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[BudokaiMR2]

they would just as soon assume they don't have your support and rely on you using your own eyes and brain to see hypocrisy where it stands and take their side.

But they are the hypocrites you say? Well then, there it is.


it seems the police are valued more than minority lgbt at pride, which is fair enough, I guess. The police being such powerful allies to the LGBT community.

I don't really understand this sentiment. Weren't they being brought to the forefront this year to lead the parade? Was that seen as an empty gesture which prompted the sit-in?

 

[Trojita]

if only the blacks could learn something from the gays and just be nice and protest quietly with their flags and sometimes have parades. And now we have gay marriage...in some places. It was just a matter of time, it was all inevitable, and I don't see why people have to be so rude.

anyway, I got my rights, my acceptance, my safe space, why can't you people just be quiet?

these black loud mouths do this every time I see them in the news. so fucking tired of it.

This ain't a good luck man. You're portraying it as though gay people didn't have to fight for their rights.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And what about minority LGBT, specifically black folk in this case, who see it as letting their oppressors march alongside and obfuscate the oppression they commit against minority communities.

How is that necessarily acting as inclusion.

They can see it that way, and others may see it differently. I don't think it is up to them to decide. That is up to the organisation of the event, who allowed it and it seems will continue to allow it.

I just don't get the 'us vs them' mentality with this. Isn't it better to have both sides attending and show their support?

 

[Tuck]

It's like a good portion of people forgot what pride is. They've forgotten events like Stonewall and would rather ally themselves with police that subjugate LGBT members who are Black and other PoC, rather than work to be more inclusive.

It's also baffling to see people who don't understand the problems that Canada has with Black people and Native populations. Anyone who shifts blame and says "it's not as bad as the US" is overwhelmingly missing the point and shows that they don't really care about marginalized groups.

BLM stages in a sit in and you'd think that they threw rocks at police. Very peaceful, they had a list of things that they wanted and they were viewed as antagonistic rather than seen as "Wow we need to do better here." To even say Black people and Police have an equal role to play when BLM is not enforcing predatory laws or upholding governmental oppression, the comparison just doesn't work. Police should be actively courting the Black community and work to do better.

That gay police officer who said "Well, I don't have an issue so BLM is the real problem here" just highlights racism in the gay community. Why would you want to be a dressed officer in a pride parade? Why not come as a community member?

The gay community is so disappointing. If you say nothing then you get confronted with racism and fetishism, and if you say anything you get called bitter and wanting to tear the community apart. I don't like the gay community because it's white centric. People would rather look at minorities holding events like Black gay pride and Native pride and other prides as segregation rather than say we need to do better as a community.

Pride is about protest, if you don't understand and recognize that and would rather support police who brutalize marginalized demographics, you've forgotten history and you're ignoring current events. And that's not Black people's fault, it's yours.

Fantastic post.

A quote (not by me): "You may say it was the wrong time and wrong place, but if they didn't choose that time and place, would anyone be talking about the issue?" And the answer is no. Protest isn't supposed to be convenient.

 

[akira28]

If you're going to call people out for apparently being racist, why tip toe around it?

This sort of "talking to an invisible person in a chair" roundabout accusation is so juvenile.

who am I calling out? who here do you think I'm accusing, Kintari?

who is this invisible person in what chair? rhetoric becomes a roundabout accusation for soooooome reason.

This ain't a good luck man. You're portraying it as though gay people didn't have to fight for their rights.

no, they're portraying it like gay people didn't have to fight for their rights. gay people had to get loud, inconvenience people, make people wonder why they were being so disruptive, like many other protest movements. They were even the bad guys, social deviants trying to destroy the fabric of our moral nation. That changed, but people did not always accept their protest.

 

[Infinite]

Fantastic post.

A quote (not by me): "You may say it was the wrong time and wrong place, but if they didn't choose that time and place, would anyone be talking about the issue?" And the answer is no. Protest isn't supposed to be convenient.

We continuously have this discussion everytime BLM decides to stage a protests.

 

[Cyframe]

I also wonder if people know what hyper visibility is. Black hyper visibility is not a privilege. If white gay men were saying "we don't feel comfortable with police in pride" the circumstance would be viewed a lot differently. White anger is seen as passionate. Black people getting angry (rightfully so and being peaceful) is seen as offensive and a clash with sensibilities.

I get tired of this "well maybe if they would be nicer, they'd get seen better". It literally doesn't matter. No matter how nice Black people are, we're always seen as antagonistic, and then people bring up MLK and how he protested, telling us (Black people) we should be more like him, when the reality is that they never would have supported him when he was alive.

It's anti-blackness. How do you blame people because others hold a prejudice against them? How is that the victims fault?

 

[excelsiorlef]

They can see it that way, and others may see it differently. I don't think it is up to them to decide. That is up to the organisation of the event, who allowed it and it seems will continue to allow it.

I just don't get the 'us vs them' mentality with this. Isn't it better to have both sides attending and show their support?

It becomes us vs them when the response to black people no fuck that black queer people in Toronto talking about how TO police oppresses their communities is to say how dare you, this isn't the US, Police are our allies.

Black queer people are queer people to ergo the police aren't allies to all LGBT and we ahould consider that.

If anything BLM TO has demonstrated how defangled, sanitized and monetized Pride has become.

Pride is protest.

 

[Kinitari]

who am I calling out? who here do you think I'm accusing, Kintari?

who is this invisible person in what chair? rhetoric becomes a roundabout accusation for soooooome reason.



no, they're portraying it like gay people didn't have to fight for their rights.

I have no idea who you are calling out, but it's pretty clear you're implying that people here are being racist, telling black people how to protest, or some such. If i misunderstood your intent, maybe it's because you're talking like you are?

 

[scogoth]

They had me up until the police exclusion. Its stupid to say they want everyone represented and included except you people because of your career choice. There are gay members of the police, there are black members of the police, there are gay black members of the police. If they want to be represented by their occupation and supported by their co-workers it's hypocritical to say they can't because this BLM group has a negative outlook on police.

 

[Tuck]

We continuously have this discussion everytime BLM decides to stage a protests.

Yeah. Us. Here. On GAF.

The average person (in Canada, where their presence is smaller)? No.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

We continuously have this discussion everytime BLM decides to stage a protests.

I just honestly don't understand why they staged a protest against a group that specifically asked them to lead the parade this year.

I guess the best explanation is that they saw it as an empty gesture and knew that a more well...confrontational approach would garner more attention, which is more than likely the case.

 

[akira28]

I have no idea who you are calling out, but it's pretty clear you're implying that people here are being racist, telling black people how to protest, or some such. If i misunderstood your intent, maybe it's because you're talking like you are?

everything isn't about you, Jon Snow.

"it's pretty clear you're implying that people {{full stop}} are being racist..."

 

[excelsiorlef]

I just honestly don't understand why they staged a protest against a group that specifically asked them to lead the parade this year.

I guess the best explanation is that they saw it as an empty gesture and knew that a more well...confrontational approach would garner more attention, which is more than likely the case.

It's pretty clear many outright considered them outsiders who they were invinting intobtheir home rather than roomates.

 

[Kinitari]

everything isn't about you, Jon Snow.

... what?

 

[Trojita]

akira28, we literally can't tell what you are commenting on lol.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It becomes us vs them when the response to black people no fuck that black queer people in Toronto talking about how TO police oppresses their communities is to say how dare you, this isn't the US, Police are our allies.

Black queer people are queer people to ergo the police aren't allies to all LGBT and we ahould consider that.

If anything BLM TO has demonstrated how defangled, sanitized and monetized Pride has become.

Pride is protest.

I just don't think that in this case, the way they demanded police to be removed from having their representation in such a way at the event is doing any good. I don't mind the sit in or whatever, but demanding that one group can't attend the event and show their support for the LGTB community doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[excelsiorlef]

They had me up until the police exclusion. Its stupid to say they want everyone represented and included except you people because of your career choice. There are gay members of the police, there are black members of the police, there are gay black members of the police. If they want to be represented by their occupation and supported by their co-workers it's hypocritical to say they can't because this BLM group has a negative outlook on police.

They didn't want a police as an institution a float given because as members of the queer community who are still oppressed by the police they felt like it wasn't right and that the police as an institution use it to cleanse their image, spoilers it's clearly working.

It's a debateable argument but this response of well I guess they oppose inclusion is bullshit. Inclusion is a two way street but I'm only seeing people asking BLM to cross it.

I just don't think that in this case, the way they demanded police to be removed from having their representation in such a way at the event is doing any good. I don't mind the sit in or whatever, but demanding that one group can't attend the event and show their support for the LGTB community doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

They focused on the institutional float. I see nothing where they'd deny members of the police access to the parade. (Though maybe not in uniform)

 

[Rembrandt]

akira28, we literally can't tell what you are commenting on lol.

speak for yourself.

 

[dubq]

I just don't think that in this case, the way they demanded police to be removed from having their representation in such a way at the event is doing any good. I don't mind the sit in or whatever, but demanding that one group can't attend the event and show their support for the LGTB community doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What about when said group has been responsible for the human rights violations of queer, black, and queer black people for decades? And that it's still ongoing? With that in mind, can you not see why a Police presence (rainbow lettered flak-jackets or not) would make many folks uneasy?

 

[Trojita]

speak for yourself.

PS4 Privilege?

 

[BudokaiMR2]

It's pretty clear many outright considered them outsiders who they were invinting intobtheir home rather than roomates.

I guess I just am not close enough to the situation to really understand the full context. From the original articles that talked about the "extinction" of black spaces I thought that we were literally talking about Pride denying them floats/stages/shows/etc.

However, the actual demands refer to additional funding and continued support. Has there been significant funding cut from the spaces in recent years? That seems possible and would make more sense.

 

[ClosingADoor]

They focused on the institutional float. I see nothing where they'd deny members of the police access to the parade. (Though maybe not in uniform)

I get that. But I still don't think it is a very good thing to do.

What about when said group has been responsible for the human rights violations of queer, black, and queer black people for decades? And that it's still ongoing? With that in mind, can you not see why a Police presence (rainbow lettered flak-jackets or not) would make many folks uneasy?

I rather see the people within the police force who are not participating in that terrible behavior being able to show their support then to ban them. And then work with them to solve the problems.

I have nothing against protests and the sit in to get their point across and raise awareness for these issues, but I think in this specific instance it was not the best way to handle it.

 

[Rembrandt]

PS4 Privilege?

What does my tag have to do with anything?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Is the idea of police officer as an orientation or a race ever goimg to die? The police are an institutional organization, they aren't a fucking species of human being.

 

[Azzanadra]

What about when said group has been responsible for the human rights violations of queer, black, and queer black people for decades? And that it's still ongoing? With that in mind, can you not see why a Police presence (rainbow lettered flak-jackets or not) would make many folks uneasy?

But see this only serves to further antagonize the police, you can't blame an entire career and the people who pursue that career on a few incidents. Besides, as someone who has been going to Toronto pride for a few years now, the police have never made people feel uneasy. The LGBT community has fun with the police, its a great event and helps break down the barriers between the people and the police, as well as diminishing negative viewpoints about them.

 

[Onemic]

They didn't want a police as an institution a float given because as members of the queer community who are still oppressed by the police they felt like it wasn't right.

It's a debateable argument but this response of well I guess they oppose inclusion is bullshit. Inclusion is a two way street but I'm only seeing people asking BLM to cross it.

It just doesnt make any sense to ban them considering how progressive the police has been toward owning up to their mistakes recently against the LGBT community. It would have made more sense last year, but now? It really seems that they took an American perspective toward this decision rather than a Canadian(and more specifically Torontonian) one.

I highly doubt the police will be banned from participating next year. Im sure BLM Toronto realizes that that demand was not well thought out at all and will rescind it eventually. All I can hope for now is that they take this opportunity of increased media presence to address black LGBT concerns with the community and make it more inclusive for everyone.

 

[dubq]

I rather see the people within the police force who are not participating in that terrible behavior being able to show their support then to ban them. And then work with them to solve the problems.

Then mayhaps they should attend as citizens and not as uniformed officers.

 

[User 479360]

I have no problem with them sitting in for more exposure and to fight any sort of inclusivity. However, there's no need for them to apparently have protested about and tried to ban police floats. Especially not in Canada.

 

[Rembrandt]

But see this only serves to further antagonize the police, you can't blame an entire career and the people who pursue that career on a few incidents. Besides, as someone who has been going to Toronto pride for a few years now, the police have never made people feel uneasy.

Antagonize the police?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Is the idea of police officer as an orientation or a race ever goimg to die? The police are an institutional organization, they aren't a fucking species of human being.

Ding!

Here here!

 

[Cagey]

For LGBT people, knowing they have the police as an ally when they get gaybashed is incredibly valuable on a community level.

Attacking the police though the pride parade is the most misguided things BLM toronto could have done.

Also, requesting to hide the police under the rug to protest unfair racial profiling is the most millenial solution possible. It doesn't accomplish jack shit, your problem still exists, but at least you made a loud scene and an inconsequential victory, here is a cookie.

they would just as soon assume they don't have your support and rely on you using your own eyes and brain to see hypocrisy where it stands and take their side.

But they are the hypocrites you say? Well then, there it is.


it seems the police are valued more than minority lgbt at pride, which is fair enough, I guess. The police being such powerful allies to the LGBT community.

if only the blacks could learn something from the gays and just be nice and protest quietly with their flags and sometimes have parades. And now we have gay marriage...in some places. It was just a matter of time, it was all inevitable, and I don't see why people have to be so rude.

anyway, I got my rights, my acceptance, my safe space, why can't you people just be quiet?

these black loud mouths do this every time I see them in the news. so fucking tired of it.

Despite the lack of quotation either time, its obvious there's at least one intended target.

When passive aggressive insults and accusations are correctly called out, don't play games. Own it.

It's a posting style, unfortunately moderator approved, that serves no productive purpose for discourse beyond getting back slaps from friends for sick burns.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Then mayhaps they should attend as citizens and not as uniformed officers.

Sure, if you want to ban institutions and organizations from attending and only allow individuals, the organization is free to do so.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It just doesnt make any sense to ban them considering how progressive the police has been toward owning up to their mistakes recently against the LGBT community. It would have made more sense last year, but now? It really seems that they took an American perspective toward this decision rather than a Canadian(and more specifically Torontonian) one.

I highly doubt the police will be banned from participating next year. Im sure BLM Toronto realizes that that demand was not well thought out at all and will rescind it eventually. All I can hope for now is that they take this opportunity of increased media presence to address black LGBT concerns with the community and make it more inclusive for everyone.

The white LGBT community you mean

I have no problem with them sitting in for more exposure and to fight any sort of inclusivity. However, there's no need for them to apparently have protested about and tried to ban police floats. Especially not in Canada.

Christ drop this not in Canada crap. Go back read the pages and pages I dug up. Police absolutely oppress minorities here they just don't kill them as much, and if that's enough for you I'd beg you to consider your position further.

This thread is like black version of Lewis' law. Responses to articles about BLM prove why BLM needs to exist

 

[Guevara]

Dude gay rights have been a fight since goddamn stonewall and that wasn't nice.

Also gay rights benefited from having a white male contingency who wanted rights and who could be shoved to the forfront. I mean it's no coincidence that HRC is such a white gay male dominated organization.

I definitely don't want to discount the very real and sometimes violent struggles of the gay rights movement historically, I just want to highlight that making allies is an effective strategy, perhaps even a more effective strategy, if you judge based on outcomes.

 

[Kinyou]

it seems the police are valued more than minority lgbt at pride, which is fair enough, I guess. The police being such powerful allies to the LGBT community.

Where did you get that from? People seem to be saying that they want both, minority LGBT and the police at the parade. People are asking for it to be inclusive, not exclusive.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Where did you get that from? People seem to be saying that they want both, minority LGBT and the police at the parade. People are asking for it to be inclusive, not exclusive.

Yeah they're welcome as long as they don't make their oppressors uncomfortable.

That's not inclusive that's silencing.

Police is an institution, people seem to forget that.

 

[Kinyou]

Yeah they're welcome as long as they don't make their oppressors uncomfortable.

That's not inclusive that's silencing.

They're welcome as long as they don't demand to kick others out. I don't find it hard to see why people might not like the idea of denying people attendance.

And police interacting more with minority LGBT members on a friendly basis during a parade is imo likely to have positive results.

 

[mlclmtckr]

I definitely don't want to discount the very real and sometimes violent struggles of the gay rights movement historically, I just want to highlight that making allies is an effective strategy, perhaps even a more effective strategy, if you judge based on outcomes.

But a lot of those allies were made through pissing people off, being confrontational, and disrupting the status quo. Which is okay for white queer folk but not for BLM, apparently.

BLM TO also had demands relating to South Asians and First Nations people. That's making allies.

Uncritical acceptance of the police department isn't making allies. It's just allowing yourself to be co-opted.

Whoever said it upthread has it right: a cop can take off his uniform if he wants. It's a job, not an identity.

 

[Onemic]

The white LGBT community you mean

Ok, it doesn't change that the demand wasn't well thought out at all.

 

[BeesEight]

Is the idea of police officer as an orientation or a race ever goimg to die? The police are an institutional organization, they aren't a fucking species of human being.

I can't confirm for this year's Pride but when I went there were other organizations that had floats in the parade like the army and firefighters.

My impression was that this allowed the visibility of LGBT members being in all strata of society. I suppose you could argue that all of them should be present in plain clothes. However, if it's just the police officers who can't be represented then I'm not on board with that demand.

This argument over police inclusion is far too distracting from the positive contributions of the protest. Greater diversity in the Pride organization and more exposure for trans and First Nation issues are incredibly important. I'd hate for those problems to be pushed aside again.

 

[dubq]

Sure, if you want to ban institutions and organizations from attending and only allow individuals, the organization is free to do so.

If you're having trouble understanding why the Police, as an enforcement organization, may not be a welcome presence, perhaps give this a read: https://nowtoronto.com/news/pride-2016/exclusive-black-lives-matter-pride-action-criticism/

 

[excelsiorlef]

They're welcome as long as they don't demand to kick others out. I don't find it hard to see why people might not like the idea of denying people attendance.

And police interacting more with minority LGBT members on a friendly basis during a parade is imo likely to have positive results.

Or just give them PR cover while they continue business as usual

The just former chief of police started marching in the parade in 05 decided to end his career last yead defending carding (aka stop and frisk) and blocking reforms on it. So yeah

 

[indigo lily]

I have no problem with them sitting in for more exposure and to fight any sort of inclusivity. However, there's no need for them to apparently have protested about and tried to ban police floats. Especially not in Canada.

Unfortunately, because there is no visibility on the actual issues minorities face (especially institutional) that these protests are important.

The reactions I'm seeing and the discourse many are having now is, for better or for worse, necessary.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

police officers are not an identity group

screeching at this mess

Probably best for your blood pressure if you stop screeching at imaginary arguments that no one has even alluded to.

The only point I have seen put forth is that LGBT members of the police force should not be excluded based on their career choice. What posts are you referencing that are painting them as an identity group?

And no, I don't believe they should be forced out of uniform either. It is a part of the life and they should not be ashamed of it.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I can't confirm for this year's Pride but when I went there were other organizations that had floats in the parade like the army and firefighters.

My impression was that this allowed the visibility of LGBT members being in all strata of society. I suppose you could argue that all of them should be present in plain clothes. However, if it's just the police officers who can't be represented then I'm not on board with that demand.

This argument over police inclusion is far too distracting from the positive contributions of the protest. Greater diversity in the Pride organization and more exposure for trans and First Nation issues are incredibly important. I'd hate for those problems to be pushed aside again.

As I said. The police are not a species of human being. If their feeling are hurt then they as a organizariom have the ability to go out their and be better and earn the respect of the community that distrusts them back.

But the reality is they dont really care to do that and the bulk of the unoppressed society domt really give a shit to demand better either.

Hence, thisbis why I dont really care if BLM upsets people. We as a society are more interested in looming out for the institution of police as an organization than minorities. There isn't a middle ground here. One is a group of people with actial demonstrated disadvantage in all facets of life. The other are both part of the oppression and also bitchimg cause they want a float and to wear a uniform.

This issue isn't distracting from he other good. This is the actual issue. The issue stems entirely from the fact that when minorities make noise people want them to ahut up. Everythimg stems from that.

 

[kirblar]

Both the LGBT organizations and black organizations are working on altering police behavior.

The reason this strikes a nerve is because this BLM group isn't just attempting to alter police behavior, but they're trying to disrupt the LGBT side's attempts to modify it. That's going to make people angry, and justifiably so.

 

[Zeeman]

The issue that people seem to be having trouble with is that the police clearly do have racial biases, and as a result, minority LGBT people are affected. However, their being LGBT isn't a factor in their police harassment, and so the venue seems inappropriate to an outsider. Intersectionality is a complicated thing, particularly when you aren't a member of the communities involved.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Probably best for your blood pressure if you stop screeching at imaginary arguments that no one has even alluded to.

The only point I have seen put forth is that LGBT members of the police force should not be excluded based on their career choice. What posts are you referencing that are painting them as an identity group?

And no, I don't believe they should be forced out of uniform either. It is a part of the life and they should not be ashamed of it.

Members aren't the request BLM TO asked for was no Police float, as in institutional float

 

[excelsiorlef]

Both the LGBT organizations and black organizations are working on altering police behavior.

The reason this strikes a nerve is because this BLM group isn't just attempting to alter police behavior, but they're trying to disrupt the LGBT side's attempts to modify it. That's going to make people angry, and justifiably so.

BLM TO, the ones at the parade at least are LGBT.

Stop treating them like they're outsiders. They pay fucking rent.