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[GremlinFool]

Then why bring it up if it is a pointless argument? And to continue, worst obscenity does not equate to uglier connotations either. I'm not saying there is no discussion to by had about possible hypocrisy, but if you start your argument with unprovable assertions it does you no favours.

It's far from unprovable. GAF is just not the medium to discuss it. You're doing this thread a much greater disservice derailing the more pertinent discussion (one that can, in fact, have a positive resolution and can be discussed on a less technical basis). The statement was used to emphasize the more important topic at hand, nothing else. That being said, you haranguing me about minutiae when you and I both know this will end in your capitulation if I try to pursue it on any serious level, is a prime example of why people stray away from intelligent discourse on NeoGAF. At the end of the day, whether or not there is objective merit to the point I was making (and I assure you, there's oodles), I was voicing an opinion. Your condescending tone is very annoying and I'll politely ask you to stop distracting from what I initially wanted to discuss. Enough with this hoity-toity bullshit.

Cop out.

It is, because as any sane man would concede, I can't afford to waste that much time contrasting the relative ugliness of "cunt" and "faggot."

 

[pakkit]

It didn't crush his career because he was already famous and people can make money off him. She's not famous yet and is already acting like she can get away with saying whatever, why should anyone bother working with her when there're a thousand other people who can do the same thing but keep their mouth shut?

Because being outspoken has no correlation to artistic talent? She's already worked with a handful of notable artists (Machinedrum is a well-respected producer), and I doubt many of them care about Twitter beefs.

See also: Tyler the Creator, The Weeknd, and other people I can't think of because literally none of this matters.

As expected, this thread has turned to literal analysis. "Faggot" and "cunt" are both colloquial pejoratives: neither word will forever offend, and comparing their relative strengths is silly.

 

[Yoshiya]

It's a pointless discussion to have. The degree of subjectivity inherent in such discourse would make this stupidly pedantic at lightning speed. I hate to use an argument from authority, but for the purposes of brevity I concede to the words of scholars, who have often referred to "cunt" as the worst obscenity in the English language.

I think, for one, a distinction can be found in that "cunt" has some utility simply in the degree of its obscenity, often used in a way wholly disconnected from its meaning as a gendered slur, much in the way "fuck" is somewhat disconnected from sex. I think it'd be harder to advance that "faggot" carries a wider meaning than to insult a man's masculinity by disparaging his supposed sexual orientation.

 

[Mercury Fred]

It is, because as any sane man would concede, I can't afford to waste that much time contrasting the relative ugliness of "cunt" and "faggot."

And yet here you are wasting a fair amount of time bloviating without actually saying anything of any substance.

 

[pakkit]

I think, for one, a distinction can be found in that "cunt" has some utility simply in the degree of its obscenity, often used in a way wholly disconnected from its meaning as a gendered slur, much in the way "fuck" is somewhat disconnected from sex. I think it'd be harder to advance that "faggot" carries a wider meaning than to insult a man's masculinity by disparaging his supposed sexual orientation.

Give me the literal definition of "cunt," and try to argue that it is not a gendered slur. Assuming, of course, that you agree that sex and gender are concepts, in some way or another, tied together.

 

[GremlinFool]

And yet you're wasting a fair amount of time bloviating without actually saying anything of ny substance.

Not that much time. I just want to make sure we talk about the right thing. Whether "cunt" is worse than "faggot" is of no practical relevance. They're both shitty words with negative connotations and are used to suppress marginalized groups in society.

As far as gendered insults go, "cunt" is as nasty as you can get (particularly in the U.S., which is presumably the baseline for this thread). "Faggot" is probably top of its class in terms of derogatory terms for homosexual men. That's literally all we need to know to have the more reasonable discussion.

 

[Yoshiya]

Give me the literal definition of "cunt," and try to argue that it is not a gendered slur. Assuming, of course, that you agree that sex and gender are concepts, in some way or another, tied together.

Of course I can't, but much in the way we appropriate other offensive words simply for their obscenity ("fucking horrible") I think cunt has some potential to be used in a non-misogynistic sense. In my experience, at least, the use of the word faggot generally tries to evoke ideas that are inherently homophobic or at least invariably disparaging in terms of masculinity. I could call a man a cunt, a woman a cunt, the sky a cunt, and it'd be distasteful; I'd be looked on strangely if I called anything but a man a faggot.

 

[Dead Man]

It's far from unprovable. GAF is just not the medium to discuss it. You're doing this thread a much greater disservice derailing the more pertinent discussion (one that can, in fact, have a positive resolution and can be discussed on a less technical basis). The statement was used to emphasize the more important topic at hand, nothing else. That being said, you haranguing me about minutiae when you and I both know this will end in your capitulation if I try to pursue it on any serious level, is a prime example of why people stray away from intelligent discourse on NeoGAF. At the end of the day, whether or not there is objective merit to the point I was making (and I assure you, there's oodles), I was voicing an opinion. Your condescending tone is very annoying and I'll politely ask you to stop distracting from what I initially wanted to discuss. Enough with this hoity-toity bullshit.


It is, because as any sane man would concede, I can't afford to waste that much time contrasting the relative ugliness of "cunt" and "faggot."

Wow, you are really reaching now. I know it will end in capitulation? You are being distracted from what you actually want to discuss? Don't stop now, this is getting interesting. What do you want to discuss? And present your evidence and see if I captiulate.

Please also point out where I have been derailing more pertinent discussion, and not just calling out your unsubstantiated absolute statements.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

If you cannot bring logic into the discussion of getting offended, there is no reason to implicitly or explicitly regulate the offensive, as anything could be considered offensive.

You have a very black and white outlook on things. Obviously there is more too it, depending on what hang ups people have. FYI I'm not arguing against it.


I'm just pointing out the incompetence in your own generalization. You can't conclude shit like this. Not everyone is the same, and in many situations it's reasonable to assume there is an agenda AS WELL. Subconscious or not.

 

[royalan]

Eh, she's apparently going to be one some Gaga songs, she'll be fine.

That collab was rumored to have fizzled out weeks ago. And if it hadn't yet, it definitely has now...

 

[botty]

Because being outspoken has no correlation to artistic talent? She's already worked with a handful of notable artists (Machinedrum is a well-respected producer), and I doubt many of them care about Twitter beefs.

See also: Tyler the Creator, The Weeknd, and other people I can't think of because literally none of this matters.

As expected, this thread has turned to literal analysis. "Faggot" and "cunt" are both colloquial pejoratives: neither word will forever offend, and comparing their relative strengths is silly.

Well, we can talk about Azealia's shady endeavors in the music industry. Her, and her record label attempted to release a song on iTunes before paying a producer their full dues. You can read about it here if you like. That situation also lead to a "twitter beef" between Azealia and the producer, Munchi. She's unprofessional, immature, vile, and doesn't really showcase much of what many people consider to be artist talent. Azealia has even admitted that almost everything she does is just copied from gay men, whom, according to her, may be the F word.

 

[Kyuuketsu_Night]

I like her music but hate that she acts/types like a dunce. All this unnecessary 'beef' makes it harder and harder to want to see her succeed.

I guess she'll join Rihanna as another one of my guilty pleasures. Really guilty =(

 

[royalan]

Well, we can talk about Azealia's shady endeavors in the music industry. Her, and her record label attempted to release a song on iTunes before paying a producer their full dues. You can read about it here if you like. That situation also lead to a "twitter beef" between Azealia and the producer, Munchi. She's unprofessional, immature, vile, and doesn't really showcase much of what many people consider to be artist talent. Azealia has even admitted that almost everything she does is just copied from gay men, whom, according to her, may be the F word.

Yep. Read ha sis.

Really, in hindsight, the writing was plastered on the walls when she got into that embarrassing beef with Munchi. Not only did he drag her ass to hell on twitter, he then revoked her rights to release their song on iTunes. He fucked her ego AND her wallet.

 

[Artemisia]

That collab was rumored to have fizzled out weeks ago. And if it hadn't yet, it definitely has now...

1) There is more than one collab.

2) Gaga wants azealia to open the BTWB in NY

3) Gaga works with Terry Richardson, wears fur, and put up with Boomkack's shit since the start of her career. What makes you think she will drop Azealia?

Well, we can talk about Azealia's shady endeavors in the music industry. Her, and her record label attempted to release a song on iTunes before paying a producer their full dues. You can read about it here if you like. That situation also lead to a "twitter beef" between Azealia and the producer, Munchi. She's unprofessional, immature, vile, and doesn't really showcase much of what many people consider to be artist talent. Azealia has even admitted that almost everything she does is just copied from gay men, whom, according to her, may be the F word.

What does this have to do with the idea that Azealia calling someone a faggot on twitter somehow preventing her career from starting?

 

[computers putin']

She's doing her best to burn down every possible bridge she has and not get her career off the ground. Too bad, her music is hit or miss and she's kinda rough as an artist, but she still has some really good and unique music out there and a has found a niche audience that she really appeals to ( or at least she did )

 

[botty]

What does this have to do with the idea that Azealia calling someone a faggot on twitter somehow preventing her career from starting?

Well, aside from showing a history of being a messy artist -- like MTV's timeline of Azealia's beefs shows-- I am just pointing out how this type of behavior will cause you to lose fans, and, if you start burning producer, lose industry support.

 

[GG-Duo]

It seems like it's been a long time since "212" dropped. Does she have an LP yet?

 

[Artemisia]

Well, aside from showing a history of being a messy artist -- like MTV's timeline of Azealia's beefs shows-- I am just pointing out how this type of behavior will cause you to lose fans, and, if you start burning producer, lose industry support.

Artists having beefs is nothing new. There are several prominent hip hop artists that have had beefs with other artists in the game. I do acknowledge that there are some things she's done that will put potential influences on her career off, but simply having arguments with other artists is not gonna ruin her career. And there are people who will work with fucking Chris Brown and send his albums and songs to the top of the charts. She will be just fine.

Anyway, if the album is to be released this February, then the album is pretty much done at this point.

 

[botty]

Artists having beefs is nothing new. There are several prominent hip hop artists that have had beefs with other artists in the game. I do acknowledge that there are some things she's done that will put potential influences on her career off, but simply having arguments with other artists is not gonna ruin her career. And there are people who will work with fucking Chris Brown and send his albums and songs to the top of the charts. She will be just fine.

Anyway, if the album is to be released this February, then the album is pretty much done at this point.

Ok, well you're changing the point you wanted to stick to, which is saying certain words effecting her career. If you want to switch to this subject, though, we can. Azealia doesn't just have arguments with other artist. She is loud, and crass. It's almost as if she has no management team behind her to tell her what not to do and what to do. For example, you don't go on twitter and make strangely vague accusations of someone "touching" you, like she did to Coldplay's manager, Dave Holmes. Now I am not saying the guy has the right to touch her, and she should remain silent, but very serious accusations could be made about a potentially innocent guy... just cause of her reckless tweet.

Who would want to work with someone so reckless? Someone who has show she easily beefs with many artist, producers, fans and makes crazy ass claims that are instantly sent to twitter? All of this is just another reason to avoid her.

You brought up Chris Brown as if he wasn't blacklisted after his incident, or that his career hasn't been on the decline since. The only reason he still sells, or even gets credit is because he is an established artist whose career was high enough to take such a blow. Unlike Azealia is just a never-will-be artist, with no establishments.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Glad I didn't bother checking out her music.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

I don't know why she would do something like this, considering most of her fan base is made up of homosexual males.

How exactly does one ascertain this information?

 

[Yoshiya]

You brought up Chris Brown as if he wasn't blacklisted after his incident, or that his career hasn't been on the decline since. The only reason he still sells, or even gets credit is because he is an established artist whose career was high enough to take such a blow. Unlike Azealia is just a never-will-be artist, with no establishments.

While it's true that she isn't all that established, she also has strangely little competition. It seems possible her twitter antics have scared off potential feature verses/collaborations, which seem to be Minaj's bread and butter. Still, I see her career progressing just fine - hasn't a Kanye collaboration been confirmed?

How exactly does one ascertain this information?

Her fanbase seems somewhat like Frank Ocean's - varying success within traditional genre crowds and an expanded audience whose most ardent listeners seem to be, in no small part, guys into guys.

 

[davepoobond]

Glad I didn't bother checking out her music.

cause like, if she cant even define "faggot" right, how much worse is the rest of her music??!

 

[NinjaBoiX]

cause like, if she cant even define "faggot" right, how much worse is the rest of her music??!

I think he means, "I would want to support the career of someone like this." It's a fair point, I quite like her stuff, but she's a fucking bell end at the end of the day.

 

[Darko]

What's an Azealia?

Iggy azealia

 

[davepoobond]

I think he means, "I would want to support the career of someone like this." It's a fair point, I quite like her stuff, but she's a fucking bell end at the end of the day.

someone who doesn't understand how to use vocabulary? or someone that instantly flip flops from intentionally trying to be offensive to apologetic? i'm not entirely sure what part of this we're supposed to be really offended at.

 

[ant1532]

fuck perez hilton

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

To people saying "eh, it's perez hilton", it doesn't matter who she said it to, his actions shouldn't dictate how she acted or what she said. Excusing what someone says becuse of who they are or who they are saying something to is never a good thing. Never really been a fan, definitely not going to give her a chance in the future. Even her definition is an insult, "men acting like women", as if it's a negative thing, god forbid feminine attributes be seen as a positive characteristic. Now who will we have to usurp Nicki?

 

[SlowRevolution]

Now who will we have to usurp Nicki?

Willow Smith

 

[NinjaBoiX]

someone who doesn't understand how to use vocabulary? or someone that instantly flip flops from intentionally trying to be offensive to apologetic? i'm not entirely sure what part of this we're supposed to be really offended at.

I don't necessarily need to be offended by someone to think they're a tool.

 

[botty]

Now who will we have to usurp Nicki?

No one. Ever.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Fags..

Faggots..

..what's the misunderstanding.?

 

[strobogo]

Something something faggot coathanger?

This made me lol for real.

On the issue of terrible words being used in comedy, I think just about every word is valid in a comedy set. It's the context in which they are said that matters. You could say something terrible like "all you fags should die" at a comedy show and in context, it could be funny. It's not the same as some random person shouting it at two guys holding hands in public. Not that there aren't shitty comics who use offensive stuff just to be offensive, which is fine when you're actually funny.


A weird example of how the same joke can mean different things in different contexts. Dice and Sam Kinison both had a very similar homophobic joke in their sets around the same time. Almost word for word in some parts. But when Dice did the joke, it was funny (eh, debatable) because you knew it was a character who was saying ridiculous shit to get a rise out of people. When Kinison did it, it had a completely different context and is very uncomfortable to listen to today, because his joke wasn't coming out of the same place as Dice's. It was hateful and not funny, where as Dice's was satirical and ridiculous. Although I don't think the Dice character or Sam were very funny, nor does most of their work hold up at all. Sam's in particular since he said a lot of truly hateful and spiteful things without the context of "this is a character saying ridiculous shit".

 

[Discotheque]

She sucks and also Louis ck did this better

 

[leadbelly]

Give me the literal definition of "cunt," and try to argue that it is not a gendered slur. Assuming, of course, that you agree that sex and gender are concepts, in some way or another, tied together.

...

I suppose 'dick' is a gendered slur then.

 

[davepoobond]

...

I suppose 'dick' is a gendered slur then.

how is it not?

 

[leadbelly]

how is it not?

Fine. I'm happy with that.

I was assuming by 'gendered slur' he was meaning something gender-specific like 'bitch' or 'slut'. I've never known 'dick' or 'cunt' used in that context. :s

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Angel Haze is better anyway.

They are tweefing (god I can't believe I just typed that) as well

only at least we have got 2 decent throwback diss records out of haze from it

banks tried to snap back but how the fuck you gonna try diss someone on a techno beat?

Haze's latest diss....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnGMtnlNsL8

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

People who aren't the target of a slur trying to "reclaim" that word rustles my jimmies something fierce. Cripes.

There is no need to be upset.

 

[Phonomezer]

I'd have called Perez Hilton worse. Azealia's shade is basic anyway, she's no Lady Sovereign.

tweefing

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I'd have called Perez Hilton worse. Azealia's shade is basic anyway, she's no Lady Sovereign.

Yeah. It's actually a "thing" now.

 

[Dead Man]

I'd have called Perez Hilton worse. Azealia's shade is basic anyway, she's no Lady Sovereign.

Best gif.

 

[agrajag]

Not any more than straight guys do. Just because we're not attracted to them doesn't mean we can't be called out for being sexist buttholes.

Anyways, this is not surprising. She got into another feud a couple days ago and said some transphobic shit.

I see gay guys on GAF call women bitches all the time, and it bothers me. Maybe I don't know or understand a lot of things, but I think it's not cool. Thanks for being one of the cool ones.

 

[Aguirre]

Class. Do you know what class is?

cant you tell he has fat stacks of class?

 

[Cipherr]

Because you use the word it "looses" its meaning for everyone else?

You read his post wrong, he never said he used the word.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

The biggest irony in all this is that she is either fully gay or at least bisexual. You would think she would have a little more senstivity in what she is saying.

 

[krazen]

How exactly does one ascertain this information?

It's a stretch to say that it's her entire fan base(and borderline homophobic), but she has been courting the gay ball culture (a la Paris is Burning).

I remember her last big concert in NYC was called the Mermaid Ball and advertised along those lines.

Either way, she's portrayed herself as a very queer friendly, if not as an outright queer artist herself (referring to her bisexuality) so this is a full 360. I remember having a discussion with an activist friend of mine and she said her rise, Mykki Blanco, Leif, and other proud and out artists made hip-hop interesting again...I guess no more hip-hop for her.

That said, I always thought her twitter beefs was just badly planned publicity ploys...now thi confirms she's just a fucking moron.

 

[Messypandas]

No doubt a desperate move for them both to get attention

 

[Ravensmash]

What a silly thing to say, and then to dig a hole like that. People need to learn when to stop talking, lol

Give me the literal definition of "cunt," and try to argue that it is not a gendered slur. Assuming, of course, that you agree that sex and gender are concepts, in some way or another, tied together.

I hear cunt used a fair bit, and I assure you that 98% of the time it has absolutely no connection to gender whatsoever, regardless of the historics.

But here are some literal definitions for you:

"Cunt is also used as a derogatory epithet referring to people of either sex. This usage is relatively recent, dating from the late nineteenth century.[3] Reflecting different national usages, cunt is described as "an unpleasant or stupid person" in the Compact Oxford English Dictionary, whereas Merriam-Webster has a usage of the term as "usually disparaging and obscene: woman",[4] noting that it is used in the U.S. as "an offensive way to refer to a woman";[5] the Macquarie Dictionary of Australian English states that it is "a despicable man", however when used with a positive qualifier (good, funny, clever, etc.) in Britain, New Zealand and Australia, it can convey a positive sense of the object or person referred to.[6]"

 

[JohnDoe]

I hate these new artists who get a decent following in the indie blogosphere or on the internet generally and then start running their mouths like idiots instead of recording good songs.