Support NeoGAF

[Spectral Glider]

What I'd love would be a 60s-retro styled tube TV, no more than 15", that looks like it would have belonged in a kid's bedroom. Something like that would be so great to wheel out with a NES for guests of the right age.

Not sure about a 60s set, but I have one of these from my childhood still out in my garage today, and it happens to be the very set that I used for NES and C-64 gaming back then. Originally bought it in either 85 or 86:

http://visualalchemy.tv/catalog/13in-and-under-crt-consumer-tvs/13in-sony-kv-1397r/

Friggen thing still works perfect too. It will not die. Though back in the day I did put old unshielded speakers next to it and caused one of the corners to turn a slight green.

 

[radjago]

If you really want something small without any design elements, get a smallish arcade monitor. Or, even better, get an old Commodore 64 monitor. With the right hardware you can get RGB to that thing and it looks killer.

Yes! Commodore (and Amiga) monitors are godly for SD content. I've seen larger professional video production monitors from Sony and Panasonic that are almost as good. If you want the best reproduction of the SD content, find a monitor with RGB input.

 

[JRW]

Yes! Commodore (and Amiga) monitors are godly for SD content. I've seen larger professional video production monitors from Sony and Panasonic that are almost as good. If you want the best reproduction of the SD content, find a monitor with RGB input.

I used to have the original Sega Genesis which had an RGB output (sega removed it from newer models) I had a custom RGB cable built for my Amiga 1080 monitor and Ive never seen Genesis look so sharp and colorful.

Of course nowadays you could get the same results via emulation but that's another topic.

 

[Zing]

I own two Sony WEGA KV-32FS120. I had one and loved it. I feared the day something happened to it, so as soon as I saw another available locally, I grabbed it and put it in my closet.

I currently have a NES, SNES, and PSone connected to it. I did have a Wii connected via component, but I was no longer interested, and wanted to free up the input for a DVD player. I also had a PS2 connected to it years ago, but sold off my PS2 collection and "downgraded" to a PSone.

Games look great on this. I did a lot of research and this is pretty much the ideal set for gaming pre-HD. Later models have high scan or HD circuitry, which introduce input lag and visual artifacts into 240p consoles such as these. This set has 3D digital comb filter, the best you can get for composite input. It also has s-video and component inputs. It was made in 2005, so it isn't a billion years old with a lot of phosphor wear.

If you are buying a standard definition set, I don't see why you would select anything but a Sony WEGA FD Trinitron. Don't get the 34" 16:9 or any XBR or high-scan models. The FS/FV line is the best you will find.

 

[Zing]

I have two similar Wega TVs, not that exact model though. Really sharp picture but 2D geometry is just terrible on them. Got them at the same time so it might have been a bad batch.

Both sets I acquired used had horrible geometry. In fact, I was able to get $50 knocked off my first set because the one corner was so distorted. Of course, I knew all along that this was an easy fix in the service menus.

The only geometry which is not fixable via the menus on a WEGA is horizontal linearity. In other words, it's possible that your image may be stretched in places along the horizontal axis and there is nothing you can do about it. Everything else appears to be fixable in the menus. Both of my sets are now almost perfect. One set does have a minor amount of the above mention non-linearity, but you don't notice it unless you are actually looking at a crosshatch test signal. I should mention that high-scan/HD WEGA CRTs have circuitry to fix even this error. So they are 100% tweakable.

The main thing to look for when shopping for the CRT is convergence. This is rarely fixable on any set, at least not without taking the set apart and using physical magnets glued to the tube. I always take a DVD player with me when picking up the TV to put up a test pattern. Look for colors that do not line up, especially in the corners.

 

[Sagitario]

Both sets I acquired used had horrible geometry. In fact, I was able to get $50 knocked off my first set because the one corner was so distorted. Of course, I knew all along that this was an easy fix in the service menus.

The only geometry which is not fixable via the menus on a WEGA is horizontal linearity. In other words, it's possible that your image may be stretched in places along the horizontal axis and there is nothing you can do about it. Everything else appears to be fixable in the menus. Both of my sets are now almost perfect. One set does have a minor amount of the above mention non-linearity, but you don't notice it unless you are actually looking at a crosshatch test signal. I should mention that high-scan/HD WEGA CRTs have circuitry to fix even this error. So they are 100% tweakable.

Do you know how? I have an old Wega 25" with some problems I and would like to fix them, but I am afraid of going to the service menu

 

[Firebrand]

Both sets I acquired used had horrible geometry. In fact, I was able to get $50 knocked off my first set because the one corner was so distorted. Of course, I knew all along that this was an easy fix in the service menus.

The only geometry which is not fixable via the menus on a WEGA is horizontal linearity. In other words, it's possible that your image may be stretched in places along the horizontal axis and there is nothing you can do about it. Everything else appears to be fixable in the menus. Both of my sets are now almost perfect. One set does have a minor amount of the above mention non-linearity, but you don't notice it unless you are actually looking at a crosshatch test signal. I should mention that high-scan/HD WEGA CRTs have circuitry to fix even this error. So they are 100% tweakable.

The main thing to look for when shopping for the CRT is convergence. This is rarely fixable on any set, at least not without taking the set apart and using physical magnets glued to the tube. I always take a DVD player with me when picking up the TV to put up a test pattern. Look for colors that do not line up, especially in the corners.

Yeah, the stretching is what annoys me I think, if you have a playfield scrolling across the screen it seems to contract and expand as it scrolls by. I'll see if I can dig up instructions for the service menu and improve it a bit, thanks.

 

[dark10x]

Do you know how? I have an old Wega 25" with some problems I and would like to fix them, but I am afraid of going to the service menu

You can enter service mode by pressing "display" then "5" then "volume" and finally "power". If you do this from a powered off state you should enter service mode. Look for stuff like VPOS and VSIZ for sizing and positioning. There are a lot of options and most of them are harmless when it comes to fiddling, provided you keep the original values in mind. You can make an adjustment and see the effects and then restore the original value or make your own.

To save the changes press "mute" then "enter" and you'll see "writing" appear in red. After this just power off. If you hit power at any time without saving, you'll go back to the settings that were already in there. This is nice to know if you screw something up.

I don't take responsibility if you break something, though.

 

[mt1200]

So supposing that almost all Wega tv's had been turned on daily for 6+ hours since 2004-2006, will the colours be good?, do they fade too much over time?.

 

[Sagitario]

You can enter service mode by pressing "display" then "5" then "volume" and finally "power". If you do this from a powered off state you should enter service mode. Look for stuff like VPOS and VSIZ for sizing and positioning. There are a lot of options and most of them are harmless when it comes to fiddling, provided you keep the original values in mind. You can make an adjustment and see the effects and then restore the original value or make your own.

To save the changes press "mute" then "enter" and you'll see "writing" appear in red. After this just power off. If you hit power at any time without saving, you'll go back to the settings that were already in there. This is nice to know if you screw something up.

I don't take responsibility if you break something, though.

Will try this weekend. Thank you very much

 

[Zing]

You can enter service mode by pressing "display" then "5" then "volume" and finally "power". If you do this from a powered off state you should enter service mode. Look for stuff like VPOS and VSIZ for sizing and positioning. There are a lot of options and most of them are harmless when it comes to fiddling, provided you keep the original values in mind. You can make an adjustment and see the effects and then restore the original value or make your own.

I strongly suggest not changing any settings not in the "DEF" category. As mentioned above, these are the basic settings, such as horizontal and vertical size and position, bowing, pincushions, and linearity.

If at any time you feel you want to go back to your previous settings without saving, you can just turn the TV off. You also need to turn off the TV to exit the service mode.

On these older WEGAs, most settings are tied to a specific input type. So if you make the adjustments with one composite input, all your composite inputs will be affected.

 

[Souther]

This is the best place to read if you want to know exactly what each option does in the service menu. Just going into the service menu without knowledge of how to navigate it and changing values is just asking for trouble.

Changing values requires having to use the #'s on the remote, not just using the directional buttons. Anyways, it's all in there.

http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/sonyadj.html

 

[Sagitario]

Thanks for the info, guys!

 

[Black Republican]

anyone know if say a 15" hdtv would be ok for displaying my ps2/wii games on? the smaller the screen the better for sd gaming in general?

 

[Shai-Tan]

anyone know if say a 15" hdtv would be ok for displaying my ps2/wii games on? the smaller the screen the better for sd gaming in general?

I have played quite a few PS2 games on a 13" CRT and it looked sharp but some of the detail was lost e.g. small text that is legible on a larger tv is more difficult to see. It's a tradeoff because it can look better than a larger TV like how thumbnails of screenshots can look better than the original. 15" is probably better but I haven't tested screen sizes up to 20" to know where the detail dropoff ends (small tv tend to have fewer lines I guess). I had been looking for a nice 20" to replace the 25" TV I also use but nothing great was ever listed on craigslist/kijiji when I was searching

 

[Zing]

anyone know if say a 15" hdtv would be ok for displaying my ps2/wii games on? the smaller the screen the better for sd gaming in general?

Those systems output 480i/p, and will look fine on any TV. I played PS2 and Wii via component on a 50" screen and it looked fabulous. I think the key is to not buy a cheap TV. I had a Sony 50" rear projection LCD. My friend has a 42" high end Sony LCD and Wii looks great on it. Cheap, small LCDs will look like crap.

CRTs benefit the older 240p systems (before PS2/GameCube/Xbox). The size of the screen doesn't matter. I'd rather have a bigger screen to help accommodate multiplayer games, and allow me to decide how far I wish to sit from the TV. A small screen pretty much requires you to sit close.

 

[TheExodu5]

A 15" HDTV is likely to be a very low quality TN panel. I wouldn't think anything would look particularly good on it.

 

[CoachKevin]

Sorry to bump this back up, but two tvs popped up for free in my area and I am not sure which one to pick up. 99% of it's use will be for NES/SNES/Genesis/N64 and hopefully Sega Saturn gaming. Which one is the better pickup?

One is a 34" Sony HD 34HS510:



Or a 32" Sony Wega Trinitron:

 

[Gravijah]

you lucky bastard.

 

[plagiarize]

You should get the HD one if you have any interest in playing Wii and/or PS2/Xbox/Cube generation games. I'd love an HD CRT. They are much harder to find than SD ones and display SD content just as well as an SDTV.

Just aquired this for free yesterday though, fiiiiinally.

I'm not sure how big this thing is, but it's BIG and getting it in the house was an absolute bitch. Totally worth it though!

 

[DrFunk]

Sorry to bump this back up, but two tvs popped up for free in my area and I am not sure which one to pick up. 99% of it's use will be for NES/SNES/Genesis/N64 and hopefully Sega Saturn gaming. Which one is the better pickup?


Or a 32" Sony Wega Trinitron:

Holy shit, I have one of these sitting in the basement at home, collecting dust. Didn't know it was that good of a tv..

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Get the 4:3. It'll take up less space and you don't need 16:9 for retro.

 

[CoachKevin]

OK guess I will just go with the 32" non hd one. thanks

 

[Bill Rizer]

Ideally, the best would be a full analog CRT like those from the early-mid '90s. Flat screens like Sony Wega and Panasonic Quintrix are already digital tvs, they digitalize the picture introducing artifacts, mostly dithering, and while CRT's strenghts are still there, they don't look quite near to the quality of a good analog tube.
My Philips from 1995 destroys the 10-years-newer Trinitron Wega as of definition, geometry and color (it isn't even able to adjust color on this set in RGB, given that the signal is directly piloting the tube, it gives the purest unhandled picture you can think of and I still take it as a reference for color rendition when i have to adjust color on my other tvs).

 

[Jay Sosa]

Would this one be a good pick up?:

European Model: KV-32 FX65E 16:9 100HZ

Or that one?:

Modell KV-32FX68E

EDIT: I want a 16:9 cause quite a few newer PS2 games support it.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

EDIT: I want a 16:9 cause quite a few newer PS2 games support it.

Pretty sure the Xbox is the only last gen system that supports anamorphic widescreen. PS2 and GC games are 'fake' widescreen and just squish the image accordingly.

 

[Harlock]

Don´t forget to get the best thing about playing in a old TV:

The best light gun of all time

Classic Master System light gun games

Light Phaser and 3D together!

 

[ghibli99]

Good point about oldschool light gun games!

 

[CoachKevin]

I hope to pick up a Saturn package with a light gun. Never owned one and loved playing Virtua Cop in the arcades.

 

[LCGeek]

People are already posting the best mainstream type of tv tech you get and sony trinoton especially the flat screen types.

This isn't a tv but last productions series was only like bit worse and didn't have the resolution. 480p content or less it was basically the same barring color correction scanerios.

The last shot shows a pitch black situation.

Next time people say this shit can't be done 480p pay attention to the clarity of the text from off cam shot. CRTS are basically the best unless you go over 1080p.

 

[plagiarize]

Pretty sure the Xbox is the only last gen system that supports anamorphic widescreen. PS2 and GC games are 'fake' widescreen and just squish the image accordingly.

there's nothing 'fake' about it. the PS2 and GC do exactly what anamorphic widescreen DVDs do, they just can't send a signal indicating the content is widescreen to have the TV automatically stretch the image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic_widescreen

anamorphic means that the pixels aren't square.

 

[-KRS-]

I still don't get why they don't produce new CRTs anymore. I mean, there must be a lot of people like us out there who prefers the picture quality of a great CRT TV and still want their retro games to look good in the future? They wouldn't necessarily even need to mass produce them as I'm sure the mass market wouldn't be interested, but it could be like some enthusiast thing or something, so they could even charge more for them. Why isn't anyone doing this?!

I don't want an LCD or Plasma or whatever because I can't afford to get one that has better image quality than my Trinitron CRT, and even the top of the line are usually worse in some cases, especially black levels and color reproduction. The only thing that's better with LCDs are the geometry and the fact that there's no overscan.

 

[Zing]

Ideally, the best would be a full analog CRT like those from the early-mid '90s. Flat screens like Sony Wega and Panasonic Quintrix are already digital tvs, they digitalize the picture introducing artifacts, mostly dithering, and while CRT's strenghts are still there, they don't look quite near to the quality of a good analog tube.

This is incorrect. Only the "high scan" Wegas digitize the signal.

I don't want an LCD or Plasma or whatever because I can't afford to get one that has better image quality than my Trinitron CRT, and even the top of the line are usually worse in some cases, especially black levels and color reproduction. The only thing that's better with LCDs are the geometry and the fact that there's no overscan.

Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. I agree with this completely. It boggles my mind that CRT was replaced by clearly inferior technology so quickly.

I could never bring myself to pay over $1000 for a TV that has such glaring flaws as current plasma and LCD panels. I don't even mean for retro gaming. I mean just for watching regular HD and DVD content! All the current models, both LCD and plasma, have ridiculous flaws that should only exist in no-name TVs from Walmart. For example: dithering? Seriously? That's a problem for GIFs from 1995, and shouldn't be in a 1080p TV from 2012.

 

[dark10x]

You should get the HD one if you have any interest in playing Wii and/or PS2/Xbox/Cube generation games. I'd love an HD CRT. They are much harder to find than SD ones and display SD content just as well as an SDTV.

Not true.

I have two Sony CRTs; one is HD while the other is SD. The HD one is sitting in the basement in storage while I use the SD for my retro gaming. For 240p content, the HD CRT still introduces artifacts while moving which changes the picture characteristics quite a bit. For my money you can't beat the old scanlines of an SDTV.

That said, 480p content is glorious on the HD Sony and I still bust it out for that once in a while.

 

[Eusis]

I still don't get why they don't produce new CRTs anymore.

Supply & demand probably isn't there, not being perceived as cutting edge, and the insane bulk most people are happy to be rid of. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the reductions in shipping alone could make that worthwhile to them.

 

[Zing]

EDIT: I want a 16:9 cause quite a few newer PS2 games support it.

I strongly suggest against this. 16:9 on the PS2 is done by cropping the image, not showing you more screen area. In other words, you actually see less of the screen when using 16:9.

Basically, instead of the game extending the view on each side, it cuts off the top and bottom of the 4:3 image, then zooms in. I am fairly certain that every PS2 game does this. It is done this way because showing more of the view on each side would force the system to render more screen area, and cause slowdown.

 

[-KRS-]

Supply & demand probably isn't there, not being perceived as cutting edge, and the insane bulk most people are happy to be rid of. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the reductions in shipping alone could make that worthwhile to them.

Well yes, but I said they wouldn't need to mass produce them. They don't even need to sell them in stores or whatever. It should be an enthusiast thing that's sold online or something. And since they don't mass produce them and sell them to enthusiasts, they could raise the prices a bit. And even so they'd still probably be cheaper than top of the line flat panels because the technology is so old.

It's just so weird to me that no one has even attempted to fill that niche, because clearly there are people out there who still prefer CRTs.

 

[Eusis]

I strongly suggest against this. 16:9 on the PS2 is done by cropping the image, not showing you more screen area. In other words, you actually see less of the screen when using 16:9.

Basically, instead of the game extending the view on each side, it cuts off the top and bottom of the 4:3 image, then zooms in. I am fairly certain that every PS2 game does this. It is done this way because showing more of the view on each side would force the system to render more screen area, and cause slowdown.

No, there's one exception at least: Dragon Quest VIII, that actually does expand, though the text boxes and menus can be a bit nasty, ironic how this addition clashes with the addition of fancier menus. And actually I believe what more commonly happens is that the proportions are adjusted, so a 4:3 image has a bit of the top cut off and a bit added at the sides. I've kept toggling for some games, but I think going back I'm simply not going to bother unless it's truely expanding, so... probably just for Dragon Quest VIII.

Well yes, but I said they wouldn't need to mass produce them. They don't even need to sell them in stores or whatever. It should be an enthusiast thing that's sold online or something. And since they don't mass produce them and sell them to enthusiasts, they could raise the prices a bit. And even so they'd still probably be cheaper than top of the line flat panels because the technology is so old.

It's just so weird to me that no one has even attempted to fill that niche, because clearly there are people out there who still prefer CRTs.

Maybe even as a niche product it's just not practical, and it does seem we have stuff like those scalers for older games (would kinda like to have one of those eventually actually). They're not exactly the kind of thing you'd want taking up space in a store or even warehouse I bet.

 

[plagiarize]

Not true.

I have two Sony CRTs; one is HD while the other is SD. The HD one is sitting in the basement in storage while I use the SD for my retro gaming. For 240p content, the HD CRT still introduces artifacts while moving which changes the picture characteristics quite a bit. For my money you can't beat the old scanlines of an SDTV.

That said, 480p content is glorious on the HD Sony and I still bust it out for that once in a while.

good to know. i wasn't thinking about 240p content when i wrote that.

I strongly suggest against this. 16:9 on the PS2 is done by cropping the image, not showing you more screen area. In other words, you actually see less of the screen when using 16:9.

Basically, instead of the game extending the view on each side, it cuts off the top and bottom of the 4:3 image, then zooms in. I am fairly certain that every PS2 game does this. It is done this way because showing more of the view on each side would force the system to render more screen area, and cause slowdown.

this is on a game by game basis. some PS2 games display with a wider horizontal FOV when you set them to widescreen. some are vert -, but it's not anything to do with the PS2 hardware, just how the game devs chose to handle it. later on, more and more games coming out were vert + rather than horizontal -.

 

[Dave_6]

I've got a 32" Sanyo 4:3 flat screen CRT (heavy as shit!) that I have a slim PS2, N64 and a SNES hooked up to. It has one set of component inputs that I have the PS2 hooked up to and the N64/SNES are hooked up via S-video. All three systems look fantastic on it and my Pioneer Kuro wishes it could do black levels like this thing can.

Odd thing is it has component inputs but I'm 99% sure it isn't an HD TV. I think they're for taking a 480P input and nothing more. The PS2 looks great running thru them though.

 

[Jay Sosa]

So you guys are saying I should rather get a 4:3 one?

Kinda makes more sense I guess..

 

[-KRS-]

Maybe even as a niche product it's just not practical, and it does seem we have stuff like those scalers for older games (would kinda like to have one of those eventually actually). They're not exactly the kind of thing you'd want taking up space in a store or even warehouse I bet.

Yes I do agree that companies probably wouldn't want CRTs sitting around their warehouses. But that's why someone should start a company that ONLY sells CRTs to enthusiasts. Since no one else is doing it there wouldn't be any competition. They'd need someone to manufacture them though and that could be a problem. And naturally enthusiasts would want them to have a license to make Trinitron style CRTs, so that would be another problem.

And about scalers. This isn't only about older games. It's about clearly better picture quality that so far I've yet to see matched by any flat panel display. A scaler might make it so the image is not completely blurry, but it won't fix the problems I have with flat panel displays. The color reproduction will still be inferior, the black levels will not be as deep, there will be artifacts in the picture, there will be clouding, there will be banding issues. And no, these issues will not disappear if you buy a top of the line display. They might be better, but they won't be perfect.

My friend recently bought a Samsung TV for around $2500 and all I could think was that the picture looked decent. Not great, not fantastic. Decent. I don't want decent, I want great. The display had pretty obvious banding issues, and naturally the blacks weren't very black at all, colors looked a bit off, there was dithering. I didn't tell him this though because I didn't want to be a dick. And yes, I tried to change the settings for colors, backlight and such things.

$2500 during the CRT days used to get you the best TV you had ever seen, with no real flaws, that would easily last you for 10+ years without breaking. If I can't get a perfect flat-panel TV for $2500, I don't want one.


...uh sorry about the rant. It wasn't really aimed directly at you or anything. I just wanted to vent a bit. :|

 

[jmdajr]

I need to get rid if my 4:3 hd trinitron. Sad but its too big.

 

[Lambtron]

I have a 36" JVC tube TV all my older shit is hooked up to. It took me forever to find a decent stand, and lifting the 250 lb beast onto it was rough, but I love it. No way am I moving that TV when I move though.

 

[CoachKevin]

I need to get rid if my 4:3 hd trinitron. Sad but its too big.

That is exactly what I am looking for in the 32" range. Someone locally has a 36" version that is 245lbs and on the third floor of a house...

 

[Paracelsus]

I got a 32'' Philips CRT for free...is it normal to have those lines around objects?

http://i.imgur.com/0B6Rj.jpg

 

[dark10x]

I got a 32'' Philips CRT for free...is it normal to have those lines around objects?

http://i.imgur.com/0B6Rj.jpg

Zoom out a bit.

Could be sharpening?

 

[Jake Tower]

I kept my Orion 27" from Walmart for my past-gen gaming, and it works great.

I remember how the TV departments changed seemingly overnight from CRT to LCD/Plasma.

 

[Jake Tower]

So you guys are saying I should rather get a 4:3 one?

Kinda makes more sense I guess..

For past-gen gaming, yes.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

My trinitron is starting to mess up. The picture is slowly starting to move upward so that the top of picture starts to flip on itself. Sucks, but I'm probably not going to spend money on a crt unless I can find these free ones people seem to be finding in this thread.