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[darscot]

Getting the support of the general public that's never done shit and never will do shit even after they say they will is a losing battle. If you gave a fuck about freeing people from oppression, you would already be doing so.

It's interesting how passionate you were in your posts before this about just how sure you were you understood their goals and motivations. As you were told from the start, try listening to others. You don't know them or know what's better for them better than they do.

You don't even know me or what I stand for. If you can't see that this hardline stance is not a good approach in Canada just do a little market research.

 

[Kinitari]

Please read the rest of my posts in this thread before replaying to one of my posts out of context. We pretty much have the exact same stance on this issue. I was talking about the police historically, not recently.

I'm a little bit confused then, I'm not sure what you mean by the police giving lip service and not following through, past or present. Sorry if I misunderstood your point or your position however.

 

[Prax]

lol, I feel kind of bad just reading the thread and cringing at how some people are just at crossroads with method of progress and change.

We have some real ends-justify-the-means vs some-means-are-more-effective-than-others type. I think all of you should be aware of this point of contention when it comes to fighting for progress, because it happens so often, and I'm not even sure people are able to compromise on this, but maybe take a step back before everyone starts calling everyone the "real reason why change never happens" or whatever. We're all generally trying to build a good world.

As for BLM-TO's actions possibly being counterproductive to their cause, I think that's possible, but I also think some concessions will me made in spite of frustration. BLM-TO will take it as a win (yet still eternally unsatisfied b/c that's their role), and the people making concessions will feel like they just enabled a tantruming baby's behaviour even more (but will feel smug about being able to take the high road in the name of progress, as is their role), and things will generally work in a good direction, hopefully.

I myself am more of a pragmatic type that will give side-eye to behaviour that comes off as idealistic-but-naively-myopic, but I can see the role that plays and some good things still come out of it even if it makes me cringe in my soul. lol I think Canada and the general population has it in them to work this out for the better even if we're all disagreeing with method. Even though we won't be perfect, we're still better than a lot of the world, even if we still have work to do. It's an endless chase.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

You don't even know me or what I stand for. If you can't see that this hardline stance is not a good approach in Canada just do a little market research.

You said I was talking nonsense by suggesting BLM isn't looking for the public's approval. You won't find such a statement from them, but you've already assumed that was their whole MO for some reason.

You really need to be more humble about this and admit to yourself you may not be as educated about these issues as you think you are. Read what they have to say, listen to their speeches. BLM exists out in the open for everyone. As it is, you're clearly coming in to the discussion with no educated viewpoint on it.

 

[truestatic]

Who do you think comprises advocacy groups? Walks in their walks? Donates to their causes? Argues with their family about minorities at Thanksgiving? Provides stages and venues specifically for minorities? Just last week I went to a story telling event that happens monthly, this month was themed "diversity in Toronto".

A lot of these are small things, sure - but these small, supportive gestures are the backbone of a lot of our cities culture. Of our countries culture.

Saying Canadians don't care about minorities is crazy to me as a Canadian and as a minority.

But you're the exception, I'd say. We have plenty of apathy and even outright bigotry here.

 

[darscot]

You said I was talking nonsense by suggesting BLM isn't looking for the public's approval. You won't find such a statement from them, but you've already assumed that was their whole MO for some reason.

You really need to be more humble about this and admit to yourself you may not be as educated about these issues as you think you are. Read what they have to say, listen to their speeches. BLM exists out in the open for everyone. As it is, you're clearly coming in to the discussion with no educated viewpoint on it.

Any group that wants to make change need support from the general public, are you seriously trying to argue this point?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Who do you think comprises advocacy groups? Walks in their walks? Donates to their causes? Argues with their family about minorities at Thanksgiving? Provides stages and venues specifically for minorities? Just last week I went to a story telling event that happens monthly, this month was themed "diversity in Toronto".

A lot of these are small things, sure - but these small, supportive gestures are the backbone of a lot of our cities culture. Of our countries culture.

Saying Canadians don't care about minorities is crazy to me as a Canadian and as a minority.

When the time comes to make institutional change where are the actual steps lead by none minorities? The country is what? 78% white? Where are the institutional changes being advocated from if they are advocated.

I think you confuse my posts as someone who thinks all Canadians are racist. That isn't it. My issue is that when there is a push for big change Canadians are apathetic. They don't feel problems are far reaching. That's entirely different than the idea that Canada just hates minorities.

Our country is great in celebrating culture but there is a huge lacking in looking at the big picture to even the playing field for minorities.

So yeah as a Canadian and a minority also, I obviously disagree with you. But I didnt formthjs opinion on some falsified anger. I also think your city perspective is different than someone who grew up in a small town as the lone black family.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Any group that wants to make change need support from the general public, are you seriously trying to argue this point?

Yes. Elaborate on why that's necessary. Explain how black queers are going to get anyone to give a shit about them who doesn't already.

 

[darscot]

Yes. Elaborate on why that's necessary. Explain how black queers are going to get anyone to give a shit about them who doesn't already.

Ok, I can't have a discussion with this level of ignorance.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Ok, I can't have a discussion with this level of ignorance.

You're making things up about what you think is the right way to do things and what you think BLM's goals are, and you're calling others ignorant?

Show us one place where BLM made a statement about wanting the public's general support. Show us where this is a goal for them.

 

[Kinitari]

But you're the exception, I'd say. We have plenty of apathy and even outright bigotry here.

I'm an exception? I'm talking about other people who fund raise, donate time and just mental energy towards plights of minorities in the city. I'm along for the ride most of the time.

Yes there are the bigoted, and yes the apathetic, but to discount the Canadians that are neither, that give when they can give towards supporting Canadians...

I'm offended on their behalf. Of the families that take in Syrian refugees and donate their time and money getting them on their feet, from basically everywhere in Canada. The Canadians who were, a few blocks over during pride, protesting the treatment of Palestinians. Just the every day Facebook friends who constantly bring up diversity and inclusion. The same ones who are going to tell me they think what BLM did was righteous, and I'll feel too bad to argue my position with them because they try so hard to be considerate, open minded and supportive.

Every time you say 'Canadians don't care' you shit on these people.

 

[mlclmtckr]

#notallwhitepeople

 

[Gotdatmoney]

#notallwhitepeople

I dont think anyone is alsaying that.

 

[Kinitari]

When the time comes to make institutional change where are the actual steps lead by none minorities? The country is what? 78% white? Where are the institutional changes being advocated from if they are advocated.

I think you confuse my posts as someone who thinks all Canadians are racist. That isn't it. My issue is that when there is a push for big change Canadians are apathetic. They don't feel problems are far reaching. That's entirely different than the idea that Canada just hates minorities.

Our country is great in celebrating culture but there is a huge lacking in looking at the big picture to even the playing field for minorities.

So yeah as a Canadian and a minority also, I obviously disagree with you. But I didnt formthjs opinion on some falsified anger. I also think your city perspective is different than someone who grew up in a small town as the lone black family.

When the time comes to make institutional changes, like we've made before, you have Canadians fighting for them. Of course the ones who are effected the most lead the charge, they have to because the people who aren't have no idea about the issues they face. But do you think it was just minorities who fought against carding? Who are fighting against marijuana criminalization because of the disproportionally negative effect it has on minorities? Who criticized the previous government because of the actions they took that significantly increased the incarceration of minorities? Who fight for aboriginals through the legal process?

This is a part of the attitude I hate. This depressing, short sighted two dimensional charicuture of non minorities. It shames me when my family used to say this sort of stuff growing up and that shame is something I feel every time a group of people I agree with, use hash tags like "notallwhitepeople" ironically. Like it's embarrassing.

 

[Onemic]

I'm a little bit confused then, I'm not sure what you mean by the police giving lip service and not following through, past or present. Sorry if I misunderstood your point or your position however.

I meant that before the carding reforms, apologies, and recent accountability the police have made in the past 1-2 years you could make the argument that they have largely been claiming support for LGBT by coming to the parade, while in practice still doing things that unfairly discriminate towards them, specifically black and minority LGBT. That's clearly the reason why BLM made that demand, as short sighted as it is.

I am saying Canadians didnt give a shit about minority issues at all, which as whole they dont.

Fucking please.

 

[Cranster]

Canadians didnt give a shit about minority issues before black lives matter.

That's a very ignorant comment.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

When the time comes to make institutional changes, like we've made before, you have Canadians fighting for them. Of course the ones who are effected the most lead the charge, they have to because the people who aren't have no idea about the issues they face. But do you think it was just minorities who fought against carding? Who are fighting against marijuana criminalization because of the disproportionally negative effect it has on minorities? Who criticized the previous government because of the actions they took that significantly increased the incarceration of minorities? Who fight for aboriginals through the legal process?

This is a part of the attitude I hate. This depressing, short sighted two dimensional charicuture of non minorities. It shames me when my family used to say this sort of stuff growing up and that shame is something I feel every time a group of people I agree with, use hash tags like "notallwhitepeople" ironically. Like it's embarrassing.

I think you're arguing for people getting credit for progress they've helped while other people are wondering why they still have to fight for equality if everyone's so supportive. The reality is that while there are great people, there are not nearly enough of them, or these issues wouldn't even exist.

 

[darscot]

I think you're arguing for people getting credit for progress they've helped while other people are wondering why they still have to fight for equality if everyone's so supportive. The reality is that while there are great people, there are not nearly enough of them, or these issues wouldn't even exist.

I think maybe you need to take a minute, your posting with a lot of emotion. I myself do the same thing and it messes with what you are trying to say. You coming across really badly now.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

When the time comes to make institutional changes, like we've made before, you have Canadians fighting for them. Of course the ones who are effected the most lead the charge, they have to because the people who aren't have no idea about the issues they face. But do you think it was just minorities who fought against carding? Who are fighting against marijuana criminalization because of the disproportionally negative effect it has on minorities? Who criticized the previous government because of the actions they took that significantly increased the incarceration of minorities? Who fight for aboriginals through the legal process?

This is a part of the attitude I hate. This depressing, short sighted two dimensional charicuture of non minorities. It shames me when my family used to say this sort of stuff growing up and that shame is something I feel every time a group of people I agree with, use hash tags like "notallwhitepeople" ironically. Like it's embarrassing.

Well I can't really help you here since this is an ideological difference. But I disagree with the idea thatnits 2D to recognize that if minorities don't step up the plate and do the bulk of the advocacy nothing gets done.

Any statistic, testmonial, psych study will highlight drastic difference in perception and treatment between minorities and the general populace. I dont grasp how long native canadians need to bitch about boil water advisories before its something the general populace turns their head and is like "yo this is bullshit".

If your ideological view is that, oh there are people that fight for this so therefore it is not the problem you make it I strongly disagree. I dont think the black community shouldn't need to be in a fight with city police over fucking carding. I don't think I should have to see the huge disparity in resources available to the general populace vs the aboriginal reserve I drive through everyday. How the fuck do you go to school and your first nations classmates comment on having no water today in Canada?

I view this differently. I think it paints me as someone who is ignorant to the world around him because I'm far more critical of lack of progress that should be simple to accomplish if the general populace cared more.

Canadians dont care doesnt mean the country has no ability to advance ir do things. Its a statement that the picture isn't as pristine as people would have you believe and I sure as hell stand by that.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

Any group that wants to make change need support from the general public, are you seriously trying to argue this point?

Yeah but BLM isn't going to try and please people who are more concerned if police can pat themselves on the back for "progress" instead of addressing violence against queer individuals of colour in Canada. Nor should they.

There's a lot more whataboutism in this thread then I'd hoped for.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

That's a very ignorant comment.

I worded it weird. Wha II was tryimg to say was black lives matyer is not turning people away from their cause. The people who dont care about what BLM is sayimg now didnt care about it before they exiisted.

Its just apathetic people continuing to be apathetic basically.

I know that post is gonna be quoted a billiom times but it makes sense in the comtext of what the discussion was if you read the whole thing as a unit. BLM are not the originators of advocacy, that would infact be ignoramt.

 

[darscot]

Yeah but BLM isn't going to try and please people who are more concerned if police can pat themselves on the back for "progress" instead of addressing violence against queer individuals of colour in Canada. Nor should they.

There's a lot more whataboutism in this thread then I'd hoped for.

A step forward is a step forward. Telling them to get the fuck out because you don't feel the step is enough is not the best approach. People are really ignoring what a huge step it is to have as much Police support as we have in this country for minorities . Yes we need more but we need to keep going forward. Being more inclusive, gain more support, gain more awareness. BLM is a valid cause and I normally would fully support them, in this instance they got carried away and crossed a line I am not willing to cross with them.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

A step forward is a step forward. Telling them to get the fuck out because you don't feel the step is enough is not the best approach. People are really ignoring what a huge step it is to have as much Police support as we have in this country for minorities . Yes we need more but we need to keep going forward. Being more inclusive, gain more support, gain more awareness. BLM is a valid cause and I normally would fully support them, in this instance they got carried away and crossed a line I am not willing to cross with them.

How is a float in Toronto pride evidence of police support against racial minorities. TO pride is not innocent irt allowing the conversation to be dominiated by the white and cis constituencies in the Ontario LGBT community (which was like the fucking point of BLM's protest).

It seems to me that your fine with people agitating for an end to injustice up until the point where it moves against the comfortable illusion you have about our social fabric. Nobody made TO pride choose BLM as the grand marshal of the parade, why should BLM then feign a truce with police (in an institutional capacity) to make everyone else feel better?

 

[darscot]

How is a float in Toronto pride evidence of police support against racial minorities. TO pride is not innocent irt allowing the conversation to be dominiated by the white and cis constituencies in the Ontario LGBT community (which was like the fucking point of BLM's protest).

It seems to me that your fine with people agitating for an end to injustice up until the point where it moves against the comfortable illusion you have about our social fabric. Nobody made TO pride choose BLM as the grand marshal of the parade, why should BLM then feign a truce with police (in an institutional capacity) to make everyone else feel better?

I'm not going to separate groups or support a group that does. Minorities need support, be them racial, sexual or any other silly line we create to divide them. Any police willing to get on a float and show support is welcome and demanding them be excluded I can not support. The goal is to create equality, the whole point is a truce and to make things better. It's not a war they should not be picking sides. Calling out the police as an enemy in Canada I do not agree with. Yes the police have issues, but reaching out them as individuals I believe is the best approach. The institution will move with the voice of its members. I think there are plenty of police that would call out other police, do not alienate them.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

I'm not going to separate groups or support a group that does. Minorities need support, be them racial, sexual or any other silly line we create to divide them. Any police willing to get on a float and show support is welcome and demanding them be excluded I can not support. The goal is to create equality, the whole point is a truce and to make things better. It's not a war they should not be picking sides. Calling out the police as an enemy in Canada I do not agree with. Yes the police have issues, but reaching out them as individuals I believe is the best approach. The institution will move with the voice of its members. I think there are plenty of police that would call out other police, do not alienate them.

This is the "only racists see race" argument of judging advocacy groups. This line of thinking wants to just "lump all the brown people and queers together because after all, they're all oppressed". That way they're all winners when society decides to stop being shitty to some of them.

People need to be more worried about solidarity and less about the warm fuzzies of "inclusion",

edited for clarity

 

[darscot]

This is the "only racists see race" argument of judging advocacy groups. This line of thinking wants to just "lump all the brown people and queers together because after all, they're all oppressed". That way they're all winners when society decides to stop being shitty to some of them.

People need to be more worried about solidarity and less about the warm fuzzies of "inclusion",

edited for clarity

I'm not lumping them together at all. A group can be the cause of anything it wants. If a group wants to champion black rights or gay rights all the power to them. What I wont support is a group that says sorry we are black for black rights so we won't allow this group of people. Or gay for gay rights or any possible combination. I can't support any group that actively tries to exclude another group.

Your last sentence is really not the type of thing I would want to hear from anyone. It's hard line bullshit. I do not believe any group in Canada is that oppressed that preaching that garbage is acceptable.

 

[Onemic]

I'm not going to separate groups or support a group that does. Minorities need support, be them racial, sexual or any other silly line we create to divide them. Any police willing to get on a float and show support is welcome and demanding them be excluded I can not support. The goal is to create equality, the whole point is a truce and to make things better. It's not a war they should not be picking sides. Calling out the police as an enemy in Canada I do not agree with. Yes the police have issues, but reaching out them as individuals I believe is the best approach. The institution will move with the voice of its members. I think there are plenty of police that would call out other police, do not alienate them.

Just for clarification, BLM demanded that police floats be banned from the parade, not police officers.

 

[darscot]

Just for clarification, BLM demanded that police floats be banned from the parade, not police officers.

It's all the same shit, they are pushing an agenda of exclusion and I will not support that or a cause that uses it. You start throwing the word ban towards groups of people I'm out.

 

[excelsiorlef]

A step forward is a step forward. Telling them to get the fuck out because you don't feel the step is enough is not the best approach. People are really ignoring what a huge step it is to have as much Police support as we have in this country for minorities . Yes we need more but we need to keep going forward. Being more inclusive, gain more support, gain more awareness. BLM is a valid cause and I normally would fully support them, in this instance they got carried away and crossed a line I am not willing to cross with them.

Like what?
Other than not killing or maiming them.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's all the same shit, they are pushing an agenda of exclusion and I will not support that or a cause that uses it. You start throwing the word ban towards groups of people I'm out.

It's fundamentally in fact not the same shit.

A float is a testament to the institution.

Officers taking part sans that is not.

 

[zer0blivion]

Here's The Beaverton's take on it. For those unaware, The Beaverton is a satirical news site, like The Onion.

Gay cop delivers open letter to Black Lives Matter protestors while carding them

“Exclusion does not promote inclusion,” read the letter, delivered while the officer enacted a policy of systematic racial discrimination.

While many have criticised Black Lives Matter for saying the police have no business attending a parade that began as a protest against police brutality, only the one officer has been courageous enough to put his words in ink, and deliver them by hand while carrying out a police practice that the office of the Ombudsman considers illegal.

 

[darscot]

It's fundamentally in fact not the same shit.

A float is a testament to the institution.

Officers taking part sans that is not.

The institution of police in Canada is not a hate group, they should not be banned. They are not perfect but they are making strides to improve. Banning them is stupidity. And you previous post is just hyperbole.

 

[M0nochromatic]

I don't quite understand the negativity going on, isn't this basic political maneuvering? BLM expresses it grievances with the police by asking for them to be excluded from Pride in a public manner because of racist actions by the police.

Pride hears out BLM, but once the issue has been raised it does not exclude the police, so as to not ruin what good will there is between the police and them.

BLM was able to make their issues heard through Pride. Getting rid of a float and police presence dosen't seem like the actual goal, or even a desirable outcome.

 

[Onemic]

I don't quite understand the negativity going on, isn't this basic political maneuvering? BLM expresses it grievances with the police by asking for them to be excluded from Pride in a public manner because of racist actions by the police.

Pride hears out BLM, but once the issue has been raised it does not exclude the police, so as to not actually ruin what good will there is between the police and them.

BLM was able to make their issues heard through Pride. Actually getting rid of a float and police presence dosen't seem like the actual goal, or even a desirable outcome.

This is honestly what I believe will happen. I don't see BLM actually following through with that demand for next years pride.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The institution of police in Canada is not a hate group, they should not be banned. They are not perfect but they are making strides to improve. Banning them is stupidity. And you previous post is just hyperbole.

They aren't their institutional symbol, aka the float, which still disrupts their lives is what BLM called for to be not allowed

And I've seen little attempt at them improving their relationship with the black community

 

[prelude514]

I'm not, maybe read what I posted, I am fully aware of the issues the Native community faces. I am also aware that I have never heard a Native person exclude anyone.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/kahnawake-membership-law-human-rights-1.3471715

Now you have.

 

[akira28]

Despite the lack of quotation either time, its obvious there's at least one intended target.

When passive aggressive insults and accusations are correctly called out, don't play games. Own it.

It's a posting style, unfortunately moderator approved, that serves no productive purpose for discourse beyond getting back slaps from friends for sick burns.

hm?

oh, you're mistaken. that affected speaker wasn't a poster here. passive aggressive is just your way of trying to say someone is being misleading while also being afraid. if that's what you're trying to say, own it.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Good read for this thread:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...inconvenient-thats-the-point/article30758467/

Black Lives Matter is dramatic, unsettling and inconvenient. That’s the point

Naila Keleta-Mae is a professor at the University of Waterloo where she researches race, gender, theatre and performance.

Some people are livid that Black Lives Matter staged a 30 minute sit-in at Pride Toronto’s marquee parade on Sunday afternoon.

Pride Toronto is the status quo in terms of representations of lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer and transgender communities in Toronto and the front-line activism that organizations like Black Lives Matter engage in isn’t intended to comfort or reaffirm the status quo.

Get Flash Player
The undercurrent of much of the anger and frustration about Black Lives Matter’s latest action is the perceived audacity of the membership to use the platform of their Honour Group status at Pride Toronto to publicly and dramatically critique Pride Toronto.

But when we think that any of our institutions – from LGBTQ organizations to police forces – are beyond scrutiny and public reproach then history tells us we have entered dangerous territory.

Canada has a violent history that is fraught with painful examples of what can happen when large institutions go unchecked; even well-meaning ones that are full of good intentions.

Black Lives Matter, a grassroots chapter in Toronto of an activist movement that spans North America, is part of a long tradition of front-line activism that spans generations, cultures and issues.

The dramatic delivery of the group’s activism is intended to unsettle the majority and empower minorities. In the space opened by its activism, different groups of people are emboldened and different groups of people are silenced – even if only for a moment. That is the point.

The group’s demands are always lofty and its tactics are always attention-grabbing: from shutting down the Allen Expressway, to building a tent city in front of Toronto Police Services headquarters, to bringing a letter printed in large format to City Hall for city councillors to read.

Do their tactics expose already vulnerable communities to more vulnerability? Yes. Is their activism a sign of progress? Absolutely.

For some, progress looks like increased police presence, the first ever sitting Prime Minister marching in the parade, and heterosexual people at Pride wearing stickers that read “Ally.” For some, progress looks like the list of demands that Black Lives Matter issued to Pride Toronto, things like: “self-determination for all community spaces,” “a commitment to increase representation amongst Pride Toronto staffing/hiring,” and “double funding for Blockorama + ASL interpretation & headliner funding.”

For others, progress is a combination of these things. Progress is messy. Progress is fought for and fought over, especially when it takes into account the perspectives of a wide and disparate range of people.

But anger from the masses seems to be really centred on one thing: Black Lives Matter’s demand for “the removal of police floats/booths in all Pride marches/parades/community spaces.”

The irony of people rising up in 2016 to defend the police presence at Pride Toronto lies in the organization’s history. When Pride Toronto started in 1981 it was as a riot against 150 police officers who raided gay bathhouses and arrested more than 300 men. The foundation of what is now known as Pride Toronto was essentially a sit-in. It was a protest. Thirty-five years later, Black Lives Matter staged a sit-in at the sit-in. They advocated within an advocacy group and that is familiar terrain for black people who have participated in social justice movements for generations across North America. There is a long history of grassroots black activists advocating for the concerns of marginalized people within mainstream efforts for equality across the continent.

Front-line activism rarely feels good for those whose lives and worldviews are interrupted or inconvenienced by public demonstrations of dissent.

But it is not the job of grassroots activists to make those who condone their marginalization and oppression to feel as though everything is fine.

Many have focused on the appropriateness and efficacy of the organization’s tactics, but the real question is this: How will Pride Toronto’s leadership respond?

In many ways, that is always the most important question whenever the mainstream is challenged because the response indicates the vision the organization has for itself and for the communities it represents.

For that reason, Pride Toronto’s response is precisely what we should pay close attention to in the months and years to come.

Reminds me of a common sign I see at these: "The first pride parade was a riot."

 

[equippedwithtowel]

But see this only serves to further antagonize the police, you can't blame an entire career and the people who pursue that career on a few incidents. Besides, as someone who has been going to Toronto pride for a few years now, the police have never made people feel uneasy. The LGBT community has fun with the police, its a great event and helps break down the barriers between the people and the police, as well as diminishing negative viewpoints about them.

If the police feel antagonised by this then fuck them. They're public servants and black Canadians shouldn't have to be nice to them to deal with the issue of violence on an institutional level. How far are we removed from the peak era of carding in Toronto? Where are apologies for anti-queer police violence apart from the bathhouse raids?

Here's a thought experiment, instead of treating the LGBT community like a monolith ask yourself if there might be a problem with visibility and inclusion amongst their most vulnerable members? That would seem to challenge the conclusion that "The LGBT community has fun with the police" and maybe compel you to take BLM seriously and hear their grievances out.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If the police feel antagonised by this then fuck them. They're public servants and black Canadians shouldn't have to be nice to them to deal with the issue of violence on an institutional level. How far are we removed from the peak era of carding in Toronto? Where are apologies for anti-queer police violence apart from the bathhouse raids?

Here's a thought experiment, instead of treating the LGBT community like a monolith ask yourself if there might be a problem with visibility and inclusion amongst their most vulnerable members? That would seem to challenge the conclusion that "The LGBT community has fun with the police" and maybe compel you to take BLM seriously and hear their grievances out.

They certainly haven't apologized for the Pussy Palace raids in 2000

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/bathhouse-raids-pussy-palace-1.3647636

Not surprising violatingwomen's space is pretty much a party of contemporary culture.

 

[grumble]

Their concerns about black LGBT being overlooked are apt. Last year in the DC area there was a huge rash of hate crimes against black transwomen that barely got any attention.

Sure and that is fair but I mean it's not even the same country. The treatment of gay people and those of different ethnic backgrounds is different in Canada.

 

[zer0blivion]

Sure and that is fair but I mean it's not even the same country. The treatment of gay people and those of different ethnic backgrounds is different in Canada.

Yeah, totally.

Mural for murdered transgender women of colour vandalized in Ottawa's centretown
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/ottawa/transgender-women-colour-mural-vandalize-1.3241389

 

[Layell]

I do hope that some of the BLM demands are met in regards to funding and minority rep in pride. But the police part can't just be up to them, and that is what pride reps have apparently been saying.

I can't imagine this being an overall great step forward for BLM-TO either, what groups are going to invite them to events if this is how they treat their guest of honour status?

 

[anaron]

the police exclusion is just absurd.


a lot of these are older gay and lesbian police workers illustrating their own pride having actually grown up when it was especially brutal and not supported.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Yeah, TPS isn't perfect but what good is exclusion going to bring? You would think bringing them together would be a positive. What does exclusion get? "Well, we're not allowed back let's do better until we can get back" isn't the type of mentality a lot of people have anywhere. Compromise is key for progress.

 

[23qwerty]

the police exclusion is just absurd.


a lot of these are older gay and lesbian police workers illustrating their own pride having actually grown up when it was especially brutal and not supported.

It's not an exclusion, they're still allowed to be there, just no police float which makes sense. Shouldn't be celebrating the police.

 

[hupla]

I feel like the difference between police matching in the parade and the police having a float comes down to this for some people:

Individual Cops Marching = then showing their personal pride as people

The police having a float= Direct implication the police as a whole and as a foundation are allies to the LGBTQ community

I feel personally the police as a whole and as a construct are not direct allies so it makes sense why they shouldn't have a float and why people wouldn't want them to

 

[anaron]

It's not an exclusion, they're still allowed to be there, just no police float which makes sense. Shouldn't be celebrating the police.

it's celebrating the police force supporting the LGBT and their gay officers during a gay pride parade. It's not an award ceremony.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Members aren't the request BLM TO asked for was no Police float, as in institutional float

That is exactly why I said they shouldn't be forced out of uniform either. Yes it is an institutional float. But it is an institutional float whose purpose is to celebrate their LGBT members. That isn't a bad thing.

just people conflating exclusion of black people with exclusion of police officers by utilizing "both ways" arguments, and that no exclusion should occur, when one of these groups is not an identity, but a career choice

key word is CHOICE

kthx

So you are just ignoring all nuance in those posts and taking it to illogical extremes to fit your framing? That's nice I guess.

No one is really directly conflating the two groups as far as I have seen. They are saying that having an institution that is absolutely a key cog in making any real inroads or change attending the event in an official capacity is a perfect example of how important inclusion is--whether it is based on gender or racial identity, career choice, or political views. And trying to bar their official presence when they are nothing but a positive force in this specific event is just muddying their own message of intersectionality.

Treating the institution like some boogeyman that needs to be shooed away instead of as a group of individuals with their own identities, opinions, and beliefs who can and should be reasoned with is just an all around bad idea.

I do hope that some of the BLM demands are met in regards to funding and minority rep in pride. But the police part can't just be up to them, and that is what pride reps have apparently been saying.

I can't imagine this being an overall great step forward for BLM-TO either, what groups are going to invite them to events if this is how they treat their guest of honour status?

I honestly worry if this will end up getting them more funding which is something I fully believe should happen. The reason I worry is because it seems like this has been an ongoing conversation between the two groups. Basically holding the event hostage until they promise them more funding is just not a good way to go about things. It seems a bit disrespectful and the people in charge of the purse strings are probably not going to look at it in a good light. It could set them back in that regard, although I hope it does not.

 

[Dead Man]

it's celebrating the police force supporting the LGBT and their gay officers during a gay pride parade. It's not an award ceremony.

Indeed. To be seen publicly and officially supporting queer people is a very important part of police involvement in any Pride event.