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[Durante]

The argument of "b-b-but some good games might not make it on" is bullshit. If you can't spot what is a legitimate attempt vs some edgelord cash/mindshare grab, you've got problems.

Which store with curation does strike the right balance?
As long as it doesn't exist, I find it hard to just accept that it being easily possible is a fact.

Especially since e.g. GoG (which would be a nice platform to me because of other concerns, including DRM) is ruined by what I consider overzealous curation.

Anyway, I made an argument a few pages back that no one has as of yet replied to:

The fact that there is some kind of expectation in games for our content providers to also serve as content quality filters among some is the aberration here, compared to any other entertainment medium.

Is Amazon hugely problematic because it allows me to order pretty much any book that has an ISBN and is available, including far more hateful and horrible shit than anything on Steam? What about the book store a few streets away from me which has more or less the same policy?

Why -- other than a history of much of gaming being controlled by a few companies who want to maintain a family-friendly image -- do we expect game distribution services to curate the "quality" of the products they offer, when we do not have the same expectations for books (or films for that matter)?

 

[Primethius]

They did that and didnt allow Visual Novels on Steam.

They said a game like Stardew Valley wouldnt be on Steam when their curation was still alive.

They didnt allow Oil Blue on Steam.

Stuff like Shmups wouldnt be on Steam.

So our only options are:

Shit curation

Or

No curation

Oh man, I really feel for these big billion dollar companies being forced to choose between two difficult options like that.

 

[GhostTrick]

I find it bizarre that a real human cant tell the difference between an actual decent game and shovelware garbage.
Like it's obvious Stardew isn't Bad Rats.

You already have exemple of this. Of course it's easy to see the difference between Bad Rats and Stardew Valley. But it doesn't mean the person curating would see Stardew Valley as a good or legitimate game.

So our only options are:

Shit curation

Or

No curation

Oh man, I really feel for these big billion dollar companies being forced to choose between two difficult options like that.

Said no one ever; But yeah it's pretty weird that you need a big billion dollar company to chose for you what is suitable to your tastes or not.

 

[patapuf]

Valve needs to employ some actual humans to curate their shit. I hate this techno-libertarian philosophy of "we take zero responsibility for what appears in our store".

I don't understand the belief in human curation for game stores. Every single curated store blocks a whole swath of good games (or even entire genres) from appearing on the store.

PSN, XBL, GOG, Origin, ect. don't hold a candle on the variety that's on steam. If that means there's also plenty shitty games so be it.

Most of these "concerns" i see for steam curation seem purely philosophical. Which of these curated stores have ultimately a better selection and variety of games than steam?

I guess, i just don't see the worth of steam being a "special" place to be.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

and it's not there anymore, at least in mine, and everyone else's, tab

makes me wonder if it has something to do with your history

Holy shit, are you for real?


These kind of shit games shouldn't be on Steam, full stop. There's no reason to defend it.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

So our only options are:

Shit curation

Or

No curation

Oh man, I really feel for these big billion dollar companies being forced to choose between two difficult options like that.

They tried curation through Greenlight. That didnt help at all.

 

[MUnited83]

So our only options are:

Shit curation

Or

No curation

Oh man, I really feel for these big billion dollar companies being forced to choose between two difficult options like that.

I mean, factually those are indeed the options. There isn't a middle ground. "Good" curation doesn't exist.

I prefer not having a bunch of dumbasses choosing what I should or should not play though, so no curation is infinitely more consumer-friendly.

 

[NeonBlack]

I find it bizarre that a real human cant tell the difference between an actual decent game and shovelware garbage.
Like it's obvious Stardew isn't Bad Rats.

I wouldn't have touch Undertale with a 10 foot pole if it wasn't for all the streamers recommending it. I don't know if a game with that aesthetic would have made it in.

 

[Primethius]

You already have exemple of this. Of course it's easy to see the difference between Bad Rats and Stardew Valley. But it doesn't mean the person curating would see Stardew Valley as a good or legitimate game.






Said no one ever; But yeah it's pretty weird that you need a big billion dollar company to chose for you what is suitable to your tastes or not.

They aren't choosing for my tastes though? They curating out the garbage.

I mean, factually those are indeed the options. There isn't a middle ground. "Good" curation doesn't exist.

I prefer not having a bunch of dumbasses choosing what I should or should not play though, so no curation is infinitely more consumer-friendly.

"Factually"

Lol ok

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I wouldn't have touch Undertale with a 10 foot pole if it wasn't for all the streamers recommending it. I don't know if a game with that aesthetic would have made it in.

It wouldnt. During Curation Daedalic couldnt put their games on Steam, because the curator at Steam didnt like Point and Click games...

 

[luulubuu]

I wouldn't have touch Undertale with a 10 foot pole if it wasn't for all the streamers recommending it. I don't know if a game with that aesthetic would have made it in.

Why

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Why

Because during curation mostly only AAA games and a few Indies who already made a name on Xbox Live got a chance to be on Steam.

 

[MUnited83]

They aren't choosing for my tastes though? They curating out the garbage.



"Factually"

Lol ok

Yes, factually.


Do feel to free to point out a curated store that hasn't blocked good games from appearing on it though, i'll be waiting.

 

[Ascheroth]

A very far off that % don't you think, and the tag problem has been already discussed in other posts

No, I don't think I'm far off with that %. I literally only hear about those games from NeoGAF threads.

They aren't choosing for my tastes though? They curating out the garbage.

"Garbage" is subjective.
Like, how often does this need to be said. Valve themselves have said that Stardew Valley wouldn't haven gotten on Steam if they curated.
GoG refuses lots of legit games because they "don't think they're a good fit for their platform".

You are free to use one of the other platforms that do "Weed out the garbage." There are a lot of them.

 

[bugulu]

The vast majority of people that kill other people are not serial murders, or people with serial murder characteristics, so not quite sure how that really applies.
it seems to me that not all people that commit murder are emotionally balanced and free of emotional baggage or substance abuses, so if one group is susceptible to influence due to those issues, why shouldn't the other, and ofc if we are taking the lack of evidence on a link between video game violence and real violence (which is fair) why can't we also do the same for suicides and video games.

In the end I really see no reason why video games that are essentially about killing people should be allowed to stay (which I think they should), while video games about suicide can't (which this one isn't but let us pretend it is).
The idea of video games influencing people into any kind of death is the sort of extraordinary claim that I believe requires extraordinary proof before we should do anything about it.

I used the serial murderer view as that's one of the most studied scientific fields. Yes, most people that kill others aren't serial murderers, the majority of them tend to be heat of passion attributed to domestic problems.

You're right, there are no evidence linking games with its main gameplay being about suicide, to actual suicides committed. But is that really surprising? How many games actually promote suicides? This is the very first time I hear about something akin to this.

As I said, there's plenty of evidence linking media exposure in regards of suicides to actual suicides. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to believe that the same logic also applies to video games, despite there being no studies about it.

 

[Kayant]

The thing is curation doesn't stop garbage from getting through once in a while and is a slippery slope in what companies will decide to curate.

It also doesn't mean you still wouldn't be making choices on what things you want to buy. There is why we all have different preferences.

Garbage like this will only sell to the audience that are interested in it. It's not like millions of people will suddenly buy it because it's on a popular platform like Steam.

The perfect solution I see is arming the user with tools to decide what content they want because ultimately it's down to the user to decide whether they want a piece of content curated or not.

Edit -

Point being there is no perfect curation because the content being released far outweighs the amount of humans that would be needed to process these things plus the fact that people will be making choices on your behalf.

 

[luulubuu]

Yes, factually.


Do feel to free to point out a curated store that hasn't blocked good games from appearing on it though, i'll be waiting.

Itch.io?

 

[NeonBlack]

Why

Looking at screenshots of Undertale doesn't exactly scream out quality to me. Who's to say the curator would see it differently?

 

[UpUpDownDown]

Holy shit, are you for real?


These kind of shit games shouldn't be on Steam, full stop. There's no reason to defend it.

Kinda sick watching this thread blame the OP for finding these games.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

I watched a SidAlpha video about Valve tightening up key generation for asset flip games.

Couldn't Valve strangle the market behind the scenes, therefore not making it profitable for these guys to put up these games in the first place?

 

[Ascheroth]

Itch.io?

So? You could argue that they should make that button more prominent.

 

[aravuus]

They aren't choosing for my tastes though? They curating out the garbage.

Stardew Valley is garbage

 

[luulubuu]

Looking at screenshots of Undertale doesn't exactly scream out quality to me. Who's to say the curator would see it differently?

Well, bad for you I guess, I do think a crowdfunded game that has no controversial shit on it would had made it in what draconian out of place curation process you have in mind

 

[themagicalkitsune]

I check the new releases and the first one I see is this thrash

You're thinking of Suicidal Tendencies

 

[luulubuu]

So?

So go and read what I'm replying to and what I had posted before going for the low hanging fruit.

 

[benicillin]

Another day, another example of Valve being unwilling to do literally anything to manage their platform and have people defend them for it.

 

[AColdDay]

Lol anytime someone complains about the steam store you see all these people coming out with the purity tests.

"This is what mine looks like."

"How did you get there, provide me with a video walkthrough showing me how you got there."

"Why would you ever look at it that way"

 

[old manatee]

and it's not there anymore, at least in mine, and everyone else's, tab

makes me wonder if it has something to do with your history

Amazing post, Colombo. Keep up the good work.

 

[sheaaaa]

Well, bad for you I guess, I do think a crowdfunded game that has no controversial shit on it would had made it in what draconian out of place curation process you have in mind

You're ignoring the fact that when Steam had curation, plenty of games just like Undertale were rejected for opaque reasons. Like someone has said, Stardew Valley wouldn't have made it on the platform.

 

[Hektor]

Does it offer real hardcore sex scenes?

Softcore is ok on Steam.

I'd say so, I mean in one scene you can literally squirt on another girl's face

 

[luulubuu]

I watched a SidAlpha video about Valve tightening up key generation for asset flip games.

Couldn't Valve strangle the market behind the scenes, therefore not making it profitable for these guys to put up these games in the first place?

Now that could do it. Making it harsh or difficult to appear for some users + dont making profit will turn down some makers

 

[VibratingDonkey]

I wouldn't mind if games like this didn't exist on Steam, might even be preferable if that was the case, less trash is rarely a bad thing. And the notion of the developer (and Valve) making any amount of money off of it is offputting. But if its existence doesn't obscure worthwhile games, if it's trash thrown into the dump of New Releases, it effectively doesn't exist for the average user. This thread is probably the most exposure it will ever get. Except for in whatever region OP is in apparently. That shouldn't happen. This game should only appear on people's storefronts if they've actively expressed an interest in worthless trash.

I'm ok with this existing, because it's not that far off from not existing, is basically my position.
Surely there is a line where a game just straight up shouldn't be given a platform, but watching the video on the store page, this looks like garbage by a lazy asshole who couldn't be bothered finish making an actual game, rather than something properly vile.
Instead of having objectives, a story, enemies, a challenge, a point, a message or anything at all, the task given to the player is to achieve standard death states like falling off a thing or drowning, respawn and stare at loading screens, rinse and repeat. This is a basic component of any game ever, and something you would want to avoid. Because it's actively boring. But slap "Simulator" on there and edgily say your banal, pointless trash game is about suicide, and maybe you'll manage to trick some idiot into giving you money.

One of my favorite games ever is a game made on RPG Maker by a single dev where you and your sister are kids abused by your father, for which she commits suicide. Fast forward and you're a dude who finds a baby girl and proceeds to drop her on her head. You take care of her til she's a teenager, moment in which your mates kidnap her to presumably rape her, because, what you know, all women have vanished at some point. One of the first things you do in your quest to find her is set a bunch of innocent kids on fire.

Would this game have made the cut elsewhere than Steam? Suffice to say I don't want anyone deciding for me what I should or shouldn't play.

I'm not a sick person. The game is called LISA RPG and has gained a big following, including threads in GAF such as this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1097544

I'm sorry you had to see sth called "Suicide Simulator" on the Internet. I'm sure that was prominantly featured and that it ruined your entire day more than anything else you've ever come across by accident. You should probably just stay away from the Steam website, and the Internet as a whole, and just browse PSN where you'll only find the stuff others want you to see and play based purely on public decency and quality, such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=uM523jjrvf4

The problem with this game isn't that it's dealing with suicide, it's that it's thoughtless trash exploiting a controversial topic for attention because the developer is a lazy incompetent hack incapable of attaining any through making a good game.

Comparing it to an actual good game dealing with mature themes by a talented developer is just wrong.

 

[GhostTrick]

They aren't choosing for my tastes though? They curating out the garbage.

Eh yes, they are and have been historically. You think a game like Undertale would've been possible ? You can bet it would've been refused for being a crappy RPG Maker looking game.

Heck, it's not like self publishing for indies is a new thing from this generation. And that even then, some devs have been refused dev kits.

 

[Ascheroth]

So go and read what I'm replying to and what I had posted before going for the low hanging fruit.

Yeah, I mixed that up with some other posts, my bad. Thread is moving too fast.

 

[UltraJay]

So? You could argue that they should make that button more prominent.

There we go. Why keep complaining in this thread where nothing will be done and instead report the game for what you believe to be offensive content?

 

[Primethius]

Yes, factually.


Do feel to free to point out a curated store that hasn't blocked good games from appearing on it though, i'll be waiting.

When that becomes my argument, I'll be sure to get back to you.

 

[luulubuu]

You're ignoring the fact that when Steam had curation, plenty of games just like Undertale were rejected for opaque reasons. Like someone has said, Stardew Valley wouldn't have made it on the platform.

Yo, okay? That's in the past I'm not saying any of this, my concerns are about problematic games like rapelay or stuff like that, not "quality" I do think we can agree that we all have different tastes but a company like Valve wouldn't risk with a game with groping or rape. Is not that hard, I'm saying that for pages now.

 

[MUnited83]

Itch.io?

I think you posted the wrong image, because that's merely a report button, a report button that exists in the same exact capacity on Steam

And, you know, if you actually fucking used itch.io at all you would know there isn't curation LMAO

Next time try to actually use it instead of thinking a report button means anything?

Like around 20 seconds of searching

Suicide Simulator ( https://ayame9joe.itch.io/suicide-simulator )
Here's a Fruit Ninja clone where YOU BEHEAD PEOPLE AS A ISIS SOLDIER ( https://scardygames.itch.io/isis-ninja )

 

[Primethius]

Eh yes, they are and have been historically. You think a game like Undertale would've been possible ? You can bet it would've been refused for being a crappy RPG Maker looking game.

Heck, it's not like self publishing for indies is a new thing from this generation. And that even then, some devs have been refused dev kits.

I'm not really sure how me advocating for better and minimal curation prevents Undertale from being on the platform or how past curation prevents better future curation.

That's not an argument against curation at all. That's an argument against shit curation.

 

[GhostTrick]

When that becomes my argument, I'll be sure to get back to you.

They aren't choosing for my tastes though? They curating out the garbage.

This is exactly your point. If you believe they are only curating the garbage, good luck lol.

I'm not really sure how me advocating for better and minimal curation prevents Undertale from being on the platform or how past curation prevents better future curation.

That's not an argument against curation at all. That's an argument against shit curation.

Because, then again, it's easy to claim "easy curation is to prevent this game from happening here". Although it's more difficult to claim where it does extend. Take this game for exemple:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/597220/West_of_Loathing/

It looks like garbage. If I was curating, I would've refused it. Although, looking at reviews now...
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/west-of-loathing

Yup. It seems to be actually a great game.

From the header, to the screenshots, it looked like a shitty shovelware game with no place here. You can bet if it was curated, this would've never released here.


And you know what ? I'm betting that everyone in this thread would've claimed the same before getting actual opinions on the game.

 

[UltraJay]

Yo, okay? That's in the past I'm not saying any of this, my concerns are about problematic games like rapelay or stuff like that, not "quality" I do think we are can agree that we all have different tastes but a company like Valve wouldn't risk with a game with groping or rape. Is not that hard, I'm saying that for pages now.

Games "like rapelay" are not allowed on Steam, and if they get through you can report them.

How did the argument get here? Pornography is not allowed on Steam, and softcore stuff isn't allowed without age-gates in place.

 

[Dusk Golem]

Itch.io?

While I love itch.io and support it (buy amd release games there myself), it currently is not a big storefront. Most sold games will only sell 1-20 copies there, some may break 100 and 200 sales is a surprising breakthrough (basing this by talking in itch.io communities, developers, personal stats, and the like). The userbase on itch.io isn't huge for now, and the people it attracts are mostly enthusiasts. Itch.io can probably handle that due to the low audience and supportive community, but with a behemoth like Steam it might be a mess between trolls reporting game pages for the lolz or a developer they don't like, movements of negative review bombing to move towards mass reporting a Steam Store Page, and the likely result would be more hate groups using it than legitmate customers. That's just what I theorize, I could be wrong, but for better or worse there's groups already established to trash things, and with Steam having millions of users as it is...

Also Steam does have a report button on Steam Store pages, but its function is a bit different. But itch.io is an open market as it were, so it isn't curated either and actually is similar to Steam in that regard.

I'm curious how the upcoming Steam Explorer and Curator upgrades are handled, plus the Steam store revamp will be handled, though.

 

[c0Zm1c]

Itch.io?

From Itch:

There are no restrictions for the kind of content you can host on itch.io (assuming it’s legal).

Much like Steam, they don't have the kind of curation you're seeking.

 

[luulubuu]

"lmao"

Nah, I posted the correct image, you asked for a "curated store that hasnt blocked any games" I posted a page that hasn't blcoked a game and has also a report button to curate the content on it that it works or not or the community doesn't care is another thing that you didn't include in your "request"

Moving on.

 

[sheaaaa]

Yo, okay? That's in the past I'm not saying any of this, my concerns are about problematic games like rapelay or stuff like that, not "quality" I do think we can agree that we all have different tastes but a company like Valve wouldn't risk with a game with groping or rape. Is not that hard, I'm saying that for pages now.

You literally just said this:

Well, bad for you I guess, I do think a crowdfunded game that has no controversial shit on it would had made it in what draconian out of place curation process you have in mind

Talking about Undertale, not about problematic games. The problem is what you consider draconian someone else (literally Valve themselves) may consider normal and therefore legitimate good games get rejected.

Suicide Simulator looks terrible because it's a shit game and not because the concept is inherently terrible. Treated with sensitivity and thought, it could be a meaningful way to approach the topic. What you're suggesting closes off that door completely.

I'm not really sure how me advocating for better and minimal curation prevents Undertale from being on the platform or how past curation prevents better future curation.

That's not an argument against curation at all. That's an argument against shit curation.

Any curation is somebody's shit curation.

 

[MUnited83]

When that becomes my argument, I'll be sure to get back to you.

But it is the argument. Curation inevitably blocks good games. This is a undeniable fact.

Nah, I posted the correct image, you asked for a "curated store that hasnt blocked any games" I posted a page that hasn't blcoked a game and has also a report button to curate the content on it that it works or not or the community doesn't care is another thing that you didn't include in your "request"

Moving on.

?
It isn't a curated store. Steam also has a report button.

Man your research skills really aren't great are they.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Nah, I posted the correct image, you asked for a "curated store that hasnt blocked any games" I posted a page that hasn't blcoked a game and has also a report button to curate the content on it that it works or not or the community doesn't care is another thing that you didn't include in your "request"

Moving on.

Steam has the exact same thing.

 

[luulubuu]

Also Steam does have a report button on Steam Store pages, but its function is a bit different. But itch.io is an open market as it were, so it isn't curated either and actually is similar to Steam in that regard.

I'm curious how the upcoming Steam Explorer and Curator upgrades are handled, plus the Steam store revamp will be handled, though.

Don't know why you point that out when I had aknowledge it already several times.

From Itch:

Much like Steam, they don't have the kind of curation you're seeking.

What curation I'm seeking again? Because it looks like you got it mixed.

You literally just said this:

Talking about Undertale, not about problematic games. The problem is what you consider draconian someone else (literally Valve themselves) may consider normal and therefore legitimate good games get rejected.

Suicide Simulator looks terrible because it's a shit game and not because the concept is inherently terrible. Treated with sensitivity and thought, it could be a meaningful way to approach the topic. What you're suggesting closes off that door completely.

As users, we could change that if we proclaim concerns about this, they changed once right?

Snip

As I stated several times, curation could be great if it comes after the game is published and let people know if they wanted it or not, that's why the steam report button which appears to be invisible when I talk about it exists.

I had largely explain how that, a mix of greenlight and community based post curation or profile based store could make everyone happy, I already said it several times and in better and larger sentences

 

[luulubuu]

sorry double post

 

[sheaaaa]

Don't know why you point that out when I had aknowledge it already several times.



What curation I'm seeking again? Because it looks like you got it mixed.

So what was your actual point in bringing up itch.io given it seems to operate in exactly the same way Steam operates?

As users, we could change that if we proclaim concerns about this, they changed once right?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.