this in the time I was in other countries, including the ones I lived in for a while, such as San Marino.

I challenge you to tell someone that mistreats you because of your heritage that you see yourself as an Austrian and not as Russian. Then witness the change in mood. I managed to come along VERY well with some far right people once I made clear to them that I see myself as Austrian. This refusing of cultural identity with the country one lives in the root of all problems we have. I am fully convinced of that.

Tell that to the Bosnian kid in my class in technical college who got harassed, by Austrians, because he had a "funny" name and accent, although he was born in Austria, had an Austrian passport, and identified with Austria.
If I meet someone who I can identify as being far right, I don't even bring up my cultural identity at all. I generally don't do that, though it's tough to hide given my name. I'm not an idiot, nor am I suicidal. I'd fear for my life if I told a far right winger those things.
It's not like I dance down the streets singing how awesome Russia is and how much Austria sucks.

Heritage... What the fuck is that even? Countries shift and change all the time. Your family might originate from Timbuktu for all you know. Don't set your heritage on where your parents come from, make your own. Just like with religion. You decide what you believe in, not your parents. So you can very well decide as what nation you see yourself part of. And seeing your comments I have huge troubles understanding why that is Russia in your case.

You seem to fail to grasp the difference between culture and nation. I do not condone the political situation in Russia, in the slightest. I appreciate that I can live in relative comfort here in Austria, even though I am getting oppressed. But not embracing the country I live in doesn't mean I can't appreciate its merits, nor that I cannot be a productive member of its society. I just don't wanna wave red-white-red flags. In fact, I don't want to wave any flags. I just don't see myself as nationalistic in any sense of the word, I just enjoy and embrace a lot of things that I've gotten from my mother's origin and family. Is that really so difficult to understand?

 

[KingSnake]

So, speaking about serious talks, how will President Hofer solve the issues with those damn Ausländer?

 

[Red Arremer]

That image is very outdated and only shows Syrian nationals. A lot of people coming into Europe have no papers or are coming from other countries also. Germany certainly has accepted more then that 100.000 shown there. Probably over a million applications by now.

The temporary placement also isn't so much the problem. But we all know most people will not leave again.

I asked you a few times already now, but do you see a limit somewhere or should we just keep accepting anyone who shows up?

Actually, if you ask most refugees, they will tell you that they will gladly return to their homes once the political situation in their respective country turns back to peace. I remember there was this clip of a really well-spoken Syrian kid who said that the refugees would stop if the other countries would help Syria, to essentially remove ISIS and perhaps give some aid in restoring the country's economy.
It's not like many refugees WANT to leave their homes and lives they built themselves. But they're essentially forced to due to war and slaughter and oppression.

So, speaking about serious talks, how will President Hofer solve the issues with those damn Ausländer?

By authorizing Kanzler Strache for a FP minority government, obviously.

 

[Toxi]

I challenge you to tell someone that mistreats you because of your heritage that you see yourself as an Austrian and not as Russian. Then witness the change in mood. I managed to come along VERY well with some far right people once I made clear to them that I see myself as Austrian. This refusing of cultural identity with the country one lives in the root of all problems we have. I am fully convinced of that.

Wouldn't the root of the problem in this case actually be people treating Red Arremer like shit despite him doing nothing wrong?

 

[KingSnake]

By authorizing Kanzler Strache for a FP minority government, obviously.

And? What's the end game here? Deport every Muslim? Deport everybody who speaks poor German? (that's a dangerous game for their own voting base though) Deport every immigrant? How many generations are we talking here? Shoot people at the borders? Get Austria out of EU? Re-unite with the good friends governed by Orban? Baptize every resident of Austria once again just to be sure?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

And? What's the end game here? Deport every Muslim? Deport everybody who speaks poor German? (that's a dangerous game for their own voting base though) Deport every immigrant? Shoot people at the borders? Get Austria out of EU? Re-unite with the good friends governed by Orban? Baptize every resident of Austria once again just to be sure?

Do you really think they thought that far? They've been opposition for more than a decade they only know to say 'no you're doing it wrong' and the ÖVP is the christian party.

 

[KingSnake]

Do you really think they thought that far? And the ÖVP is the christian party.

I know that ÖVP is the christian party, but I was thinking about ways to "solve the Muslim problem" from FPÖ point of view.

 

[Red Arremer]

And? What's the end game here? Deport every Muslim? Deport everybody who speaks poor German? (that's a dangerous game for their own voting base though) Deport every immigrant? How many generations are we talking here? Shoot people at the borders? Get Austria out of EU? Re-unite with the good friends governed by Orban? Baptize every resident of Austria once again just to be sure?

Psh, nah. Well, the deportations of muslims and shooting at people at the borders I can see hapening. But generally, just do the same thing as they did in the 5 years of their government under Schüssel. Pocket lots of money, try to unravel more government institutions, and when shit hits the fan, pretend like it never happened, try to find a pretty face with a nice smile like Strache, and try to cry about how the poor FPÖ getting marginalized is like the Jews back in the 1940s, and everyone immediately will forget all the shit the blue government did and vote them back into power, in 10 years tops.

Do you really think they thought that far? They've been opposition for more than a decade they only know to say 'no you're doing it wrong' and the ÖVP is the christian party.

I dunno about that.

 

[KingSnake]

Psh, nah. Well, the deportations of muslims and shooting at people at the borders I can see hapening. But generally, just do the same thing as they did in the 5 years of their government under Schüssel. Pocket lots of money, try to unravel more government institutions, and when shit hits the fan, pretend like it never happened, try to find a pretty face with a nice smile like Strache, and try to cry about how the poor FPÖ getting marginalized is like the Jews back in the 1940s, and everyone immediately will forget all the shit the blue government did and vote them back into power, in 10 years tops.

Well, at least there are still some banks and provinces left to bankrupt.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, at least there are still some banks and provinces left to bankrupt.

Since Carinthia is in shambles, which one do you think they're gonna destroy next? I'm banking on Tyrol or Salzburg. Upper Austria might be a good candidate too.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Honestly, I mostly identify as a Russian Jew. Which is a bit different. But no, it's not a joke. I don't identify myself as Russian because of the current political situation in Russia. If that was the case, I would definitely have gone to vote for Hofer in this election.
I also have a much more personal reason to discard my father's Austrian heritage, which I'd rather not indulge in sharing.

I've actually never been called "Scheiss Auslaender" because, as I mentioned before, I am anything but overt in my minority status. I have no accent but an Austrian one - in fact, I'm so good with the German language I grew up with that within few hours of talking to someone from a different region, I adopt the accent; I grew up in Upper Austria, but I speak perfect Viennese now.
Regardless, I've experienced a lot of casual racism. I've been harassed and even was victim of violence towards me because of my sexual orientation, however. And that was purely Austrians. And no, I did not mention that I'm also a Jew and don't see myself as Austrian. Only because of my sexuality.

I did not have this in the time I was in other countries, including the ones I lived in for a while, such as San Marino.

I see. Well, I'm really sorry to hear that. I cannot say how judgemental people here are towards gays. Given that fact itself quite a lot I guess. Hard to judge you for your views in that case.

Tell that to the Bosnian kid in my class in technical college who got harassed, by Austrians, because he had a "funny" name and accent, although he was born in Austria, had an Austrian passport, and identified with Austria.

Like I said, there are idiots everywhere. I don't think one should let his own views be changed by them. Most people are decent. And I say that as someone from Vorarlberg, which has always been pretty right winged IIRC.

If I meet someone who I can identify as being far right, I don't even bring up my cultural identity at all. I generally don't do that, though it's tough to hide given my name. I'm not an idiot, nor am I suicidal. I'd fear for my life if I told a far right winger those things.

Really? That's kinda sad. There is usually nothing to be afraid of in my experience.

You seem to fail to grasp the difference between culture and nation. I do not condone the political situation in Russia, in the slightest. I appreciate that I can live in relative comfort here in Austria, even though I am getting oppressed. But not embracing the country I live in doesn't mean I can't appreciate its merits, nor that I cannot be a productive member of its society. I just don't wanna wave red-white-red flags. In fact, I don't want to wave any flags. I just don't see myself as nationalistic in any sense of the word, I just enjoy and embrace a lot of things that I've gotten from my mother's origin and family. Is that really so difficult to understand?

If you put it like this, no. I guess I misunderstood you. I have no problems with people like you. I'm only bothered by people who tell me they're proud "countrymen XY" but live and enjoy life here but would never think of living in country XY.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Since Carinthia is in shambles, which one do you think they're gonna destroy next? I'm banking on Tyrol or Salzburg. Upper Austria might be a good candidate too.

Salzburg came pretty close to that already.

 

[Red Arremer]

Salzburg came pretty close to that already.

And the FP didn't even have anything to do with it! What a shame, they could've made so much cash. They really should drive the nail into the coffin there. Salzburg is after all one of the less blue regions in Austria - they could blame it all on the SPÖ, too. Maybe they could even ruin 2 regions in one term.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Wouldn't the root of the problem in this case actually be people treating Red Arremer like shit despite him doing nothing wrong?

It is. But him being treated wrong is due to sexual orientation and, while just as important, that is a different issue and doesn't have much to do with what I was talking about. You can't change your sexual orientation but you can you cultural identity.

 

[Red Arremer]

-snip-

I'm glad I could explain my experiences and make you understand why I reject my Austrian heritage. Of course, I'm just one person. There's other people with other experiences, but especially for minorities who grew up in more rural areas of Austria like me, I would argue that it's going to be very similar experiences, with a very similar rejection of the Austria...nity. It's hard to identify yourself with a society that treats you like a second rate citizen.

And sadly, the same can be said about many immigrants, as well. You have a whole political party that is dedicated solely to institutionalizing making immigrants second rate citizens. A third of the population of the country they decided to build their new lives in is voting for that party. A third of the population is basically telling them that they do not belong here, that they should leave or be disadvantaged in almost any aspect.

I can fully understand why they would rather identify with the country they came from. Yes, that country might be in shambles, but at the very least there, they did not get treated like outcasts for having a weird name or not being able to speak the language without an accent or having a darker tone of skin.

 

[michaelius]

Actually, if you ask most refugees, they will tell you that they will gladly return to their homes once the political situation in their respective country turns back to peace. I remember there was this clip of a really well-spoken Syrian kid who said that the refugees would stop if the other countries would help Syria, to essentially remove ISIS and perhaps give some aid in restoring the country's economy.
It's not like many refugees WANT to leave their homes and lives they built themselves. But they're essentially forced to due to war and slaughter and oppression.

But are those people doing enough themselves ?

Organizations like ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda cannot grow without support and tolerance of local populations.

Iraq army showed total lack of will to fight letting ISIS grow so much without serious resistance. Outside of Kurds I can't see any group willing to die for their cause and make attacker pay with their blood in the region.

Technically we have opposing forces in Syria but those are "moderate" only when compared to ISIS or Assad dictatorship.

 

[JimmyRustler]

I'm glad I could explain my experiences and make you understand why I reject my Austrian heritage. Of course, I'm just one person. There's other people with other experiences, but especially for minorities who grew up in more rural areas of Austria like me, I would argue that it's going to be very similar experiences, with a very similar rejection of the Austria...nity. It's hard to identify yourself with a society that treats you like a second rate citizen.

Putting things like sexual orientation and focusing on the cultural aspect, I'd argue that people are only treated different (again on large scale, excluding the casual moron) if they don't assimilate. And that is very well something the immgrants can work on for themselves.

And sadly, the same can be said about many immigrants, as well. You have a whole political party that is dedicated solely to institutionalizing making immigrants second rate citizens. A third of the population of the country they decided to build their new lives in is voting for that party. A third of the population is basically telling them that they do not belong here, that they should leave or be disadvantaged in almost any aspect.

You'd be surprised how many long term immigrants vote for FPÖ themselves... I met quite a few.

I can fully understand why they would rather identify with the country they came from. Yes, that country might be in shambles, but at the very least there, they did not get treated like outcasts for having a weird name or not being able to speak the language without an accent or having a darker tone of skin.

Again, so why don't they go back? Being former Yugoslavian I know little to none fellow countrymen who went back longer after the war. Countries down there may be socially "different" but they ain't really in shambles any more. But no one wants to leave despite all the proudness. I just hate it when I hear this.

 

[ParChor]

Again, so why don't they go back? Being former Yugoslavian I know little to none fellow countrymen who went back longer after the war. Countries down there may be socially "different" but they ain't really in shambles any more. But no one wants to leave despite all the proudness. I just hate it when I hear this.

What Red Arremer can't seem to grasp is that the overwhelming majority of the refugees coming to Europe in the hundreds of thousands are a mix of people who are not only leaving because their home countries are in shambles and has been torn away by wars, but quite a few of them are coming from countries more or less safe countries like Iran and Pakistan and are leaving just because of economic opportunity, hence they're economic migrants. Wouldn't you do the same? It takes enormous humanitarian and economic effort to rebuild a country, but even if you build a foundation, it will take at least a decade or even more to return to the same living standards as before the unrest or conflict. And as if those refugees will be scrambling to return when they have finally settled down in Western Europe when they have probably found employment and shelter.

The notion that a lot of refugees coming to Europe will return when their home countries are "safe" again is laughable, even more ironic when a plurality of them are adult males who are fit to help their country in the time of war and unrest.

The establishment of a sane asylum system that will weed out economic migrants and take in actual humanitarian refugees (a.k.a. refugees who can prove that they're escaping from a war-torn country like Syria and Afghanistan) is the sensible solution. Unfortunately, there is not such a system in place and people are voting out of frustration for a party are promising for what the establishment parties have failed to provide or implement.

 

[KingSnake]

The establishment of a sane asylum system that will weed out economic migrants and take in actual humanitarian refugees (a.k.a. refugees who can prove that they're escaping from a war-torn country like Syria and Afghanistan) is the sensible solution. Unfortunately, there is not such a system in place and people are voting out of frustration for a party are promising for what the establishment parties have failed to provide or implement.

Is FPÖ promising a sane asylum system?

 

[ParChor]

Is FPÖ promising a sane asylum system?

They're supposedly promising not to take in anyone, which to a lot of people's eyes is better than nothing at all . Opportunistic charlatans they may be as politicians and public servants, I find it odd you can't put yourself in the shoes of the so-called "racists" and "Islamaphobes" who can doing this out of moderate propensities, not that they have xenophobic notions.

I take it you would be surprised how many less people would vote for FPO if the voting public can be assured that they would be taking in a sensible amount of refugees who ARE in fact refugees coming in from conflict-torn countries, without economic repercussions. I would be voting for the Greens or any left-wing party unless they assure me how many they are willing to take.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Even the existing system doesn't intend to take in economic migrants. The system isn't for them and has never has been. Processing =/=acceptance of asylum

 

[Red Arremer]

They're supposedly promising not to take in anyone, which to a lot of people's eyes is better than nothing at all . Opportunistic charlatans they may be as politicians and public servants, I find it odd you can't put yourself in the shoes of the so-called "racists" and "Islamaphobes" who can doing this out of moderate propensities, not that they have xenophobic notions.

I take it you would be surprised how many less people would vote for FPO if the voting public can be assured that they would be taking in a sensible amount of refugees who ARE in fact refugees coming in from conflict-torn countries, without economic repercussions.

Perhaps you should invest in looking into Austrian parties and their policies, especially in the past year, before making bold statements like that.

Both current government parties have taken measurements to limit immigration. ÖVP in general has very much similar policy ideas to FPÖ but with a lot more moderate tonation. However, people are upset with ÖVP as a government party, which is why it is failing. The immigration/asylum topic is just a very big one where the FPÖ is able to contour. SPÖ also used to be a lot more open about immigration but has started to step more towards the right in that regard.
Also FPÖ has been making gains long time before the current refugee crisis, and a long time before Islam was even a particularly big topic. Back then it was Eastern Europeans that were the big threat. Those ex-Yugoslavians whom the FPÖ nowadays tries to get into their pocket.

But why am I even arguing. For you, there's only black and white. And of course anybody who disagrees with you wants nothing more than Europe to be flooded with refugees and immigrants without any limitations of any sort, mosques built on every street corner, with imams shouting all day long and everyone being converted to Islam.

 

[KingSnake]

They're supposedly promising not to take in anyone, which to a lot of people's eyes is better than nothing at all .

Isn't this how the current system is supposed to function according to the law? So what will they do on top of the law?

And will they accept Muslim asylum seekers from war zones?

 

[ParChor]

But why am I even arguing. For you, there's only black and white. And of course anybody who disagrees with you wants nothing more than Europe to be flooded with refugees and immigrants without any limitations of any sort, mosques built on every street corner, with imams shouting all day long and everyone being converted to Islam.

Having concerns about the asylum policies is not thinking in "black and white". But keep that self-righteous tone. You seem to have a narrow view of me and think I look down on everyone who's not from my clique.

 

[Dingens]

and once again the areas least effected by immigration opposed it the strongest by voting for these charlatans...

Those fucking pricks on the country side. they wouldn't even know what an asylum seeker looks like


edit:

Multiculturalism can work in Europe if the cultures coming in are by and large compatible with a liberal society, like Chinese, Japanese, etc. The only problem is what is a moderate way to make sure all people from illiberal cultures are integrated and are part of society? People in this thread keep saying 'mainstream parties don't offer a moderate solution'. What is a realistic way of doing this? You can't really force people to live in certain places, people live where they can afford.

actually it's quite the opposite... I made the observation, that immigrants from the Balkan region or turkey are way more integrated into society than Chinese immigrants for example. Chinese immigrants tend to live in their own bubble with hardly any outside contact - I guess they get ignored because they just don't bother anyone (which in itself is a sign that they may be living in a parallel society). Whereas "Muslim" immigrants are highly visible in everyday live. They tend to take part in community activities - or create their own. I have never seen any chinese migrants creating community projects. (despite there being more than enough around)

Yes, but I view it from a different perspective. Ethnic issues have split the labor vote in the same way that it has been happening for decades in the US. The "left" parties are partly responsible for losing the confidence of the workers because they have over time ceded the economic argument to the liberals, which has allowed the economic situation to become worse so that racism and xenophobia can fester. It was always going to pop up with immigration but it has gotten particularly worse because the left is not strong at all anymore. The far right, meanwhile, are able to combine the concept of a strong state supporting the (white) workers with fear of brown people.

The workers need to have their economic concerns listened to but the left has failed to both do that and educate the working class about the need for cross-ethnic solidarity.

If the idea of proletarian internationalism was still prominent, this would still be happening but not to such a degree, I don't think.

pretty much, this is just the next stage of our contiguous spiral downwards.
It's about future perspective or rather the lack thereof. I guess we could call it backing people into a corner. At first we were doing it to the poor in other countries, next to the migrants in ours, and "our own" poor are next in line. It's the classical "they took my job" rhetoric. lower and lower middle class people a scared to death of losing their economic and social position. the graph below is a pretty good indicator of that. There is a reason mostly young men are voting for right wings. those are the ones worried about their future, their chances for a decent job, security in live and the outlook of a satisfying pension at the end.
It's also part of the reason why integration seemingly works better in the US. US citizens have hardly any social security to worry about (they still worry about the little they got, which should give you an idea how deeply people in europe care about their vastly superior welfare system). Part of the Xenophobia is simply fuelled by fears that the system might not be able to handle all the new arrivals. And that it's inherently unfair, that others are going to profit from something from the get go which took a countries citizens decades to create. It's a crucial point Americans are usually unable to comprehend.

tldr: the German word "abstiegsangst" is pretty much on point I'd say

but how are we going to counter this:

forcibly change genders of young Austrian men?

from 2000 to 2011 the number of Austrians with a college degree went from under 14% to over 21%.
Austria, like many countries, has an education problem. But it isn't as closely connected to these election results as some claim it to be.

which is pretty much meaningless when talking about Austrian education, as the quite successful HTL-system made (and still makes) college degrees practically irrelevant to a huge chunk of the population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6here_Technische_Lehranstalt
up until recently, HTL gratduates had the best job opportunities on the labour market, without wasting 3-6 years in university. it's pretty much the main reason why the academics rate is as low as it is.

 

[Hisoka]

I find this very funny for some reason. Probably because of the Wienerisch I hear every day.

Wienerisch? Really? You think that's funny? That's not even NEAR the fun you have in rural places.

How did you guys even survive without a Lugner.gif or Lugner.jpg on this page? Should I share another one? One Lugner every page?

 

[Lead]

80% of criminals in Copenhagen (Denmark) is foreigners shows new files provided by the Danish Police.

It's primarily Romanian and Nigerian foreigners.

Source

And people question why we don't want open borders any longer?
These 80% are also only people without Danish passports, I wonder how much immigrants and children of immigrants represent the last 20%...

 

[daniels]

If I was a muslim and walked down the street to the nearest store to buy bread and saw posters like this stuck to every corner:


Then I could see myself finding other Muslims and trying to oppose this. It would be very easy in that environment to radicalize and become violent.

If you get radical and violent because of these posters you were never a moderate to begin with.

 

[KingSnake]

If you get radical and violent because of these posters you were never a moderate to begin with.

Which can be said also about the FPÖ voters who use recent events as an excuse for voting an extremist party.

 

[fanboi]

If you get radical and violent because of these posters you were never a moderate to begin with.

If everyone is against you and all you hear, see and read is hate against you as a person I would say even if you are a moderate in your beliefs you could become violent and dangerous.

Is it right? Of course not, but outside threat makes us do stuff that we never thought was possible.

 

[daniels]

If everyone is against you and all you hear, see and read is hate against you as a person I would say even if you are a moderate in your beliefs you could become violent and dangerous.

Is it right? Of course not, but outside threat makes us do stuff that we never thought was possible.

This would only work if there are no minority's that have it worse than Muslims but they exist (many of them in Muslim majority countries btw) and they dont get radical.
Solve this, not ignore it and we can have an honest discussion that is closer to the truth than whatever it is what we currently have.

 

[MistakenMobius]

If everyone is against you and all you hear, see and read is hate against you as a person I would say even if you are a moderate in your beliefs you could become violent and dangerous.

Is it right? Of course not, but outside threat makes us do stuff that we never thought was possible.

Unrealistic,
Christian extremist would have created a hundred Isis in France if that was really working that way...
The worst we had is like a few demonstrations of old farts.
Or you have to go back to 80's for Nicolas du Chardonnay craziness

 

[Endorphineforeverybody]

Whats going on here! Really so much hyperbolic statements in this thread, its not even funny anymore.

It was the first round of a Präsidentschaftswahl and not the Nationalrat. So the outcome will change in the second election. VdB will win this thing because a lot of people like myself will only go to the second election. He will gain the votes from SPÖ and Griss, should be enough to take the lead. Overall the president has little power over the decisions in Austria. It was an election where people gave the middle finger to the government. Simple as that.

To the whole Carinthia situation. Could have happened under the SPÖ too. And its not compareable with what happend in Salzburg.

And i have to say it. Because its under a complete false light. Maybe some of you should party more and see how some people are acting. And how women are treated from some people of a sexually misguided religion and how it is to be an Austrian sometimes. So its the other way round too. You cant be so sensible or you are going down.

You think the political climate gets better with stories like from Saturday of this 21 year old girl.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

The "we have to vote far right because immigrants" excuse is idiotic and should not be used to excuse stupid people, racists and bigots. Thats dangerous. Especially since there is no two party system. There are dozens of them yet people go far right because brown people...its disgusting, as if everyone waited for shit to hit to fan to have an excuse to act as a piece of shit. (all of europe related)

Pretty disappointed.

In Germany, stupid fucks (its the most kindly description I can use) are willing to vote for a POS party as AfD because brown people and muslims, all while the AfD is anti lgbt, women should stay at home, climate change is a scam yada yada.

 

[MistakenMobius]

The "we have to vote far right because immigrants" excuse is idiotic and should not be used to excuse stupid people, racists and bigots. Thats dangerous. Especially since there is no two party system. There are dozens of them yet people go far right because brown people...its disgusting, as if everyone waited for shit to hit to fan to have an excuse to act as a piece of shit.

People vote far right and far left because they are not the regular guys.
Far right being the only one expressing themselves on the topic is only the fault of the other parties

 

[derFeef]

People voted right because people want to vote right. If they wanted to give the middle finger to the whole goverment, Lugner would have won.

 

[Kathian]

The "we have to vote far right because immigrants" excuse is idiotic and should not be used to excuse stupid people, racists and bigots. Thats dangerous. Especially since there is no two party system. There are dozens of them yet people go far right because brown people...its disgusting, as if everyone waited for shit to hit to fan to have an excuse to act as a piece of shit. (all of europe related)

Pretty disappointed.

In Germany, stupid fucks (its the most kindly description I can use) are willing to vote for a POS party as AfD because brown people and muslims, all while the AfD is anti lgbt, women should stay at home, climate change is a scam yada yada.

This is what happens when the centre parties get out of touch.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The "we have to vote far right because immigrants" excuse is idiotic and should not be used to excuse stupid people, racists and bigots. Thats dangerous. Especially since there is no two party system. There are dozens of them yet people go far right because brown people...its disgusting, as if everyone waited for shit to hit to fan to have an excuse to act as a piece of shit. (all of europe related)

Or people vote that way because other parties are not doing anything about the issues and problems they see in their society. People vote this way because they see no alternative and other parties have failed them.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

80% of criminals in Copenhagen (Denmark) is foreigners shows new files provided by the Danish Police.

It's primarily Romanian and Nigerian foreigners.

Source

And people question why we don't want open borders any longer?
These 80% are also only people without Danish passports, I wonder how much immigrants and children of immigrants represent the last 20%...

I'm not sure how closed borders would help against romanians? Unless you want to have all borders closed to the danish as well, 4 freedoms and all.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Or people vote that way because other parties are not doing anything about the issues and problems they see in their society. People vote this way because they see no alternative and other parties have failed them.

Yes, and I storngly believe their issues and problems at the core of their hearts is too many non white people.

It was probably tolerable before the refugee influx but the crisis is the perfect excuse for a lot of "civil, open and liberal" europeans to show their true colors.

You dont vote for bigots, xenophobes and racists just because they have the solution for one agenda but simultaneously introduce a whole new package of problems. Its naive and stupid.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, and I storngly believe their issues and problems at the core of their hearts is too many non white people.

It was probably tolerable before the refugee influx but the crisis is the perfect excuse for a lot of "civil, open and liberal" europeans to show their true colors.

I think it isn't as simple as that. There are issues that we can trace back some years and even decades already when it comes to immigration in European countries. That has built up anger within the population and they don't see their politicians handling it.

The refugee crisis and terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels certainly played a part, but other issues are at play for longer already.

You dont vote for bigots, xenophobes and racists just because they have the solution for one agenda but simultaneously introduce a whole new package of problems. Its naive and stupid.

I am not Austrian, so don't know these political parties that well. But if it is the same as here, then the traditional parties basically ignore the immigration issues for a long time already. It would also be naive to think anything will change there by voting the same party time and again. I don't think voting in these far right parties will be a good solution also, but the other parties need to wake up and need to come up with solutions or communicate them better if they think they have them already.

 

[hadareud]

People voted right because people want to vote right. If they wanted to give the middle finger to the whole goverment, Lugner would have won.

Pretty much.

Maybe it's time to stop the thinking that people vote for the radical right because they are disenchanted by the political establishment and because they are protesting against it.

I suspect the reason they are voting for the radical right is because they think that they best represent their views.

Much like you should admit to yourself that you are likely a homophobe when you begin a sentence with "I'm not a homophobe, but..." or a racist when you begin a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but...", you should also admit to yourself that your political views are likely far right nationalist if you vote for far right nationalists.

I feel that the line that the reason for voting for these parties is some sort of a protest against the establishment is self denial in those voting for them on the one side, and the denial of the unpalatable idea that the ceiling for those parties is much much higher than anyone cares to admit, on the other.

We will soon see that at the very least close to half of the Austrian electorate has no problem to vote for a racist (German) nationalist as their president. Very probably more than half of the electorate. And soon after we will very likely see a far right radical party become the largest political party in the country by some distance.

"But it's because the people are pissed off with the status quo..." is not the reason for that, imo.

 

[industrian]

1) He will be crushed in the second round of voting.
2) The Austrian President is a useless "ceremonial" role.
3) The European republic system that essentially just replaces useless monarchs with useless presidents is stupid.