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[Moff]

The documentary has grown in popularity lately and is on the top spots of amazon, itunes and googleplay.
The feminist Cassie Jaye, who is an award winning documentary creator, is mostly known for her film "Daddy I do", about purity balls and other films about women's and LGBT rights. "The red pill" has already won several awards on it's own.

I have watched it today and I have to say it made me question a few of my beliefs.
First of all I have been a feminist for a good 20 years, not only do I obviously support equal rights, pay, treatment and opportunities for women but I am also a firm believer that socialized patriarchy is the source for many of today's gender problems and the harmful traditional gender roles that come with it.

The first third of the documentary deals with MRA activists and the issues they want to focus on. Things like the higher mortality of men in their traditional roles, higher suicide rate, worse treatment in custody cases and domestic violence.
All of these issues I was already aware of and I thought to myself "yeah, patriarchy did this, feminism deals with those as well, men need feminism". So I was surprised that these MRA in this documentary were not women hating traditionalists that wanted the status quo to go back 100 years and put women in the kitchen, but that they were trying to break up traditional gender roles as well.

But then I was surprised again, and honestly disappointed, that the feminists she interviewed for this did not only not recognize these issues but belittled and ridiculed them in a way that I usually associate with toxic masculinity.

This again made me think of several threads we lately had on GAF, which asked the question if you label yourself a feminist. And indeed the last words in the documentary from Cassie Jaye are that she no longer labels herself a feminist.

What I personally took away from this documentary is that both MRA and feminists want the same thing, to break up traditional genders roles that harm both genders, but they are disagreeing and arguing about silly semantics and prefer to fight each other.

No I wonder, was she duped? Was I duped? What is the definition of feminism? Is the way I believe in feminism wrong?
I know that GAF loves topics like that and always follow them closely so I wondered what other gaffers might think about this documentary.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I'm at work else I would look myself---is it available for streaming? You mention it has a top spot on Amazon, but wasn't sure if I could stream with my prime membership.

 

[MrToughPants]

I am out of touch...thought red pill was about The Matrix.

 

[Swiggins]

*pops popcorn in preparation for this thread*

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I think it's important to remember what you're *NOT* shown in a documentary.

Finding some people who identify as feminists while also being really shitty and dismissive of other issues isn't hard. Hell, the whole TERF thing is that in a nutshell, no?

The vast majority of people who champion feminism are not dismissive of men's issues, or if they are, I haven't met them, and I've pretty well surrounded myself with feminist activists for most of my life. If she interviewed say, 100 women about feminism, do you think she's likely to put in a range of responses, or instead focus on the vitriolic or dismissive ones?

I don't know this woman, so I don't know what her goal was in the first place, so I can't speak to where her bias might lie.

 

[BearPawB]

go to /r/theredpill and tell me they sound like reasonable people

 

[Moff]

go to /r/theredpill and tell me they sound like reasonable people

she actually mentions this subreddit in the documentary and says these people are only looking for advantage and "do not see head to head" with the MRA she interviewed for this documentary. I agree that this subreddit is pure poison and hate.

 

[Frostinferno]

I am out of touch...thought red pill was about The Matrix.

The name in this context is actually in reference to that, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Darryl M R]

I think it's important to remember what you're *NOT* shown in a documentary.

Finding some people who identify as feminists while also being really shitty and dismissive of other issues isn't hard. Hell, the whole TERF thing is that in a nutshell, no?

The vast majority of people who champion feminism are not dismissive of men's issues, or if they are, I haven't met them, and I've pretty well surrounded myself with feminist activists for most of my life. If she interviewed say, 100 women about feminism, do you think she's likely to put in a range of responses, or instead focus on the vitriolic or dismissive ones?

I don't know this woman, so I don't know what her goal was in the first place, so I can't speak to where her bias might lie.

I agree with your post. After reading OP the first thought I had was "Well if they are dismissive about men issues then they aren't feminists since feminism is equal treatment for all."

Feminism would support men talking about their mental health and not having them feel weak because they need to seek professional help. Not say, "Well women have it worst."

I'll have to find time to watch the documentary--hopefully this weekend.

 

[John Kowalski]

I am out of touch...thought red pill was about The Matrix.

This is, in essence, a reference to The Matrix as well. The idea that the red pill is a symbol for hidden knowledge, the truth of reality behind the fabricated veil. So it is with MRA, they, in all their egotism and pretense of validity, have decided that such a metaphor is something that rightfully describes their simulated struggle.

 

[Slayven]

I am out of touch...thought red pill was about The Matrix.

They co-opted it

go to /r/theredpill and tell me they sound like reasonable people

yep

 

[jon bones]

mra apoligists? nah i'm good

 

[daviyoung]

I haven't seen the documentary but is there any mention of MRA as a reaction to feminism, rather than a movement in and of itself?

 

[HStallion]

Did the doc ask any of these people about why they didn't give a shit about men's rights until women started asking for their own?

Edit: To expand there are certainly several issues in terms of men's right buts nearly every person I've met that was an MRA was a misogynistic piece of crap on the level of a Gamer Gate supporter or a member of the Alt Right. Often they were all one in the same or drank from the same cup if nothing else. They use the term Men's Rights to push their ugly bull shit as something legitimate.

Its like trying to portray PETA as actually giving a shit about the rights of animals when they are more interested in fame and money by and far.

 

[Psychoward]

Men specific issues do exist yeah but there are no men specific issues that should result in tearing down feminist ideals either and men absolutely do not face more discrimination than women in pretty much any country around the world no matter how they phrase it.

 

[firehawk12]

But then I was surprised again, and honestly disappointed, that the feminists she interviewed for this did not only not recognize these issues but belittled and ridiculed them in a way that I usually associate with toxic masculinity.

This is like making a documentary about how global warming is a hoax and interviewing scientists funded by oil companies.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I agree with your post. After reading OP the first thought I had was "Well if they are dismissive about men issues then they aren't feminists since feminism is equal treatment for all."

Feminism would support men talking about their mental health and not having them feel weak because they need to seek professional help. Not say, "Well women have it worst."

I'll have to find time to watch the documentary--hopefully this weekend.

"not a true" feminist isn't a valid argument point when there have been so many branches of feminism throughout history, as well as different movements and goals within them.

OP I wouldn't really hold documentaries like this to standards that should shake beliefs when the medium is literally designed to be edited and designed around a directors goals.

I don't watch Gaslands for informative views on the natural gas industry just like I don't watch FrackNation to get a valid rebuttals on the criticism of natural gas.

 

[collige]

What I personally took away from this documentary is that both MRA and feminists want the same thing, to break up traditional genders roles that harm both genders, but they are disagreeing and arguing about silly semantics and prefer to fight each other.

I have not seen the documentary in question, but I can assure you that this is not the case for the majority of MRA's (which you also have to keep in mind are intricately linked with PUA and anti-PUA/MGTOW bullshit which is supremely misogynist).

 

[Pizoxuat]

Suicide rate and mortality are definitely mens issues that need more focus, but the custody one is often presented as unfair courts and studies show that's just not right. In cases where the father spends as much time with the kids as the mother AND actually goes to family court to fight for custody, men are slightly more likely to win than women are. What happens is that the myth that men are so slighted in family court means the overwhelming majority of fathers don't fight in court. They give up before ever having the battle.

What is needed is not a major overhaul of the courts, but an overhaul of the way people view their chances in court.

 

[FlyinJ]

This is like making a documentary about how global warming is a hoax and interviewing scientists funded by oil companies.

Exactly.

Feminism doesn't belittle the other sex's problems. Assholes do.

This woman just found some assholes to help her drive her narrative.

 

[JP_]

she actually mentions this subreddit in the documentary and says these people are only looking for advantage and "do not see head to head" with the MRA she interviewed for this documentary. I agree that this subreddit is pure poison and hate.

Well no shit you can find a couple reasonable people that are interested in men's rights, but that's different from the MRA movement, which is more accurately represented by communities like that subreddit.

 

[Darryl M R]

"not a true" feminist isn't a valid argument point when there have been so many branches of feminism throughout history, as well as different movements and goals within them.

Are you referring to the waves of feminism? Feminism has always been about the equal treatment of both sexes. And seeing how we are in the 4th wave of feminism critiquing someone on present day standard is quite valid.

 

[benicillin]

It was a Kickstarter documentary that got a lot of funding from the gross corners of the internet and uses people like Paul "Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true" Elam as a primary interview source without challenging them.

Documentaries usually have agendas and this one is preeeetty obvious.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

she actually mentions this subreddit in the documentary and says these people are only looking for advantage and "do not see head to head" with the MRA she interviewed for this documentary. I agree that this subreddit is pure poison and hate.

The MRAs that you see on that subreddit aren't a crazy fringe part of the movement, they're the majority. One guy not seeing eye to eye with the majority means that he's not a representative of MRAs as a whole.

It sucks, but that's how it is.

It was a Kickstarter documentary that got a lot of funding from the gross corners of the internet and uses people like Paul "Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true" Elam as a primary interview source without challenging them.

Documentaries usually have agendas and this one is preeeetty obvious.

That fucker is in this? JFC.

 

[LiquidSword]

If she is trying to paint them in a positive light, why name the doc after a subreddit that is filled with mysoginistic and racial hatred? Might as well have called it Return of Kings

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

No I wonder, was she duped? Was I duped? What is the definition of feminism? Is the way I believe in feminism wrong?

No you're not duped.

Your beliefs aren't invalidated because other people with the same label said something you don't agree with.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Really interesting documentary, there's always extreme view both way sadly, in a better world, both movement would join together and fight for all the issues women and men face

but how can we know which is majority? The reasonnable ones who try to change things, or the crazy subreddit ones who spread hate everywhere?

i'm really curious about this

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

In my college sociology class last year my professor said this. "Do you believe in equal rights for women? Congratulation you're a feminist."

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Most MRA guys are misogynistic, xenophobic, regressive idiots. But some I assume are good people.

 

[Slayven]

In my college sociology class last year my professor said this. "Do you believe in equal rights for women? Congratulation you're a feminist."

pretty much

 

[Corpekata]

" "The red pill" has already won several awards on it's own."

Like what?

 

[Angelus Errare]

MRA is a tainted label. Trying to start a "genuine" discussion under that label is like being a KKK member but wanting to have an honest discussion about racism. Or being associated with Gamergate but wanting to have an honest discussion about "ethics in journalism". MRA isn't focused on men's issue anymore than KKK is focused on black people being treated as equals in America.

They want to get rid of issues that women have been trying to get rid of for ages, yes they're issues that affect men, but these issues are of their own doing (as in the collective entity that is patriarchy). And they're not issues that will be fixed by focusing on uplifting men.

Uplift the lowest to fix issues at the top. There is no other way, our country has collectively proven this time and time again. You want to solve the issues that plague men? Address the issues that plague women. Giving women equal pay, adequate child care systems, physical autonomy all help men as much as women if not more.

Want women to stop being favored in custody cases then help women stay in the workforce and to get back into the workforce quicker when they bear children. Men can't say women deserved to be paid less because they dare take care of kids, then turn around and demand that they stop being favored in child custody battles (ironic given the notion that women are somehow nurturing, caring, emotional and men are none of those things...it's not shocking that the outcome would be courts favor child custody to the mother...it's almost as if these toxic labels actually fucked over men or something).

As a man, I am unable to muster any sympathy for my gender. It's our (as far as it can be 'ours' as a black man) system that we set up to favor us, a system we still have damn near absolute control and dominance in. If we really wanted, we could completely change the system but that requires giving up power/dominance/control, a scary proposition for most men in America. So they vote for powers that keep the current dynamic in place then turn around and go "it's so hard for us out here"

 

[gforguava]

The first third of the documentary deals with MRA activists and the issues they want to focus on. Things like the higher mortality of men in their traditional roles, higher suicide rate, worse treatment in custody cases and domestic violence.

See here is the problem. These are valid points but they are in no way what "MRA activists...focus on." It is completely disingenuous to ignore the overwhelming misogyny at the core of the MRA "movement". It really doesn't take much work to look up Paul Elam and all of his shit.

This doc is vile nonsense.

 

[jon bones]

Really interesting documentary, there's always extreme view both way sadly, in a better world, both movement would join together and fight for all the issues women and men face

there is already a movement for this and it's called Feminism

no need to pretend MRAs have a reason to exist

This doc is vile nonsense.

yeah - nothing more than an effective PR piece so nutjobs can point to it while they dox some women who had the audacity to make fun of their toys

 

[Brakke]

There are definitely reasonable people who care sincerely about oppression of / biases against men in some contexts. "Feminism cares about that too!" is true but it's kind of flip.

But then there are MRAs who are just misogynists. There's kind of a gamergate thing there, "it's about ethics in game journalism" was always a flimsy attempt to provide cover for doing garbage. They mostly want to bitch and be bitter at perceived sleights against them, and are clueless.

So if someone wants to talk to me about disparities in child support rulings or the selective service being whack or whatever, I'm down for that conversation. But if you wanna pivot into "feminists are holding us down!!" or identify as an "MRA" or some bullshit, then miss me.

 

[Pedrito]

Wasn't it bankrolled by MRAs so it's pretty much an infomercial?

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/10/28/an-open-letter-to-cassie-jaye-director-of-the-red-pill/

 

[pirateluigi]

When watching any documentary, ask yourself "Why was this made? Who is this made for? Who funded it? What is the goal?"

Documentarians have the ability to complete shape the discourse of the topic they cover. Interviews can be cherry picked and edited to make ANY point.

That said, there can be value in them. But take everything with a heaping helping of salt.

 

[benicillin]

" "The red pill" has already won several awards on it's own."

Like what?

The same kind of awards like the ones she got for her last documentary from the Cannes Independent Film Festival*

*A scam event not related to the actual Cannes film festival in any way.

 

[Opto]

Sounds like found the few MRAs that could behave in front of a camera. I'm sure you could make documentary about white nationalists in the same manner and paint anti-racists as the real monsters.

The fact that you don't mention the doc going into the horrendous dark side of MRA people shows some pretty troubling steps this film took

GQ's article about going to an MRA event should be required reading. http://www.gq.com/story/mens-rights-activism-the-red-pill

 

[Slayven]

Feminsims is a good but complex idea that some some people twist into fuckery.

MRA and it's twin PUA is toxic from top to bottom,

 

[Rodelero]

The documentary has grown in popularity lately and is on the top spots of amazon, itunes and googleplay.
The feminist Cassie Jaye, who is an award winning documentary creator, is mostly known for her film "Daddy I do", about purity balls and other films about women's and LGBT rights. "The red pill" has already won several awards on it's own.

I have watched it today and I have to say it made me question a few of my beliefs.
First of all I have been a feminist for a good 20 years, not only do I obviously support equal rights, pay, treatment and opportunities for women but I am also a firm believer that socialized patriarchy is the source for many of today's gender problems and the harmful traditional gender roles that come with it.

The first third of the documentary deals with MRA activists and the issues they want to focus on. Things like the higher mortality of men in their traditional roles, higher suicide rate, worse treatment in custody cases and domestic violence.
All of these issues I was already aware of and I thought to myself "yeah, patriarchy did this, feminism deals with those as well, men need feminism". So I was surprised that these MRA in this documentary were not women hating traditionalists that wanted the status quo to go back 100 years and put women in the kitchen, but that they were trying to break up traditional gender roles as well.

But then I was surprised again, and honestly disappointed, that the feminists she interviewed for this did not only not recognize these issues but belittled and ridiculed them in a way that I usually associate with toxic masculinity.

This again made me think of several threads we lately had on GAF, which asked the question if you label yourself a feminist. And indeed the last words in the documentary from Cassie Jaye are that she no longer labels herself a feminist.

What I personally took away from this documentary is that both MRA and feminists want the same thing, to break up traditional genders roles that harm both genders, but they are disagreeing and arguing about silly semantics and prefer to fight each other.

No I wonder, was she duped? Was I duped? What is the definition of feminism? Is the way I believe in feminism wrong?
I know that GAF loves topics like that and always follow them closely so I wondered what other gaffers might think about this documentary.

I haven't watched the film yet, but certainly will at some point. I view myself both as a feminist, and, though not a mens' rights activist, someone who is aware of, and who cares about mens rights issues and the issues that affect men specifically. I think your conclusions are broadly correct.

There is a certain arrogance about some feminists, and even main-stream feminism, in its dismissals of mens' rights issues and mens' rights activists. The notion that feminism can fix those issues strikes me as somewhat gross, both because feminism rarely discusses those topics, and because, while feminists no doubt have plenty of useful ideas on how to solve these gender specific issues, they do not have any right to a hegemony over them. The worst thing is that, in a lot of cases, the alienation and demonisation of people in mens rights plays into the hands of the truly despicable, alt-right brigade. By not allowing men to have a legitimate outlet to talk about their issues outside of feminism, feminists, at times, become everything they are supposed to hate. Sadly, I have seen quite a few instances of this behaviour here on GAF.

There's one relatively public instance in UK politics which illustrates precisely the problem. A Labour MP named Jess Phillips was filmed laughing at another MPs suggestion that there should be a debate on men's right, held on International Men's Day, to mimic the debate on women's rights that is held on International Women's Day. The MP making the proposal is, frankly, a rather nasty piece of work called Phillip Davies. Yet, in acting so dismissive of a perfectly reasonable request, who does she actually serve? Not men, and certainly not feminism. She serves the brigade of people who want to act like feminists are Nazis.

(Just read some of the responses in this thread. Sigh. This is precisely what I'm talking about.)

 

[crimsonheadGCN]

The same kind of awards like the ones she got for her last documentary from the Cannes Independent Film Festival*

*A scam event not related to the actual Cannes film festival in any way.

For those that want more information

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2...jayes-cannes-award-a-fake-signs-point-to-yes/

 

[dawgparty]

MRA apologism in any form gets a hard pass from me.

 

[SapphiCine]

Curious to check this out but seeing a lot of red flags.

 

[Darryl M R]

It really sounds like she found the shiniest and cleanest turd to put on camera for this comparison.Let's just ignore the majority of the individuals pushing MRA.

If you are the counter movement to a progressive one what does that make you?

If you care so much about men's right be a feminist. You will succeed more when you help deconstruct the systems that harm everyone. But MRA is based mostly on attacking feminism.

 

[Griss]

Haven't seen the movie, but I'll say that I think the fact that "men's rights" has become some kind of buzzword for minsogynst views is a tragedy. Of course there are men's rights issues and of course they're worth fighting for. And some arseholes being among that number out there fighting for a discussion of those rights or what have you no more tarnishes the entire endeavour than someone like Valerie Solanas writing the insane Scum Manifesto somehow belittles the cause of equal rights for women. But even in this thread there can be no discussion of actual men's issues because it has already devolved into a 'Wow those guys are assholes!' echo chamber.

I'm not involved in anything to do with men's rights because frankly I'm not currently affected by any of those issues. I don't know what the mentioned subreddit is like - I choose not to visit those places. But I don't need to to think that the ridicule and automatic labelling that comes the way of those who speak out on said issues is destructive and unwarranted.

I read the Guardian's comment is free section, and sometimes wonder what kind of feminist articles we'd get if the gender issues were reversed. I can imagine that the difference in life expectancy would get a huge amount of play. "That average women live years less than men with no plans to fix it is implicit proof that men literally hate women - they do not value their lives whatsoever. Add up all the lost years of life of every woman on average and there's an entire generation's worth of life experience lost to hatred." And so on and so forth. But the fact that it's the reverse shows that not all gender inequalities are caused by hatred or fear - men essentially rule the world, and have no reason not to try and fix the lifetime expectancy difference, but don't. It just is what it is. Yet if it was reversed a huge amount would be read into that gap and what it means for gender relations etc.

As someone who lost two friends to suicide as young men I can't help but see this discussion and the way it is systematically shut down as part of a larger symptom of society telling men to shut the fuck up about their issues.

 

[firehawk12]

I haven't watched the film yet, but certainly will at some point. I view myself both as a feminist, and, though not a mens' rights activist, someone who is aware of, and who cares about mens rights issues and the issues that affect men specifically. I think your conclusions are broadly correct.

There is a certain arrogance about some feminists, and even main-stream feminism, in its dismissals of mens' rights issues and mens' rights activists. The notion that feminism can fix those issues strikes me as somewhat gross, both because feminism rarely discusses those topics, and because, while feminists no doubt have plenty of useful ideas on how to solve these gender specific issues, they do not have any right to a hegemony over them. The worst thing is that, in a lot of cases, the alienation and demonisation of people in mens rights plays into the hands of the truly despicable, alt-right brigade. By not allowing men to have a legitimate outlet to talk about their issues outside of feminism, feminists, at times, become everything they are supposed to hate. Sadly, I have seen quite a few instances of this behaviour here on GAF.

What?

There's a difference between doing something like Movember to raise awareness of prostate cancer and other men's health issues, and being part of the GG/alt-right/MRA/whatever crowd.

MRAs should be dismissed as quickly as the Breitbart people. Hell, MRAs ARE the Breitbart people.

 

[Christhor]

I haven't actually watched this yet, but the trailer did bring up some things that I've never given much thought, it seems like an interesting watch.

But yeah, the name is probably a mistake.

 

[ebullientprism]

It sounds like the documentary (cant watch it at work) compares the most well reasoned, sane people from the MRA/Redpill community to the worst reasoned, crazy people from the Feminism camp.

I mean, fucking duh of course one side is gonna look bad in that case.

I am just going by your description in the OP.

I have seen the average red piller and I have seen the average feminist. Red pillers are pure shit stains.

 

[jon bones]

As someone who lost two friends to suicide as young men I can't help but see this discussion and the way it is systematically shut down as part of a larger symptom of society telling men to shut the fuck up about their issues.

blame the idiots leading the cause, not society at large.

if these young men could organize and lobby for their issues without being violently toxic about it, they wouldn't be immediately dismissed by people with half a brain

I haven't actually watched this yet, but the trailer did bring up some things that I've never given much thought, it seems like an interesting watch.

But yeah, the name is probably a mistake.

the name is intentional to associate MRA with some thing other than rape apologists

it's working, apparently