Then have a discussion on it and how the police can do better toward black and minority LGBT/LGBT in general. Toronto is not at the point where it's so bad that the police should not have any representation at the event. After the bathhouse apology and the carding reforms, it makes no sense to ban them from future events and looks extremely short sighted. I would at the very least play a wait and see to see if the police will take their recent progressive PR and actually put it into practice.
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BLM Activists have a Sit-In at Toronto Pride to Fight for a More Inclusive Pride.
- Thread starter excelsiorlef
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Then have a discussion on it and how the police can do better toward black and minority LGBT/LGBT in general. Toronto is not at the point where it's so bad that the police should not have any representation at the event. After the bathhouse apology and the carding reforms, it makes no sense to ban them from future events and looks extremely short sighted. I would at the very least play a wait and see to see if the police will take their recent progressive PR and actually put it into practice.
Have a discussion? Where have you been. Those fucking discussions have been "happening" for years yet nothing changes. Are you speaking from some place of privilege with this comment?
It's crazy that people keep saying this shit since BLM the org is founded by lgbt black women and the majority of its chapters consists mostly of lgbt black men and women.
excelsiorlef
Member
They've been having that discussion for years. Police don't really care to listen all that much.
Also
https://nowtoronto.com/news/pride-2016/exclusive-black-lives-matter-pride-action-criticism/
Oh and the apology mural?
The same one whose artist (hired I believe by the police) did this?:
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think some of you need to think about a protest or disruption you've ever liked. If you don't have one, think about why.
People concerned with ending oppression and racism aren't concerned with making friends with people who won't have their backs when it gets time to do the work. You can criticize their actions, but you should also think about what actions you'd prefer, and then you should get involved with the activist group to share your ideas. After all, you guys keep saying this is about everyone working together and being nice, right? Show us.
People concerned with ending oppression and racism aren't concerned with making friends with people who won't have their backs when it gets time to do the work. You can criticize their actions, but you should also think about what actions you'd prefer, and then you should get involved with the activist group to share your ideas. After all, you guys keep saying this is about everyone working together and being nice, right? Show us.
lmao
It's funny that in the exact same post you quoted I talked about changes that have already happened this past year(carding reforms and the bathhouse apology) Are you from Toronto?
I specifically said the bathouse, not all attacks on LGBT. I stated that because it's a start, not the end all be all. I never claimed they were perfect or on some post-discrimination bullshit. I'm the last person to be on the side of police for anything if youve read any of my posts concerning them. This is a short sighted move though and I know BLM Toronto most likely already realizes this.
You're right, progress can only come if we isolate law enforcement from community activities, because they need a time out to think about how bad they have been.
The end game of this sit-in is noble, but wanting to block police participation is backwards and counter productive.
I'm reacting to their behavior, not their identity.
I'm not sure that's the case. The parade I attended had a float composed of LGBT members of the force. It's an organization filled with human beings. And I'd be very surprised if some of those members haven't earned the right to walk with their community as many of the others have.
The history of the police with the LGBT community is well known and I think it's a very narrow narrative to think that those who joined the force and were out were somehow immune to the discrimination that was displayed against the community itself.
I suppose I should state my bias but my mother is a retired police officer and was one of the first women of the force. She faced the misogyny of that time from her peers just like others did. If there was a feminist march that wanted to exclude her or demand that she have to hide her profession despite her work within it because of the greater misogyny of her peers I'd be arguing its shortsighted opinion too.
Many of those people are members of our community too. They have every reason to be out and proud as BLM do. I'm not going to tell one person they aren't allowed because they haven't suffered enough to qualify for the parade.
Nor would I ask that BLM stop protesting racial profiling, carding and the other forms of systematic racism. Bring both of them to the table. The LGBT experience is a varied one and I feel we are better by representing that. That's why I'm behind the rest of their initiative. We need more voices.
excelsiorlef
Member
Carding reforms that came from the Ontario Liberal government? Police get no credit for that one.
Also bathhouse has already been addressed. Not good enough
Gotdatmoney
Member
The police are not fucking interested in being productive with the black community. I dom't grasp how people do not understand this. How much evidence needs to be posted in this thread alone for people to grasp that?
If all black people had to do to solve our issues was ask for a meeting with police and politely layout our cocerns don't you think this would be over like 50 years ago?
The Hamilton police department wont even admit to practicing carding but some how its a discussion that is needed?
Again. This mindset is exaxtly why BLM doesnt even give a shit about backlash. Its insane.
Like I said, I never stated it was an end all be all, but it's a start. It would be smarter to take a wait and see approach with the police to see if they actually do put that apology into practice over the next year instead of just stonewalling them now.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
"Wait and see" is what we've been doing for decades.
You don't understand the urgency behind their motivations.
BLM completely dropped the ball attempting to ban anyone from attending Pride. It completely undermines them and sets them back. Hopefully they smarten up and realize the stupidity of this mistake and how bad it makes them look. There is no epidemic of police violence and murder against blacks in Canada. Yes there is the carding and some stereotypes that need to be addressed but BLM has to be careful because they are not even the minority group in Canada that has the most problems with the Police. They should really change it to Minority Lives Matter or something else that includes other groups.
excelsiorlef
Member
Christ they wanted a float ban. Just so that the Police as an institution doesnt get a float.
And once the low bar of hey they aren't murdering you, you should be grateful appears.
Their statement explicitly acknowledges first nations and other minorities too.
Not touching how close you got to saying All Lives Mattee there.
They want a ban at a Pride parade, I find it impossible that anyone with a lick of common sense can't see how fucking hypocritical that is. I didn't come close to anything, you think it's tough for blacks in Canada try being Native. They can protest and they have a point and hopefully there voice gets heard. That being said you start pushing for the exclusion of a specific group in Canada people are going to say fuck that and fuck you.
I understand the struggle, and how hostile the overwhelimg apathy coming from "progressive" canadians must feel.
The stats are clear that there is racial profiling, but to claim that black LGBT community members feel unsafe with the uniformed officers present at pride is a tough pill for me to swallow.
Gotdatmoney
Member
If this is how you feel that is fine. I can respect this. But this isn't a situation where everyone can win so I would sugarcoat it like I think it is. If the police are going to be given priority over the minority groups than its just business as usual.
Me personally. I expect business as usual so it doesn't bother me but the attempt to explain it away is not going to sway me. You can't have instituations with demonstratable bias act like everythin is cool while the minorities are continuously pushed to the back and play it off as "inclusiveness" .
Until we stop looking at institutions as something other than an organization that performs a service I dont see this changing as a group effort.
Yes I do, but it's misguided.
Wait and see for one year isn't really asking much after the police have at least started to look like they're apologetic for some of the things they've done to the community in the past. If they dont, you can now use that apology as ammo to show that the police are just about PR and not actually about doing anything. It would help with public perception towards the discrimination LGBT people face from police. If they actually do begin to show improvements, then you can now use that to continue discourse on how the police can further their progressive stance against LGBT people.
Barring them outright in this current climate doesnt really do much. Evidenced by how many people are against it, even those who traditionally dont like police and have been discriminated by them in the past.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's a parade float.
It's a country built on all people being equal, most countries could only dream of the Police having a float in a Pride parade or even having a parade without the cops abusing them. Talk about your Canadian problems, its fucking laughable
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think if you think black queer people have it easy literally anywhere in the world to the point you call it "fucking laughable" in the same post about people all being treated equally, you're out of your depth. Try listening to them.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Its a country built on the fucking decimation of its native people and their culture. Don't sugarcoat it.
What is so hard to understand? If you want support in your pledge for equality don't make demands taking equality away from someone else. I can't support any group that excludes anyone, I can say good luck and I hope things work out. I just can't get onboard. Banning anything from a Pride parade is fucking laughable and it the opposite of equality it goes against everything Pride stands for.
I'm not, maybe read what I posted, I am fully aware of the issues the Native community faces. I am also aware that I have never heard a Native person exclude anyone.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Oh I gave up a long time ago on that. This thread is purely ideological for me. There is nothing minorities can do to convince the general populace the country has racism. Nothing.
So when I speak in this thread I'm simply having an intelligent discussion on gaf because its fun. I don't believe this will lead to anything significant.
If you get angry about this it will consume you so easily. So I just simply conceded it's a pointless discussion at this period in time to try and have with people. But for those still trying. Mad respect.
When have they ever even had the oppourtunity to exclude anyone?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
A parade float isn't equality. That you can equate this to institutional oppression is fucking laughable.
You really don't seem to understand what the word equality means. Telling anyone or thing they can NOT have a float to show their support for Pride is not equality it's exclusion. If you can't see that there is really nothing more to say.
To be fair, this isn't a black and white issue. You can show support for something, but in practice commit to actions that demonstrate the opposite. Police in Toronto have generally been doing that.
Do you even know what Pride is about or what it represents? It's not 'everything everywhere should be allowed no matter what'. It's 'gay people are people.' It is deeply, virulently homophobic not to understand the difference between the two.
So a gay cop that is proud in an environment that is just recently becoming accepting should be banned from wearing his/her uniform to Pride. Fuck off with this nonsense, he has every right to be gay and proud and get other gay people in his/her profession to come together and have a float in the parade. Calling me homophobic is actually kind of amusing, we will just mark that up as ignorance since you don't know me. Since when does pride say everyone is welcome accept these people or people with this job?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You're being stubborn and not listening to the criticisms people are giving you. Isn't this what you're on BLM about?
If only you had this much passion for ending oppression as you do for a parade float.
Yeah, I'm the stubborn one, maybe the stubborn ones are the group backing this stupidity. As I said hopefully BLM realizes this demand is going to hurt them. People are going to ignore them and the real issue they are trying to shine light on because of this. They need to stop being stubborn and drop this point. No matter how you slice it they are calling for the exclusion of a group of people and that is not going to gain them any supporters. Fuck I would even support them if they had a list of officers that had complaints or some history and wanting them to not be at the parade. At least they would have some basis to not have them there, but just saying all police is really dumb.
indigo lily
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
People already ignore them and hate them. Why do you think they care what the public thinks?
Popularity contests have nothing to do with getting free. You very clearly have no understanding of their life experience or goals.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Like 10 posts ago you were talking about black people complaining about racism was a fucking joke.
Canadians didnt give a shit about minority issues before black lives matter. This isn't gonna turn them away because they never had any intention of listening.
No one one is out there trying to win you over. No one cares man. You can't be won.
How have they not been supporting the gay community? Are we talking about the black community and carding?
1. Carding is an issue that we have made huge strides in resolving, and it's just one is many issues TPS has, in my opinion
2. TPS puts a lot of time and effort reaching out to marginalized communities in the GTA
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/community/ccc.php
http://howwedoittps.com/
A lot of effort is put in on mending bridges and building up communities that are marginalized.
How do we measure all the good and bad and decide "not good enough to be celebrated"? When is it good enough, because it will never be perfect.
Oh so they don't want support of the general public? There goal is to only get support from other black people? You just talking nonsense now. The whole point of a protest is to be heard to get people onboard, to gain support.
What? Are you for real? You think Canadians didn't care about minority issues until BLM? You think all the work people do, continue to do, to improve the lives of minorities in our communities started what... a few months ago?
This is a good point, for this thread especially where people have basically forked into the LGBT side and the BLM side. Setting aside the police float issue for the moment, the other demands seemed pretty reasonable and I hope they can move the needle on those.
There may be some confusion about my point. I am fully aware of racism and the struggles of black people. The only thing I have issue with is the attempted ban of the police float. I meant its a Canadian issue to complain that the police have a float at pride. I fully agree with what BLM is trying to do. I just disagree with this one point and their method. I think it is a mistake and that the general public will turn against them.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Can you point me to a BLM website or Facebook page that says this? I think you have a really egocentric view of their goal.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I am saying Canadians didnt give a shit about minority issues at all, which as whole they dont. Black Lives Matter isnt going to turn people away from a cause they have no interest in participating in. Obviously I am not saying advocacy groups started last year. That would be ridiculous.
You kind of have to read the whole paragraph as one to understand my point. I do get how that might be a confusing sentence though.
BLM is basically just ignoring the apathetic and going straight for institutional change. I dont blame em. If people cared enough to actually want things solved this wouldnt be a discussion.
Please read the rest of my posts in this thread before replaying to one of my posts out of context. We pretty much have the exact same stance on this issue. I was talking about the police historically, not recently.
Are you serious, so BLM is not about awareness and equality the treatment of black people and other minority groups? They don't want to change the mind of the general public and stop racism? If they are not trying to educate the general public then I fully admit I haven't a clue what they are trying to do.
My whole point is in Canada a hardline stance is not going give you the best results. In the US there is an epidemic of violence and I support a hardline stance. Canada they need to be a little more subtle and a little more open. Don't call for ban's or come off as extreme, make sure they are more open about minorities. I think that is the best way to get support for the cause.
This point that no one in Canada cares, is going to be really insulting to a lot of people that would support you. Again it goes back to the hardline stance.
Who do you think comprises advocacy groups? Walks in their walks? Donates to their causes? Argues with their family about minorities at Thanksgiving? Provides stages and venues specifically for minorities? Just last week I went to a story telling event that happens monthly, this month was themed "diversity in Toronto".
A lot of these are small things, sure - but these small, supportive gestures are the backbone of a lot of our cities culture. Of our countries culture.
Saying Canadians don't care about minorities is crazy to me as a Canadian and as a minority.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Getting the support of the general public that's never done shit and never will do shit even after they say they will is a losing battle. If you gave a fuck about freeing people from oppression, you would already be doing so.
It's interesting how passionate you were in your posts before this about just how sure you were you understood their goals and motivations. As you were told from the start, try listening to others. You don't know them or know what's better for them better than they do.
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