Pai Pai Master
Banned
She is not an educator. She has neither taught at nor attended a public school in her life.
Educate yourself.
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Betsy DeVos doesn't know the difference between growth and proficiency
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She is not an educator. She has neither taught at nor attended a public school in her life.
Educate yourself.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
False.
Netherscourge
Banned
Tim Kaine absolutely shredded her.
He walked her to the cliff so many times from every angle and she just jumped right off like a moron.
He walked her to the cliff so many times from every angle and she just jumped right off like a moron.
She probably wouldn't if the democratic party hadn't used the nuclear option to eliminate filibusters of Presidential nominees. But I suspect shell be confirmed on a party line vote.
Betsy DeVos is not an educator she is someone that contributes to privatizing education. If she were an educator she would have known the answers to the basic, fundamental questions she was asked yesterday. I'm so tired of the narrative that teachers are failing kids when there are so many other issues outside of the classroom that educators have no say so in that effect learning.
cpp_is_king
Member
Got it after the first post, pointless dogpile is pointless. My bad. I did say more in that post other than just that she was an educator though
And for anyone thinking I like DeVos, I don't
And for anyone thinking I like DeVos, I don't
The Jackdog
Member
so what the fuck are you doing man?
seriously wondering.
Like, i know youre a trump guy. whatever. fine. you seriously cant just objectively look at this pick as being atrocious, terribly misguided, and bad for education?
its not about shit like proficiency and growth. thats a whole different issue that you can form an opinion on and have, sure. the point is, this dumbass doesnt even know what either of them are. this is first year first DAY teacher shit. Not conflicting ideas. literally the basics. like the alphabet of teaching. and she doesnt have a clue. not to mention all the other frankly terrible answers like not knowing what an I.D.E.A is and more, but even that alone should completely disqualify her
cpp_is_king
Member
Well, we can certainly agree on this (i think anyway). Parents and (lack of) a stable home life are probably the biggest problem of all.
Forgotten_Taco
Member
The Irony of you railing on 'half-assing' and then not know DeVos' credentials is not lost on us.
Perfect Blue
Banned
Probably the worst pick of the litter in Trump's cabinet. Betsy De Vos and her millionaire ilk trying to profit off education and destroy teachers' unions are some of the most vile scum in politics.
This is a good article illustrating the kind of damage these people do: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/08/when-public-goes-private-as-trump-wants-what-happens/
This is a good article illustrating the kind of damage these people do: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/08/when-public-goes-private-as-trump-wants-what-happens/
Bingo.
Same. I can't see how anyone can watch this woman get grilled and think she's acceptable for this position. Like fuck, put partisanship aside and just listen to the questions being asked and her responses. This woman will be responsible for setting the tone of your child's education. She is absolutely unqualified for this position.
cpp_is_king
Member
Give me a break, if you're going to equate half-assing one's way through their entire life as a guiding principle with making a mistake on an internet forum then I don't know what to tell you.
If this thread were only about "She doesn't know the difference between proficiency and growth, that's terrible" then there's not much to really discuss after the first few posts. One and done, thread over. Tangents arise in the course of a thread, and in this case it veered into teaching methodologies. I don't think that's entirely off topic here, and I think it can be discussed in parallel with DeVos's failure to answer the question of growth vs. proficiency. I don't have to like DeVos to have an opinion on teaching methodologies.
Like I said, I'm on record as saying I don't like her. Mainly because of her strong religious convictions (I'm atheist), but she also just strikes me as a bad person and she uses too much politi-speak to dodge questions instead of giving straight answers even if she thinks it isn't what the questioner wants to hear.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
It literally doesn't matter to the people in charge of confirming her because they're all old shits so their kids are either grown or their grandkids are probably going into private education anyways
This is literally just a bunch of old rich people determining the fates of young middle class and poor children for the next generation
In her confirmation hearing this week, the prospective cabinet member faced questions about her prominent donations to the anti-gay marriage lobby.
She previously donated $200,000 in a successful bid to add an anti-gay marriage amendment to the Michigan ballot.
DeVos family organisations have also made large donations to anti-gay marriage causes – with more than $10 million sent Focus On the Family, a Christian group that advocates gay ‘cure' therapy, as well as $500,000 to the National Organization for Marriage, and $100,000 to Florida4Marriage.
Senator Al Franken challenged her on the issue, asserting: ”Your family has a long history of supporting anti-LGBT causes including donating millions of dollars to groups that push conversion therapy, the practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity.
”For example, you and your family have given over $10 million to Focus On the Family, an organization that currently states on its website that, ‘homosexual strugglers can and do change their sexual behavior and identity'.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/1...over-donations-to-gay-cure-therapy-advocates/
Fuck people like this
She previously donated $200,000 in a successful bid to add an anti-gay marriage amendment to the Michigan ballot.
DeVos family organisations have also made large donations to anti-gay marriage causes – with more than $10 million sent Focus On the Family, a Christian group that advocates gay ‘cure' therapy, as well as $500,000 to the National Organization for Marriage, and $100,000 to Florida4Marriage.
Senator Al Franken challenged her on the issue, asserting: ”Your family has a long history of supporting anti-LGBT causes including donating millions of dollars to groups that push conversion therapy, the practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity.
”For example, you and your family have given over $10 million to Focus On the Family, an organization that currently states on its website that, ‘homosexual strugglers can and do change their sexual behavior and identity'.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/1...over-donations-to-gay-cure-therapy-advocates/
Fuck people like this
GhaleonQ
Member
You should read it. It is good.
I am linking to his chastisement based on the actually, not fake, bipartisan Every Student Succeeds Act revision meant to limit his power because of Duncan pissing off Republicans and Democrats.
"have the complex and nuanced understanding of public education necessary to guide education department" doesn't mean "do whatever you want."
NeoGAF is fun. It's the Acton Institute. If anything, they're boring.
DocSeuss, I'm not saying any of those are wrong (though they are), but if you wanted untainted information,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bennet#Committee_assignments the dude on the committe's brother is the head of the editorial board http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/opinion/editorialboard.html
Chalkbeat pushes either left or right based on http://www.chalkbeat.org/about/supporters
And Dissent is Dissent.
*nods*
Yes, 100 percent for it. I wish that there were more Jewish schools and Islamic schools and other schools in Milwaukee instead of the handful that there are.
I get that it's philosophical, but I really think that I have the practical take on the issue based on what I've written here.
Again, the point is not that EVERY private school has to be good. As with any school, program design can determine who is allowed to come in or stay in.
That's why New Orleans screwed up. I wish that I intimately knew every school there, but from those who do, the good ones mostly stayed out and the bad ones mostly came in (for the cash).
UberTag
Member
The fact that partisanship ISN'T put aside even in instances like this where even the most egregious expectations of competency aren't met highlights a glaring flaw in your political process and what a farce this entire process is. Like if I was Republican, I'd at least want competent Republicans I could respect in these roles. Not folks who donated to get Trump into office. Why not get a competent stooge to force through distasteful policy instead of an idiot who bought their way in?
My only takeaway from this is that the Democrats are outnumbered and the Republicans are completely spineless.
Mechanized
Member
To make such a mistake, she clearly isn't ready for the position.
LegendofLex
Member
Grades are useful for more than just academic progress. They're also good for immersing students in social interactions with peers who are part of their same age group. This is hugely important for kids of all ages, from preschool all the way to high school.
Also, measuring growth is hugely important because the predictors of academic proficiency are not equal.
- Parents' academic achievement predicts kids' academic achievement
- Parents' income predicts kids' academic achievement
- What kind of preschool education a child gets influences their academic achievement
When you can't assume that every kid will achieve at the same level, your best metric is to try to help every kid grow as much as they can.
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Probably not the answer you want to hear but Jeff Sessions is probably the closest lol.
Mattis is easily the most qualified and probably the only one who is qualified in any sense.
I don't understand how Republicans can hear answers like "It's up to the state" for implementation of IDEA and think that's okay. She didn't misspeak she said it several times, she just doesn't know fundamental education law.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Holy shit just watched parts of her hearing. That was a roast...this woman is completely and utterly unqualified. Imagine failing that badly in a job interview...
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Except if we failed that badly, they don't hire us. Her on the other hand will probably be confirmed.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Please, this lady has no business running the department of education. The fact that she has never been a classroom teacher or held any administrative position at a school should immediately disqualify her. Not even getting into the fact that she has never needed/wanted to utilize our public education system for herself or her children, talking public schools or federal loans. She openly supports and prefers charter schools but doesn't feel they should be held to the same accountability standards that public schools have to roll with. One of the worst nominees that Trump has put forward, not even getting into the religious aspect.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Bro, gulliani is gonna slay heading the dept. of cyber security - just you wait and see
Yep, but it doesn't matter, because she's qualified in the one way that matters to the Republicans (and maybe a few Democrats): she wants to privatize education.
Her most odious answer was when she was asked (by Kaine, I think) if all federal funding sent to schools/districts should be used to educate students. And she said she doesn't care if the money gets shifted away from those communities as profit, so long as the students reach benchmarks.
Fuck that. First, it means that "good enough" is all we need to shoot for with the education system. Second, it ignores that schools and districts are often among the most important employers in communities. Federal money not only educates students in their communities. It is also essential to the economies of those communities.
A dollar that is shifted away as profit is a dollar that's not being paid to a teacher, admin, secretary, janitor, aide, or other staff member in that community -- meaning that the money will not be spent and recirculated within that community. Instead, it's likely to go to someone rich (who may not have any connection to the community), invested or put in savings, and kept out of the economy altogether.
It was one of the few questions she actually answered honestly, and it was shitty.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
On average, Catholic schools are a good bit worse than public schools.
https://msu.edu/~telder/Cath_Prim_Current.pdf
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2013/study-catholic-schools-not-superior-to-public-schools/
Catholic schools just attract richer kids.
The only charter/private schools that have shown any superiority over public schools are "No Excuses" charter schools and that may just be because they offer more tutoring to their students than public schools do.
https://msu.edu/~telder/Cath_Prim_Current.pdf
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2013/study-catholic-schools-not-superior-to-public-schools/
Catholic schools just attract richer kids.
The only charter/private schools that have shown any superiority over public schools are "No Excuses" charter schools and that may just be because they offer more tutoring to their students than public schools do.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
This woman seems like a moron who has not engaged with the overall facts of the educational system outside of her charter school-advocating bubble.
I have respect for charter schools that manage to succeed, but the idea that charter schools and vouchers are anything like a solution for the education system, in general, is misguided. Setting aside the violation of church and state that can happen when these charter schools are religious (pretty good way to circumvent the work we've done getting religion out of schools, eh, conservatives?), charter schools have less direct accountability, more ability to subtly filter out students that bring them down, and will likely not do as well, on the whole, when they are inundated with the full bulk of the school system and thus forced to deal with many of the same problems that come from having to service the weirdest or least-privileged portions of a society.
I have respect for charter schools that manage to succeed, but the idea that charter schools and vouchers are anything like a solution for the education system, in general, is misguided. Setting aside the violation of church and state that can happen when these charter schools are religious (pretty good way to circumvent the work we've done getting religion out of schools, eh, conservatives?), charter schools have less direct accountability, more ability to subtly filter out students that bring them down, and will likely not do as well, on the whole, when they are inundated with the full bulk of the school system and thus forced to deal with many of the same problems that come from having to service the weirdest or least-privileged portions of a society.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
You can look at districts like New Orleans where it is almost 100% charter and they are still some of the worst scoring schools in the state. Their are really great charters but there are really shitty ones too.
This article is legitimately difficult for me to get through because it's so distopian.
GhaleonQ
Member
Don't jump to conclusions or post stuff that you did not actually read.
http://ciep.hunter.cuny.edu/catholicschools
"Finally, one of the most important things the authors omitted was a subgroup analysis, to determine how the results might have differed for racial/ethnic and income groups. This would have been helpful, because other research (Figlio & Stone, 1997) has shown that even if results indicate no Catholic school advantage for the general population, minority students, particularly from urban areas, still might benefit substantially. This, in fact, is one of the strongest reasons to promote access to Catholic schools: to narrow the racial and socioeconomic achievement gap. Propensity score matching could handily investigate whether Catholic schools really do benefit racial and ethnic minority students from urban areas."
I love that they really worked hard on the research, but this is a dealbreaker for me.
2nd, I would add that they did not correlate at all dollars spent on education. For all of the complaints about public schools, some of which are legitimate, religious schools do more with less and for less, meaning they get level or superior results at a reduced cost, and (seemingly) achieve better life outcomes, maybe due to religious or character instruction.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/public-or-private-school-it-shouldnt-matter
It's Ravitch. I'm not saying don't listen to critics. Dana Goldstein would be a much better one, or a couple of people at Brookings.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's amazing how blatant she is about wanting to turn schools into churches.
Big Green Anus
Member
How many votes does she needs to be accepted? I believe it's 60, so maybe no Democrats will vote for her.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
That one guy... Uhhh... The one with gray hair....
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I read the entire paper two days ago because I'm applying for Michigan State's Ph.D. program right now.
How is linking to a different article than I provided trying to show that I didn't read the paper? What the fuck?
GhaleonQ
Member
Awesome! So, of what use is the paper as a counter if national vouchers would (hypothetically, I doubt this will happen) serve low-income children?
I raised my objections to the paper, quoting 1 person and referencing another who shares them.
I do apologize for saying that you didn't read it, though.
onadesertedisland
Member
And education cannot directly address this issue. However, it can address the issues related to education, which this woman wants to ignore so public education can fail and become privatized. She sees education as an untapped market, not a resource for the nation and the only proven way to alleviate poverty.
I know, but she's right, and it sucks. "If the privatization movement were confined to Republicans, there might be a vigorous political debate about the wisdom of privatizing the nations public schools. But the Obama administration has been just as enthusiastic about privately managed charter schools as the Republicans. In 2009, its own education reform program, Race to the Top, offered a prize of $4.35 billion that states could compete for. In order to be eligible, states had to change their laws to allow or increase the number of charter schools, and they had to agree to close public schools that had persistently low test scores."
Her book, Reign of Error, is great--though no more fun than that article. What's interesting about Ravitch is that she was an Assistant Secretary of Ed. under George H.W. Bush, at the dawn of the charter/voucher movement. She was a huge supporter of them, until they actually were implemented and she saw what a cluster they are.
i_am_ben
running_here_and_there
It's the same in Australia. On the surface catholic schools have better results but if you account for socio-economic factors they actually do worse.
Big Green Anus
Member
Oh crap, you're right. I just did some researchNope, it's by majority which the republicans have now
We're fucked
CraigerGamer
Member
Growth is a key factor is determining the efficacy of a teacher. From this you can determine where said teacher was trained, are their practices replicable, are they Board Certified, what other PD did they take, is this common growth among the school, so maybe the Administrator is a rockstar? Growth allows for finding good teaching practice.
Therefore, data beyond pass/fail is still useful even if you don't think its worth a hill of beans.
Oh crap, you're right. I just did some research
Yeah, all these noms are going to skate right in.
Sadly, these are "hearings" in name only. All of his nominations will sail through confirmation.
Darth Pinche
Member
Nope, it's by majority which the republicans have now
We're fucked
God this is so depressing. And if it comes to a tie, VP Elect Pence decides. We're fucked.
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