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[Not]

"Where does it stop," indeed.

It stops without six million Jews being murdered, broseph.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Yes. Totally agree. But I'm not arguing those people aren't horrible. I'm saying the Constitution gives every citizen a right to protest peacefully, and having a hateful message isn't the same thing as wanting to incite a race war.

The people who want to incite violence shouldn't be allowed to protest their hateful message. But as difficult as it is to accept, if somebody wants to peacefully protest racism, awful ideals it is their lawful right. Taking that right away doesn't solve the problem of racism, it would just rile up even more hate filled people to speak out and it would weaken the entirety of our Constitution. If we stay stripping away rights from people we don't like - and any decent person should adamantly abhor Nazi's and White Supremacists - where does it stop?

"Where does it stop?"

These Nazi's haven't went through anything compared to what people went through with civil rights. Yeah, let's show them where it has stopped Constitution style.

 

[East Lake]

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/16/mar...cal-9-mlk-quotes-the-media-wont-cite_partner/

That seems like a fair statement, but also doesn't seem to be related to free speech policy.

 

[MikeyB]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

 

[PudieRSC]

Didn't you say there's nothing wrong with "simply being a nazi" in the Charlottesville thread

Think it's pretty clear where you stand

Actually I said I don't agree with going up and beating the shit out of someone simply for being a Nazi. I don't think violence helps or solves anything.

That, or the people arguing for free speech, doesn't make us a Nazi sympathizer.

If you want to debate the limits of speech and protest by all means lets have it, but we're on the same side at the end of the day. We just have different ideas of how we want to accomplish our goals.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Oh come the fuck on.

I get this is an emotional conversation, but calling those that are arguing for free speech Nazi sympathizers is just fucking ridiculous.

If you stand by a Nazi and ally with a Nazi you're not arguing for your damn freeze peach. You're aligning with the instigators of the worst part of human history. If they think they're arguing for anything else it's their own fault for being too damn stupid to work out who the hell they just allied themselves with.

Actually I said I don't agree with going up and beating the shit out of someone simply for being a Nazi. I don't think violence helps or solves anything.

That, or the people arguing for free speech, doesn't make us a Nazi sympathizer.

If you want to debate the limits of speech and protest by all means lets have it, but we're on the same side at the end of the day. We just have different ideas of how we want to accomplish our goals.

Ally with a Nazi and you're a Nazi sympathizer. Cut and dry.

 

[LotusHD]

Actually I said I don't agree with going up and beating the shit out of someone simply for being a Nazi. I don't think violence helps or solves anything.

That, or the people arguing for free speech, doesn't make us a Nazi sympathizer.

Sure helped beat the Nazis that one time...

 

[Crayons]

Because every single person there is a nazi? Because every single person there specifically want to incitie violence and get into a race war?

I vehemently disagree with every single person who was protesting (re:not including the brave counter protesters) in Charlottesville, but not all of them were Nazi's. Many of them were stupidly protesting the taking down of a monument. Now, what they were protesting is racist, full stop, but they weren't literally there hoping a huge fight would break out.

Besides, a person self identifying as a Nazi, Neo-Nazi, Nazi sympathizer, doesn't automatically mean their goal as an individual is to incite violence. This is why we can't just generalize these protest. We can all agree these people are hateful, horrible people, but we can't assume some idiot 20 something year old ignorantly protesting some vague idea of keeping America white is the same as somebody who is there trying to start a riot.

People are individuals. We have to treat them as such.

you are a nazi sympathizer

 

[Slayven]

That seems like a fair statement, but also doesn't seem to be related to free speech policy.

doesn't? When face with clear and present evil, try to protect it because actually acknowledging the equality of marginalized people would be such a disruption to so many people.

"These people want to kill minorities"

"But free speech"

 

[excelsiorlef]

That seems like a fair statement, but also doesn't seem to be related to free speech policy.

MLK also wasn't exactly in a position where people would want to hear about how the KKK should be illegal.

 

[~Kinggi~]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

i think people like you should be forced to sit in a chair with their eyelids open clockwork orange style and watch hours of holocaust footage and interviews. You see back then, they didnt 'lose the plot' like yourself, they knew the only good Nazi was a dead Nazi. 'kay?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

What about the rights of people attacked and killed by Nazis

 

[excelsiorlef]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

If you sincerely feel the need to let everyone know that Nazis are people too... you've lost the damn plot

 

[joe2187]

doesn't? When face with clear and present evil, try to protect it because actually acknowledging the equality of marginalized people would be such a disruption to so many people.

"These people want to kill minorities"

"But free speech"

Listen, I dont agree with you about what you say! But I will defend to the death your right to - *beaten to death by Nazi*

 

[Slayven]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

Nazi's and KKK advocate for the deaths of people just because what they were born as. Is that the mark of one having humanity?

They have chosen to remove themselves from society, we are just honoring that wish

 

[nynt9]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

Here's the thing though. Nazis would just murder me. They don't care. They will not stop unless stopped. You can't stop them by arguing with them reasonably. And letting them organize will only lead to them hurting more people. There is no peaceful solution here, because they do not want peace.

 

[skullmuffins]

Let me stop you right there. I don't give a shit that these are legal. Being an open nazi or a nazi sympathizer is legal. And it just got people injured and killed. So obviously it's a huge issue that it's legal AND it's an issue that we have people who care more about the law then the people white supremacists are actively hurting.

Well yeah, I wouldn't consider myself a free speech absolutist. It just gets annoying when we have thread after thread where people post "hate speech isn't free speech" and getting pissed off at universities and shit issuing permits to people who swear they're coming to give a non-violent speech as if the university had a lot of choice in the matter. Acting as if the speech alone (and not, you know, the violence that accompanies bad actors at these rallies) is already prohibited clouds the discussion over why these rallies are allowed to happen and what it would take for them to be banned.

 

[The Wart]

I will never understand why people think a government teeming with white supremacists and wannabe totalitarians should be given expanded powers to restrict speech. In what universe does that end well? How does this not end up being selectively enforced against progressive causes in the many areas of this country where the political establishment is conservative?

But, you know, rah-rah, punch those nazis, ACLU is white supremacists, etc.

 

[Apt101]

Who approves these permits and OK's the protection from police (and all of the expenses related to that)?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Because every single person there is a nazi? Because every single person there specifically want to incitie violence and get into a race war?

I vehemently disagree with every single person who was protesting (re:not including the brave counter protesters) in Charlottesville, but not all of them were Nazi's. Many of them were stupidly protesting the taking down of a monument. Now, what they were protesting is racist, full stop, but they weren't literally there hoping a huge fight would break out.

Besides, a person self identifying as a Nazi, Neo-Nazi, Nazi sympathizer, doesn't automatically mean their goal as an individual is to incite violence. This is why we can't just generalize these protest. We can all agree these people are hateful, horrible people, but we can't assume some idiot 20 something year old ignorantly protesting some vague idea of keeping America white is the same as somebody who is there trying to start a riot.

People are individuals. We have to treat them as such.

Non-violent hunger strike for white supremacy 2017 is going to be one for the ages.

 

[Nafai1123]

There's all sorts of room for debate about how hate speech laws can be implemented and whether a city should be the one leading the charge to tackle your constitution and whether supporting a Nazi's right to gather and speak makes that supporter a Nazi.

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

The millions who lost their lives in WWII disagree. Nazis are terrorists. They should be treated as such.

 

[Not]

Actually I said I don't agree with going up and beating the shit out of someone simply for being a Nazi. I don't think violence helps or solves anything.

That, or the people arguing for free speech, doesn't make us a Nazi sympathizer.

If you want to debate the limits of speech and protest by all means lets have it, but we're on the same side at the end of the day. We just have different ideas of how we want to accomplish our goals.

Spirit of the law over the letter, my friend. Every time.

"Free speech" as a right has been honored for white people and men far, far, far more than it has for anyone else.

Is your perspective tainted?

 

[Spoiled Milk]

This thread has become dangerously derailed. Can we please keep it on Boston? I have close friends there and I'm interested in this information. Where is this rally, when will it take place, are there counter protests planned, etc.? I don't want this thread to be locked just because someone is being stupid. Especially not when I am worried about the safety of people I care about.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Then demonstrate it. Because letting someone like say the President, or Congress, or local mayors decide this is ripe for corruption. Refusing permits and then citing people for violations was used heavily to round up Black protesters during the Civil Rights movement.

If they start doing this, you don't think there will be any repercussions from the general population?

 

[Bsigg12]

Because every single person there is a nazi? Because every single person there specifically want to incitie violence and get into a race war?

I vehemently disagree with every single person who was protesting (re:not including the brave counter protesters) in Charlottesville, but not all of them were Nazi's. Many of them were stupidly protesting the taking down of a monument. Now, what they were protesting is racist, full stop, but they weren't literally there hoping a huge fight would break out.

Besides, a person self identifying as a Nazi, Neo-Nazi, Nazi sympathizer, doesn't automatically mean their goal as an individual is to incite violence. This is why we can't just generalize these protest. We can all agree these people are hateful, horrible people, but we can't assume some idiot 20 something year old ignorantly protesting some vague idea of keeping America white is the same as somebody who is there trying to start a riot.

People are individuals. We have to treat them as such.

🤔🤔🤔

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Yes. Totally agree. But I'm not arguing those people aren't horrible. I'm saying the Constitution gives every citizen a right to protest peacefully, and having a hateful message isn't the same thing as wanting to incite a race war.

The people who want to incite violence shouldn't be allowed to protest their hateful message. But as difficult as it is to accept, if somebody wants to peacefully protest racism, awful ideals it is their lawful right. Taking that right away doesn't solve the problem of racism, it would just rile up even more hate filled people to speak out and it would weaken the entirety of our Constitution. If we stay stripping away rights from people we don't like - and any decent person should adamantly abhor Nazi's and White Supremacists - where does it stop?

From the Vice video on the rally:

Cantwell: I’m not even saying we’re non-violent, I’m fucking saying we didn’t aggress, we did not innitiate force against anybody—we will fucking kill these people if we have to.

Yes, these people do not want to incite a race war. These people are non violent.

Fuck outta here with this bullshit

 

[TetraGenesis]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=96379

118 posts.

Ah, one of those.

"Someone on NeoGAF" would probably have been better terminology. I would never call a racist with a burner a Gaffer.

 

[m_shortpants]

I read an interesting theory the other day that the reason free speech laws were written they were written was because dueling laws were a thing back then.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Ah, one of those.

"Someone on NeoGAF" would probably have been better terminology. I would never call a racist with a burner a Gaffer.

It's Curt Shilling

That was the joke

 

[Slayven]

From the Vice video on the rally:



Yes, these people do not want to incite a race war. These people are non violent.

Fuck outta here with this bullshit

But don't call them bad people, might hurt their feelings

 

[Lightning_Roller]

If you sincerely feel the need to let everyone know that Nazis are people too... you've lost the damn plot

Thank you. I could give a good goddamn about a fucking nazi having feelings when his feelings involve wanting me IN A GODDAMN PINE BOX!!!

FUCK THOSE GOOSE STEPPING PIECES OF SHIT AND THEIR FUCKING FEELINGS! BECAUSE THE MOMENT THEY THINK OF HORRIBLE ATROCITIES FOR PEOPLE, THEN THEY ARENT FUCKING HUMAN ANYMORE. POINT. BLANK. PERIOD.

 

[East Lake]

doesn't? When face with clear and present evil, try to protect it because actually acknowledging the equality of marginalized people would be such a disruption to so many people.

"These people want to kill minorities"

"But free speech"

Not sure what you're trying to say here. What you quoted wasn't about free speech and the quote was fairly unambiguous.

 

[Somnid]

Canada, Germany.

Look if you want to argue the USA is so extra fucked up that unlike everywhere else stopping Nazis from being public is worse for y'all that's fine but then don't start acting like the US Constitution is some great document that fights fascism because you're the only place in the West that lets them march. Not to mention also celebrates how great the law is that lets them.

Are you trying to argue Canada and Germany don't have Neo Nazis because that's certainly not true. If not publically seeing the face of it let's us pretend it doesn't exist, then maybe that's not a good course of action. Germany actually has the historical context of being Nazi and then losing everything over it, so you'd expect especially high dislike for it over privileged Americans but the Neo Nazi movement started there. Realistically, these people exist whether you see them or not and we want to deal with them in sensible ways that do not trade rights away. Trump, as you may have heard, literally called out the "alt-left" and pumped up a "both sides" argument. He frequently talks up enhancing libel laws because the free press is dishonest. How could any rational person ask for more ability to interpret such a law in this environment? This is literally what it was designed to protect.

 

[arglebargle]

We need to do this:

I would donate if someone set this up.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Actually I said I don't agree with going up and beating the shit out of someone simply for being a Nazi. I don't think violence helps or solves anything.

That, or the people arguing for free speech, doesn't make us a Nazi sympathizer.

Oh boo hoo, step aside then, we're talking about people who want this to come back:

They lost their humanity when they decided that this shit is okay.

 

[Not]

Non-violent hunger strike for white supremacy 2017 is going to be one for the ages.

Oh yeah, that'll be the first thing they try for sure

If you're arguing for freedom of speech laws and treating Nazis with understanding in this thread, watch this video first if you haven't already:

https://youtu.be/RIrcB1sAN8I

It'll only inform your viewpoint and make your argument stronger.

 

[rudger]

Can people stop arguing for restrictions to our freedom of speech? It's a really easy fucking argument to understand how not allowing a group to peaceably assemble because one dumb fuck with a car murders somebody in another city representing a different group than the Boston one (remember, the Boston people say they aren't Nazis) is unconstitutional. And if you don't agree, then understand that your argument will lead to groups like BLM not being allowed to protest or even organize since they have been blamed for the murder of several cops - which I'm not saying is right, but our current justice department would definitely argue that (the president already has!!).

This isn't hard to understand and it's extremely disheartening to see people call others Nazi sympathizer for pointing out something which should be obvious.

 

[LiK]

If someone sees Tommy from Malden there, feel free to punch him for me. Fuck that racist asshole.

 

[Lowmelody]

Always gotta have ahistorical contrarians that find themselves defending Nazis in pursuit of frozen peaches.

 

[Wallach]

But the moment you criticize somebody for humanizing a human, as some posters have done regarding a post about Nazis being persons, you have lost the damn plot. While they have atrocious beliefs, they are still a person. They are deserving of all the inherent human rights and civil rights granted to persons under international and national law. Persons are not any less persons for having hateful or stupid beliefs.

No, I think you've totally got this shit wrong. You do not have the right to be a fucking Nazi and share in everything society offers the rest of us. We do not owe anyone that; there are limits to what can be allowed in all things.

You're making a choice. You get to be part of society or a Nazi. Not both.

 

[Velcro Fly]

Can people stop arguing for restrictions to our freedom of speech? It's a really easy fucking argument to understand how not allowing a group to peaceably assemble because one dumb fuck with a car murders somebody in another city representing a different group than the Boston one (remember, the Boston people say they aren't Nazis) is unconstitutional. And if you don't agree, then understand that your argument will lead to groups like BLM not being allowed to protest or even organize since they have been blamed for the murder of several cops - which I'm not saying is right, but our current justice department would definitely argue that (the president already has!!).

This isn't hard to understand and it's extremely disheartening to see people call others Nazi sympathizer for pointing out something which should be obvious.

Nazis should not be given a platform. Ever. They aren't nonviolent. They want to destroy anyone that isn't like them. Charlottesville wasn't the first go around with this bullshit. It won't be the last if we keep it up. This isn't okay and it never will be.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are you trying to argue Canada and Germany don't have Neo Nazis because that's certainly not true. If not publically seeing the face of it let's us pretend it doesn't exist, then maybe that's not a good course of action. Germany actually has the historical context of being Nazi and then losing everything over it, so you'd expect especially high dislike for it over privileged Americans but the Neo Nazi movement started there. Realistically, these people exist whether you see them or not and we want to deal with them in sensible ways that do not trade rights away. Trump, as you may have heard, literally called out the "alt-left" and pumped up a "both sides" argument. He frequently talks up enhancing libel laws because the free press is dishonest. How could any rational person ask for more ability to interpret such a law in this environment? This is literally what it was designed to protect.

We don't have neo nazis march down our street here in Canada calling for Genocide no.

Germany was you know ground zero for Nazis. Then war and incredible amounts of prosecution and anti Nazi laws took care of most of the rest.

Look if you think anti-Nazi are a bad idea fine whatever ... but don't pretend those who have them aren't in better shape than y'all in terms of dealing with Neo-Nazis.

 

[Enzom21]

I wonder if all of you nazi defenders in here would also defend ISIS if they decided to march. I doubt any of you would.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

Didn't know we had Nazi sympathizers here too tbh

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Hope a lot of nazis get punched

 

[Alucrid]

Because every single person there is a nazi? Because every single person there specifically want to incitie violence and get into a race war?

I vehemently disagree with every single person who was protesting (re:not including the brave counter protesters) in Charlottesville, but not all of them were Nazi's. Many of them were stupidly protesting the taking down of a monument. Now, what they were protesting is racist, full stop, but they weren't literally there hoping a huge fight would break out.

Besides, a person self identifying as a Nazi, Neo-Nazi, Nazi sympathizer, doesn't automatically mean their goal as an individual is to incite violence. This is why we can't just generalize these protest. We can all agree these people are hateful, horrible people, but we can't assume some idiot 20 something year old ignorantly protesting some vague idea of keeping America white is the same as somebody who is there trying to start a riot.

People are individuals. We have to treat them as such.

now which of these fine young men yelling "jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" is just trying to peacefully protest a statue being removed?

 

[MisterShine]

.. How does this not end up being selectively enforced against progressive causes in the many areas of this country where the political establishment is conservative?

100% chance any hate speech laws will go after BLM 2 seconds after it is ratified. They'll point to a handful of crazy organizers who tweeted White Genocide, point to the Dallas police shooter, point to any antifa who swung first in a grainy video, and that is fuckin' that. Cops come and round up peaceful BLM protesters, people fight back because that is horse shit, and we're off to the damn races.

I'm not an accelerationist so that kinda scares the shit out of me. Or maybe I'm just being cynical.

 

[LiK]

Didn't know we had Nazi sympathizers here too tbh

Some other threads had some but they're gone now.

 

[LotusHD]

Didn't know we had Nazi sympathizers here too tbh

Defense force for everything on here, stay woke

 

[ModBot]

This topic is OK to have a topic about but if the discussion is a few people saying "I hate nazis too but I'm not sure about whether we can ban hate speech" and 99% of people replying with "You're a nazi too!" then there's no point in having a thread at all. There's clearly a way to argue about this, even passionately, without this being a virtual reenactment of a mob scene.