RecRoulette
Member
Chuck isn't asking Ernie to do anything for him anymore. He already knows Jimmy won him over like the snake charmer he is.
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Better Call Saul S2 |OT| The Truth Is Just A Point Of View - Mondays 10/9c
- Thread starter TheOddOne
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Chuck isn't asking Ernie to do anything for him anymore. He already knows Jimmy won him over like the snake charmer he is.
CrunchyFrog
Member
It's become abundantly clear over the course of these two seasons that where Breaking Bad had plot first and characters second (though not AT ALL to the detriment of one or the other) where it was characters developing largely based on reactions to plot, Better Call Saul seems much more focused on characters first and plot second. So many of those long takes are to build a genuine relationship between the audience and these characters to give sense and purpose to the events that follow, so much more so than a more bullet-pointed list of plot events that might manipulate us so. Kim's "A Mi Manera" montage is almost excruciatingly long BECAUSE it's supposed to be for the character and we're supposed to pick up on that. We're supposed to feel sorry for all the hard work she puts in with no results and then share in her elation when it finally pays off in front of our eyes as much as hers, and it works because we were there for seemingly every step of the journey. To contrast, I think if the scene we're shorter that the argument we could be having instead was that the Mesa Verde case was a stroke of luck or, even worse, hamfisted into the show by the writers for the sake of plot motion. Chuck's scene in the ER takes us on a journey of anguish along side him. We see his every reaction to what's going on around him, the harsh heat of the light, the cold calculated questioning of the EMT's. It feels real because we see it in real time, and it's a crucial scene in maintaining what little sympathies we have left for Chuck and prevent him from transforming into some one-sided supervillain. This is TV storytelling that feels closer to a novella than the kind of pulp fiction that we're used to seeing in prime time. It's a lot more like HBO's Treme in this regard. But admittedly, it requires the viewer to invest in these characters, and if you aren't willing to do so then this just isn't the show for you.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
The most excrutiating part of this whole fucking season is that Jimmy should have committed Chuck.
Calamari41
41 > 38
It's kind of crazy how much of an effect the framing of a character or situation can have on our reaction to it. Chuck got Mesa Verde back fair and square, actually making good points to them in order to do so. Business is business, and anybody would have made "one last pitch" to a client who is getting ready to move to someone else.
Imagine if Chuck's reaction, instead, had been to plant fake documents in Kim's briefcase, which caused her to screw up a minor detail and thus resulted in Mesa Verde coming back to HHM. We'd hate that motherfucker! Then, imagine in the finale Jimmy heroically tricking Chuck into confessing to this on tape. Same situation, but reversed, and I doubt near as many people would be saying "Oh god, fuck Jimmy!" as are saying "Fuck Chuck!"
Imagine if Chuck's reaction, instead, had been to plant fake documents in Kim's briefcase, which caused her to screw up a minor detail and thus resulted in Mesa Verde coming back to HHM. We'd hate that motherfucker! Then, imagine in the finale Jimmy heroically tricking Chuck into confessing to this on tape. Same situation, but reversed, and I doubt near as many people would be saying "Oh god, fuck Jimmy!" as are saying "Fuck Chuck!"
Grinchy
Banned
Agreed, and it's because Jimmy has won us over despite being a shit head. We're just like all the characters on the show. The writing is so damn good.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Yeah, there was no underhandedness in what Chuck did. You might say he put in extra effort out of "spite" - he could have just given some pointers to Howard, but instead donned his suit and went into the office, the exertion of which actually making him ill - but it was just business.
I don't get the impression he did it because wanted to screw over Kim, I actually feel like he genuinely likes Kim and thinks she's talented (their scene together when she was working night shifts at the docketing department). Which is funny because her mailroom-to-lawer story isn't that dissimilar to Jimmy's.
Hah, I love that analysis. Just like Rebecca, we were told beforehand that Jimmy McGill was unlikable and a bit obnoxious (through Saul Goodman's antics - note, this very reason was why a lot of people doubted that this show would even work). But again just like her, he won us over in such a short time (season 1) that Chuck feels the consequences. That's great.
I don't agree with this at all. None of the plot of BB would have happened were it not for the great character development.
RecRoulette
Member
Chuck was willing to let the case go until Howard (intentionally or not) implied that Kim and Jimmy became law partners. Then he went into full "Fuck Jimmy" mode, even leaving the house without his suit and letting HHM run normally. He did that out of pure spite for Jimmy.
Chuck is so damn good.
Cornballer
Member
- Warming Glow: What You May Have Missed In The Better Call Saul Season Finale
Note that this is them parsing the Insider Podcast, which is always worth a listen if you have the time.
Note that this is them parsing the Insider Podcast, which is always worth a listen if you have the time.
CharminUltra
Member
:O I hadn't thought about it that way. You're right.
Question:
Doesn't Jimmy still have protection? All he has to say is that he truly did make it all up to get his brother back to work. Chuck still doesn't have hard evidence since Jimmy can still fall back on this excuse, right?
But then again it leaves the clerk he bribed who could ruin him.
Doesn't Jimmy still have protection? All he has to say is that he truly did make it all up to get his brother back to work. Chuck still doesn't have hard evidence since Jimmy can still fall back on this excuse, right?
But then again it leaves the clerk he bribed who could ruin him.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Yeah, Chuck has his issues and is a dick, for sure.
But everything he did after Jimmy fucked him, feloniously, was justified. "Getting the bad guy on tape" is one of the common "hero wins the day" tropes at the end of a drama like this.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
...I just realized.
Chuck's going to show this to Mesa Verde. Not the police.
Chuck's going to show this to Mesa Verde. Not the police.
People keep bringing this up, but in watching and rewatching that scene like 5 times, I see no indication of this. Even if it's true, the speed of the conversation doesn't even allow us to see that he came to that conclusion before Chuck was mentioned.
Here's how it went down, line by line (Not using direct quotes, because it will take too long to type out, but paraphrases:
Chuck hears a noise, asks if it's Ernie.
Howard says it's him. Chuck asks if he saw him, because he expected documents from him an hour ago and he has a round of filing coming up. This is significant because he could be working the mesa verde case that very instant.
Howard tells Chuck that it's likely they'll lose Mesa Verde
"Losing them?! We Just got them! Why? Where are they going?" I'm sure there will be disagreement over level of enthusiasm, but Chuck's emotional state here is shock, surprise, confusion, and interest.
Howard tells him they're going with Kim and that she left.
"Kim left?" He simply looks baffled at this point. "Oh, Howard..." in a disappointed voice. I'm not sure what this means exactly, if he's disappointed in Kim or Howard. "Well...where is she going? Is it Swaikart? Or Reeves and green get her?" Still is maintaining interest. At this point, Chuck is just thinking that Kim is taking Mesa Verde to another firm. To give credit to Chuck's detractors, he looks like he's resigned to this for the moment. But that could be because he sees little chance of him retaking Mesa Verde. He has a lot he can offer over solo practioners, but larger firms can generally do what he does with his team.
Then Howard tells him that she's going into private practice.
Chuck laughs at this. "What? Well, that's completely..." To him, this is pure insanity, and it is a poor move from his limited perspective, given HHM have much to offer her. Again, this shows the disconnect, because Chuck isn't personal with kim, even if he is benevolent. "How is she going out on her own? Why is she going out on her own?" To him, this is neither practical nor smart.
Keep in mind that at no point here does Chuck show anything resembling disinterest. He's not focusing on Mesa Verde, maybe, but he's reeling from surprise after surprise, because this is catching him completely blind sided.
Now, Howard tells him she's pulling her resources with jimmy.
"Kim and my brother. Partners at law" Howard doesn't correct him, and while I think people overplay this as a means of manipulation, he's definitely letting Chuck know Jimmy is in there some where. "The man is Svengali" Svengali is...well, look up his wikipedia page. Again, he's not wrong, Kim is going out on her own because of Jimmy talking her into it, but he's putting it in the worst light possible.
Howard now moves the conversation back to Mesa Verde. Chuck seems to not be paying attention, he was thinking to himself for a minute there, which howard gets his attention again. Howard asks for help, at which point Chuck springs to action.
So yeah, no one denies the likelihood that Chuck was encouraged by the prospect of taking away a client from Jimmy. But like many scenes, this has multilayered motivation. Is spite a part of it? Sure. But he also believes he has a duty to watch out for clients, which he immediately knows that Jimmy will not be able to handle right. He's also showing concern for Kim (Patronizingly so, but still). And he''s just being an HHM lawyer. It can't be argued he was at any point disinterested. He was shocked, listening, and demanded answers as to what the hell was going on.
How much of it was spite, how much was genuiene concern for clients, and how much was just being a typical lawyer is debatable, but I think it's safe to say that chuck didn't go from zero to 100 at the mention of Jimmy's name. More like 80 to 100.
He'd put it on youtube if he could. He'll show it to everyone who will listen.
CharminUltra
Member
The reason I liked the twist at the end is because (at least IMO) it isn't really the coup Chuck thinks it'll be.
I guess it could inconvenience Jimmy a little, but it probably won't get him disbarred. On the other hand, it could also make Chuck look even more unstable to others than he already does (Jimmy can definitely claim he just said it to make his brother feel better.)
If i was Mesa Verde, and Chuck were to show me that, i wouldn't want to have either of the parties involved handle my case.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I actually don't think that's it's main use for Chuck. Sure he may send them a copy to clear his name in their eyes. But maybe they'll say hey your meddling brother is your problem, we're sticking with Kim now.
I just realized Jimmy could also say that Chuck, in fact, bribed him (the clerk) to go along with his story and Jimmy could just pass it all off on his unstable nature.
Can definitely see the court blaming this all on Chuck for his instability, especially considering the lack of evidence to support his accusations. All Jimmy has to do is point to his mental condition and the fact that he's been in and out of the hospital, alongside smacking his head in the wake of his ongoing tirade. He's clearly got the resources/deep pockets for an expensive bribe.
He didn't do it to screw over Kim Hamlin deceived him a little,he made it seem like Jimmy and Kim were practicing together and they got Mesa Verde.
There's your fine line between morality right and wrong that this show likes to tread. Who's the hero and who's the villain?
What it does is set up even more lawyer jousting and backstabbing. Now they both have sneaky ways to continue to pursue their personal goals.
The show producers said what Chuck did was legal in NM. It doesn't sound like something they will use against Chuck.
What's great about the finale is there are so many outcomes to that recording; it all boils down to what Chuck does with the info. He could use it to squeeze the copy guy, Ernie, gathering enough evidence to really fuck Jimmy.. it all could have consequences for Jimmy, Kim, Ernie and Chuck himself really. Or it might be kept between Jimmy and Chuck; as many as theorized simply for leverage against Jimmy.
Maybe Jimmy will get Mike or some other shady element involved in the whole thing to to get the tape back.
Who knows?
This is going to be a long year.
It think it was said earlier in the thread that it's not. And really the fact that Chuck did it should be enough evidence that it's not because he would certainly know.
Hey, here's Matt Zoller Seitz for Vulture on why "Chuck McGill Is Better Call Sauls Version of Skyler White."
Cornballer
Member
Yeah, I was putting together some pull quotes out of that, too:
- Matt Zoller Seitz on Chuck, pacing, and BCS Season 2 for NY Mag
- Matt Zoller Seitz on Chuck, pacing, and BCS Season 2 for NY Mag
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Same! Also, Kim Wexler is the better female protagonist than Skyler.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Errrrr...........none? The purpose of TV is not establish realistic characters but the show that came close was The Wire between seasons 1-4. Season 5, regrettably went into the realm of BB unbelievability.
Well, you have strange standards for TV then. For me, no matter how fantastic a story gets, in any medium, the almost universal rule for determining quality is how much I can believe the characters to actually exist as real people.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Unrealistic characters does NOT equal:
-- "strange standards for TV"
-- bad writing
-- shit show
-- not quality
Get off your high horse and stop imposing your opinion on others like it's gospel.
In my creative writing classes, much of our discussion was centered around how to make a narrative feel authentic, and I have anecdotally noticed that many complaints in most discussions of stories in general, in any medium, can be boiled down to "I don't believe in this character/situation/world.
I do find it strange that you askew that. That isn't a criticism, just an observation and I said nothing hostile to you. I didn't even imply the 3 dashes you listed that wasn't my direct quote and I certainly never said you were wrong for having different standards. So I think my horses height is perfectly fine. But I can understand how you might think I'm looking down on you. Your head is up your ass, so your perspectives skewed. Take it out, and you'll see things differently.
Edit: also, I draw a distinction between believable and realistic. They often conflate, but aren't the same.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Jimmy had already changed to Saul Goodman after Marco's death and he inherited his pinky ring. This is more evident when he told Kim he's going to be "colourful" when it comes to his approach in his solo firm.
Why don't YOU get off your high horse and post in a thread of another show that you like?
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Oh my perspectives are skewed because I don't agree with you? The horror, the horror!
Let me make something perfectly clear to you: You are not an authority on anything.
My sister is a scriptwriter for a Hollywood film & TV company. I am just as qualified as anybody else in this thread to hold an opinion.
Really? You're telling me not to post in this thread? Is that what you're saying?
blame space
Banned
AM I UNDER ARREST
Can you get your sister to register on gaf then? Since she's a screen writer, I'm assuming that means she knows how to read, so she knows what words actually mean. Basic reading comprehension would go a long way in having a decent conversation that you are evidently incapable of providing.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Yeah, that's what I need to learn. I hold a 3 college degrees and I am halfway through a PhD.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
No, I an suggesting that you might just be better off in a place where you won't stuck out like a sore thumb to the others. Ever consider a vacation in Belize?
All without the ability to comprehend basic written English language. Very impressive.
Also, i have to admit, I never had the Internet intellectual tough guy act pulled on me. What next, a demand for me to meet you somewhere irl for a debate?
I'm stopping here though. Anything more, and bans are gonna start flying.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Is it usually like that in this thread?
I personally don't agree with the lack of believability arguments but if that's what people feel it's what they feel; there's no reason to have angry arguments about it. Although to be honest the current back and forth has me lost lol.
I wanted Mike to pull off the perfect heist but I didn't think the leaving of the driver on the side of the road thing was some unbelievable fuck up; he assumed 911 would get called. Stepping out of your car to help someone tied up on the side of the road without calling the cops first is a terrible idea; that good Samaritan made a mistake that is believable though.. and it's believable to me that Mike would have made the mistake of assuming.
Jimmy falling for Chuck's trap was believable to me as well; they went out of their way to show how guilty Jimmy felt about the entire situation. He was compromised; he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Guilt makes people blind to things.
I'd urge people who don't find these actions believable to try to re-think their opinion because if they can do so they'll find the show more enjoyable like those of us geeking out on this plot are. Who wouldn't want to enjoy themselves?
I wanted Mike to pull off the perfect heist but I didn't think the leaving of the driver on the side of the road thing was some unbelievable fuck up; he assumed 911 would get called. Stepping out of your car to help someone tied up on the side of the road without calling the cops first is a terrible idea; that good Samaritan made a mistake that is believable though.. and it's believable to me that Mike would have made the mistake of assuming.
Jimmy falling for Chuck's trap was believable to me as well; they went out of their way to show how guilty Jimmy felt about the entire situation. He was compromised; he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Guilt makes people blind to things.
I'd urge people who don't find these actions believable to try to re-think their opinion because if they can do so they'll find the show more enjoyable like those of us geeking out on this plot are. Who wouldn't want to enjoy themselves?
it was a good last episode and overall a great season but I was expecting this finale to reach some sort of climax (I guess I should blame my own expectations) and it never did, not even close.
the ending was way too predictable.
people just guessed who that was and they were right. I mean, they teased it and it'd make sense if that someone was watching Hector all this time. my guess is that Gus (or whoever else working under him) noticed Mike stalking them, and ended up following both, which will ultimately lead to Mike working for Gus.
the ending was way too predictable.
yea Nacho leaving the note seems about right he clearly is capable of teleportation,,
people just guessed who that was and they were right. I mean, they teased it and it'd make sense if that someone was watching Hector all this time. my guess is that Gus (or whoever else working under him) noticed Mike stalking them, and ended up following both, which will ultimately lead to Mike working for Gus.
and again, you keep pretending that those characters making any form of mistake translates into inconsistent / bad writing whereas it's the complete opposite, especially when these mistakes aren't really a big deal. but I am and you are repeating the same things so this discussion is getting pointless, believe whatever you want.
Consumer
Member
You're assuming that there's no just alternative for Chuck other than submitting him to the law; Chuck could easily get Jimmy to admit his wrongdoing to Le Merde(?), getting them to return to HHM. Generally speaking, there's nothing wrong with pursuing legal action, but it goes against Chuck's character and his personality from past episodes. Despite subtly harbouring resentment for Jimmy (not hiring him at HHM), he's always bailed him out of trouble and given him second chances.
In your car crash analogy, the damage is irreversible with financial implications; in Chuck's case, a simple confession to the right people (not the law) would reverse the damage to his reputation and restore Le Merde as a client. I called him a spiteful cunt with the assumption that he'll use it to get Jimmy in legal trouble, or to get Kim to leave him (again, based on his last line confirming that Jimmy committed a felony). Obviously we won't know until next season, but over the course of season 2 it seems as though Chuck's been becoming increasingly unhinged, and with his recent head injury (courtesy of Jimmy), I figure it won't be long until Chuck just breaks, stoops down to Jimmy's level and gets revenge using underhanded tactics (like using the recorder).
EDIT: Banned? Damn, wrote this for nothing lol.
For the record, being a well-written character and a spiteful cunt aren't mutually exclusive. I do like Chuck as a character, but would hate him as a brother. To elaborate on why Chuck's being spiteful and why I think he's going to make things personal now, just look at his jealousy towards Jimmy. He's always been jealous of his charisma & showmanship. It's been eating away at him since his mother said Jimmy's name in her deathbed, and when Jimmy was making Chuck's wife laugh (something he evidently can't do), and hell, it's probably been an issue since they were kids in school. Both brothers are jealous of each other in different respects, but Jimmy's jealousy is harmlessly looking up to his brother, while Chuck's jealousy takes the form of bitter resentment & spite.
Well I read your entire reply and mostly agree so it's not for nothing.
Damn, that last page was a graveyard.
It's not any form of a mistake. It's a huge one that goes against Mike's characterization as a cool, collected and experienced. I'm struggling to think how even a rookie would leave his captive in plain sight on the road if he wants to draw as little of attention possible. Especially so if the intent of the writers was to show the innocent's death spurring Mike to take down Hector. If that was such a big concern then Mike just didn't give enough thought to that part of his plan when we've known him to be the opposite of that.
If Mike's plan in the finale wasn't affected by that civilian's death then his decision is more egregious because he's purposefully stoking the fire and shaking the bee's nest. Killing Hector would have gotten him and his precious grand-daughter in deep shit. Mike out to know better than insist on taking on the Cartel because they threatened his family. The coast was already clear and he was no longer a concern for the Cartel.
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On the subject of the slow pace and need of editing, the best example this season when Hector meets Mike to convince him to own-up for the gun. It took the entire next episode for Mike to begrudgingly agree because both for some reason decided to play dumb. Hector should have said to Mike at the restaurant: 'Look, let's cut to the chase. You're going to say no. I'm going to say i'll kill your grand-daughter and surprisingly you're going to do it. Shocking, isn't it?'. It's ridiculous how this straight-forward affair was dragged for another episode.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Thank you, mods. Unbearable reading this otherwise awesome thread since Monday.
RecRoulette
Member
He left his captive in plain sight because he thought someone would see it and just call the cops instead of getting involved, eventually leading the cops towards Hector's operation.
Mike is experienced with a lot of skills but he leaves too many things to chance, and really, you could argue that his character always did that, even through breaking bad.
Seems like this thread could use a laugh or two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBo0iEjewU
"You got to be shittin' us."
"You got to be shittin' us."
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