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[Lead]

Having laws is not enough. What needs to happen is enforcing them and instead we have lawless zones in Europe where police is afraid to enter.

Exactly this.

My fathers side of my family is Catholic Irish immigrants and they had no problem assimilating because they knew they had to, and it was the right thing to do, even though Denmark is Lutheran and not Catholic.

We're still Catholic to this day, but we don't act all high and mighty like our religion matters more than our host country, it doesn't. If there ever was an issue my religion would take a backseat every day of the week.

 

[Team Alucard]

Just how far to the right are most of these far-right parties. Like do they want to privatize everything, dismantle the government, rollback worker protections, etc? Or are they just basically leftists/center-leftists who hate muslims?

 

[Zaptruder]

So this is how global warming is fucking us now.

Global warming -> climate instability -> Areas with undedeverloped agricultural systems & large climate fluctuations take a hit -> starvation and diminished economy = pissed off populace, toppling governments. Civil war and strife causes people to flee, countries close by start to absorb refugees at rates higher than can be reasonably acclimatized... people in those countries start to get wary of refugees and immigrants... vote in racist parties...

Racist parties that continue the same policies that has created massive negative externalities in other nations, which continues the cycle of pain for everyone.

 

[Saucy_XL]

Flat out wrong. The influx of immigrants has heavily benefited most European countries, on both ends of the income spectrum. My GP doctor is Arab. His assistants are Austrian. Without him immigrating, they would not have a job, and I would not have the doctor I trust going to. My landlord is Jewish, and he employs several Austrian people. The owner of the plumbing business that fixed my toilet the other week is Turkish, the plumber who came in himself was Serbian, the apprentice Austrian.

Fact of the matter is that a lot of immigrants are taking jobs, yes, but those are mostly jobs that the majority of inherent citizens wouldn't do (working in construction, cleaning, healthcare, etc.), or couldn't do (academic jobs). They also employ other people, both immigrants and native people.

Pair that with the fact that the native society of most Western countries is aging, we NEED immigration in order to fill the workforce and pay our elders welfare.



And there's several generations of people born in Europe that still want a fascist dictatorial state. So?



I was born in Austria, and yet I do not identify as Austrian. My mother was a Russian Jew, which I consider myself, and I would identify myself as European before I identify as Austrian. Heck, I would prefer identifying as Sammarinese before I identify as Austrian although I only lived for a few months in San Marino as opposed to Austria for most of the rest of my life.
I do not have to celebrate or live the culture of a country in order to be a functional part of its society. It is none of your business what I refer to as myself culturally, how I celebrate my holidays, or if I eat pork or not.

There's a German city, I forgot its name. They have a lot of immigrants, but those immigrants are Japanese. They have Japanese schools, Japanese kindergartens, Japanese businesses, Japanese stores with Japanese products and Japanese price labels, where everyone talks Japanese. And there's no problems there whatsoever. You know why? Because everyone is tolerant of each other.

Saying that your co-worker identifying themselves as Turkish is a problem is, in fact, the real problem. So what if they identify as Turkish? Isn't that up to them?



Anectodal evidence. Last time I was harassed by children, they were blonde, pale, had blue eyes and spoke perfect Viennese dialect.

Your whole post is anecdotal

 

[Red Arremer]

Just how far to the right are most of these far-right parties. Like do they want to privatize everything, dismantle the government, rollback worker protections, etc? Or are they just basically leftists/center-leftists who hate muslims?

Depends on the FP representative you ask.
Since the FPÖ however presents itself as the "party for the small man", trying to undo worker protections and such would backfire heavily. Economically speaking, they're fairly centrist, as such.
The last time the FP was in the government (2000-2005), they also unraveled several governmental structures in education, healthcare, unemployment, worker benefits, and more. I'd have to look up what it was exactly, I don't remember the specifics, just the general areas all this stuff happened in.

Either way, their image as right wingers come from their societal politics in regards to things such as immigration, LGBT rights, surveillance, and similar topics.

 

[ElTorro]

You have to look at it beyond culture - it's not as this is a case of "this is their culture and therefore they do this", it's a complex issue of a group of disenfranchised men who band together and hype one another up in who can be the most "powerful" guy.

This doesn't mean that there are problems in regards to gender in some communities and cultures and we have to acknowledge it, yet at the same time we have to understand that this isn't something inherent, just like it isn't inherent in "our" European-Christian cultures to propagate rape culture.

So in that sense, I think the premise of that discussion already has presumptions about "cultures" and people start to generalize based on a particular phenomenon of a group of men doing horrible shit.

I am certainly not saying that culture is something immutable or inherent. I have always seen little inherent value in cultural traditions because of that. I am also not saying that cultural background alone explains events like this. After all, rape is officially outlawed in the countries the perpetrators were coming from.

However, it is undeniable that at this point in time the cultures we are talking about have a much less liberal stance on women's roles and sexuality. And beliefs like this have consequences. For instance, we recently had a thread about how Muslims in Britan view homosexuality, and the data speaks for itself. I am sure that many people use this only as a pretext for general xenophobia, but why should anyone care about them? It does not make this issue any less real. And these people should not dictate our discourse. Which is what the Greens in my example let happen nonetheless. They are more concerned that facts might be used as arguments by Xenophobes and less concerned about the facts and consequences itself. Which leads to the voter's perception that I mentioned.

There is a significant difference in how different milieus with different cultural backgrounds tend to view societal issues, and that does lead and will lead to problems of several kinds. I grew up in such milieus and I can confirm that strong illiberal views and an unwillingness to identify with the host country are more prevalent there. Part of it has to do with disenfranchisement and isolationism (which is in large parts self-inflicted), but there is definitely a cultural component to it. For instance, my mother was not allowed to finish school because "women do not need to work". That was a cultural/value-based misogynistic statement, pure and simple. I could name many other examples.

But precisely because culture is not inherent and can be changed, we should forcefully support and demand change. And that is not achieved through handwaving away the issue of cultural backgrounds. That just helps the far-right.

 

[Red Arremer]

Your whole post is anecdotal

Yeah, except for the first part where I bring up aging and the fact that we need immigrants to boost our workforce, and that immigration was integral for our economy. Yes, I brought up anecdotal examples, but so did the poster I quoted with his co-worker who says he's Turkish.
In fact, most of the things that the poster I quoted are anecdotal, but saying "I can't go down the streets without those filthy muslim kids calling me names" is the prime example of anecdotes if I've ever seen one.
The only exception of that quoted post is the "studies that show most welfare goes towards female immigrants", and I would actually like some sources for that.

So, calling solely me out on saying his post is anecdotal is just being a dipshit.

 

[Stinkles]

Gosh between the nazis, the deadly land and sea creatures and the endless hooning, that country can't get a break.

 

[close to the edge]

Just how far to the right are most of these far-right parties. Like do they want to privatize everything, dismantle the government, rollback worker protections, etc? Or are they just basically leftists/center-leftists who hate muslims?

The FPÖ positions itself as a worker party on the right. Meaning, they at least act like they are in favor of more state benefits (not for the evil immigrants, though). Last time the FPÖ was in power (and the only time so far, if I remember correctly) they were in a coalition with the center-right People's Party (ÖVP) and cut lots of benefits, funding for schools and introduced tuition fees at universities (among other things) so I wouldn't exactly take them by their word on that.

 

[Hisoka]

I do not think there was a really good choice to begin with, but yeah. Lugner, you had your chance, lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

I do not think there was a really good choice to begin with, but yeah. Lugner, you had your chance, lol.

Funnily enough, this wasn't his first election as a presidential candidate, but he did much much better in every other one he was in. As high as ~10% even.

 

[Lead]

The only exception of that quoted post is the "studies that show most welfare goes towards female immigrants", and I would actually like some sources for that.

Not going to bother doing translations for you, but here's an article in Danish: http://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2016-...indvandrer-kvinderne-virkelig-for-syge-til-at

 

[His Majesty]

And the question is what caused these zones to occur? Surely it is not "their culture". It is years if not decades of social and economic policies that have disenfranchised these zones to become as crazy as they are. And we need to tackle this properly without resorting to binary thinking about "us & them" and generalizing statements based on skin color and/or religion. The far-rights solution is basically "throw all these people out of the country" and you see how their rhetoric and discourse has created this sort of all or nothing attitude in the populace where the only thing possible to become "good again" is to throw out anyone who is a brown person practicing Islam.

It's a combination of different factors I'd say. Our multi-cultural society consists of small, separate communities that don't really have to interact with other communities. This diminishes the personal need for integration: you can perfectly go through daily life without learning the morals, values, language and other cultural aspects of your host country. More pro-active or even mandatory integration measures should have been taken to prevent this.

And don't underestimate the role of imams in these communities. They have a very large influence on the youth. A large part already rejects the liberal values of the host country and is more susceptible for extremist ideas. Belgium ignored the problem and is now Europe's leading exporter in IS fighters.

Just how far to the right are most of these far-right parties. Like do they want to privatize everything, dismantle the government, rollback worker protections, etc? Or are they just basically leftists/center-leftists who hate muslims?

A lot of them are worker parties, leaning on support from both disillusioned voters from the left and right-wing voters. And another large portion will be protest votes against the ruling parties.

 

[Phantast2k]

Just how far to the right are most of these far-right parties. Like do they want to privatize everything, dismantle the government, rollback worker protections, etc? Or are they just basically leftists/center-leftists who hate muslims?

As for the German AfD it's closer to the latter. They started out as a sort of liberal-democratic and anti-Euro (currency) party, but now they have quite big policy overlap with the fringe left (Linke). They are definitely not fringe right in the economic sense and I bet none of the EU fringe parties really are.

So this is how global warming is fucking us now.

Global warming -> climate instability -> Areas with undedeverloped agricultural systems & large climate fluctuations take a hit -> starvation and diminished economy = pissed off populace, toppling governments. Civil war and strife causes people to flee, countries close by start to absorb refugees at rates higher than can be reasonably acclimatized... people in those countries start to get wary of refugees and immigrants... vote in racist parties...

Racist parties that continue the same policies that has created massive negative externalities in other nations, which continues the cycle of pain for everyone.

The climate change / global warming migration has not even set in yet. That food price volatility which was one of the causes of the Arab Spring, is not really that.

 

[Lime]

So this is how global warming is fucking us now.

Global warming -> climate instability -> Areas with undedeverloped agricultural systems & large climate fluctuations take a hit -> starvation and diminished economy = pissed off populace, toppling governments. Civil war and strife causes people to flee, countries close by start to absorb refugees at rates higher than can be reasonably acclimatized... people in those countries start to get wary of refugees and immigrants... vote in racist parties...

Racist parties that continue the same policies that has created massive negative externalities in other nations, which continues the cycle of pain for everyone.

Yup, it's pretty bad. But you also have to take into account how the destabilization of Iraq and Afghanistan have factored into the shit going down in Syria and Libya. Then you also have the influx of weapons and bombs by other nations (Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, the US, Russia, NATO, etc.) which just fuck up everything for everyone.

But I don't think we've seen anything yet.

The current drought in African countries isn't looking so good either :/

 

[RayStorm]

There's a German city, I forgot its name.

Just in case anyone else is curious, that would be Düsseldorf.

 

[Valhelm]

Just how far to the right are most of these far-right parties. Like do they want to privatize everything, dismantle the government, rollback worker protections, etc? Or are they just basically leftists/center-leftists who hate muslims?

Really depends. France's Front National are pseudo-fascists when it comes to immigration and religion, but are on paper otherwise pretty similar to our Democratic Party -- they support nationalized healthcare to some extent, and care for the rights of (white, Christian, non-immigrant) workers.

 

[Red Arremer]

Not going to bother doing translations for you, but here's an article in Danish: http://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2016-...indvandrer-kvinderne-virkelig-for-syge-til-at

Just in case anyone else is curious, that would be Düsseldorf.

Thank you both.

 

[Lime]

I am certainly not saying that culture is something immutable or inherent. I have always seen little inherent value in cultural traditions because of that. I am also not saying that cultural background alone explains events like this. After all, rape is officially outlawed in the countries the perpetrators were coming from.

However, it is undeniable that at this point in time the cultures we are talking about have a much less liberal stance on women's roles and sexuality. And beliefs like this have consequences. For instance, we recently had a thread about how Muslims in Britan view homosexuality, and the data speaks for itself. I am sure that many people use this only as a pretext for general xenophobia, but why should anyone care about them? It does not make this issue any less real. And these people should not dictate our discourse. Which is what the Greens in my example let happen nonetheless. They are more concerned that facts might be used as arguments by Xenophobes and less concerned about the facts and consequences itself. Which leads to the voter's perception that I mentioned.

There is a significant difference in how different milieus with different cultural backgrounds tend to view societal issues, and that does lead and will lead to problems of several kinds. I grew up in such milieus and I can confirm that strong illiberal views and an unwillingness to identify with the host country are more prevalent there. Part of it has to do with disenfranchisement and isolationism (which is in large parts self-inflicted), but there is definitely a cultural component to it. For instance, my mother was not allowed to finish school because "women do not need to work". That was a cultural/value-based misogynistic statement, pure and simple. I could name many other examples.

But precisely because culture is not inherent and can be changed, we should forcefully support and demand change. And that is not achieved through handwaving away the issue of cultural backgrounds. That just helps the far-right.

Thanks ElTorro, I appreciate the perspective. The article I linked explains a lot of these things pretty well, I think:

'Low social status and strong group dynamics are essential elements if we as a society need to learn about the background of the events in Cologne' ', says Sune Qvotrup Jensen.

"It is scientifically well understood that one of the ways that men who are in a marginalized position, can respond to is to produce street culture that often have strong homophobic and / or sexist overtones and undertones. An example of this can be oppressive practices against women, homosexuals and gender-crossers. This is also seen in classical studies of street gangs in New York - which of course are not Muslims. "

Roughly speaking, we can say that when it is about 'the other', then we use cultural explanations, and when it is about ourselves then we use individual explanations. In the media's happening right now, in my view, an over-emphasis on 'the others' culture, '' he says.

Sune Qvotrup Jensen has a different perspective on the events in Cologne. He suggests that we understand the events as an expression of part-culture or subculture that is both part of - and closely linked to - the western culture where certain forms of masculinity is in play.

"Maybe we need to understand these atrocities in Cologne as a radicalized homosocial event, a bit like you have depictions of gang rapes in American band contexts. It is a way to produce an individual and collective identity and manifest to themselves and each other that one is not just a hard man, but a very hard man. The dynamics are also familiar from war situations where soldiers committing atrocities against women, "he explains.

Migration is a class trip. And it is often a downward class travel. When some of what you are experiencing is to be in a new social context where you may not have it pretty well, so it is a loss of identity, but it is also a masculinity staff. And on top of that you may experience also that you discursively already designated as a sort of villain and have an experience of being frowned upon in society. "He says.

'' The desire for sexual liberation and equality has and is therefore a long fight against a number of conservative institutions including Christianity, '' he explains.

"If the cultural conservatives trying to say that the contrast between free and unfree or equal and unequal cultures has something to do with an opposition between Christianity and Islam, so I think that it is totally categorical incorrectly interpreted."

So, I think the class perspective is very useful here, along with the conservative values being taken up by the disenfranchised.

The only way to fight the example that you're mentioning is exposure and dialogue. And make sure that a lot of these people are not disenfranchised or reduced to a lower class through racist exclusion from the jobmarket.

 

[ParChor]

The current drought in African countries isn't looking so good either :/

Are you talking about the worst drought in 50 years that Ethiopia is facing?
Hmmm, I wonder what the root cause of that unrest is...

 

[Sn4ke_911]

 

[mavericktopgun]

Disgusting.

 

[ParChor]

Disgusting.

Disgusting that people are demonstrating their right to vote in a democratic republic?

 

[sphagnum]

Disgusting that people are demonstrating their right to vote in a democratic republic?

Sure, voting for something doesn't make it invulnerable to criticism or "good". People can vote en masse for the wrong thing and do all the time.

The point of democracy isn't that it always gives the right result but that it (hopefully) prevents one person from amassing power and gives a better representation of the populace's opinion. But sometimes the populace's opinion is wrong.

 

[Hisoka]

Disgusting.

I'm proud of my country lol. The first time we didn't let SPÖ and ÖVP fuck us over. Austria has a rough time, it's time for a change. I prefer every collateral damage over those two parties tbqh. And as i said, the choice we had wasn't sexy to begin with. Only Lugner, he's haaaaaaaaaaaawttt as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Spoiler

The last sentence was sarcastic.

Spoiler

Maybe.

 

[ParChor]

Sure, voting for something doesn't make it invulnerable to criticism or "good". People can vote en masse for the wrong thing and do all the time.

The point of democracy isn't that it always gives the right result but that it (hopefully) prevents one person from amassing power and gives a better representation of the populace's opinion. But sometimes the populace's opinion is wrong.

Sure, I completely agree that democracy can be abused to the equivalent of throwing peanuts to the masses and giving empty promises, but you seem to strike as someone who deems himself the arbiter of what is "right" and "wrong". The populace's opinion is expressed with their votes and their protesting of the establishment parties, maybe you can conclude they have grievances and thus their giving their vote to an outsider party.

 

[dapperbandit]

I think there's a perception that dry social democratic parties no longer care for the white working classes or their concerns like immigration. Sure there's the welfare state but that's no longer a universally left wing proposition, conservative parties offer welfare too, albeit less of it.

When the established system seems to be struggling to cope with the immigration crisis but only the right will indulge your criticisms you get results like this.

 

[ClosingADoor]

There is actually such a thing as the voting populace being dead wrong on certain issues. A large subset of the voters appear to have so low thresholds of tolerance that they lose their minds if you put a refugee center in their neighborhood or that they feel irrationally afraid of any group of foreign looking men, no matter what they're doing. I have tons of examples of both of these from my hometown of Gothenburg and more.

How do you address someone like that? The debate hasn't been about anything you can even start to address - like genuine costs or practical issues - but about irrational hatred and fear. The only way to address that is to cowtow to their irrational beliefs and that's not a solution at all.

Of course the governments should have had better plans in place and responded with more resolve, but as long as the only workable solution - an EU wide system - is for some reason impossible to implement, the national governments can't do all that much about the situation. If we want open internal borders we need a unified system for immigration.

You seem to think that this issue just popped up now and suddenly Europe is shifting to the right out of nowhere. This has been in the making for at least 20 years if not longer. We saw the signs here in Holland already for a long time, yet the political parties totally ignored it and keep on ignoring it. It would have been a whole lot more effective to actually solve the problems that people like Wilders here thrive on.

And yes, the populace can be wrong. But since we are living in a democracy you then have to show them how they are wrong, and address the underlying issues that is leading to those opinions. Ignoring it and just continuing on is not a good solution. Fact is, most traditional parties do not have answers to the issues European countries face, primarily when it comes to immigration. And honestly, that is more scary to me then anything else, since it shows incompetence from the people leading my country.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Seems like Europe can only be enlightened and progressive when brown people are a concept, not a reality. Have fun rerunning the last 40 years of American politics, guys!

 

[Madness]

It's ironic for how long Europe has given the US shit for it's immigration deportation and views on illegal immigrants. Europe has to deal with an influx of 1.5 million refugees and it is barbed wire fences and closed borders and arson attacks on refugee centers and the election of actual far right politicians and parties. This is only going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Sioen]

I wonder if all the right wing haters actually live in Europe, or atleast in places in Europe where you can see the results of unchecked immigration.

 

[Lime]

Seems like Europe can only be enlightened and progressive when brown people are a concept, not a reality. Have fun rerunning the last 40 years of American politics, guys!

lol we couldn't even be enlightened when they were a concept. This shit has always existed in some form or another, it's just much more pressing because of immigration and multiculturalism in the 20th century and it is much more toxic because of the rising instability and inequality caused by late globalized capitalism and neoliberal ideology pervading our societies.

I wonder if all the right wing haters actually live in Europe, or atleast in places in Europe where you can see the results of unchecked immigration.

95% of my life has been living in neighborhoods and going to school with Muslim immigrants from the middle east. My entire childhood and teenage years consisted in growing up in what is colloquially called a "satellite dish neighborhood" where the government just stowed away all the worker immigrants and refugees in the 70's and 80's into big concrete buildings in the municipalities that took them in (in exchange for more money to their budget).

Unfortunately these neighborhoods were frowned upon and they had to rename them to avoid the bad reputation, but thanks to the Scandinavian welfare state and social safety nets, they were never unsafe to live in or be in around night. People were still marginalized and worse off because of segregationist policies and cultural differences, but it was never as bad as the stories you hear from France or Belgium.

 

[mavericktopgun]

I'm proud of my country lol. The first time we didn't let SPÖ and ÖVP fuck us over. Austria has a rough time, it's time for a change. I prefer every collateral damage over those two parties tbqh. And as i said, the choice we had wasn't sexy to begin with. Only Lugner, he's haaaaaaaaaaaawttt as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Spoiler

The last sentence was sarcastic.

Spoiler

Maybe.

I'm Austrian too BUT you can't be serious...

 

[ClosingADoor]

Seems like Europe can only be enlightened and progressive when brown people are a concept, not a reality. Have fun rerunning the last 40 years of American politics, guys!

While I won't deny that part of it is definitely racism, there is also a part of European citizens just being tired with years of incompetence from their government when it comes to this issue. They do not want to be forced to accept many people who do not share the same views as them. For example, we have seen abuse of women, other minorities and LGTB people in refugee centers. Why would we want people who think and act that way against people who do not share their culture in our own society?

It's ironic for how long Europe has given the US shit for it's immigration deportation and views on illegal immigrants. Europe has to deal with an influx of 1.5 million refugees and it is barbed wire fences and closed borders and arson attacks on refugee centers and the election of actual far right politicians and parties. This is only going to get worse before it gets better.

Yes, it is easier when you are an ocean away and can just ignore the issue like the US is doing. When it comes to the current refugee crisis the US should be ashamed that it is not taking in people and has no right to tell Europe what to do as long as they themselves don't act.

 

[ParChor]

I wonder if all the right wing haters actually live in Europe, or atleast in places in Europe where you can see the results of unchecked immigration.

Yes, and being called a racist when you say something opposed to their opinions or stance.
Vote for [my favourite political party]? You're right! Vote for [the political party I'm against]? Then you're a racist and your opinion should be shut down.

I say I want to vote for a party that wants a sensible refugee system and ban religious institutions that promote bigotry and intolerance, and all of a sudden I'm conflated with a person that wants to ban "every non-white person".

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Disgusting that people are demonstrating their right to vote in a democratic republic?

Disgusting that people vote for a party of right-wing extremists and racists. It's also pretty disgusting that people in here are cheering for guys like him and spreading their xenophobic propaganda.

I hope there will be strong reactions from the other EU countries if he actually gets elected. And I am sure as hell won't visit this country again if someone like him is in charge.

 

[Red Arremer]

It's ironic for how long Europe has given the US shit for it's immigration deportation and views on illegal immigrants. Europe has to deal with an influx of 1.5 million refugees and it is barbed wire fences and closed borders and arson attacks on refugee centers and the election of actual far right politicians and parties. This is only going to get worse before it gets better.

In all fairness to Austria, the far right party here has been strong for decades. Long before the immigrant crisis.

I wonder if all the right wing haters actually live in Europe, or atleast in places in Europe where you can see the results of unchecked immigration.

I am living in one of the districts of Vienna with the highest rate of immigrants. I am decidedly anti right-wing.

I say I want to vote for a party that wants a sensible refugee system and ban religious institutions that promote bigotry and intolerance, and all of a sudden I'm conflated with a person that wants to ban "every non-white person".

But the FPÖ doesn't ban religious institutions that promote bigotry and intolerance, they support a religious institution that promotes bigotry and intolerance (the Catholic church). In fact, a lot of their societal policies are based on "Christian values", and that includes promoting Catholicism as the "state religion", oppression of homosexual rights, etc.

 

[Sioen]

Disgusting that people vote for a party of right-wing extremists and racists. It's also pretty disgusting that people in here are cheering for guys like him and spreading their xenophobic propaganda.

I hope there will be strong reactions from the other EU countries if he actually gets elected. And I am sure as hell won't visit this country again if someone like him is in charge.

Lol, EU never reacts on anything unless it's too late.

 

[JesseEwiak]

While I won't deny that part of it is definitely racism, there is also a part of European citizens just being tired with years of incompetence from their government when it comes to this issue. They do not want to be forced to accept many people who do not share the same views as them. For example, we have seen abuse of women, other minorities and LGTB people in refugee centers. Why would we want people who think and act that way against people who do not share their culture in our own society?.

In other words, disagreeing with social liberalism should be either a death sentence or fated to live under an Islamist dictatorship. Spoiler alert, the vast majority of people who are fleeing the crazy people might shockingly have the views of gay people that most Europeans did forty years ago, but they're never going to have then numbers to actually affect policy. Maybe this time though, you could not stick them all in ghettos next to each other where their social conservatism gets magnified.

I say I want to vote for a party that wants a sensible refugee system and ban religious institutions that promote bigotry and intolerance, and all of a sudden I'm conflated with a person that wants to ban "every non-white person".

Right, you only want to ban non-white people you disagree with politically. BTW, nice lack of religious tolerance. The Catholic and Protestant Kings of the 80 and 30 Years War would be proud of you.

 

[Hisoka]

I'm Austrian too BUT you can't be serious...

Depends on what part you can't take serious in my post!

 

[ParChor]

Disgusting that people vote for a party of right-wing extremists and racists. It's also pretty disgusting that people in here are cheering for guys like him and spreading their xenophobic propaganda.

I hope there will be strong reactions from the other EU countries if he actually gets elected. And I am sure as hell won't visit this country again if someone like him is in charge.

That's what happens when the establishment parties are incompetent and the reaction is to vote them out.

Wanting a sensible asylum seeker policy is somehow racist?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Yes, and being called a racist when you say something opposed to their opinions or stance.
Vote for [my favourite political party]? You're right! Vote for [the political party I'm against]? Then you're a racist and your opinion should be shut down.

I say I want to vote for a party that wants a sensible refugee system and ban religious institutions that promote bigotry and intolerance, and all of a sudden I'm conflated with a person that wants to ban "every non-white person".

You can't be serious. FPÖ and "sensible refugee system"? Lmao. They are worse than Donald Trump when it comes to refugees, and especially Islam.

That's what happens when the establishment parties are incompetent and the reaction is to vote them out.

Wanting a sensible asylum seeker policy is somehow racist?

Smh.

 

[Red Arremer]

Wanting a sensible asylum seeker policy is somehow racist?

FPÖ. Sensible asylum seeker policy.

Quite.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In other words, disagreeing with social liberalism should be either a death sentence or fated to live under an Islamist dictatorship. Spoiler alert, the vast majority of people who are fleeing the crazy people might shockingly have the views of gay people that most Europeans did forty years ago, but they're never going to have then numbers to actually affect policy. Maybe this time though, you could not stick them all in ghettos next to each other where their social conservatism gets magnified.

Yes, and we luckily have come a long way in those 40 years. Sadly there are still tons of battles to be fought - Eastern Europe especially needs to get their shit together with his.

But can you blame people for not wanting to go through the same process again and deal with harassment and worse?

I don't like these far right parties and don't vote for them. But it is pretty clear the traditional political parties are dropping the ball and can not give the people a solution for the trouble they see.

 

[Gurgelhals]

lol we couldn't even be enlightened when they were a concept. This shit has always existed in some form or another, it's just much more pressing because of immigration and multiculturalism in the 20th century and it is much more toxic because of the rising instability and inequality caused by late globalized capitalism and neoliberal ideology pervading our societies.

What is really frustrating about all this is that, when it comes to economic policy, most of these right wing parties are even more staunchly neoliberal than the usual center / center-right parties. They just cover it up with their culturally conservative and/or nationalist rhetoric. People vote for these guys for a certain brand of social and cultural values and traditions. What they then get is tax breaks for the rich, welfare cuts, deregulation and privatizations.

 

[Madness]

Yes, it is easier when you are an ocean away and can just ignore the issue like the US is doing. When it comes to the current refugee crisis the US should be ashamed that it is not taking in people and has no right to tell Europe what to do as long as they themselves don't act.

Yes and so the US that is dealing with almost 15 million illegal immigrants for the past two decades has taken tons of flack from Europe when it came to it.

Also prior to this Syrian crisis the US took in and resettled more refugees than any other country in the world. Same with immigration. Europe is now just getting a taste of what the US has endured the last 2-3 decades and responds by becoming ultranationalist and far right. You have actual European leaders say we will only take in non-muslims, you have refugee shelters set on fire in Sweden etc.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Yes, and we luckily have come a long way in those 40 years. Sadly there are still tons of battles to be fought - Eastern Europe especially needs to get their shit together with his.

But can you blame people for not wanting to go through the same process again and deal with harassment and worse?

There's a difference between having laws against harassment of any people and not accepting any refugees who are trying to escape a broken country unless they have 2015 views of homosexuality and equality.

Again, maybe this is because I'm an American, but I live every day knowing 30%-40% of the country believes gays to be lesser people. Making your population go where 15% of the population now believes that at most doesn't seem like such a bad deal.

The issue is like race in America during the 60's - the only solution the people will accept is not actually sharing society.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes and so the US that is dealing with almost 15 million illegal immigrants for the past two decades has taken tons of flack from Europe when it came to it.

Also prior to this Syrian crisis the US took in and resettled more refugees than any other country in the world. Same with immigration. Europe is now just getting a taste of what the US has endured the last 2-3 decades and responds by becoming ultranationalist and far right. You have actual European leaders say we will only take in non-muslims, you have refugee shelters set on fire in Sweden etc.

The US also is a lot bigger economically and geographically than the entirety of Europe, so that argument is flawed. Furthermore, as we speak, the US also has Donald Trump being the most likely conservative candidate for US presidency, and can you really argue he is anything but ultranationalist and far right? Didn't Trump also say that he will depose all muslims, and encourage the violence against people protesting at his rallies?

 

[ParChor]

But the FPÖ doesn't ban religious institutions that promote bigotry and intolerance, they support a religious institution that promotes bigotry and intolerance (the Catholic church). In fact, a lot of their societal policies are based on "Christian values", and that includes promoting Catholicism as the "state religion", oppression of homosexual rights, etc.

So Islam is very tolerant and accepting of women's rights? Homosexual rights? I don't see anywhere in their manifesto of their professed "Christian values", care to give a link? From what I've read, Austria already has anti-hate laws and you can go to jail for espousing racist views, I don't care to see how opposing the current refugee madness is racist.

I want a multicultural country like any one, but that happens only if the ethnic groups are godless and tolerant of one another. The clearly hasn't worked in Britain and France. Wanting an asylum system that accepts refugees from countries that have experienced war is not racist.

 

[KingSnake]

I want a multicultural country like any one, but that happens only if the ethnic groups are godless and tolerant of one another.

Forget Islam for a bit, what's your opinion on the Christians from Eastern Europe?