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[Warm Machine]

Do the posters here think men and women think the same way? Do men and women not use their gender and position as leverage? Are sexual dynamics and mechanics seen as being equal between the genders in society or by yourself?

I think this is a sea of grey with no defined answers complicated by whichever society your position it into. There are questions at play that are so difficult to answer and ideology is often used to cushion them.

 

[Platy]

Do the posters here think men and women think the same way? Do men and women not use their gender and position as leverage? Are sexual dynamics and mechanics seen as being equal between the genders in society or by yourself?

I think this is a sea of grey with no defined answers complicated by whichever society your position it into. There are questions at play that are so difficult to answer and ideology is often used to cushion them.

There is no grey. You chase equality. It is simple.

Men and Women think different. And Straight men and Homosexual Men. Also poor people and rich people think different. And leftist and right .... and brazilians and portuguese. And dc fanboys and marvel fanboys.

You chase equality.

 

[lachesis]

Cultural marxism?

Oh boy...

The term "cultural marxism" is a favorite term among the alt-right and originated from Hitler's tendency to label things he didn't like as "Jewish Marxism".

Labeling something non-economic as a kind of "marxism" is not a good look.

Sorry if my comparison with Feminism and cultural marxism has offended any you. I did not, honest to truth know that alt-right and facists used that term to attack Feminists.

My study of history of feminism, always has mentioned Marxist and Engel's idea on oppressed class and their liberation, and etc. Please feel free to correct me, as I would love to be enlightened, truthfully - and Feminism being so vast in every aspect of life and culture, that's the sole reason that I put "cultural". Incidentally, destroying patriarchy = destroying entire western culture fits in that "cultural marxism", which I totally understand why some of you more politically affluent folks are offended - so I apologize.

One thing though - that Feminism is very much economic. Women in work force is now a norm. It affects practically everything from how family is now structured, marriage rate and average marrying age, birth rates, standard of living, alimony & child support calculation to personal happiness and fulfillment and all. I always thought it has a lot to do with everything modern.

I guess a lot of my questions, indeed are from anti-feminists view that a lot of feminist is think it's nonsense or its to tarnish the movement - In my humble point of view, it's necessary to explain or debunk it on every front with facts, if one wants to justify their righteousness, good, bad and ugly and all. Being around seeing bunch of journalists for 20 years, (although I am not one) - and seeing "agenda" driven journalism of late, such as "fake news". I feel compelled to find out why and why not.

For what's worth - I have stopped going to any of MRM sites (only two that is - avfm and mgtow) from the night I started posting this thread. Not sure if I would any more. But the questions that I have, I would like to be answered. Not from biased MRM sites but from Feminist themselves. However the info is hard to come by. Any slightest hint of negativity leads to other side, which I don't want to click.

Feminism is such a vast movement, and I do feel rather lost with no identity, where no one seems to want or share those answers to my question, only the empty promise of "equality will solve all men's problems too". As naive as I am, also a simple man as I am... I would love to know the answers.

http://isj.org.uk/marxism-and-feminism-today/

This article is from International Socialism Journal in U.K. and seems to shed some light in my question on "their" stance - but not from the other way around.


The section that I found interesting was the Idealism / Materialism and Engels

Demonstrating that women's oppression is rooted in how the structure of the family grew with the rise of class society and was not a feature of previous societies is vital to our analysis of how to fight. It can be the hardest point to win. It is counterintuitive. It is much easier to accept that the way we work, live and organise our personal lives is the way it has always been and that we can only tweak it. For example, Redfern and Aune suggest that ”men need to be willing to drop some hours of paid work to take up care for their families, and workplaces need to adapt to flexible working hours". 51 But all this does is move the burden around and, of course, it is no answer to women who are single parents.

So even for feminists who acknowledge the role class plays, who accept that capitalism is a problem and who see a role for working class struggle, the failure to understand the material roots of women's oppression leads to the twin track approach: one struggle against exploitation, and another against oppression and patriarchy. Today, however, patriarchy is rarely fully theorised and is more often just used as a description of a situation where women are discriminated against.

Also the following "The Family Today" section:

Today, although the majority of women are not solely dedicated to giving birth and raising children, the role of the family still has enormous economic and ideological benefits for the system: economic because individual families undertake the entire costs of bring up the next generation; ideological because families are encouraged to see themselves as atomised, self-contained units where, if you are poor or unemployed, you blame yourself rather than racism in society, economic crisis or education cuts.

The family is also seen by many as a haven from a brutal world that otherwise treats each of us as a mere cog in the impersonal system. The family can be the one place where we can expect and receive unconditional love and support. Family life is eulogised in the media, advertising and popular culture. References to ”hardworking families" were a constant refrain during the general election from politicians of all the main parties.

Marriage is still portrayed as the ultimate aspiration for women. Despite generations of women being a part of the workforce, the home is still assumed to be the woman's sphere. It is she who must juggle work, shopping, housework and childcare in order to fulfil society's (and often her own) expectations of her ”natural" role. This leads to women often accepting low paid or part-time jobs that fit round school hours and holidays, for example.

At all times the state supports and reinforces this ”traditional" view of gender division, with men also expected to fulfil expectations of being the provider. The Tories want to offer tax breaks for couples who marry because they are worried by the trend of people rejecting compliance with the traditional family unit. Women have children later than ever before. Some choose to remain childless. Since the 1970s there has been a fall in the proportion of babies born to women aged under 25 in England and Wales, from 47 percent (369,600 live births) in 1971 to 25 percent (180,700 live births) in 2008.53

While traditional ideas about the family do not fit the reality of society today, their resilience reflects the fact that the it has survived as a dominant social structure, despite many profound changes in how we live and work. It serves an important purpose in maintaining and justifying the status quo. This is the material bedrock for the ideas about women that permeate society.

I thought it was interesting perspective. Some that I agreed and some I have no idea what she's talking about!

But either case. I don't want to be dismissive of anyone of any religion or any gender, or any ideology - even if I don't agree with it at all. I do find most fascinating & study about them and the conflicts within, and see their point of view. All the generation struggles of Feminism, really fascinated me too - of how 2nd gen was criticized of putting femininity below masculinity by 3rd gens, in pursuit of power.

The reason I most respect about Feminism, is that they have "method" of achieving what they want, albeit they differ from faction to faction, generation to generation - all wanting the same thing, Women's equality. But I would like to know the whole spectrum of dismantling "patriarchy" and its consequences in layman's term - such as if all the state is mandated to have free child care for working single mothers and fathers (if that's something they are envisioning) - how will it affect my tax rate type of thing. (Heck, right now I pay $17,000 in property tax. Yes, Bergen county sucks for property tax)

 

[Platy]

For what's worth - I have stopped going to any of MRM sites (only two that is - avfm and mgtow) from the night I started posting this thread. Not sure if I would any more. But the questions that I have, I would like to be answered. Not from biased MRM sites but from Feminist themselves. However the info is hard to come by. Any slightest hint of negativity leads to other side, which I don't want to click.

Care to put your questions as simple...questions ?
Like "why do birds suddenly appear?" Instead of paragraphs of subliminal mentions to those questions?

 

[lachesis]

Care to put your questions as simple...questions ?
Like "why do birds suddenly appear?" Instead of paragraphs of subliminal mentions to those questions?

LOL. After seeing that rant up there, yeah. I get it. I'll just name a few.

1. Are you a capitalist, or socialist/communist? What makes you think Feminism would work best in your choice economic system, considering all the effect of women in workforce is now a norm?

2. What is your position on religion & the morality that it preaches, in regards to patriarchy, and how will you approach it to promote gender equality and why do you think your method would work the best?

3. What is your take on male-female or sexual attraction, and monogamous marriage that is norm in current society?

4. Do you believe in sex workers right to perform, or should it be banned for it promotes objectification of sex?

Just a few things for thoughts.

 

[Platy]

Trying not to make a wall of text for each

1. Are you a capitalist, or socialist/communist? What makes you think Feminism would work best in your choice economic system, considering all the effect of women in workforce is now a norm?

I rather have a mix of capitalism and socialism ... like capitalistic society but with huge focus on goverment help like basic income, free healthcare and other stuff.

I think feminism has nothing to do with economic systems. In an ideal feminist world the effect women and men have on the workforce would be basically the same. This changes nothing in any economic system.

Same work options, no harassment at work, big maternity AND paternity leave (which lots of people don't think much, but equality in maternity/paternity leave actually helps women to be hired more!), no pay gap ... society not finding weird if men choose to be a stay at home dad.

2. What is your position on religion & the morality that it preaches, in regards to patriarchy, and how will you approach it to promote gender equality and why do you think your method would work the best?

As long as people understand religous texts were written thousands years ago and society changes, it is all fine. If some religious can accept evolution than they can accept to ignore the "don't sit next to a women who is on her period" they can accept even non binary people =P

3. What is your take on male-female or sexual attraction, and monogamous marriage that is norm in current society?

Work for some people, don't work for others. As long as the rules are clear and everyone is happy and consenting, people can do whatever they want.

4. Do you believe in sex workers right to perform, or should it be banned for it promotes objectification of sex?

Prostitution is the only line of work that instead of asking for better work conditions people ask to ban it.
Objectification of the sexual act is not a problem.
The problem is when women is objectified, but with better working conditions it would be like saying that a plumber objectifies men.

 

[Chorazin]

Divorce / Adultery - that in sexually liberated society - such thing shouldn't even be an issue, I think... Adultery of women, especially - is shunned upon - because gender inequality and patriarchy's inherit view of owning a woman as if she's her property. So I ask, in feminism, what would be like to live as a man and woman, and to date or court, or how to have baby. Men with serene mind of zero masculinity approaching female, or the other way around? All kinds of weird thoughts and imaginations here..

I feel like you're stuck on the idea that Feminist Equality means than men are the same as women, instead of the true goal which is men and women are equal.

Equality is that women has the same rights and treatment men receive and vice versa. Men can be rugged and "manly" as much as a woman can assume masculine traits, or feminine as they wish. A man doesn't have to, as you say, posses "Men with serene mind of zero masculinity" in a truly equal society, men would not won't allow that to turn toxic like our currently culture of toxic masculinity that spawns such thinking as "she was dressed like she wanted it", "you OWE me sex after I bought dinner", "she said no during sex when I wanted anal but I did it anyways, why is she saying it was rape?", "real men don't cry or have emotions", and so on.

 

[lachesis]

Thank you Platy for your input. The more info that I get from more people, I think it would help me to identify things within my mind, so I really appreciate it very much.

I rather have a mix of capitalism and socialism ... like capitalistic society but with huge focus on goverment help like basic income, free healthcare and other stuff.

I am with same line here (hence Bernie supporter). To Feminism to flourish, we need a lot of welfare, so heavy dose of Socialism is pretty much a necessary thing - including paid parental leaves for both mother and father and all. Thing is, the thing called "capitalism" and human greed, is always in the way. Honestly, I would pay gladly of 50% in Tax - if I could trust government and its running was transparent and fair. To feminist to succeed, IMHO, they should be united in the political front.

I think feminism has nothing to do with economic systems. In an ideal feminist world the effect women and men have on the workforce would be basically the same. This changes nothing in any economic system.

This I have to disagree. It is an economic movement in large. Feminists for a long time have been saying that all women should be independent from their oppressor. To do so, working and having a career is a must to self-support themselves. Thats why Feminists value women in work force. That's why Feminists bring up gender pay-gap. After all, without $$$, how can we achieve gender equality if one gender has to be dependent on another? Our society have changed from most women staying home to most women working. It's basically double the labor force. It changed everything in economic system, wouldn't you agree?

Same work options, no harassment at work, big maternity AND paternity leave (which lots of people don't think much, but equality in maternity/paternity leave actually helps women to be hired more!), no pay gap ... society not finding weird if men choose to be a stay at home dad.

100% agreed on all front.

As long as people understand religous texts were written thousands years ago and society changes, it is all fine. If some religious can accept evolution than they can accept to ignore the "don't sit next to a women who is on her period" they can accept even non binary people =P

I understand that you are urging the religion to adopt to the current society. Yes - such reforming has been going on, especially a new progressive Pope who seems to embrace more progressive ideas. Not sure of other ones. But in my opinion, they are super hard to move - because the values they believe in, constitute their existence. I think religious group, will probably step back and compromise their belief system as much as they can - but there's certain point that they cannot just go back anymore. I think a lot of anti-feminism, has to do with that. Not just bigotry or whatnot - but it's the core belief they hold dear, is not compatible with Feminism. Again, the reason I do think Feminism is political ideology is because it deals with "empowerment".

Work for some people, don't work for others. As long as the rules are clear and everyone is happy and consenting, people can do whatever they want.

Very true - I have to admit the question was pretty vague.

Prostitution is the only line of work that instead of asking for better work conditions people ask to ban it.
Objectification of the sexual act is not a problem.
The problem is when women is objectified, but with better working conditions it would be like saying that a plumber objectifies men.

Of course sexual act itself is not the issue - but the act of putting oneself out there, his/her sexuality on display and to be judged by the buyer - isn't it a very definition of objectifying a woman as sexual object, I wonder?

I feel like you're stuck on the idea that Feminist Equality means than men are the same as women, instead of the true goal which is men and women are equal.

Equality is that women has the same rights and treatment men receive and vice versa. Men can be rugged and "manly" as much as a woman can assume masculine traits, or feminine as they wish. A man doesn't have to, as you say, posses "Men with serene mind of zero masculinity" in a truly equal society, men would not won't allow that to turn toxic like our currently culture of toxic masculinity that spawns such thinking as "she was dressed like she wanted it", "you OWE me sex after I bought dinner", "she said no during sex when I wanted anal but I did it anyways, why is she saying it was rape?", "real men don't cry or have emotions", and so on.

Well, earlier Feminists - certainly 2nd gens got their criticism again on this point, and has made a lot of folks equating Feminism being bra-burning and armpit hair and all. In layman's term - while in the process of achieving equality, they acted "masculine" Some of them, in my understanding at least, have saw the gender equality = literal equal to each other - including male and female mentality.

As you know, that idea was opposed by 3rd gens - and 3rd gen included whole slew of other issues, including LGBT and minorities... on which, is actually where I am lost in feminist ideology front. (too varied, and looks like it's lost quite a bit of focus) - Can Beyonce, really be a feminist when she's selling her "sexual" image in front of millions people on national TV? I know modern feminists say it's okay to embrace femininity within themselves.

Yet, I've heard many times of this Toxic Masculinity and what they are.. but what exactly constitutes "good masculinity" without being oxymoron... Do feminists also fight "toxic femininity" if there's such thing? Many anti-feminist men, seem to find this therm is another ploy of feminists painting men as bad people, and encouraging men to "feminize" - open up and talk about their feelings (more feminine trait).

Things you've mentioned - such as expecting sex after paying for a date, or whatever - I personally never have done because it's not "decent" thing to do - so I don't really understand why men would do that - after all, I'm a PC Beta male. - But I would love to find out what feminist has to say about "good masculinity" in terms of gender equality.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Not sure why I'm humouring this but... just in the minor chance that there's a shred of intellectual honestly left...

LOL. After seeing that rant up there, yeah. I get it. I'll just name a few.

1. Are you a capitalist, or socialist/communist? What makes you think Feminism would work best in your choice economic system, considering all the effect of women in workforce is now a norm?

2. What is your position on religion & the morality that it preaches, in regards to patriarchy, and how will you approach it to promote gender equality and why do you think your method would work the best?

3. What is your take on male-female or sexual attraction, and monogamous marriage that is norm in current society?

4. Do you believe in sex workers right to perform, or should it be banned for it promotes objectification of sex?

Just a few things for thoughts.

1. The best system we have so far, not just for women's status but for higher quality of life for everyone in general, is a strongly regulated capitalism economy with socialist measures as safety nets, as found in social democratic societies like Canada and Scandinavia.

2. Religion is mostly garbage. I am fine with freedom of religious beliefs, but if your beliefs start shaping the way you see the world and as a result, start impacting other people lives, then your beliefs have better be evidence-based, or they can fuck off. As for feminism in all that, well, it's simple: religious beliefs that are based on patriarchy are not compatible with equality and feminism, and have no place in modern society. Gender equality will always, always be a more important issue than "tradition" or "religion". Something being traditional does not give it inherent value; traditions are discarded and abandoned all the time, as they should.

3. Freely consenting adults can do whatever the fuck they want, so long as they don't hurt others. It's really that simple.

4. Sex workers who are not being exploited (due to vulnerabilities such as extreme poverty, being blackmailed etc.) should be free to practice their work legally and safely.

 

[Chorazin]

Yet, I've heard many times of this Toxic Masculinity and what they are.. but what exactly constitutes "good masculinity" without being oxymoron... Do feminists also fight "toxic femininity" if there's such thing? Many anti-feminist men, seem to find this therm is another ploy of feminists painting men as bad people, and encouraging men to "feminize" - open up and talk about their feelings (more feminine trait).

Things you've mentioned - such as expecting sex after paying for a date, or whatever - I personally never have done because it's not "decent" thing to do - so I don't really understand why men would do that - after all, I'm a PC Beta male. - But I would love to find out what feminist has to say about "good masculinity" in terms of gender equality.

Talking about your feelings isn't "feminine" it's just good fucking mental health. Why bottle up everything inside?

"Good masculinity" is being a man and treating women as equal people: not objects, not lesser, not anything other than another person who is equal to you. You wanna be male and knit, sew, make clothes, bake, other "women's work" why can't you? You can still be a man and masculine. You can also be a man and get ripped from working out all day, embrace physicality, and you're still a man and masculine. Once you take your masculinity and use it to de-person a woman that's when it becomes toxic.

It's easy to understand why a man can think those things; they treat women as objects to possess. Calling yourself a "PC Beta male" or whatever doesn't change how easy that is to grasp. You can be a confident male and not feel that way very easily, confidence and being a decent human being are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It amazes me how people so clearly misunderstand the term "toxic masculinity".

Toxic masculinity refers to a specific thing. It's not a qualifier of all forms of masculinity, it simply addresses a specific form of it that happens to be toxic.

It's like if I were to make an article about "the bad movies of 2017", and you think "but what about the good movies? why don't you talk about those?". Like... because... I'm talking about the bad movies... duh?

 

[EdibleKnife]

Of course sexual act itself is not the issue - but the act of putting oneself out there, his/her sexuality on display and to be judged by the buyer - isn't it a very definition of objectifying a woman as sexual object, I wonder?

Men and women can be prostitutes. Men and women can both display themselves as sexual beings to be desired. The point is their agency. Agency means that despite being objectified they arenot just objects They are not fleshlights or dildos to just be used without their own regard. They are the clerk in a mutual transaction. They decide how the encounter goes, they decide who they get to go to bed with. Which is more that being treated like an object where anyone who finds them attractive is free to fondle, leer or worse yet assault them without their own agency as a person being taken into account. Feminism has no issue with someone finding a woman sexy but rather reducing a woman's value and existence singlely to her sex appeal. Same for men.

Yet, I've heard many times of this Toxic Masculinity and what they are.. but what exactly constitutes "good masculinity" without being oxymoron...

Non-toxic Masculinity or Positive manhood:
Not treating sex as a prize to be won
Not valuing sex as a primary goal of achieving manhood or virginity as a symbol of an inherent failing
Embracing vulnerability rather than hiding it as well as self-reflection
Granting the same weight or value to opinions no matter if they come from a fellow man or a woman/aka. A willingness to learn and listen to other perspectives
Leadership
Purpose
Valuing the humanity and personhood of other people
Judgment between right and wrong
Protectiveness
Use of labels such as protective and nurturing rather than simply "manly" or "feminine"

There are multitudes of people who are men that aren't simply rugged, self-opinionated and hungry for sex. There are men who are nurses or caregivers who enjoy that work immensely, there are men who find satisfaction in being thin or plump. There are men who desire other men or both women and men. There are men who expose their emotions more. There are men who don't place enormous value on sex. Toxic masculinity pigeonholes men into a narrow set of ideals mostly focused on domination, low emotionality, and power. The strict cultural adherence to aspects of toxic masculinity results in men who either don't fit in, stifle themselves, or even violently rebel when they fail to reach the high bar set by our culture (see: Elliot Rodger). And you may notice that many of these qualities could apply to women as much as men aka. there are of course women with leadership skills, there are of course women with drive and purpose and know the diffrence between right and wrong; which is the entire point and leads to a larger spectrum of personalities and attitudes to exist without being curtailed by rigid "social norms or expectations" particularly ones that praise selfishness and the objectification of others as paramount.

 

[benicillin]

.

Not to insinuate anything but for someone who claims to be asking questions and is relatively new or uninformed about this you seem to have a very clear and somewhat rigid ideology.

 

[Devildoll]

Even if Sweden is seen as this "near utopian feminist country", it's not going to change discrimination or racism there. Feminism doesn't cover every issue. There are quite a few neo nazi organisations there. Swedes are definitely not a fan of muslims and jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Sweden

Best to just focus on the reality than hypotheticals for now.

I get slightly offended at the notion that we are no fan of Muslims or Jews in Sweden.
That is a pretty hard exaggeration if you ask me.

The largest group of neo-nazis, NMR, had about 160 members in 2015.
as a whole, they got about 500 participants in their most recent march.
To put the numbers into perspective, we recently passed 10 million citizens in Sweden.

So regarding what you say about there being quite a few neo nazi organizations here, they don't represent the country to any larger extent at all.

It is not like considerable amount of swedes go around hating jews, in fact, most of is probably done by others than actual swedes.

In general, people don't care about what religion you have here,the specific individual, and what they do is way more interesting.

 

[Sunster]

Care to put your questions as simple...questions ?
Like "why do birds suddenly appear?" Instead of paragraphs of subliminal mentions to those questions?

I wish this advice could be added to the ToS.

 

[lachesis]

Not sure why I'm humouring this but... just in the minor chance that there's a shred of intellectual honestly left...

2. Religion is mostly garbage. I am fine with freedom of religious beliefs, but if your beliefs start shaping the way you see the world and as a result, start impacting other people lives, then your beliefs have better be evidence-based, or they can fuck off. As for feminism in all that, well, it's simple: religious beliefs that are based on patriarchy are not compatible with equality and feminism, and have no place in modern society. Gender equality will always, always be a more important issue than "tradition" or "religion". Something being traditional does not give it inherent value; traditions are discarded and abandoned all the time, as they should.

Not sure why you'd think my questioning is agenda driven - but I assure you, that these questioning are for the curiosity only, and mostly for self reflection. and I do thank you for your input.

Anyhow, I thought your #2 being the most interesting part. As I mentioned on the other one up there - but this is their core belief system, outdated it may be. If feminists do believe in eradication of religion and its core values - followers of such religion would stand up against it, as many of them are doing. Us vs them, divisive and hurtful. Shouldn't both side to take back seat and discuss to come up with compromise like most things in democratic society? At some point, it does sound like religion vs religion when I see the both side fighting.

It amazes me how people so clearly misunderstand the term "toxic masculinity".

Toxic masculinity refers to a specific thing. It's not a qualifier of all forms of masculinity, it simply addresses a specific form of it that happens to be toxic.

It's like if I were to make an article about "the bad movies of 2017", and you think "but what about the good movies? why don't you talk about those?". Like... because... I'm talking about the bad movies... duh?

I think a lot of it has to be in the naming. It could be more in line of "toxic traits of masculinity", rather than "toxic masculinity" - as one normally associate masculinity is a "package" and it does seem like calling it the whole package. Different from "movies" - that people instantly recognize "movies" as plural, and there are hundreds of movies released every year.

The reason I say about good traits of Masculinity. Some people, like myself, like to see the enforcement of good things told, not the bad things. Not to ignore the bad ones - should be told - but good ones should be told as much as bad ones, equally. It's easy to find examples of toxic masculinity, it's difficult to find good list of masculinity or at least somewhat confusing.

I'll give you an example.

In Sweden where Feminism is the mainstream, I heard that if a woman is carrying a heavy object and managing it - for a man to voluntarily offer a helping hand is considered offensive to the woman, that it's considered that the man is considering the woman not being able to handle the job herself. (I guess that's an unintentionally toxic one.)

In my case, that specific one is little bit confusing. I work in NYC, and during my commute, it's not very uncommon to see a lady (often an older one or single mother) with large package, or stroller or whatnot. She is moving along, struggling a bit - and I do always offer help (showing off my masculinity, and compassion) without expecting anything in return. If the she says "thank you" makes me feel like I did something good for the day.

Of course anything "rape" or "violence" against woman's will is toxic trait of masculinity. I get that - but the reason I would like to see of specific "good" ones, is to confirm and encourage myself for such traits on feminism's view - because I never thought of mansplaning was a male privilege. (unfortunately I'm more on the other end of spectrum, though. )

Anyhow, thank you for you input.

 

[lachesis]

Not to insinuate anything but for someone who claims to be asking questions and is relatively new or uninformed about this you seem to have a very clear and somewhat rigid ideology.

Yes, I am very interested in ideological and theology of things - fundamentals and what drives them. Relgion, Economics, Political Ideologies and all. And I welcome that if my knowledge is biased and all - please feel free to enlighten me. And for one, criticism of Feminism itself, those questions have been with me for about 3 years or so, when my wife said her views of Marriage being an institution of oppression - so it spiraled all from that. (not blaming her - but it got me thinking.) My ideological thinking is much older though - I was always thinking of the mindset of all types of political ideologies from democracy, autocracy, socialism, capitalism, marxism, etc etc - since early days in college. As per feminism though - I never really thought of it as a political ideology till 3 years ago. I just thought of it as a human rights issue - till I studied the history of feminism movement, and all fell into the place along with my decade long thinking of other ideologies. Probably that's why you think I have clear, rigid ideology - but in real life, not really. I personally consider myself a socialist who doesn't want to pay taxes. (LOL)

---------

On unrelated subject and getting back to this "Toxic Masculinity" that many have told me...

I found an interesting idea and something that I agree in most part at "Good Men Project" that I just found on non-toxic masculinity. (yes, slow workday)
[URL="https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/creating-a-non-toxic-masculinity-lbkr/[/URL]

I am in line with the author, that we need to come up with non-toxic version and teach boys. Some of the traits were mentioned above by EdibleKnife (Thank you for listing) as best parts of traditional masculinity - he added something else, "being able to do what's right even at your emotional cost"... Interesting, indeed.

Not sure if I agree with the idea of replacing the name "protector" and "nurturer" than masculine & feminine - or perhaps my mind is already too sexist & rigid - that I instantly connect them with male and female.

But anyhow, I will probably phase out from now on.
Not that I appreciate your inputs and all - but this whole thing is really getting into my head, while I am in the middle of divorce, need to vacate my house by 28th of July, find a new house & settle down, start and budget a new life with my daughter... I should just focus on the current situation than constantly thinking what ifs and all, as many have mentioned. I will not visit any more gender politics sites - neither pro feminism nor anti, and definitely no MRA for my own good.

And I feel like I hijacked this thread from its original intention of discussing The Red Pill movie, which I understand many don't want to discuss.

Maybe if some other "feminism" or "criticism of feminism" in practical, constructive & theological manner, rather than agenda driven...,if there ever is... than I will jump in. Hopefully by then, I would be more educated in all areas, especially in life itself.

I appreciate everyone for their input, and some support and some kind words, and even scornful ones.

 

[EdibleKnife]

On unrelated subject and getting back to this "Toxic Masculinity" that many have told me...

I found an interesting idea and something that I agree in most part at "Good Men Project" that I just found on non-toxic masculinity. (yes, slow workday)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1367716&page=14

I am in line with the author, that we need to come up with non-toxic version and teach boys. Some of the traits were mentioned above by EdibleKnife (Thank you for listing) as best parts of traditional masculinity - he added something else, "being able to do what's right even at your emotional cost"... Interesting, indeed.

Not sure if I agree with the idea of replacing the name "protector" and "nurturer" than masculine & feminine - or perhaps my mind is already too sexist & rigid - that I instantly connect them with male and female.

You linked to the topic by accident. This is the Good Men Project article. As well as other articles about Toxic Masculinity vs Positive Masculinity:
Dr. Nerdlove: 2, 3, 4
The Atlantic


And yes, internalizing "protective and nurturing" and dropping "feminine and masculine" as qualifiers for people's behaviors is a journey for yourself. Start by asking what you consider feminine or masculine traits and why you categorize them that way. We're not talking about whether someone has a uterus or a penis, grows chest hair or has breasts. We're talking about personality traits and behaviors or individual people. It's not meant to be perfect but to drag people away from qualifying something feminine as a negative in a man because of its connotation to being female.

 

[lachesis]

You linked to the topic by accident. This is the Good Men Project article. As well as other articles about Toxic Masculinity vs Positive Masculinity:
Dr. Nerdlove: 2, 3, 4
The Atlantic


And yes, internalizing "protective and nurturing" and dropping "feminine and masculine" as qualifiers for people's behaviors is a journey for yourself. Start by asking what you consider feminine or masculine traits and why you categorize them that way. We're not talking about whether someone has a uterus or a penis, grows chest hair or has breasts. We're talking about personality traits and behaviors or individual people. It's not meant to be perfect but to drag people away from qualifying something feminine as a negative in a man because of its connotation to being female.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, that article.

And thank you for the other articles. Yes, I love Cap, on many fronts. (Can't still believe his actually Hydra)
I never really grew up with american comic books, and when I saw Cap movie - I really really started to admire his personality. Something.. clicked with me. Old fashioned, polite, confident and never to be underestimated in his aura. It would give me something to think over the weekend - and thank you

As per masculinity and femininity - in real life I don't really think about it. I never really consciously think "oh, because I am a man, I should do this" or not - but I do tend to have a lot of endurance in emotional distress. (Lost 35 lbs during this whole saga though - never been this thin since high school days)

And to be honest, I always 'admired" feminine traits. nurturing, caring and all, instead of looking down. looking up was more likely term.

 

[Platy]

I am with same line here (hence Bernie supporter). To Feminism to flourish, we need a lot of welfare, so heavy dose of Socialism is pretty much a necessary thing - including paid parental leaves for both mother and father and all. Thing is, the thing called "capitalism" and human greed, is always in the way. Honestly, I would pay gladly of 50% in Tax - if I could trust government and its running was transparent and fair. To feminist to succeed, IMHO, they should be united in the political front.

This I have to disagree. It is an economic movement in large. Feminists for a long time have been saying that all women should be independent from their oppressor. To do so, working and having a career is a must to self-support themselves. Thats why Feminists value women in work force. That's why Feminists bring up gender pay-gap. After all, without $$$, how can we achieve gender equality if one gender has to be dependent on another? Our society have changed from most women staying home to most women working. It's basically double the labor force. It changed everything in economic system, wouldn't you agree?

It would not change much.
It would still be capitalism. Would still be money in trade for goods. Sweet in trade for blings.

Socialism would still be socialism if women is treated equal than men.
Feudalism would still be feudalism if women is treated equal than men.
even Pompoarism would still be Pompoarism if women is treated equal then men because transfeminism. And that is not even an economic system !

Feminists value the workforce because the pathriarchy is against women working, but feminists value more than anything the fact that women can have a CHOICE if they want to work insanely and fuck the family OR focus on the house cleaning and taking care of the cats kids.
THIS is what "women should be independent from their oppressor." means. IF they are married to a (wo)men who is not oppresing her and is living happly at home by choice.... what is the problem ?

Unless you are like those crazy rad fems who believe that every heterosexual relationship is rape and therefore women must do the political choice of being stricltly homosexuals.

But, it has been long shown that they are crazy.

 

[Media]

I know I'm likely late to the party, but I'm a female feminist that is very vocal about some of the things you mentioned in your first post here. Family law is scewed and needs to be addressed, male rape is so stigmtized by the 'be a man about it!' mentality that it's vastly under reported, and female pedophiles, at least if their pretty, are not nearly as villified as male pedophiles, and make suicide rates are insanely high because men are taught to bottle their emotions.

I also believe all of these things are a thing because of very toxic social expectations on maculinity.

In all my years online, I haven't seen one men's rights group actually work to try and fix these things. They seem to exist to blame their problems on feminism and hate on women. They do talk about the problems, but not in a context of fixing it, more of blaming it on feminism.

If the genders were equal, which is the goal of feminism, those issues would be addressed as well.

 

[Kyzer]

belittled and ridiculed them in a way that I usually associate with toxic masculinity.

So being an asshole is a male thing?

 

[lachesis]

It would not change much.
It would still be capitalism. Would still be money in trade for goods. Sweet in trade for blings.

Socialism would still be socialism if women is treated equal than men.
Feudalism would still be feudalism if women is treated equal than men.
even Pompoarism would still be Pompoarism if women is treated equal then men because transfeminism. And that is not even an economic system !

Feminists value the workforce because the pathriarchy is against women working, but feminists value more than anything the fact that women can have a CHOICE if they want to work insanely and fuck the family OR focus on the house cleaning and taking care of the cats kids.
THIS is what "women should be independent from their oppressor." means. IF they are married to a (wo)men who is not oppresing her and is living happly at home by choice.... what is the problem ?

Unless you are like those crazy rad fems who believe that every heterosexual relationship is rape and therefore women must do the political choice of being stricltly homosexuals.

But, it has been long shown that they are crazy.

I certainly see where you are coming from. Partially I agree on what you say - but I still do believe Feminism has changed the economic scope. Initiated and insisted by 2nd gen radical feminists to liberate women from men who have power over them through money. Women achieved right to "work" many decades ago. (Still a lot of inequality, but they have choice now. Definitely step into the right direction.) It's not the matter of whether a woman work insane amount of hours above family, or to stay home and take care of cats () anymore.

Women's movement for financial independence - it has backfired - that now we have slew of qualifying people available on labor force, almost double. Captalism 101 - that demand & supply. Our capitalism sucked up the plenty labor force for cheaper price. If you look at the average median income of middle class family, it's very stagnant over several decades, if not decreased. Our super capitalist society has made greatest income disparity between top and bottom - and yes, women joining the labor force also has alot to do with it. I am not blaming women for joining work force. But I do blame the system.

Really, for these days - do you have really a choice of being a stay-at-home mother or stay-at-home father? For most people, I highly doubt that. Joint income is almost a must. That's real oppression IMHO - and that's a separate one from unequal domestic unpaid labor.

Perhaps in the future, technological advancement would relieve some of the mundane domestic labor issues, and solve some issues of having enough time for "family".... but the fundamental issue lies in economic system and what type of policies we have.

True, that many of socialist ideology I've mentioned - is indeed from 2nd gen feminists - the ones you call "crazy rad fems". I do not agree 100% of their rhetoric, but one thing I do admire, is they had clear vision of how to achieve it. Something that lacks on current gen, which seems to focus on the ideal, rather than "how".

 

[lachesis]

I get slightly offended at the notion that we are no fan of Muslims or Jews in Sweden.
That is a pretty hard exaggeration if you ask me.

The largest group of neo-nazis, NMR, had about 160 members in 2015.
as a whole, they got about 500 participants in their most recent march.
To put the numbers into perspective, we recently passed 10 million citizens in Sweden.

So regarding what you say about there being quite a few neo nazi organizations here, they don't represent the country to any larger extent at all.

It is not like considerable amount of swedes go around hating jews, in fact, most of is probably done by others than actual swedes.

In general, people don't care about what religion you have here,the specific individual, and what they do is way more interesting.

Thank you for your point. I am very much interested in "religion" in Sweden and very much intrigued by you comment on their stance on religion. Perhaps it might be difficult to tell since you are the insider - but do you think the religious leaders of Sweden, have different rhetoric compared to other western countries?

 

[IsntChrisL]

It's a propaganda movie that glosses over the awful things the people it it have done and said. It's as balanced as Fox News. You should check out http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com to see what these people are actually like.

By pitting MRAs (a niche group) against "feminists" (a huge group with many, many niches and varieties), you are making a big logical error... they are not directly comparable.

Well I already addressed this. You can probably spend a great deal of time detailing the sins of many of these people. Hell, the movie opens with a montage of the bullshit MRA's have propagated. Very similar to the material of the site you linked. I'm speaking beyond the person though. Imagine you were simply reading the words on a book with a nameless author. Focus on the idea.

I'm sure there's a lot you could contest in this movie but most of it would turn into personal attacks. There's clearly a real issue with the societal expectations, suicide rates, and education of males in America. That doesn't mean the issues of women don't matter or are any less important. If Milo Yiafuckoffpolis said that 2+2=4 are you going to suddenly disagree? Of course not. Unless of course you have a legitimate reason to say that men don't need more guidance and empathy on these matters. But that's a tough point to try to make without trying to shift the focus to the plight of women. We all have our own cross to bear.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Anyhow, I thought your #2 being the most interesting part. As I mentioned on the other one up there - but this is their core belief system, outdated it may be. If feminists do believe in eradication of religion and its core values - followers of such religion would stand up against it, as many of them are doing. Us vs them, divisive and hurtful. Shouldn't both side to take back seat and discuss to come up with compromise like most things in democratic society? At some point, it does sound like religion vs religion when I see the both side fighting.

Don't care one bit if a few religious fuckwits get butthurt at their regressive beliefs being left behind because of progress. Religions have reformed and adapted to modern sensibilities repeatedly. They can keep doing so, or they can remain on the wrong side of history if they insist (and if so, they can fuck off as far as I'm concerned). Most mainstream modern Christians no longer require wives to be submissive to their husbands, for example. More and more Christians are totally fine with homosexuality. Those that aren't, well, they will either be forced to adjust, or be left behind.

 

[Devildoll]

Thank you for your point. I am very much interested in "religion" in Sweden and very much intrigued by you comment on their stance on religion. Perhaps it might be difficult to tell since you are the insider - but do you think the religious leaders of Sweden, have different rhetoric compared to other western countries?

Unfortunately i don't keep up with what our religious leaders say, nor the ones in other European countries, so i have no clue on how they might compare rhetorically, sorry.

 

[lachesis]

Unfortunately i don't keep up with what our religious leaders say, nor the ones in other European countries, so i have no clue on how they might compare rhetorically, sorry.

No need for apologizing. I really appreciate getting back to me. Since I am interested all aspects in Feminism as a political & economical ideology in daily lives of ordinary folks - I look into Sweden quite often. Of course, your region has unique geological location, economy and all, I always wondered if north european model would really work on U.S. or other countries. Of course, wherever people leave - they are basically all same - we all eat, breathe and try find happiness - but all the subtle differences in every culture and how they perceive it, really fascinates me.

I also am very interested in Swedish stance on prostitution - and several other European countries are trying to adopt Swedish model, and have seen protests and all. I always tend to see both sides of coins - certainly see the merits of Swedish model, yet also see the point who opposes it.

Anyhow, thanks again for getting back.