Support NeoGAF

[Dreathlock]

Truth is they invested 0 in new technology. Game looks exactly the same as in 2013. Still no dedicated servers and mind blowing 30fps.

Why are they trying to explain this?

There is no other explanation than greed.

 

[BadAss2961]

I'm not surprised. Has Bungie ever made a 60fps game?

Just doesn't seem like a priority to them.

 

[KageMaru]

Because many devs want parity between console experiences, they don't want the base level console to be viewed as lesser because it makes up the vast majority of those playing and could affect sales.

They also might even care bout the fairness of their online experience, who knows...

If this were true, we wouldn't be seeing so many 900pvs1080p games on the XBO and PS4.

Also sales would not be effected when the vast, vast majority of gamers don't know or care how their version compares to the version on a competing console.

I'm not going to believe that games such as Battlefield 1 have less demanding features, and they are able to run at much higher framerates. Bungie's engine clearly isn't mature enough for the hardware. It doesn't look special at all, definitely not the most demanding looking and feeling game out there, which just means that they haven't been able to optimise.

30fps was one of the main reasons I didn't like Destiny 1. In Bungie's previous games that framerate worked adequately, because Halo is slower paced and graphically more austere (in style too, not just tech). Destiny's high tempo gameplay and space magic graphical effects meant that 30fps limit really hurt the experience.

That sweet, sweet 60fps gameplay...

https://youtu.be/s8S4cIUb3Y0

Spoiler

/s

 

[Zakalwe]

If this were true, we wouldn't be seeing so many 900pvs1080p games on the XBO and PS4.

Also sales would not be effected when the vast, vast majority of gamers don't know or care how their version compares to the version on a competing console.

Resolution differences at that level don't have anywhere near the same impact on gameplay as the disparity between 30 and 60 fps.

And you're downplaying how much the core fanbase can affect sales. Positive word of mouth from your core community is a huge boost.

 

[Naked Lunch]

I dont play 30fps multiplayer FPS in 2017.
Pass.

 

[gamz]

Resolution differences at that level don't have anywhere near the same impact on gameplay as the disparity between 30 and 60 fps.

And you're downplaying how much the core fanbase can affect sales. Positive word of mouth from your core community is a huge boost.

For Scorpio I agree.

 

[-hadouken]

Who says that it's a feature developers need to implement?
G-Sync just works automatically in PC games going back decades, with no developer support required.
Scorpio might automatically unlock the framerate when you connect a FreeSync/HDMI 2.1 VRR display, in any game that uses a swapinterval of 2 to limit the framerate (1/2 refresh rate V-Sync - which is effectively 30 FPS) rather than implementing a hard 30 FPS cap.

So you're feeling confident enough to lock it in? My $10 (can up that amount if you want) says the game is capped (regardless of display) at 30fps on all consoles. Do we have a bet?

 

[LukasTaves]

The game launched at 1080p if I remember clearly, it's 30fps with the same graphical settings on PS4. PS4 does not have better AF or even AA as a minimum, farless for any extra graphical bells and whistles, they're both 30fps, this means that there was lots of untapped power for the game on the PS4. I hope you're not waiting for Bungie to come out and declare it like Ubisoft did, but Destiny 1 was as parity as you could get on the consoles...

It launched at 1080p, but the beta from a couple months before ran at 900p.

It was Ms that released a new SDK (with kinect I think) and helped Bungie achieve 1080p. Back then they also helped Diablo 3 and a few other devs for instance.

Edit: And Unity had terrible framerate on both consoles, during gameplay it was even worse on Ps4 at launch.

There's for sure a desire for parity, not necessarily a paid one, but more of the developer/publisher wanting all versions to be successful. The prime example for that would be the Ps3.

 

[Zakalwe]

I dont play 30fps multiplayer FPS in 2017.
Pass.

What about 30fps FPS co-op across an extensive campaign with tonnes of co-op content?

This is what Destiny 2 potentially is, not just the pvp.

30fps can easily be justified for a FPS /if/ the rest of the game shows how the dev cost has been spent elsewhere in a meaningful way. Of course, they could have separated PVP (especially as it's lower in scope now with 4v4).

 

[Alter_Fridge]

NEXT GEN inspector gadget NEXT GEN!!!

LMAOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Noisepurge]

So the reason is laziness, got it Bungie no reason the Crucible couldn't be 60.

 

[nOoblet16]

I'm gonna say this again, the PvE was never going to 60FPS due to the CPU intensive nature of it but there is little reason for the PvP to not be 60FPS outside of keeping parity between PvE and PvP.

Is Destiny really more fast paced than Halo 2?

It's considerably more fast paced than Halo 2, which is a shooter on the slow side. Although Bungie has tried very hard to slow down the pace of Destiny for a long time by nerfing special ammo, handcanons (particularly The Last Word) and blink. Now in Destiny 2 they'll make things even slower by removing Titan skating altogether (skating is a way of using the titan jetpack boosts to blaze through the map)

 

[Zakalwe]

So the reason is laziness, got it Bungie no reason the Crucible couldn't be 60.

I don't see any reason it couldn't be, especially as they lowered the player count.

Unless there's some dramatic level of interactivity we don't know about yet in 4v4, it's probably because of experience parity across the entire game or something lame.

 

[Paragon]

So you're feeling confident enough to lock it in? My $10 (can up that amount if you want) says the game is capped (regardless of display) at 30fps on all consoles. Do we have a bet?

No, I don't care enough to put money on it.
I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that Scorpio might automatically unlock the framerate on many games if you connect up a VRR display, since G-Sync can do that on PC - and Destiny 2 could be one of those games.
Even if it's not automatic, I don't see any good reason for them to lock the framerate to 30 when a VRR display is connected.
There's no such thing as parity on consoles anyway, since there are so many factors external to the game.
Just connecting up a VRR display is going to improve latency by probably 100ms in most 30 FPS games, so it's not like locking the framerate to 30 is guaranteeing that players get the same experience anyway.

 

[geordiemp]

Gaf (straw)Man in: The Curious Case of the CPU-bound Video Game! Oversimplified collector's edition

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places and incidents either are products of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.

Frame rate: 30
What is this? A 30 fps video game! Fret not! Gaf man is here to save the day! Clearly they have sacrificed the fluidity of the game for fancy (checkerboarded) 4K. Let us turn down the resolution to 1080p.

Frame rate: 30
Alas! That was not enough! We will have to crank it down further! 720p here we go!

Frame rate: 30
Somehow, this isn't working. I guess we just haven't gone down enough. 480p, here we go!

Frame rate: 30
You know what? Graphics are overrated. Destiny 2 would be far better as an artistic experience that replicates blindness. How about we render nothing at all?

Frame rate: 35
Progress! Gaf man has cracked yet another case!

You need to go to 1080p for 30 FPS (as what it is now), BUTthen say 32 enemies = 32 ms for the CPU game world.

OK ;lets have 10 enemies and make them dumber.- hey 60 FPS !

 

[Renekton]

So the reason is laziness, got it Bungie no reason the Crucible couldn't be 60.

I don't see any reason it couldn't be, especially as they lowered the player count..

Back to the "lazy devs" thing again?

So how many hours do you work a week, compared to a Bungie dev?

I work a lot actually, for a game engine company. And i play Overwatch and Battlefield 1 that set a lot of benchmarks...

An actual AAA PS4X1 engine or the Supercell mobile stuff? Plus I'm guessing Bungie devs are crunching while we're arguing on GAF or playing Overwatch.

 

[Noisepurge]

Back to the "lazy devs" thing again?

So how many hours do you work a week, compared to a Bungie dev?

I work a lot actually, for a game engine company. And i play Overwatch and Battlefield 1 that set a lot of benchmarks...

 

[Zakalwe]

Back to the "lazy devs" thing again?

So how many hours do you work a week, compared to a Bungie dev?

I didn't say they were lazy. I said I don't currently see a reason for it (of course this includes dev stuff).

 

[KageMaru]

Resolution differences at that level don't have anywhere near the same impact on gameplay as the disparity between 30 and 60 fps.

And you're downplaying how much the core fanbase can affect sales. Positive word of mouth from your core community is a huge boost.

Problem with your assumption is that 90% of gamers won't know or care about any performance difference. People like you and I who post on GAF and read Digital Foundry are a small drop in a sea of gamers. Of the dozen or so gamers I talk to regularly, I'm the only one who reads up on resolutions, framerate, and other aspects of a graphical makeup. I know that's anecdotal but it's just one of many examples to how the average gamer just doesn't care about gaming technology. They may like sausage, but they don't give a shit to how it's made or what is in it.

I'm not downplaying anything, that's just how the audience is. There was complaints over the performance of B1 on consoles but those versions sold great. There were Huge differences in player count, resolution, and framerates of BF games on last gen consoles but the console versions still sold great. Good marketing and reviews can (and have) overshadowed even the loudest minorities.

 

[Zakalwe]

Problem with your assumption is that 90% of gamers won't know or care about any performance difference. People like you and I who post on GAF and read Digital Foundry are a small drop in a sea of gamers. Of the dozen or so gamers I talk to regularly, I'm the only one who reads up on resolutions, framerate, ad other aspects of a graphical makeup. I know that's anecdotal but it's just one of many examples to how the average gamer just doesn't care about gaming technology. They may like sausage, but they don't give a shit to how it's made or what is in it.

I'm not downplaying anything, that's just how the audience is. There was complaints over the performance of B1 on consoles but those versions sold great. There were Huge differences in player count, resolution, and framerates of BF games on last gen consoles but the console versions still sold great. Good marketing and reviews can (and have) overshadowed even the loudest minorities.

You are downplaying how much devs launching a new MP franchise care about the reactions of their core community, yes. You're also downplaying how much Bungie care about their core community, they have been wonderful in their community focus and TTK echoes many of the core community's feedback at the time.

And you're also downplaying the disparity between the same game being played at 30fps on one side and 60fps on the other. The examples you give do not show such a stark divide.

 

[satriales]

They blame physics and AI, but these things run independent of the graphics rendering. For example, you can have a 60fps game with the AI calculations being done at 10FPS.

 

[Dubz]

Is this the only AAA shooter that runs at 30 on consoles?I can't think of any others off the top of my head

 

[Behlel]

Is this the only AAA shooter that runs at 30 on consoles?I can't think of any others off the top of my head

Far Cry.

 

[AstroNut325]

Is this the only AAA shooter that runs at 30 on consoles?I can't think of any others off the top of my head

The best selling game of 2017, Ghost Recon, 30 fps.

 

[Akhe]

NEXT GEN inspector gadget NEXT GEN!!!

 

[nOoblet16]

Is this the only AAA shooter that runs at 30 on consoles?I can't think of any others off the top of my head

Farcry, Prey, Killzone Shadowfall (in SP, has option to unlock framerate but still spends most time in low-mid 30s), Dishonored 2, Deus Ex:MD (not a shooter but first person RPG with shooting), Alien Isolation (not really a shooter again but first person with little shooting).

Dying Light and Homefront 2 could be considered AAA as well (atleast the later was considered AAA pre release before it shat the bed)

 

[Diablohead]

It must be a lot of work to get what they already have to run at 60 on console cpu's so I don't blame them at all for keeping it 30.

 

[KageMaru]

You are downplaying how much devs launching a new MP franchise care about the reactions of their core community, yes. You're also downplaying how much Bungie care about their core community, they have been wonderful in their community focus and TTK echoes many of the core community's feedback at the time.

And you're also downplaying the disparity between the same game being played at 30fps on one side and 60fps on the other. The examples you give do not show such a stark divide.

When they consistently launched overpriced DLC as "expansions", no they didn't listen to gamers. They locked people out of content and modes previously available to them in the vanilla game with the intention of pushing their DLC. No, they didn't listen to gamers, they listened to their core fanbase who was already all in with their game. There is a difference between a fanbase and the gaming audience at large. We're talking about two different groups of people.

And again BF was 25-30fps on consoles last gen while 60+fps on PC but the console versions still sold great. BF1 runs at ~35-45fps on the PS4 but enjoys a ~10-15fps advantage on the Pro but again that hasn't stopped the game from succeeding on consoles.

 

[Gator86]

The best selling game of 2017, Ghost Recon, 30 fps.

Incredible company there. I hope D2 can match the overwhelming quality of Wildlands. I'm looking forward to getting hands on the beta.

 

[Vipu]

The power of PS4PRO!

 

[shouamabane]

60fps would be a coup for Scorpio, if it can be done.

 

[nOoblet16]

The best selling game of 2017, Ghost Recon, 30 fps.

To be fair we haven't had any AAA 60FPS game this year so far.

Anyhow Ghost Recon will remain the best selling game this year until COD comes out and the best selling game becomes a 60FPS game again. But I'd be lying if I said Destiny 2 does not have a fair shot at preventing that from happening.

 

[Zakalwe]

When they consistently launched overpriced DLC as "expansions", no they didn't listen to gamers.

The only DLC that felt lacking was TDB, TTK and RoI were very good value for the money.

They locked people out of content and modes previously available to them in the vanilla game with the intention of pushing their DLC. No, they didn't listen to gamers, they listened to their core fanbase who was already all in with their game. There is a difference between a fanbase and the gaming audience at large. We're talking about two different groups of people.

One example counter to the many positive, and what they locked them out of wasn't that huge (I agree, it shouldn't have been done at all, but it wasn't a massive thing in a practical sense).

And again BF was 25-30fps on consoles last gen while 60+fps on PC but the console versions still sold great. BF1 runs at ~35-45fps on the PS4 but enjoys a ~10-15fps advantage on the Pro but again that hasn't stopped the game from succeeding on consoles.

...

No one is talking about consoles vs PCs, we're talking about consoles having a disparity between base version and upgraded.

And a 10-15fps difference is nowhere near the gulf of 30-60.

 

[Hux1ey]

60fps would be a coup for Scorpio, if it can be done.

Not sure if it can, but it won't.

 

[KageMaru]

The only DLC that felt lacking was TDB, TTK and RoI were very good value for the money.



One example counter to the many positive, and what they locked them out of wasn't that huge (I agree, it shouldn't have been done at all, but it wasn't a massive thing in a practical sense).



...

No one is talking about consoles vs PCs, we're talking about consoles having a disparity between base version and upgraded.

And a 10-15fps difference is nowhere near the gulf of 30-60.

You're missing the point that there is a massive difference between a fanbase and the entire gaming audience. Most gamers don't even know what framerates are or how they effect games.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I think by holiday 2019 we'll see PS5 and if MS wants to stay in the space Xbox Next.

 

[n0razi]

then Scorpio would be the only hope for a 60fps console version

I thought Scorpio had essentially the same CPU... so it would still bottleneck

 

[Zakalwe]

You're missing the point that there is a massive difference between a fanbase and the entire gaming audience. Most gamers don't even know what framerates are or how they effect games.

Of course they don't, but that doesn't counter my point at all...

 

[Raide]

I thought Scorpio had essentially the same CPU... so it would still bottleneck

I guess it depends who you believe. It's a slightly upclocked Jaguar CPU that adds no real benefit to games...or it's a heavily modified Jaguar that adds engine specific upgrades, beyond what a basic Jaguar core could provide.

Who knows!

 

[hanspampel]

I guess it depends who you believe. It's a slightly upclocked Jaguar CPU that adds no real benefit to games...or it's a heavily modified Jaguar that adds engine specific upgrades, beyond what a basic Jaguar core could provide.

Who knows!

the customisation stuff is not on the core itself, but rather the communication between the cores and caches, gpu and cpu etc.


no way they made a different jaguar core

 

[Chobel]

Gaf (straw)Man in: The Curious Case of the CPU-bound Video Game! Oversimplified collector's edition

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places and incidents either are products of the author’s imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.

Frame rate: 30
What is this? A 30 fps video game! Fret not! Gaf man is here to save the day! Clearly they have sacrificed the fluidity of the game for fancy (checkerboarded) 4K. Let us turn down the resolution to 1080p.

Frame rate: 30
Alas! That was not enough! We will have to crank it down further! 720p here we go!

Frame rate: 30
Somehow, this isn't working. I guess we just haven't gone down enough. 480p, here we go!

Frame rate: 30
You know what? Graphics are overrated. Destiny 2 would be far better as an artistic experience that replicates blindness. How about we render nothing at all?

Frame rate: 35
Progress! Gaf man has cracked yet another case!

 

[KageMaru]

Of course they don't, but that doesn't counter my point at all...

Yes it does. If the general audience is ignorant or unaware of something, that only leaves a vocal minority to have minimal impact.

 

[SMOK3Y]

I guess it depends who you believe. It's a slightly upclocked Jaguar CPU that adds no real benefit to games...or it's a heavily modified Jaguar that adds engine specific upgrades, beyond what a basic Jaguar core could provide.

Who knows!

Yep & pros cpu is just off the shelf?

 

[Raide]

Yep & pros cpu is just off the shelf?

Consoles don't do off the shelf, so of course the PS4 Pro is modified, its just the Scorpio changes are supposedly more drastic that what was in the Xbox One.

 

[Matt]

I guess it depends who you believe. It's a slightly upclocked Jaguar CPU that adds no real benefit to games...or it's a heavily modified Jaguar that adds engine specific upgrades, beyond what a basic Jaguar core could provide.

Who knows!

We know.

 

[PaulExcellent]

So when it's 60fps on Scorpio, they have a push for the system upgrade from the Xbone.

Still gonna buy it on PC.
Oh, wait. Gotta wait a month or two.
Hmm.

 

[SMOK3Y]

Consoles don't do off the shelf, so of course the PS4 Pro is modified, its just the Scorpio changes are supposedly more drastic that what was in the Xbox One.

So its more PR than anything? I've just been struggling to think that .200ghz is going to make a big difference on cpu intensive issues. I know it has a more powerful GPU & faster & more ram will those help the situation? I just hope it has SuperSampling on 1080p as it plays so well at 30fps

 

[Unreal Champ]

Gotta love the armchair developers and engineers in this topic.

 

[void666]

Bungie should just code to the metal.

/s

 

[Kaako]

Consoles don't do off the shelf, so of course the PS4 Pro is modified, its just the Scorpio changes are supposedly more drastic that what was in the Xbox One.

We sure about this? I could've sworn I read many times it was an off the shelf toaster CPU as opposed to an elegant custom handcrafted CPU(Scorpio).