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[Jay Sosa]

I did a quick check on the Wiki and since 9/11, there's been about 400 deaths attributed to Islamic terrorism in Europe (and a large part of that was the Madrid train bombing who it's still not 100% obvious who did it even though it's likely it's Islamic terrorists).

So, 400 deaths as a result of millions of people.

Breivik killed 77 people in one day and he only stopped because he ran out of victims.



Indeed, looking at the numbers, the one delusional guy is far more efficient and better at it than all of these Muslim terrorists running around.

k you win

 

[spongebob340]

I did a quick check on the Wiki and since 9/11, there's been about 400 deaths attributed to Islamic terrorism in Europe (and a large part of that was the Madrid train bombing who it's still not 100% obvious who did it even though it's likely it's Islamic terrorists).

So, 400 deaths as a result of millions of people.

Breivik killed 77 people in one day and he only stopped because he ran out of victims.



Indeed, looking at the numbers, the one delusional guy is far more efficient and better at it than all of these Muslim terrorists running around.

Yeah, you are right about Europe. Scale things up to Global.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Yeah, you are right about Europe. Scale things up to Global.

I mean, yes, in poor Muslim countries, all the terrorism is going to come from there within those countries. Not a lot of French guys doing terror in Libya. We were talking about the inherent danger that having Muslim people in Europe has caused and so far, it's 400 terroristic deaths from millions of people versus 77 deaths from one dude. So, going by the numbers, the safest thing to do is nuke Norway.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not trying to blame the refugees here, I am just advocating for a stricter integration policy seeing as we are having so much trouble already with communities that should have been perfectly integrated by now .

I'm not sure if stricter integration policy is the key to victory here, though. Because as mentioned, most of those islamic terrorists are actually very well-integrated in their host country. They know exactly how to not be on the radar. That's the crux here.

Additional surveillance, security measures, immigration and asylum policies - are they really going to solve this problem? Is it even a problem that we have to exchange our freedoms and values for?

 

[sphagnum]

Even if we entertain the idea that this is somehow true

It is.

this is not a game with rules

We don't have to do anything, there's no higher authority that gets to decide that we have to take in millions of asylum seekers.

It has nothing to do with rules. It has to do with helping prevent suffering, displaced people from dying. Not that you care, since:

I'm sorry but I don't know any of these people, and if it means they have to die for me to raise my children in this great country as I was raised, then so be it.

 

[spongebob340]

I like how we are talking about a few Muslim terrorists from disenfranchised groups in lower social classes as a legitimate reason to vote for a racist parties who want to exclude millions of people based on their origin and religion, and also want to ban minarets, mosques, hijabs, and throw out citizens who don't act like the "normal" European (i.e. do Muslim things).

http://religion.orf.at/stories/2619481/ (in German)

short: a big part of the muslim population in austria have some pretty scary views for the 21th century.

Action - Reaction

 

[Lime]

I'm not trying to blame the refugees here, I am just advocating for a stricter integration policy seeing as we are having so much trouble already with communities that should have been perfectly integrated by now .

How the fuck can you become perfectly integrated when you can't take the bus without someone spitting in your face for wearing a scarf? How can you become perfectly integrated when you have to change your name on your job application or your housing lease because otherwise you won't get the job or the house? When you see politicians across the spectrum (left and right) on TV and in news papers talk about you as if you're a parasite to society and a welfare queen? When you're always the one for random checks in the airport? When you can't go to clubs or parties because the doormen "don't want any trouble"? When you're stowed into a concrete building along with a whole bunch of non-native people? When you see how laws are being implemented to ? When you are being asked to apologize for something some dude who has the same religion as you did? When you're going to an exam and some old lady calls the police because she's worried that you're a terrorist and a national hysteria breaks loose while you're sitting at the exam? When films and tv shows don't represent you at all.

How can you become perfectly integrated under such conditions?

 

[Hisoka]

but how are we going to counter this:

forcibly change genders of young Austrian men?

from 2000 to 2011 the number of Austrians with a college degree went from under 14% to over 21%.
Austria, like many countries, has an education problem. But it isn't as closely connected to these election results as some claim it to be.

ZERO VOTES FROM WOMEN UNTIL 29!

He is the important thing here, right?

Spoiler

I don't know

 

[ClosingADoor]

First, we are acting on this problem. Second, have you even read what I wrote? The Paris attack for example was commited by 9 people. There are 44 million Muslims in Europe. To insinuate that all those people are a threat isn't just racist, it's batshit insane. There is no terrorism problem with those people.

I did not say all Muslims are a threat. I said there are problems within those communities that should be looked at and solved. That is trying to find a solution to problems, nothing racist about it.

The issue is not as simple as just because the perps were Muslim. This is the exact problem that people run into over and over again. It's a complex issue motivated by many economic and social factors. Social class, education, racialized identity, gender, employment, upbringing, and a whole bunch of other things that feed into why these people do these terrible things, just like when White European criminals do terrible things.

We need to move beyond the simple, naive but easy explanation.

Again, when 1 Muslim Middle-Eastern does terrible shit, it's a problem with "their culture" and we need to close the borders immediately and set in police and surveillance in their neighborhoods, but when some Euro-Christian Dude does terrible shit, it was because of his upbringing or state of mind.

I didn't say their culture is the problem here, although the views on things like women's rights and such within the Muslim world should be improved. I said there are problems within the Muslim communities in Europe. That is clear for anyone to see when looking at the numbers and following the news a bit. These issues are not simple ones, but should be solved. I don't think adding more immigration is going to be helping in finding that solution.

 

[Lime]

Even if we entertain the idea that this is somehow true, this is not a game with rules.

We don't have to do anything, there's no higher authority that gets to decide that we have to take in millions of asylum seekers.

There's conventions that are currently keeping us to our words, but those are not set in stone, and the current flood of refugees are really testing our patience with said conventions.

I'd honestly be surprised if the human rights convention isn't going to be revised if we're going to keep seeing thousands and thousands of refugees every month.

No nation wants this, not even Germany, not even Sweden.

Moral values perhaps? Empathy? Caring for other people so that they don't die? You see someone drowning out in some lake and just because there's no higher authority to punish you, you won't be bothered to save him because you'll get your clothes wet?

I didn't say their culture is the problem here. I said there are problems within the Muslim communities in Europe. That is clear for anyone to see when looking at the numbers and following the news a bit. These issues are not simple ones, but should be solved. I don't think adding more immigration is going to be helping in finding that solution.

I'm sorry but I'm getting really frustrated here along with the Breitbart racism coming from other posters in this thread. This is the exact thing I am saying. There is a multitude of problems with various factors that serve as a problem for some disenfranchised communities in European countries. But why the hell should that mean that we can't take in any Muslim immigrants or refugees? You're saying that their problem is basically because of who they are (and/or what we do with them).

 

[Red Arremer]

http://religion.orf.at/stories/2619481/ (in German)

short: a big part of the muslim population in austria have some pretty scary views for the 21th century.

Action - Reaction

If I was a muslim and walked down the street to the nearest store to buy bread and saw posters like this stuck to every corner:

Then I could see myself finding other Muslims and trying to oppose this. It would be very easy in that environment to radicalize and become violent.

 

[victreeb3l]

What are those posters saying?

 

[ParChor]

.

 

[Lead]

Moral values perhaps? Empathy? Caring for other people so that they don't die? You see someone drowning out in some lake and just because there's no higher authority to punish you, you won't be bothered to save him because you'll get your clothes wet?

Well you're stating the obvious.

The problem is, if it came right down to it, there's probably tens of millions of people on the brink of dying right now, it's just impossible to help without it having severe consequences to ourselves.

And yes, it that way I'm selfish, I would rather live a great life, and have my children and family grown up in a wealthy country where they can live a great life, than helping people and giving that up.

If that's somehow racist (even though my reservations are never based on race, sometimes on culture) then so be it.
You want to call it tribalism (I guess it is) so be it.

 

[spongebob340]

If I was a muslim and walked down the street to the nearest store to buy bread and saw posters like this stuck to every corner:


Then I could see myself finding other Muslims and trying to oppose this. It would be very easy in that environment to radicalize and become violent.

So some posters are to blame for homophobic thinking and disrespecting woman etc.

Poor excuse.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Moral values perhaps? Empathy? Caring for other people so that they don't die? You see someone drowning out in some lake and just because there's no higher authority to punish you, you won't be bothered to save him because you'll get your clothes wet?

The open border policy by Merkel played into the hands of smugglers and because of that people died at sea. The current policies are not good ones, since it forces people to make a dangerous journey.

And even then there is always a limit to how many people you can help. That is a sad truth, but the way it is. There are millions upon millions of people wanting a better life. But that simply isn't possible.

I'm sorry but I'm getting really frustrated here along with the Breitbart racism coming from other posters in this thread. This is the exact thing I am saying. There is a multitude of problems with various factors that serve as a problem for some disenfranchised communities in European countries. But why the hell should that mean that we can't take in any Muslim immigrants or refugees? You're saying that their problem is basically because of who they are (and/or what we do with them).

Yes, part of the problem is with the people themselves that hold opposing views to most here in the West. Some extreme cases even outright hate it. Another part is on the failed integration policies.

I'm just saying we can't keep on adding people all the time while we are still going through the process of integrating people already here. That just leads to conflict like we are seeing now.

I'm all for helping people, but unfortunately we can't help everyone at the same time.

 

[Red Arremer]

What are those posters saying?

1: We reward honest work, the SPÖ doing nothing. (this in reference to immigrants getting welfare)
2: Cheating with the asylum means getting sent back home.
3: Our land for our children.
4: At home instead of Islam.
5: Representatives of the people instead of traitors.
6: German instead of "I don't understand".

 

[His Majesty]

I'm not sure if stricter integration policy is the key to victory here, though. Because as mentioned, most of those islamic terrorists are actually very well-integrated in their host country. They know exactly how to not be on the radar. That's the crux here.

Additional surveillance, security measures, immigration and asylum policies - are they really going to solve this problem? Is it even a problem that we have to exchange our freedoms and values for?

Better integration will lead to more chances in society, less disillusionment and less people turning to extremist ideas. The alternative is continuing on the path we are currently on and that does not sound like a very attractive solution to me.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So some posters are to blame for homophobic thinking and disrespecting woman etc.

Poor excuse.

Wait a sec, born and raised Austrians are plenty homophobic already.
We still don't allow homosexual marriage just registered partnerships and they have it much more difficult if they want to adopt a kid, usually just one of the partners can be registered as the parent.

 

[victreeb3l]

Can someone care to explain why there are so many Turks in Germany and so little Germans in Turks? How can this possibly be? Why are people so desperate to go to Germany, everyone from Pakistanis, Arabs and so on? I do wonder.

But honestly who cares? What a weird thing of me to say. I hope every refugee coming to Germany now gets family reunification and has 4 kids each. That will certainly alleviate the demographic and labour pool problem. The next time I go to Germany, I want to see Mosques in every city and everyone around me to have black hair and brown eyes, because otherwise that would be very very racist.

lol. Wow.

1: We reward honest work, the SPÖ doing nothing. (this in reference to immigrants getting welfare)
2: Cheating with the asylum means getting sent back home.
3: Our land for our children.
4: At home instead of Islam.
5: Representatives of the people instead of traitors.
6: German instead of "I don't understand".

Thanks for the translations! I remember seeing fear mongering posters in Switzerland as well. Sad.

What do they mean by traitors?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

So some posters are to blame for homophobic thinking and disrespecting woman etc.

Poor excuse.

Doubt the far-right even really cares about LGBT or women's rights in the first place. To look to them as the solution is misguided.

 

[spongebob340]

Wait a sec, born and raised Austrians are plenty homophobic already.
We still don't allow homosexual marriage just registered partnerships.

Yeah, what shame! Why import vast numbers of even more homophobic people?

Dont play the asylumcard. All of these people have at least crossed 5 save countries.

 

[Violet_0]

Europe would collapse if we had to take every starving African in.

I'm sorry but I don't know any of these people, and if it means they have to die for me to raise my children in this great country as I was raised, then so be it.

People are delusional if they think we can help everyone without severe consequences, we can't and it's not going to happen. Ethnic Europeans are finally drawing the line in the sand, we've had enough.

that middle sentence in particular made me raise an eyebrow. Also, us "Ethnic Europeans" (and I don't know why you bring ethnicity into this) are still very much in disagreement over how the refugee crisis should be handled

Van der Bellen isn't leading because he's Green, he's more of a personality than a party-representative. And while backed by the Greens, he entered the candidature as an independent.
There's several people in the Austrian political theater that are more known for their personalities rather than the party they were from. Haider was one such person, Van der Bellen is as well.

Either way, in the last 10 or so years, the SP and VP have been crashing down hard, while the FP has been gaining a lot of strength. It's gone from hovering around 15% up to 30+% in many regional elections. The Green party also has been making slight gains, and there's also the new liberal party called NEOS as a successor to the 90s' Liberal Forum under Heide Schmidt (who also was one of those personalities rather than party representatives).

People are really upset with the government parties. Anyone who has been following the political dynamics of Austria in the past 5 years could've seen this coming by a mile.

thanks. I'm just a little surprised that the political landscape has shifted so rapidly, a couple months ago Hofer and Van der Bellen were the outsider candidates

 

[Lead]

Can someone care to explain why there are so many Turks in Germany and so little Germans in Turks? How can this possibly be? Why are people so desperate to go to Germany, everyone from Pakistanis, Arabs and so on? I do wonder.

But honestly who cares? What a weird thing of me to say. I hope every refugee coming to Germany now gets family reunification and has 4 kids each. That will certainly alleviate the demographic and labour pool problem. The next time I go to Germany, I want to see Mosques in every city and everyone around me to have black hair and brown eyes, because otherwise that would be very very racist.

While I do share your sentiment somewhat, as a child of immigrants myself, I do want people to be able to assimilate, but that's the key word here "assimilate".

The problem is, there's no such requirement, and it's not unusual here in Denmark to find immigrants that have been here for 5-15 years that can't even speak Danish fluently.

That's honestly outrageous to me.

As long as people are willing to accept the values and norms of their host country, and actually make a concerted effort into assimilating, I don't have an issue, regardless of where you come from.

that middle sentence in particular made me raise an eyebrow. Also, us "Ethnic Europeans" (and I don't know why you bring ethnicity into this) are still very much in disagreement over how the refugee crisis should be handled

It sounded harsh, but the reality is, unless we accept every starving refugee, every war refugee, someone is going to die because of that. And the reality is there's no way we can take everyone in, there's just no way, so someone is going to die, hard as it is.

 

[Red Arremer]

So some posters are to blame for homophobic thinking and disrespecting woman etc.

Poor excuse.

And you say that despite the fact that Austria - which does not have any sort of majority of muslim members of the Nationalrat - is still one of the very few Western countries that consistently refuses to give homosexuals equal rights. In fact, FPÖ and ÖVP are vehemently against LGBT rights.

You say that about a country where there's still plenty of discrimination against women, where the difference of income between men and women still is 20+ %, we have reality TV shows like this, and where a presidential candidate, even though he only got 2% of the vote, isn't heavily criticized after making statements like "women have to stay at home and have children".

 

[spongebob340]

Doubt the far-right even really cares about LGBT or women's rights in the first place. To look to them as the solution is misguided.

Austrian myself. I did note vote for Hofer (Griss) but there are some damn legitimate reasons to be against muslim massimmigration.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, what shame! Why import vast numbers of even more homophobic people?

Dont play the asylumcard. All of these people have at least crossed 5 save countries.

We haven't imported people since the days we needed cheap labour.

And if they got held up by anyone in those 5 countries they were probably passed through. Pointing fingers and saying we're not worse than them has always been an awful defense, usually it's being uttered by kids though.

 

[Lime]

Doubt the far-right even really cares about LGBT or women's rights in the first place. To look to them as the solution is misguided.

Same thing with the Cologne rapes and harassment. Suddenly the right (and a bunch of people here on GAF) were up in arms about rape and safety of women, but when somebody brings up rape culture, they are dismissed by the very same party (and people here on GAF).

 

[spongebob340]

And you say that despite the fact that Austria - which does not have any sort of majority of muslim members of the Nationalrat - is still one of the very few Western countries that consistently refuses to give homosexuals equal rights. In fact, FPÖ and ÖVP are vehemently against LGBT rights.

You say that about a country where there's still plenty of discrimination against women, where the difference of income between men and women still is 20+ %, we have reality TV shows like this, and where a presidential candidate, even though he only got 2% of the vote, isn't heavily criticized after making statements like "women have to stay at home and have children".

As already mentioned. You are damn right! There are a lot of problems unsolved. But i dont think that immigration of very conservative people will help to solve those.

 

[Red Arremer]

Thanks for the translations! I remember seeing fear mongering posters in Switzerland as well. Sad.

What do they mean by traitors?

The FPÖ are very anti-EU, and blame it for the things that they can't blame immigration for. That's where the "treason" comes in - all other parties in both government and opposition are in favour of Austria's membership in the EU, which the FPÖ calls "treason" to Austria's sovereign rights, independence and neutrality.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Van der Bellen isn't leading because he's Green, he's more of a personality than a party-representative. And while backed by the Greens, he entered the candidature as an independent.
There's several people in the Austrian political theater that are more known for their personalities rather than the party they were from. Haider was one such person, Van der Bellen is as well.

Either way, in the last 10 or so years, the SP and VP have been crashing down hard, while the FP has been gaining a lot of strength. It's gone from hovering around 15% up to 30+% in many regional elections. The Green party also has been making slight gains, and there's also the new liberal party called NEOS as a successor to the 90s' Liberal Forum under Heide Schmidt (who also was one of those personalities rather than party representatives).

People are really upset with the government parties. Anyone who has been following the political dynamics of Austria in the past 5 years could've seen this coming by a mile.

Let's not forget that the BZÖ with Haider took 10 to 15% percent of the FPÖ but represented the same voters before disbanding after his death.

 

[sphagnum]

Can someone care to explain why there are so many Turks in Germany and so little Germans in Turks? How can this possibly be? Why are people so desperate to go to Germany, everyone from Pakistanis, Arabs and so on? I do wonder.

How about you tell us what you think?

 

[Team Alucard]

The FPÖ positions itself as a worker party on the right. Meaning, they at least act like they are in favor of more state benefits (not for the evil immigrants, though). Last time the FPÖ was in power (and the only time so far, if I remember correctly) they were in a coalition with the center-right People's Party (ÖVP) and cut lots of benefits, funding for schools and introduced tuition fees at universities (among other things) so I wouldn't exactly take them by their word on that.

A lot of them are worker parties, leaning on support from both disillusioned voters from the left and right-wing voters. And another large portion will be protest votes against the ruling parties.

As for the German AfD it's closer to the latter. They started out as a sort of liberal-democratic and anti-Euro (currency) party, but now they have quite big policy overlap with the fringe left (Linke). They are definitely not fringe right in the economic sense and I bet none of the EU fringe parties really are.

Ahh, I see. I ask because here in America the Republican party has used racism as a tool for 50 years to get working class whites to vote for laissez faire and anti-labor economic policy that explicitly hurts them. I was wondering if it was the same situation in Europe.

But it sounds more like these are legitimate nationalist parties rather than opportunistic crony capitalists using xenophobia as a recruitment tool.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

As already mentioned. You are damn right! There are a lot of problems unsolved. But i dont think that immigration of very conservative people will help to solve those.

I feel if properly managed you can turn them into liberal people. The problem is this situation isn't being properly managed by anyone. It's not like Muslims are never able to integrate,ever. We have a Muslim politician running for Mayor in London, and he supported LGBT rights, and gay marriage, for instance, based on his voting record. What Europe needs is to be more muscular in defense of liberal values. I would say that I would strongly support the deportation of extremist imams, for instance.

 

[spongebob340]

We haven't imported people since the days we needed cheap labour.

And if they got held up by anyone in those 5 countries they were probably passed through. Pointing fingers and saying we're not worse than them has always been an awful defense, usually it's being uttered by kids though.

http://derstandard.at/2000005451456/Muslime-in-Oesterreich (~ 70 % growth between 2001 - and 2012)

Where is the limit? Honest question. While we are discussing hundredthousands if not millions packing their bags.

 

[Lime]

Ahh, I see. I ask because here in America the Republican party has used racism as a tool for 50 years to get working class whites to vote for laissez faire and anti-labor economic policy that explicitly hurts them. I was wondering if it was the same situation in Europe.

But it sounds more like these are legitimate nationalist parties rather than opportunistic crony capitalists using xenophobia as a recruitment tool.

Yeah it's the same mechanism going on. Vote for nationalistic far right who's in cohorts with libertarian economic parties. Then when you have loss of wealth for the poor and middle-class because of dismantling the welfare state, blame the immigrants and refugees.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yeah it's the same mechanism going on. Vote for nationalistic far right who's in cohorts with libertarian economic parties. Then when you have loss of wealth for the poor and middle-class because of dismantling the welfare state, blame the immigrants and refugees.

The thing is, overtly, a lot of those parties are supporting workers rights, but once they're in power, they try to be sublime in their unraveling of the welfare state.

 

[JimmyRustler]

I was born in Austria, and yet I do not identify as Austrian. My mother was a Russian Jew, which I consider myself, and I would identify myself as European before I identify as Austrian. Heck, I would prefer identifying as Sammarinese before I identify as Austrian although I only lived for a few months in San Marino as opposed to Austria for most of the rest of my life.
I do not have to celebrate or live the culture of a country in order to be a functional part of its society. It is none of your business what I refer to as myself culturally, how I celebrate my holidays, or if I eat pork or not.

There's a German city, I forgot its name. They have a lot of immigrants, but those immigrants are Japanese. They have Japanese schools, Japanese kindergartens, Japanese businesses, Japanese stores with Japanese products and Japanese price labels, where everyone talks Japanese. And there's no problems there whatsoever. You know why? Because everyone is tolerant of each other.

Saying that your co-worker identifying themselves as Turkish is a problem is, in fact, the real problem. So what if they identify as Turkish? Isn't that up to them?

This statement makes me both sad and angry.

I was actually having an avid discussion with a good mate of mine about this the other day. And I really want to ask you the same question I asked him back then: I you are you proud to be Russian, why the fuck don't you go and live there?

See, I am born Croatian. I have been there the first 5 years of my life and then came to Austria. By now I have Austrian papers, done my military service and if someone asks me what I am I would not think a single second to say that I am Croatian. Like, why the fuck would I? Thanks to this country I have a good education and live a good life. In all these years Croatia gave me SHIT!! Yeah, my parents are from there, so what? My far ancestors are from Hungary. Am I Hungarian now?

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that you obviously live of Austrias fine culture. So why do you have problems to call yourself a such? I know why I would never live a life like this in Croatia with all the corruption going on and the pretty non-existing work securities. Seriously, the last time I have been there I talked to a guy who work 7 days a week and did far more hours than me each day for a payday that is laughable. He's almost like a slave. My aunt, who got her university finished with 50+, got fired because someone in her company wanted to employ someone he/she knows. Her social help now? Nothing. And you know what she could do about it? NOTHING. There is simply no instance there like the ones we have here where you can actually do something about this shit. Made my blood boil when I heard it.

And this stuff happens left and right in former Yugoslavia countries. When I confronted my buddy with these facts he couldn't say shit and just looked like an idiot.

I will never, ever understand why people who are apparently so proud of their culture refuse to life in it and have all its "benefits". Instead they live in countries like Austria or Germany, benefit from their culture but refuse to accept it as their own.

And yes, I am deeply convinced that the social injustice like I mentioned above is a CULTURAL THING and nothing else.

 

[Lime]

Well you're stating the obvious.

The problem is, if it came right down to it, there's probably tens of millions of people on the brink of dying right now, it's just impossible to help without it having severe consequences to ourselves.

There are no severe consequences to have some asylum seekers into the country.

There are more severe consequences to letting rich people accrue more wealth or sending more planes to bomb Syria and Libya. (what most political parties in Denmark just fucking did those fucking scumbags)

And yes, it that way I'm selfish, I would rather live a great life, and have my children and family grown up in a wealthy country where they can live a great life, than helping people and giving that up.

You don't have to give that up.

 

[spongebob340]

This statement makes me both sad and angry.

I was actually having an avid discussion with a good mate of mine about this the other day. And I really want to ask you the same question I asked him back then: I you are you proud to be Russian, why the fuck don't you go and live there?

See, I am born Croatian. I have been there the first 5 years of my life and then came to Austria. By now I have Austrian papers, done my military service and if someone asks me what I am I would not think a single second to say that I am Croatian. Like, why the fuck would I? Thanks to this country I have a good education and live a good life. In all these years Croatia gave me SHIT!! Yeah, my parents are from there, so what? My far ancestors are from Hungary. Am I Hungarian now?

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that you obviously live of Austrias fine culture. So why do you have problems to call yourself a such? I know why I would never live a life like this in Croatia with all the corruption going on and the pretty non-existing work securities. Seriously, the last time I have been there I talked to a guy who work 7 days a week and did far more hours than me each day for a payday that is laughable. He's almost like a slave. My aunt, who got her university finished with 50+, got fired because someone in her company wanted to employ someone he/she knows. Her social help now? Nothing. And you know what she could do about it? NOTHING. There is simply no instance there like the ones we have here where you can actually do something about this shit. Made my blood boil when I heard it.

And this stuff happens left and right in former Yugoslavia countries. When I confronted my buddy with these facts he couldn't say shit and just looked like an idiot.

I will never, ever understand why people who are apparently so proud of their culture refuse to life in it and have all its "benefits". Instead they live in countries like Austria or Germany, benefit from their culture but refuse to accept it as their own.

And yes, I am deeply convinced that the social injustice like I mentioned above is a CULTURAL THING and nothing else.

.

 

[ClosingADoor]

There are no severe consequences to have some asylum seekers into the country.

There are not? Providing shelter, food, education, healthcare and more for a few million people is free? And haven't we seen issues at refugee centers with fighting and abuse going on?

There can definitely be consequences if not handled right. And no country can take in the enormous numbers you seem to want without running into problems.

 

[Red Arremer]

And yes, I am deeply convinced that the social injustice like I mentioned above is a CULTURAL THING and nothing else.

I was victim of racism, anti-semitism and homophobia. Right here in Austria. From Austrians. Not muslims or other minorities. Not even provoked in any way - it's not like I wear a kippah or a rainbow flag on my shirt, I consider myself to be really subtle about the minorities I belong to. Yet nowhere else have I experienced this open racism, anti-semitism and homophobia as I have in Austria. A third of the people are voting for a racist, anti-semitic and homophobic party. What am I supposed to think? Do you really think I want to proudly announce that I am part of a society that has tried so hard to make me an outcast?

I'm not "proud to be a Russian", but I cannot deny the heritage I have. I want to embrace that heritage. And yes, I am well aware that there's racism, anti-semitism and homophobia in Russia as well, even worse than here. No, I don't want to move to Russia, because the political situation there is terrible. I don't want to move to Israel either. But if I had the choice and opportunity, I would leave Austria. That has nothing to do with my cultural heritage, however.

 

[Lead]

There are no severe consequences to have some asylum seekers into the country.

There are more severe consequences to letting rich people accrue more wealth or sending more planes to bomb Syria and Libya. (what most political parties in Denmark just fucking did those fucking scumbags)

You don't have to give that up.

This is obviously true, there's however a difference between "some asylum seekers" and the hundreds of thousands if not millions of refugees if we wanted to "help every drowning person" in sight.

I don't really know about letting rich people get richer, Denmark is one of the countries in the world with the most balanced economy between social classes largely thanks to our progressive taxing system.

I do agree that it's the wrong course of action to keep partaking in warfare in the middle-east.

And about not giving things up, that's not what I'm hearing or experiencing from the communal states.

 

[Lime]

There are not? Providing shelter, food, education, healthcare and more for a few million people is free? And haven't we seen issues at refugee centers with fighting and abuse going on?

There can definitely be consequences if not handled right. And no country can take in the enormous numbers you seem to want without running into problems.

Denmark is not going to take in a million refugees.

Yes, it should be handled right.

 

[Darkangel]

How would you do that?

Apart from that that, there is no inherent problem with immigration per se. Skilled immigrants who identify with a liberal society are an asset. The issue is how to make sure that people who want to stay here integrate well into society instead of creating isolated parallel sub-societies, and how to reject those who don't.

Taking in refugees is not meant to be a solution for any domestic problem. You are conflating immigration with asylum. Both are different problems with need for different solutions.

Immigration is only a band aid solution to the underlying birthrate problem. Tax incentives, monetary incentives, public awareness campaigns, and other things can be done to try and increase the birthrate. I personally think that a decreased population is a good thing for the future sustainability of the planet, but that's a whole other topic.

Ideally everyone should just have two kids.

But it is inevitable and embracing it to find something new is a hell of a lot better than getting dragged kicking and screaming into it like what is happening now. You do realise that this century is going to be incomprehensibly disruptive, right? Provided civilisation as we know it even makes it through, the state of society and the world in 2100 is going to be unrecognisable. People can keep their shared tradition, history and beliefs all they want, but they're going to have to do it in a new society where there a lot of people with different backgrounds doing the same. The pure necessity for mass migrations of people is going to ensure that the only monoethnic societies are going to be either like North Korea or flat-out extinct. In that scenario I'll go with door number one and take a shot at a multicultural society.

Of course you can stop refugees with force. We could do it in Europe too: build a wall, mount some machineguns on top, gun down anyone who comes close. Or, if you're an island like Astralia, forcefully tow away the refugee boats or bribe the smugglers to go back. Everything is possible if you're prepared to toss away any pretense of respecting human rights or just basic human decency. They're not a Mongol horde, they aren't going to literally storm you.

But if you think that's an acceptable solution you should go and take a long, hard look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what the fuck went so wrong with you; that some people have become worth less than dirt in your eyes.

At the end of the day a country is only responsible for the well being of its own citizens. If a border wall is required to keep order during a time of "crisis" then I say build it.

 

[Zaru]

Ahh, I see. I ask because here in America the Republican party has used racism as a tool for 50 years to get working class whites to vote for laissez faire and anti-labor economic policy that explicitly hurts them. I was wondering if it was the same situation in Europe.

But it sounds more like these are legitimate nationalist parties rather than opportunistic crony capitalists using xenophobia as a recruitment tool.

The crony capitalists use these parties as easy tools for power.

That right wing party hasn't been in power for like a decade, and we're still losing gigantic amounts of money because of their shady dealings.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Denmark is not going to take in a million refugees.

Yes, it should be handled right.

Then you agree that at some point we have to start saying no and deny people. Where is that limit for you? Can Denmark take a 100.000, 300.000, 500,000?

For some people it has already been reached. I think we can take a bit more in here in Holland, but not in the way we currently go about it.

 

[Lime]

This is obviously true, there's however a difference between "some asylum seekers" and the hundreds of thousands if not millions of refugees if we wanted to "help every drowning person" in sight.

I don't really know about letting rich people get richer, Denmark is one of the countries in the world with the most balanced economy between social classes largely thanks to our progressive taxing system.

I do agree that it's the wrong course of action to keep partaking in warfare in the middle-east.

For the second time, you don't have to save the entire world. Just the ones at your doorstep.

And about not giving things up, that's not what I'm hearing or experiencing from the communal states

Do you think that's because of (the mismanagement of ) the refugees or because of the austerity measures the right-winged party has introduced to cut down everything in order to save money for people who buy luxury cars or do tax evasion?

 

[ClosingADoor]

For the second time, you don't have to save the entire world. Just the ones at your doorstep.

People keep coming to your doorstep if you continue to let them in all the time. There is no fixed amount of people there waiting.

 

[Toxi]

Personally?

If someone genuinely wants sharia to replace our current laws, I would have no problem deporting them with force if necessary.

I don't have any problem if people are muslims (even though on a certain level it contradicts our core beliefs), I don't have any problem if people are of a different heritage. My problem starts when people can't accept the values and culture of their new hosts, that's really all there is to it (for me anyway).

Forcibly deport people because they hold reprehensible political views? That's a new one.