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Bloodborne Producer: Targeting 30fps for "Game Design" purposes

I think when people say that 30 fps is better they shouldn't try to sugar coat it. In terms of visual fidelity, 30 fps is always better than 60 fps if you are taking about maximizing image quality. They should just say that. When they try to act like they could've managed 60 but chose 30 for whatever reason, they just sound like they make stupid decisions.

Even the most powerful hardware's raw image quality would benefit from 30 fps instead of 60. Gameplay is smoother at 60, image quality is higher at 30. You having to choose between apples and oranges.
 
Let's not forget this is an online game? Pretty sure they are going to shoot for the easiest target for the sake of stability

Not to mention they had had issues with performance in he past.

I hope their conservative approach pays off honestly
 
1080/30 is a reasonable goal and they haven't even guaranteed that they can hit that completely across he entire game.

1080/30 is a reasonable goal, even though target 30 should be the minimum.

This is From Software, though. As much as I love their games, tech wizards they are not. If they manage to get Bloodborne to a locked 30, I will be shocked.
 
1080/30 is a reasonable goal, even though target 30 should be the minimum.

This is From Software, though. As much as I love their games, tech wizards they are not. If they manage to get Bloodborne to a locked 30, I will be shocked.

Me too!

I wish them the best. Its not like they are the only devs struggling with Visual fidelity vs performance.

If you really want to guarantee the best performance its time to blow money on a mega PC. At least then you can brute force your way to 60fps
 
While I'd always rather take 60 fps than good graphics, this sounds fairly reasonable. He knows they'd have a lot of trouble getting it to 60 so they're settling for 30. Would be good if it was locked 30, though.
This is making me consider buying a gaming PC so I can play this at 60FPS.

You should wait until it's bundled with Demon's Souls.
 
That's in relation to the 60fps question. They could get it higher but currently they are only going for 30fps.
This is contrary to what we've read about earlier builds running WELL into the teens. Its apparent they are working to get the game to 30 solid and not trying to hit 60 but decided to nail 30, instead. That said, I hope TTF is stable. Evolution did an amazing job of buttery smooth framerate and TTF with DC. For 30fps, that is the lowest bar, IMO. No judder, no tearing, no frame drops, consistent TTF.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
I did. What was I supposed to learn?

The "30 FPS is best for action games" line was never said by the person being interviewed - they were apologetic about not being able to hit 60. The translator put their own spin on things and tried to frame it as a design choice.
 

StuBurns

Banned
1080/30 is a reasonable goal, even though target 30 should be the minimum.

This is From Software, though. As much as I love their games, tech wizards they are not. If they manage to get Bloodborne to a locked 30, I will be shocked.
I think people underestimate their technical competence. Dark Souls shipped half baked, that's no secret, and From themselves have voiced regret at it. And while Demon's Souls had some performance issues of its own, they were fairly modest, and it's actually a really nice looking PS3 game for the time it released, and with large, complex levels. I think it was fairly impressive really. Certainly Bloodborne is extremely good looking, and from what I'd read, even the alpha was running nice and smooth, which given it was a slideshow at E3, shows huge performance improvements over a short period, and with months still to spare.

A 'locked 30', wouldn't shock me at all. Sony knows this is the most important game they have, it can't shipped messy like Dark Souls did.
 
I think people underestimate their technical competence. Dark Souls shipped half baked, that's no secret, and From themselves have voiced regret at it. And while Demon's Souls had some performance issues of it's own, they were fairly modest, and it's actually a really nice looking PS3 game for the time it released, and with large, complex levels. I think it was fairly impressive really. Certainly Bloodborne is extremely good looking, and from what I'd read, even the alpha was running nice and smooth, which given it was a slideshow at E3, shows huge performance improvements over a short period, and with months still to spare.

A 'locked 30', wouldn't shock me at all. Sony knows this is the most important game they have, it can't shipped messy like Dark Souls did.

We can only hope but they seem to be on target so far.

Have people been weighing in on the most recent tests with regards to performance?
 

KoopaTheCasual

Junior Member
So you think good graphics and 60 fps are mutually exclusive?
Point to where I made such a ridiculous blanket statement?

No, I never said that. But in a world where a game is pushing the same deadline and working with the same budget, no, you can't just magically push more fps at the same fidelity/higher fidelity at the same framerate. Something's gotta give. Whether it be a year long delay, a serious infusion of development funding/aid, or (in this case, specifically) a hit to the framerate, you're not mystically going to make the game look prettier.

There's not an optimization 'switch' you can hit. These things kinda take time.
 

rjc571

Banned
Point to where I made such a ridiculous blanket statement?

No, I never said that. But in a world where a game is pushing the same deadline and working with the same budget, no, you can't just magically push more fps at the same fidelity/higher fidelity at the same framerate. Something's gotta give. Whether it be a year long delay, a serious infusion of development funding/aid, or (in this case, specifically) a hit to the framerate, you're not mystically going to make the game look prettier.

There's not an optimization 'switch' you can hit. These things kinda take time.

Where did I claim that? All I said was that it's possible to target 60 fps and still make a good looking game, which you seemed to disagree with.
 
Where did I claim that? All I said was that it's possible to target 60 fps and still make a good looking game, which you seemed to disagree with.

It totally is!

Its just more complicated than we like to give credit for. And since most of us are not developers and do not have inside knowledge of how From works internally and what specific challenges they face....

We should be accepting of the clear goal and scope that they have repeatedly set for their game.

Is there any concrete evidence that we should expect otherwise? I'm not sure where to take the discussion without some expert popping into the thread to lay it out for us
 

excaliburps

Press - MP1st.com
Hey all,

Some might know it and some might not, but I'm the Editor-in-Chief of PlayStation LifeStyle.

We've updated the post with a direct quote from Sony:

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net...st-for-action-games-claims-producer/#/slide/1

While it can be attributed to a translation error, my man on the showfloor (and fellow GAFfer) Gerard didn't do anything slimy or any of the sort. I stand by his original story (with the full interview coming up later in the week). And having that recorded (which we were asked to pull) helped a fair bit. ;)

Just chiming in since I've seen some "LOL gaemz joornlaist" click-bait accusations, which aren't warranted at all.
 

rjc571

Banned
It totally is!

Its just more complicated than we like to give credit for. And since most of us are not developers and do not have inside knowledge of how From works internally and what specific challenges they face....

We should be accepting of the clear goal and scope that they have repeatedly set for their game.

Is there any concrete evidence that we should expect otherwise? I'm not sure where to take the discussion without some expert popping into the thread to lay it out for us

Well some people might not be so accepting of 30 fps when they've been playing 60 fps games for their entire lives, like me.
 
Then you are lucky. Some people are so far gone that they cannot play a game if the framerate is bad.

Why aren't they exclusive PC gamers?

The convenience of playing on console will always be saddled with compromises. Even in this new generation.

Temper your expectations and you might actually find happiness in the few performance surprises we get here and there.

I think Naughty Dog is the only Dev setting the performance bar on PS4.
 
I don't really care about frame rate all that much... but why can't developers just be honest about it? Instead of pretending it is a choice, most reasonable people would understand if they said "Yeah, we tried but we just couldn't hit 60 FPS."
 

StuBurns

Banned
Where did I claim that? All I said was that it's possible to target 60 fps and still make a good looking game, which you seemed to disagree with.
No, you said 'insanely' good. Which implies some sort of extraordinary visuals.

60fps is hugely harder than 30fps. Not only are you literally drawing double the frames, you're also polling the simulation at twice the speed. The whole game simulation needs to run at double the speed, you have 16ms from input to output, all AI, all physics, everything needs to be twice as quick.

It's far from the 'double the framerate/half the resolution' meme that goes around (those posts seem only considering of fillrate demands). However good you think Bloodborne looks, it would not look even nearly as good at 60fps.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
The 1080p/60fps for the PS4 illusion is starting to crumble really bad now.

What illusion is that? 1080p, sure (and the game does hit that), but anyone who expected 60fps to become the standard on any console ever is delusional. With a fixed amount of resources you can always choose to push visual complexity over framerate, and that's what many/most devs do. You can't have the best of both worlds, pushing one of these aspects means making sacrifices in the other.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Well some people might not be so accepting of 30 fps when they've been playing 60 fps games for their entire lives, like me.

Sounds like you don't play console games, which makes me wonder why you're even bothering posting in the thread for a Sony game.
 

Mathaou

legacy of cane
Why aren't they exclusive PC gamers?

The convenience of playing on console will always be saddled with compromises. Even in this new generation.

Temper your expectations and you might actually find happiness in the few performance surprises we get here and there.

I think Naughty Dog is the only Dev setting the performance bar on PS4.

Most of them originated as console gamers, and migrated to PC because of their affliction.
 

rjc571

Banned
No, you said 'insanely' good. Which implies some sort of extraordinary visuals.

60fps is hugely harder than 30fps. Not only are you literally drawing double the frames, you're also polling the simulation at twice the speed. The whole game simulation needs to run at double the speed, you have 16ms from input to output, all AI, all physics, everything needs to be twice as quick.

It's far from the 'double the framerate/half the resolution' meme that goes around (those posts seem only considering of fillrate demands). However good you think Bloodborne looks, it would not look even nearly as good at 60fps.

You don't think this looks "insanely good"? Never mind that it's running at 60 fps on LAST GEN HARDWARE!
XI6PnUw.jpg

SVE7Klp.jpg

If developers made targeting 60 fps a priority like Nintendo does, they can achieve similarly eye-popping results.

Sounds like you don't play console games, which makes me wonder why you're even bothering posting in the thread for a Sony game.

Did you start gaming with the PS3 and Xbox 360? There are literally thousands of 60 fps games available on other consoles.
 

StuBurns

Banned
You don't think this looks "insanely good"? Never mind that it's running at 60 fps on LAST GEN HARDWARE!
http://i.imgur.com/XI6PnUw.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/SVE7Klp.jpg[IMG]
If developers made targeting 60 fps a priority like Nintendo does, they can achieve similarly eye-popping results.[/QUOTE]
No, I certainly do not. And no, the Wii U is not 'last-gen'.
 
You don't think this looks "insanely good"? Never mind that it's running at 60 fps on LAST GEN HARDWARE!
XI6PnUw.jpg

SVE7Klp.jpg

If developers made targeting 60 fps a priority like Nintendo does, they can achieve similarly eye-popping results.

Apples and oranges man

You have to consider the experience, time, tools used, resources available, scope of the game etc.

Can't paint with broad strokes on this one man!
 
You don't think this looks "insanely good"? Never mind that it's running at 60 fps on LAST GEN HARDWARE!
XI6PnUw.jpg

SVE7Klp.jpg

If developers made targeting 60 fps a priority like Nintendo does, they can achieve similarly eye-popping results.

Now we're arguing aesthetics vs graphics? Yeah, those games look good aesthetically, but from a technical/graphical standpoint, they're relatively simple. If From wanted Bloodborne to look like a cartoon, then sure, they could get 60 FPS. The bottom line is, FromSoft is unable to achieve >30 FPS with the visual fidelity they want in Bloodborne. Like it or hate it, that's just how it is.
 

rjc571

Banned
Now we're arguing aesthetics vs graphics? Yeah, those games look good aesthetically, but from a technical/graphical standpoint, they're extremely simple. If From wanted Bloodborne to look like a cartoon, then sure, they could get 60 FPS. The bottom line is, FromSoft is unable to achieve >30 FPS with the visual fidelity they want in Bloodborne. Like it or hate it, that's just how it is.

What's the point of having advanced technical graphics if they don't result in attractive aesthetics? And need I remind you that Captain Toad is running on (effectively) last gen hardware? The PS4 hs more than enough power to reach that level of fidelity at 60 fps in large environments.
 

StuBurns

Banned
What's the point of having advanced technical graphics if they don't result in attractive aesthetics? And need I remind you that Captain Toad is running on (effectively) last gen hardware? The PS4 hs more than enough power to reach that level of fidelity at 60 fps in large environments.
Maybe your tastes don't equate to a universal definition of what is and isn't attractive.
 
What's the point of having advanced technical graphics if they don't result in attractive aesthetics? And need I remind you that Captain Toad is running on (effectively) last gen hardware? The PS4 hs more than enough power to reach that level of fidelity at 60 fps in large environments.

You are going to have to find a better comparison than Captain Toad. The scope is vastly different between the two.

Not trying to downplay Nintendo's achievements though. They have clearly found a very efficient way to build their games and allow them to shine.
 
What's the point of having advanced technical graphics if they don't result in attractive aesthetics? And need I remind you that Captain Toad is running on (effectively) last gen hardware? The PS4 hs more than enough power to reach that level of fidelity at 60 fps in large environments.

Are you... comparing Captain Toad's graphics to Bloodborne's? I don't want Bloodborne to look like Captain Toad. Am I getting trolled here?
 

rjc571

Banned
Maybe your tastes don't equate to a universal definition of what is and isn't attractive.

And neither do yours. Good thing this is a public forum where we're free to share our non-universally agreed upon opinions.

Are you... comparing Captain Toad's graphics to Bloodborne's? I don't want Bloodborne to look like Captain Toad. Am I getting trolled here?

We're discussing whether it's possible for games to look good running at 60 fps. The discussion isn't centered on Bloodborne.

Would you be more satisfied with Uncharted PS4, confirmed to be running at 60 fps in real time?

iih8xQe.png
 
Would you be more satisfied with Uncharted PS4, confirmed to be running at 60 fps in real time?

iih8xQe.png

I'd be more satisfied with a game that's actually released. Anyway, you pretty clearly don't understand the difference in aesthetics and graphics so I'm done with this conversation. To me, Bloodborne looks great aesthetically, and graphically it's impressive. It's From's decision to not compromise those graphics for framerate. You're going to have to deal with it and/or move on. Comparing it to WiiU games in any way is absurd.
 

Servbot24

Banned
We're discussing whether it's possible for games to look good running at 60 fps. The discussion isn't centered on Bloodborne.

Would you be more satisfied with Uncharted PS4, confirmed to be running at 60 fps in real time?

iih8xQe.png

That's Naughty Dog, possibly the most technically efficient studio in gaming. Of course their game looks better.

Honestly if you know so much about how to get games running like Uncharted 4 then why aren't you working at ND? You clearly know a lot about how to code games on PS4.
 

jpax

Member
It is if the core concept of the action game you're playing requires other technical elements that make a locked 60 impossible to achieve.

Bloodborne is using a very different, likely much broader, world scope than previous Souls games. Why is it a surprise that this comes at the cost of frame rate?

60 fps is a bullet point and nothing more in most instances. Some games run at 60 and that enhances the quality of the experience. Other games run at 60 and still suck. Some games run at a locked 30 and feel much better than a variable 60, others run at a locked 30 and feel sluggish. Good game design is meant to account for this. If you are making a confined space fast paced action game or a PvP focused fighter it is worth prioritizing 60 fps as a general rule, but for most games that simply isn't the case.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned with a studio shooting for 60 and missing than the studio shooting for a locked 30 from day one. If you go for 60 and miss all of your animations, combat timing, etc. was built around a shorter response window and will likely feel rather janky. Accepting hardware limitations from day one, assigning the resources available judiciously, and living with 30 fps as a result leads to the game being built around preventing that fact from being a limiting factor to enjoy the game.

You should be ashamed posting such nonsense.

Just say: "hey we cannot achieve 60fps for that title because the graphical fidelity gamers want and the limitations of the chosen platform will not allow for it. We did our best to give you a stable 30fps."
Nobody would even argue with a statement like that, but stop spreading such idiotic excuses.
 

Arttemis

Member
You don't think this looks "insanely good"? Never mind that it's running at 60 fps on LAST GEN HARDWARE!
SVE7Klp.jpg

If developers made targeting 60 fps a priority like Nintendo does, they can achieve similarly eye-popping results.

Holy shit, this is considered 'similarly eye popping results' to Bloodborne? No!


Just no!

Furthermore, this thread is hardly the place to argue the merits of Nintendo's design vs. Sony/From's.
 

Daviii

Member
I think the bloodbourne producer has clearly given his opinion on the matter. They basically say... "ok, we cannot make our game run at 60fps sorry guys"

Surprised that this thread keeps rolling... I find PS4 not being powerful enough a very legit reason.
 

StuBurns

Banned
And neither do yours. Good thing this is a public forum where we're free to share our non-universally agreed upon opinions.
That's completely missing the point. You asked what the point in graphical technology is if it doesn't result in pleasing aesthetics, but it's a faulty premise, because it's not a fact.

To use a Nintendo example, I actually think SMW, and especially Yoshi's Island, both look massively better than NSMBU. That's an example of hugely superior hardware, and development tools, resulting in a far less appealing aesthetic for me. There are good reasons for this, Nintendo moved from rasters to vectors, and for whatever reason, when I see them, I have different emotional responses to them, one I enjoy, the other I don't. But the important thing is that this was a choice, not a hardware implication. Nintendo didn't have to change, they choose to. Better technology was never a limiting factor.

Now when attempting to make a game that evokes reality, I have never had a similar experience. I don't see PS1's swimming textures or N64's blurry textures as more evocative, or charming or whatever.

So, for Bloodborne...

Put simply, this:


Is just hugely more evocative than this is:


And when DemonBorne or whatever comes to PS5, it's going to be much better still.

When striving for realism, graphics technology hugely improves the aesthetic I think. Maybe we start really seeing diminishing returns in the next twenty years, but until we somehow achieve infinite local compute processing, there will always be compromises to make, and developers that want realistic visuals are always going to favor graphics over performance.
 
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