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[shysaursoft]

wtfisthisshit.jpg

"In every Quake, you just run around and shoot people." I was referencing how people can reduce anything to sounding like there's no innovation, if there is more than one game in a series and the series never jumps genres completely.

 

[sixteen-bit]

First COD bomba?

I wouldn't get my hopes up

 

[ctrayne]

.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

You must be joking.

IW were the only development team to innovate COD. They were the ones who completely revolutionized the FPS genre when they introduced perks and killstreaks in COD4. World at War, Treyarch's first effort after the success of COD4, was literally COD4 in WWII. No innovation, no new ideas, just a lazy follow-up that aped the innovation of COD4.

IW's next game, MW2, further moved the series forward. Among many other things, the introduction of pro perks and customizable killstreaks differentiated MW2 from COD4. Although they shared similarities, they were entirely different beasts. As usual, Treyarch's next game (Black Ops) basically took all the ideas from MW2 and introduced nothing new.

I don't care about MW3 since it wasn't developed by the real Infinity Ward, so I'll just stop here. Treyarch are the masters of piggy-backing off of others' success and ideas.

Perks and unlocks were introduced in the United Offensive expansion, made by Gray Matter, who was merged with Treyarch years ago. IW did introduce kill streaks to the franchise but that was hardly a "revolution", they already existed. What made CoD4 so great was the complete package. Every single mode and every single map was a hit. None of these elements were created by IW but they merged them all together into an incredible package.

What I like about Treyarch is they listen to the community and don't seem to be as full of themselves as IW was. And Treyarch made plenty of changes with W@W. Zombies, squads in MP, incredible gore, and no streaks/explosives during the first 20 seconds or whatever of each round. All those videos of people wiping out entire teams in SnD in CoD4 with air strikes or annihilating teams with infinite noob tubes in Domination in MW2 getting nukes in under 30 seconds would never happen in a Treyarch game.

Black Ops introduced CoD cash and an entirely new way of unlocking things, plus theater, customizable icons and banners, wager matches, combat training, as well as unlocking more powerful perks and customizable kill streaks that weren't ridiculously overpowered/broken as they were in MW2. They basically took what IW did and actually made it work. Which again, wouldn't be necessary if IW weren't so stubborn about their terrible game design.

IW was good for one game. And it was an incredible, one of the all time greats type of game. But they have been shit since. Even if you wanna call Treyarch a team that piggybacks, at least they are consistently good. Unless you only own a PS3. Blops ran like ass on PS3 for me.

 

[GrizzNKev]

"In every Quake, you just run around and shoot people." I was referencing how people can reduce anything to sounding like there's no innovation, if there is more than one game in a series and the series never jumps genres completely.

Not a single person said anything like that.

 

[zlatko]

Mmmm no thanks. I'll still follow up to see where it goes and such, but they need dedicated servers on consoles for me to blink an eye this time.

Halo 4 for me for now.

 

[shysaursoft]

I have a problem with reusing the same assets over and over while minimal new content is actually created.

Battlefield? Really? Look at BFBC2, then look at BF3. Gameplay reused? Sure, it keeps the concept of Battlefield what it always was. But anything else? Come on, man. I have trouble telling the difference between MW2 and MW3 in screenshots without a HUD or in 3rd person, and you're seriously pushing it if you think BF or Quake suffer from the same problem.

I can't speak for MW2 to MW3, since I didn't play MW2. So, I'll have to take your word on it, in which case, I can agree. Asset reuse is pretty silly.

However, since MW2 and MW3 don't have the exact same campaign taking place in the exact same locations, I can't really see how one is just a copy of the other. Conceptually, perhaps. Run here, shoot guys, ride that turret, etc.

Keeping a consistent look across several games doesn't seem like a bad thing, unless you make it into one.

BFBC2 and BF3 - I could make a joke about their box covers, but that's more EA's fault. I get what you're saying, but again, you're coming from a hostile critic's standpoint. Gameplay wise, Blops and MW3 feel totally different, they're completely different games to me. They're different devs, so that makes sense.

Beyond that, I got no strong opinions, since I didn't play WaW or MW2.

Which leads me again to, it seems the people who oversaturated themselves with the series, are the ones suffering from fatigue of it. Time to play something else, I guess?

Not a single person said anything like that.

I was paraphrasing. Many people in this thread have eluded to every CoD just being a new skin on an older CoD. Which just isn't true. I have no allegiance to any particular franchise, but I do wonder about how vehemently some people will denounce one. It just comes off as borderline pathological.

 

[Neuromancer]

First COD bomba?

No.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I can't speak for MW2 to MW3, since I didn't play MW2. So, I'll have to take your word on it, in which case, I can agree. Asset reuse is pretty silly.

However, since MW2 and MW3 don't have the exact same campaign taking place in the exact same locations, I can't really see how one is just a copy of the other. Conceptually, perhaps. Run here, shoot guys, ride that turret, etc.

Keeping a consistent look across several games doesn't seem like a bad thing, unless you make it into one.

BFBC2 and BF3 - I could make a joke about their box covers, but that's more EA's fault. I get what you're saying, but again, you're coming from a hostile critic's standpoint. Gameplay wise, Blops and MW3 feel totally different, they're completely different games to me. They're different devs, so that makes sense.

Beyond that, I got no strong opinions, since I didn't play WaW or MW2.

Which leads me again to, it seems the people who oversaturated themselves with the series, are the ones suffering from fatigue of it. Time to play something else, I guess?

So you have no idea the level of overuse and repetition in this series because you haven't played what other people have, and then you make up incredibly flawed comparisons to other series that haven't done nearly the same thing (ffs Quake switched universe and setting genre for the first one, and the third one was multi only)

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I wouldn't get my hopes up

I actually don't fully hate COD but this just seems like too big a jump imo.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

Hmm. Gonna take a slight step back in my enthusiasm, knowing that BlOps2 takes place in the near future. Seems like a ticket for ridiculous killstreaks and cheap robot kills.
Still, I have way more faith that 3arc will deliver a more solid and entertaining product than the new IW can.

IW moved the series forward in a good but conventional manner. Treyarch experiments with new and bold ideas. Treyarch really does bring exciting new mechanics to the game. Their execution may not be as good as the old IW, but to call them creatively bankrupt is wrong.

Absolutely.
IW butchered CoD4 with MW2 - the game had gameplay-breaking glitches, and the perks & weapons were unbalanced. Stacking killstreaks, need I say more?

Black Ops restored order and gun balance, nerfed the stupid quick-scoping glitch, added the theater mode, interesting Vietnam campaign, etc etc.

Also agree that MW3 is a trainwreck. So many features and cool things that Treyarch implemented were removed or broken. Theater mode has never worked right, the death perk Last Stand lets you use your main weapon instead of a pistol, the respawns are infuriating, the lag compensation is rage-inducing, and so on. I mean, there's not even an option to lower/turn off the in-game lobby music, for crying out loud.
Best single thing about MW3 is the Trophy System.

 

[thetrin]

Yeah, I fail to see how this is in any way a cold war. Things are exploding and there are drones everywhere.

 

[hamchan]

I actually don't fully hate COD but this just seems like too big a jump imo.

Seems like a small jump to me as it's still the 21st century. Just testing the waters for a distant future game maybe.

 

[shysaursoft]

So you have no idea the level of overuse and repetition in this series because you haven't played what other people have, and then you make up incredibly flawed comparisons to other series that haven't done nearly the same thing (ffs Quake switched universe and setting genre for the first one, and the third one was multi only)

My analogy was super-flawed, you're right. I was making the point that if someone *wanted* to play reductionist with Quake, they could. Because it's easy, especially the more irrational you get.

I've seen a lot of media of MW2, and dipped into the MP a little, but that's it. If the overuse and repetition in the series really is as bad as you say, then I guess I understand your frustration with it. You won't be buying Blops 2 or MW4 or whatever. Case made.

Just as long as, because I'm interested in Blops 2, you don't go and say "you're part of the problem, you sheeple". Because that'd be silly. Why should how you feel about a game, have any bearing on what I think about it? And that goes both ways. I'm not expecting to argue the case for any CoD games. I'm not that into the franchise.

But since there isn't a new Quake, I lack a decent fun MP experience (beyond Tribes), and MW3 fills that. When Blops2 comes out, my friends are switching to that, so I'm hoping it'll be good.

 

[Makoto]

You must be joking.

IW were the only development team to innovate COD. They were the ones who completely revolutionized the FPS genre when they introduced perks and killstreaks in COD4. World at War, Treyarch's first effort after the success of COD4, was literally COD4 in WWII. No innovation, no new ideas, just a lazy follow-up that aped the innovation of COD4.

IW's next game, MW2, further moved the series forward. Among many other things, the introduction of pro perks and customizable killstreaks differentiated MW2 from COD4. Although they shared similarities, they were entirely different beasts. As usual, Treyarch's next game (Black Ops) basically took all the ideas from MW2 and introduced nothing new.

I don't care about MW3 since it wasn't developed by the real Infinity Ward, so I'll just stop here. Treyarch are the masters of piggy-backing off of others' success and ideas.

Here we go.

It's that time of the fiscal cycle where people hop on the IW-bandwagon. Where people forget the market system in Black Ops and how it brought some semblance of fun to the persistent ranking and unlock garbage that got tiresome after MW2. Then there's United Offensive which-

Perks and unlocks were introduced in the United Offensive expansion, made by Gray Matter, who was merged with Treyarch years ago. IW did introduce kill streaks to the franchise but that was hardly a "revolution", they already existed. What made CoD4 so great was the complete package. Every single mode and every single map was a hit. None of these elements were created by IW but they merged them all together into an incredible package.

Yes and a lot of Call of Duty "firsts" were in United Offensive. Sprinting, the Domination gamemode, ranking (which will always be superior to anything IW has ever accomplished) were done first in UO. IW pulled their heads out of their asses after CoD2 and built on top of the foundation laid by UO.

People really need to stop acting like IW just woke up one day as a studio and just invented every feature in CoD4 as if no one has done it before. The sole praise that IW deserves for CoD4 is the polish that they gave to the ideas that existed prior to them.

 

[GrizzNKev]

I can't speak for MW2 to MW3, since I didn't play MW2. So, I'll have to take your word on it, in which case, I can agree. Asset reuse is pretty silly.

However, since MW2 and MW3 don't have the exact same campaign taking place in the exact same locations, I can't really see how one is just a copy of the other. Conceptually, perhaps. Run here, shoot guys, ride that turret, etc.

Keeping a consistent look across several games doesn't seem like a bad thing, unless you make it into one.

BFBC2 and BF3 - I could make a joke about their box covers, but that's more EA's fault. I get what you're saying, but again, you're coming from a hostile critic's standpoint. Gameplay wise, Blops and MW3 feel totally different, they're completely different games to me. They're different devs, so that makes sense.

Beyond that, I got no strong opinions, since I didn't play WaW or MW2.

Which leads me again to, it seems the people who oversaturated themselves with the series, are the ones suffering from fatigue of it. Time to play something else, I guess?

I was paraphrasing. Many people in this thread have eluded to every CoD just being a new skin on an older CoD. Which just isn't true. I have no allegiance to any particular franchise, but I do wonder about how vehemently some people will denounce one. It just comes off as borderline pathological.

The word "feel" here is very important. The way the physics work, the engine the game runs on. How does the player move and interact with their environment? How heavy does the player feel? How heavy do the guns feel? Does the recoil punch? Is there momentum in a sprint?

This is where the CoD games fail to change anything. Halo doesn't feel the same as Halo 2. Same to Halo 3 and Reach. Crysis 2 didn't feel like Crysis 1. BF2 didn't feel like Bad Company, and neither feel like BF3. Portal 1 and 2 don't feel the same either. They retain the core concepts of the gameplay - running, shooting, jumping, whatever it is, but at the foundation, the technology changes and advances to give the player a better connection to the world they're in. It doesn't always work, not everyone always likes those changes. But usually, the game will still sell just as well or better. CoD hasn't taken these steps yet, and likely won't until next gen.

 

[morningbus]

Pushing the boundaries of what fans have come to expect from the record-setting entertainment franchise, Call of Duty®: Black Ops 2 propels players into a near future, 21st Century Cold War, where technology and weapons have converged to
create a new generation of warfare. Pre-order today.

"lol not a cold war."

Really people?

"Technology and weapons have converged to create a new generation of warfare," could mean that all these skirmishes are taking place in virtual simulations between nations. It's unknown to the public, thus it is Black Ops. It's only a virtual war, between stalemated rivals, thus its a Cold War.

Or maybe it's none of those things. I dunno, we have jack shit to go on.

 

[shysaursoft]

This is where the CoD games fail to change anything. Halo doesn't feel the same as Halo 2. Same to Halo 3 and Reach.

It's worth noting, that each time the Halo games changed how they felt in terms of the physics, the shit-storm from the "fans" never ended.

And there are STILL shit-storms regarding CoD from fans who say each new game feels worse than the previous, that they keep changing the physics, etc.

So I don't know what to think.

Do they keep changing it, as some fans claim? Or do they not, as you claim. And if so, what's the right path? Not changing, and having people be happy with the consistency, or changing, and having people up in arms because now your jump arc is different.

Tricky. I don't see WHY CoD has to take any steps beyond what the devs think they should. It'll get sorted out in the court of money-from-wallets-paying-for-opinions anyway. If the devs fuck up (ME3 ending, did the devs fuck up?), they'll change something later, or they'll go under.

Hard to play armchair game designer and keep a moral highground, because really, we're not actually designing anything.

But between you and me, MW3 "feels" way better than Black Ops, in the MP anyway. But looking through the MP options in Black Ops, I do like the features in there, and would have liked to see them in MW3.

 

[GrizzNKev]

It's worth nothing, that each time the Halo games changed how they felt in terms of the physics, the shit-storm from the "fans" never ended.

And there are STILL shit-storms regarding CoD from fans who say each new game feels worse than the previous, that they keep changing the physics, etc.

So I don't know what to think.

And yet, each subsequent title still sold more than the previous. This isn't a minor tweak in run speed or jump height (which are the only difference you can actually observe in a CoD game after 4) I'm talking about, but a complete reworking of the grounding of a player in their environment. Physics, animation, everything. In reality the best way to facilitate that is an engine change or rewrite. For all we know it could be for the better. But when is there time to do that, or time to improve it at all, when you're so busy reskinning the last game?

 

[SilverBullet]

Looking at those pictures seems more like it's a psVita game.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

So they did go with BO 2, COD is more creatively bankrupt than I thought.

 

[shysaursoft]

And yet, each subsequent title still sold more than the previous. This isn't a minor tweak in run speed or jump height I'm talking about, but a complete reworking of the grounding of a player in their environment. In reality the best way to facilitate that is an engine change or rewrite. For all we know it could be for the better. But when is there time to do that, or time to improve it at all, when you're so busy reskinning the last game?

True. Though I'm wary of using sales as a metric for anything, since some of the best games of the last decade, sold poorly.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see Black Ops II, because with the change in timeframe and military tech, you can't just reskin, can you? You have to create every gun from scratch, and since the tech is more modern, the feel of their recoil will have to be done from scratch.

Perhaps Black Ops II will reinvigorate the franchise a bit, just by it's nature. I'm going to be very curious to see the general reaction to it when it's out. Black Ops 2 has had at least a two year development cycle, so it's not overly rushed. And the team has experience, and a knowledge base, with the genre and engine, so technically they can do in two years what a fresh team with new tech would need three of four to do.

I'm happy it's taking a quasi-future tech angle. It looks to be at least 10 years into the future, so the Darpa projects like Big Dog and Petman are military-ready, and Parrot AR Drones have guns on them. I dig that kind of stuff.

 

[Yen]

I liked the Cold War aspect of BO, and enjoyed the SP despite its faults (THE NUMBERS MASON. TELL US ABOUT THE NUMBERS). To be fair, I love Cold War/Vietnam War fiction.
Meh, about the MW/FW aspect of this one.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Spoiler

All in good fun! I'll be buying both Halo 4 and Blops2

 

[GrizzNKev]

True. Well, in that case, it'll be interesting to see Black Ops II, because with the change in timeframe and military tech, you can't just reskin, can you? You have to create every gun from scratch, and since the tech is more modern, the feel of their recoil will have to be done from scratch.

Perhaps Black Ops II will reinvigorate the franchise a bit, just by it's nature. I'm going to be very curious to see the general reaction to it when it's out. Black Ops 2 has had at least a two year development cycle, so it's not overly rushed.

Sure, they'd have to model new weapons, vehicles and characters, but they're not going to write a whole new system for calculating recoil or create a new animation pipeline that makes reloading feel more like it's happening and less like a robot waving cardboard around. Every new entity they build is going to inherit the same set of properties as the entities in the game before because they don't have the time to rebuild those systems. It's going to take more than a setting change to make that happen. My issue is purely technological and likely has more to do with the fact that the hardware hasn't changed.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Excited to see how superior COD maker treyarch has improved on this one. I hope they've done lots to the zombie mode. Would love a zombie campaign. It would > RE6.

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

First COD bomba?

I really, really doubt that. While I do feel the series has stagnated since CoD4 (which was an awesome game, Im just tired of playing revisions of it) there is no doubt it is a fun game. Now, don't get me wrong, I think people are beginning to get same old CoD fatigue, and I would love if this game was a radical departure from the CoD4 formula, but time will tell. I really don't think a true 'CoD5' will hit until next gen.

I will say, I am intrigued and can't wait for the trailer.. The newish setting has me a little more hopeful for this game, it may be enough to hook me into CoD again.

Also, courtesy of CyReN via Halogaf thread comes two amazing photoshops:

The earlier post of the ODSTs made this too perfect of an opportunity, haha.

Spoiler

and no, I am not implying CoD is trying to ripoff Halo, or anything of the sort.

*Damn! Beaten by Deadly Cyclone!

 

[shysaursoft]

My issue is purely technological and likely has more to do with the fact that the hardware hasn't changed.

Can't argue with that. That's not quite the dev team's fault, is it.

 

[Neuromancer]

Excited to see how superior COD maker treyarch has improved on this one. I hope they've done lots to the zombie mode. Would love a zombie campaign. It would > RE6.

Yeah I'm tired of the current zombie mode. They should either make whole new levels where you're going from a to b with a real objective, or flood the MP maps with zombies.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Can't argue with that. That's not quite the dev team's fault, is it.

Well stagnant hardware is more of an excuse than a reason. It makes improving engines harder, but clearly it isn't impossible. It just takes time. Look at Halo 3 and Halo 4, or BFBC1 and BF3, then look at MW1 and MW3. Dev cycle means almost everything here.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Yeah I'm tired of the current zombie mode. They should either make whole new levels where you're going from a to b with a real objective, or flood the MP maps with zombies.

maybe there will be...future zombies?

 

[Live Free or Die]

Day 1 for me.

 

[Neuromancer]

maybe there will be...future zombies?

Cyborg zombies, sign me up

 

[Sojgat]

When is the trailer meant to be up?

 

[Schwabe]

When is the trailer meant to be up?

the timer on callofduty.com is set for 7pm, but it's related to your system clock. i assume its 7pm Eastern, so still some time till then... although for me the timer has 4min left xD

 

[BeEatNU]

You must be joking.

IW were the only development team to innovate COD. They were the ones who completely revolutionized the FPS genre when they introduced perks and killstreaks in COD4. World at War, Treyarch's first effort after the success of COD4, was literally COD4 in WWII. No innovation, no new ideas, just a lazy follow-up that aped the innovation of COD4.

IW's next game, MW2, further moved the series forward. Among many other things, the introduction of pro perks and customizable killstreaks differentiated MW2 from COD4. Although they shared similarities, they were entirely different beasts. As usual, Treyarch's next game (Black Ops) basically took all the ideas from MW2 and introduced nothing new.

I don't care about MW3 since it wasn't developed by the real Infinity Ward, so I'll just stop here. Treyarch are the masters of piggy-backing off of others' success and ideas.

so much jugging in this post

 

[Keasar]

Command & Conquer: Tiberium?

 

[params7]

Meh I'm converted to Battlefield gameplay now, just can't get into the arcady nature of CoD anymore. Hopefully BLOPS2 will be good and I'll like CoD again.

 

[Interficium]

I'll be watching this one with a lot of interest from a business perspective. The COD-wave seems to have already crested this year when MW3 failed to outperform Black Ops despite having a pretty significant advantage in debut sales.

Treyarch is really going to have to swing for the fences (within the unfortunate confines of the COD formula) with this one, because Activision will probably pitch a shit fit if they can't convince casuals to come back to COD, thus doing weaker debut AND over-time sales.

 

[CorrisD]

Yeah I'm tired of the current zombie mode. They should either make whole new levels where you're going from a to b with a real objective, or flood the MP maps with zombies.

They should just merge Zombies and Spec Ops Survival essentially, have a specialised Zombie mode where you progress through a map and accomplish some sort of mission.
Then have a survival mode like MW3, on the MP maps with the little shops around to buy upgrades.

That would suit me just fine, and make sure it's all 4-player, he'll, increasing the player count would be even more awesome.

maybe there will be...future zombies?

Cyborg zombies, sign me up

Would totally take basic robot/cyborg type enemies instead that are essentially the same but different.

 

[Omega]

Is that leaked perklist real?

The one that had you crawling 3x faster, holding four knives, etc.? If so, I'm buying this game. I've always wanted an over-the-top CoD that just embraced it's stupidity instead of trying to be some serious shooter.

 

[kuYuri]

I thought West and Zampella were fighting for exclusive rights to make near-future games, guess that didn't go so well.

 

[ultron87]

I must say this is as the very least far more interesting than what I would've thought Black Ops II was going to be.

 

[Shogmaster]

Shark officially jumped...

 

[EYEL1NER]

the timer on callofduty.com is set for 7pm, but it's related to your system clock. i assume its 7pm Eastern, so still some time till then... although for me the timer has 4min left xD

What?! You mean the trailer isn't out?!
But with all the talk about how shitty the game is looking and there not being any unsanctioned missions or cold war-ish stuff and the other criticisms...... How could people know these things?
Is there some press or 'insider' trailer that people ITT have seen?

 

[The Elite]

Hope to get some news on the Vita version as well. They may hold that for E3 though.

 

[Neuromancer]

They should just merge Zombies and Spec Ops Survival essentially, have a specialised Zombie mode where you progress through a map and accomplish some sort of mission.
Then have a survival mode like MW3, on the MP maps with the little shops around to buy upgrades.

That would suit me just fine, and make sure it's all 4-player, he'll, increasing the player count would be even more awesome.

I like it

 

[TheOddOne]

Command & Conquer: Tiberium?

You might have something :lol

http://www.unseen64.net/2008/11/13/tiberium-ps3x360-cancelled/

 

[shysaursoft]

What?! You mean the trailer isn't out?!
But with all the talk about how shitty the game is looking and there not being any unsanctioned missions or cold war-ish stuff and the other criticisms...... How could people know these things?
Is there some press or 'insider' trailer that people ITT have seen?

Everyone is under NDA until May 2, I believe. All the talk about how shitty it looks, plays, will play, and stuff like that, are people just inferring from the few screenshots and leaked perk lists.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Everyone is under NDA until May 2, I believe. All the talk about how shitty it looks, plays, will play, and stuff like that, are people just inferring from the few screenshots and leaked perk lists.

And inference from observations of series trends.