Support NeoGAF

[Roders5]

Star Wars is boring af

Jesus we're really getting to pathetic levels of posting now.

Yes, the movie series that has retained record levels of popularity for 40 years, that has been viewed billions of times, was boring all along and nobody figured it out. Until you.

Edit: I spoke too soon, it's getting even worse

She's masturbatory girl power fantasy.

 

[Principate]

Kylo's not as strong as Vader. Also not a Sith Lord. Also not fully trained. Also injured and a bit fucked up mentally after killing his dad.

All Sith are emotionall fucked up. They wouldn't be Sith of they weren't. Palpatine was known for torturing some of his apprentices.

 

[elrechazado]

No, he doesn't.

Luke literally goes from not knowing about the force to making an impossible shot in a couple of days, tops.

Wamp rats are smaller

 

[Vice]

She's masturbatory girl power fantasy. Beating a trained sith who can stop laser shots dead on their tracks was beyond ridiculous, injured or not.

What is wrong with being a female power fantasy. The protagonists of most blockbusters are male power fantasies after all.

And, we do not know how well trained Kyle Ren is, just that his training had not been completed He was also injured by a weapon we had seen kill armored opponents instantly several time and was emotionally unstable due to sadness, anger and a bit of jealousy.
And before that Rey had been shown as a capable melee fighter and lightsaber use was shown as pretty intuitive by Finn earlier.

 

[DeathyBoy]

She's masturbatory girl power fantasy. Beating a trained sith who can stop laser shots dead on their tracks was beyond ridiculous, injured or not.

Men have had masturbatoey power fantasies for decades. Why the fuck is it so objectionable for little girls and young woman to have a female character to look up to?

Times like these are when I actually hate Star Wars fans. Self entitled brats who see ONE female character who isn't a sexist stereotype, and freak the fuck out.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

As if Vader isn't also fucked up. rey was also injured during that fight. She still beat him despite having no training. That was ridiculous.

I meant specifically during the duel. He's fighting for his grandad's old lightsaber right after impaling his dad and I don't think it had the effect he was hoping for.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

All Sith are emotionall fucked up. They wouldn't be Sith of they weren't. Palpatine was known for torturing some of his apprentices.

Naw Maul had his shit together. GL just decided to give a Fuck You Special on his death. Only Boba Fett got screwed worse.

A fucking burp joke.

 

[Gunslinger]

Naw Maul had his shit together. GL just decided to give a Fuck You Special on his death. Only Boba Fett got screwed worse.

A fucking burp joke.

Didn't he escape the sarlaac in EU?

 

[cuate]

What is wrong with being a female power fantasy. The protagonists of most blockbusters are male power fantasies after all.

And, we do not know how well trained Kyle Ren is, just that his training had not been completed He was also injured by a weapon we had seen kill armored opponents instantly several time and was emotionally unstable due to sadness, anger and a bit of jealousy.
And before that Rey had been shown as a capable melee fighter and lightsaber use was shown as pretty intuitive by Finn earlier.

He was effortlessly dominating rey until the movie decided rey had to win. Then he suddenly becomes a scared kitten. That was bullshit.

 

[- J - D -]

The Last Jedi has a low bar of expectation to clear. That's how I feel about TFA and to a lesser extent Rogue One.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

my shitty argument lol.

I mean this is a pretty succinct summation of it, yeah.

He was effortlessly dominating rey until the movie decided rey had to win. Then he suddenly becomes a scared kitten. That was bullshit.

The raisinhead motherfucker in the gold bathrobe TOLD HIM NOT TO KILL HER.

He's a "scared kitten" because he should be.

You realize you're not supposed to identify with him, right? At that point his seeming scared is a good thing.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

He was effortlessly dominating rey until the movie decided rey had to win. Then he suddenly becomes a scared kitten. That was bullshit.

I just happened to watch the movie again today, and he was not dominating her. Most of the fight was her backing off defensively. She's fighting smart cause she can't really take him head on.

Not to mention he drops his guard cause he wants to convert her.

 

[Roders5]

He was effortlessly dominating rey until the movie decided rey had to win. Then he suddenly becomes a scared kitten. That was bullshit.

You seem like an very angry little person. I can only imagine how much it pisses you off that the world loved TFA.

 

[border]

Train. He didn't beat Vader on his first try.

Luke goes from farm boy to godly expert starfighter pilot with no training. The film makes a point of it to mention that he has had no formal military training in the early scenes where he complains about not being able to go to the academy.

The Death Star was effortlessly dominating until the movie decided that Luke had to win! That was bullshit.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It was more than I was expecting when I clicked the link. Maybe "wow" would have been a better reaction.

I still would have been confused because I don't get how that would inspire a "wow"

Are you surprised I made a twitter thread? (Dunno why you would be)
Are you surprised at the opinions in that twitter thread (dunno why you would be)
Are you surprised that I used this social media account to link to another social media account and that my opinions there are similar to the ones here? (dunno why you would be)

 

[TheOfficeMut]

She's masturbatory girl power fantasy. Beating a trained sith who can stop laser shots dead on their tracks was beyond ridiculous, injured or not.

Kind of curious why this is a fucking problem then, considering men do this shit all the time in movies.

 

[Neophant]

I enjoyed The Force Awakens. Enough to have rewatched it twice since but that would probably be enough for me. I definitely agree that the film had many of its story beats directly inspired from A New Hope because it was a return to the spirit and magic of the OT that people had thought were missing from the prequels. I do hope that Rian Johnson's work with The Last Jedi will able to make it stand alone as it's own film as part of the new trilogy.

I was a little upset that we didn't get to see a continuation of the fall of the Empire from Return of the Jedi, but there is a chance that TLJ can explain exactly what sort of events transpired between ROTJ and TFA to lead into a galaxy-wide climate that seemed very similar to how the Empire had first started in A New Hope. And that film will be coming out in a very few short months.

 

[elrechazado]

Kind of curious why this is a fucking problem then, considering men do this shit all the time in movies.

That's not an argument supporting that it's good writing or character development though, just lazy whataboutism.

 

[kunonabi]

What is wrong with being a female power fantasy. The protagonists of most blockbusters are male power fantasies after all.

And, we do not know how well trained Kyle Ren is, just that his training had not been completed He was also injured by a weapon we had seen kill armored opponents instantly several time and was emotionally unstable due to sadness, anger and a bit of jealousy.
And before that Rey had been shown as a capable melee fighter and lightsaber use was shown as pretty intuitive by Finn earlier.

Nothing wrong with a female power fantasy. There is just a gigantic gulf in how Anakin and Luke were treated compared to how perfect Rey is and how other characters speak to her compared to Anakin and Luke that makes her stick out in a bad way. There could still be an interesting arc to write in regards to all that but we wont know until the next two movies come out. It could make TFA's depiction worthwhile or they could botch like they did with Korra.

 

[rickyson1]

even watching a movie twice sounds like a lot to me

i've never watched a movie more times than that and can count on one hand the amount ive seen more than once

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Nothing wrong with a female power fantasy. There is just a gigantic gulf in how Anakin and Luke were treated compared to how perfect Rey is and how other characters speak to her compared to Anakin and Luke that makes her stick out in a bad way.

Jesus fucking Christ

Rey is better written and better acted in her debut than either Luke OR Anakin were in theirs.

easily.

If there's any gulf you wanna call out, call out that one.

 

[FutureLarking]

Wamp rats are smaller

This. They do establish already that Luke's a good pilot, and it's most likely that his abilities were augmented by the Force since forever, he just wasn't aware of it. So he just took the shot like he normally would, without some advanced targetting computer and just relying on feel.

Rey on the other hand... Force mind tricks? Alrighty then. The lightsabre fight can be partially explained by her staff abilities, but they really don't focus on Rey enough at all to make it feel earned that she takes on Ren, even if he is injured - a Force user trained not only by Luke Skywalker himself, but also Snoke, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren.

(Which, by the way, is a completely LOL worthy plot point that I'm pretty sure neither Abrams nor Kasadan really cared what the fuck the Knights of Ren were. If Episode 8 were to ignore it entirely I wouldn't be surprised)

I think the main problem is that George himself had in his head a proper idea of what power levels of Jedi should be like and their progression, as well as rules of technology and physics in the universe that he tried to follow in the movies. Abrams and co didn't so much, and instead tried to write for a cool movie rather than something entirely consistent with Star Wars. Can they be blamed for that?

Spoiler

Yes, They should

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Didn't he escape the sarlaac in EU?

I am just counting the films (besides EU got binned).

I still would have been confused because I don't get how that would inspire a "wow"

Are you surprised I made a twitter thread? (Dunno why you would be)
Are you surprised at the opinions in that twitter thread (dunno why you would be)
Are you surprised that I used this social media account to link to another social media account and that my opinions there are similar to the ones here? (dunno why you would be)

Didn't know you had a thread about that specific opinion. I was shocked.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I enjoyed The Force Awakens. Enough to have rewatched it twice since but that would probably be enough for me. I definitely agree that the film had many of its story beats directly inspired from A New Hope because it was a return to the spirit and magic of the OT that people had thought were missing from the prequels. I do hope that Rian Johnson's work with The Last Jedi will able to make it stand alone as it's own film as part of the new trilogy.

I was a little upset that we didn't get to see a continuation of the fall of the Empire from Return of the Jedi, but there is a chance that TLJ can explain exactly what sort of events transpired between ROTJ and TFA to lead into a galaxy-wide climate that seemed very similar to how the Empire had first started in A New Hope. And that film will be coming out in a very few short months.

I wouldn't get your hopes up for this. The fall of the Empire and the transition to the New Republic has been covered in some of the books already. They've got no real reason to go back thirty years and explore that in a two hour film. It does look like we'll get some insight into the fall of Luke's academy a few years before TFA though.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

That's not an argument supporting that it's good writing or character development though, just lazy whataboutism.

That's a good enough argument for me. And we are talking about a universe with planet-sized death weapons, star-eating ships, and a god damn force. Please spare me the idea that Rey learning as quickly as she did is what's too much in these movies.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

This. They do establish already that Luke's a good pilot, and it's most likely that his abilities were augmented by the Force since forever, he just wasn't aware of it. So he just took the shot like he normally would, without some advanced targetting computer and just relying on feel.

I have a hard time believing the post you took at face value wasn't intended as sarcasm.

And even if it wasn't, the miles of benefit of the doubt you're willing to apply to the hero of that space fantasy that you're refusing to offer even a tenth of to a different hero in the same space fantasy doesn't make any sense as any sort of rational decision, to me.

I think one of the bigger problems with Star Wars fans is their reliance on thinking of the force in terms of power levels and rules.

It's not an RPG you're watching someone else play

 

[border]

That's not an argument supporting that it's good writing or character development though, just lazy whataboutism.

At some point you have accept that this is a fantasy series about Chosen Ones who have an innately high level of skill and ability even without training or experience.

Luke is already way beyond what a normal person would be able to accomplish. He becomes a Jedi after training with Yoda for what seems like a week at best.

 

[Glass Rebel]

People just have a really hard time accepting women being good at things.

 

[elrechazado]

At some point you have accept that this is a fantasy series about Chosen Ones who have an innately high level of skill and ability even without training or experience.

Luke is already way beyond what a normal person would be able to accomplish. He becomes a Jedi after training with Yoda for what seems like a week at best.

That's crappy writing too, and oft commented on.

That's a good enough argument for me. And we are talking about a universe with planet-sized death weapons, star-eating ships, and a god damn force. Please spare me the idea that Rey learning as quickly as she did is what's too much in these movies.

Bully for you. I find it to be lacking in an arc with respect to character development. So I'm afraid I can't personally spare you that idea.

 

[Gunslinger]

At some point you have accept that this is a fantasy series about Chosen Ones who have an innately high level of skill and ability even without training or experience.

Luke is already way beyond what a normal person would be able to accomplish. He becomes a Jedi after training with Yoda for what seems like a week at best.

Luke is also the son of the strongest Jedi that ever lived.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

He becomes a Jedi after training with Yoda for what seems like a week at best.

He actually doesn't which Yoda makes clear, Vader makes clear, and then he proceeds to get his ass handed to him.

 

[kunonabi]

Jesus fucking Christ

Rey is better written and better acted in her debut than either Luke OR Anakin were in theirs.

easily.

If there's any gulf you wanna call out, call out that one.

I completely agree with her being a far better actress but that really isnt the point here. Her dialogue is certainly better written but as far as setting up an arc ill take the other two over her even though Anakin's takes far longer to pay dividends.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

People just have a really hard time accepting women being good at things.

"There should be a reason why she's good"
(Reason x, y, z, as pulled from the text of the film proper)
"There should be good reasons why she's good. You know, like Womp Rats. That sort of good storytelling."

I completely agree with her being a far better actress but that really isnt the point here. Her dialogue is certainly better written but as far as setting up an arc ill take the other two over her even though Anakin's takes far longer to pay dividends.

So she's written better, she's better at delivering the dialog she's been written, she's better at emoting, she's a better actor, she's working with better material and she executes it better.

And you guys are wondering why people believe in her character easily?

Maybe the reason you'll take the other two is because you've seen their finished arcs already.

And even if that isn't the reason, why would it matter when I'm directly comparing, one-to-one, their introductions as characters? Even divorcing the rest of their arcs from the equasion, she's still written better and portrayed better as a character than either Luke or Anakin were.

 

[True Savior]

It's not a very enjoyable movie. And Daisy Ridey work is simply hard to go through. She's as awful as Star Wars gets. And this is a franchise known for its less than stellar protagonist actors.

 

[RedSwirl]

Part of me actually hopes the sequel trilogy keeps following the same rough story beats as the OT and PT, if only to keep Lucas's "rhyming" idea going. I think it was a good idea at least.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Daisy Ridey work is simply hard to go through. She's as awful as Star Wars gets.

Jesus Christ

 

[Ristifer]

It's not a very enjoyable movie. And Daisy Ridey work is simply hard to go through. She's as awful as Star Wars gets. And this is a franchise known for its less than stellar protagonist actors.

Lol.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

People just have a really hard time accepting women being good at things.

Nice try.

Who had a problem with Furiosa being a bad ass in a movie her name wasn't even in the title of?

 

[WadiumArcadium]

She's as awful as Star Wars gets.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Who had a problem with Furiosa being a bad ass in a movie her name wasn't even in the title of?

Fuckin lots of people.

It was a whole thing.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Fuckin lots of people.

It was a whole thing.

I don't remember that but ok.

People were losing their minds over Trinity too?

 

[elrechazado]

Jesus Christ

Do you get three cents every time you make this same useless post in a thread? Must be up to a few thousand bucks by now.

 

[Gunslinger]

Furiosa is a better written character than Rey though. Atleast she's a battle hardened bad ass and her actions make sense. I really dig her crew too. Fit right in the Mad Max universe. Rey on the other hand makes no sense. Just a Godlike Jedi without any training.

 

[border]

Luke is also the son of the strongest Jedi that ever lived.

Which of course we did not know in A New Hope or for the first 2 hours of Empire Strikes Back.

It's almost as there might be some more movies that could possibly explain Rey's innate ability.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Furiosa is a better written character than Rey though..

Ding ding ding.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Nice try.

Who had a problem with Furiosa being a bad ass in a movie her name wasn't even in the title of?

I don't remember that but ok.

People were losing their minds over Trinity too?

Are you gonna count every "badass" female protagonist in the last few years when you have people in this very thread applying different standards to Rey than the other male protagonists?

 

[Roders5]

I think the main problem is that George himself had in his head a proper idea of what power levels of Jedi should be like and their progression, as well as rules of technology and physics in the universe that he tried to follow in the movies. Abrams and co didn't so much, and instead tried to write for a cool movie rather than something entirely consistent with Star Wars. Can they be blamed for that?

Spoiler

Yes, They should

Nope, not having it. George threw out any 'rules' when he made the prequels. All of a sudden force users where superheroes who just used ridiculous abilities when it suited them, never to use them again. Everyone was jumping around and defying gravity like idiots, it looked stupid. Then there were droids that were so far beyond what we saw in the OT. Didn't mesh at all.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Are you gonna count every "badass" female protagonist in the last few years when you have people in this very thread applying different standards to Rey than the other male protagonist?

I see people saying that Luke, the direct descendant of the most powerful Jedi didn't have a spiritual awakening all cheats were enabled from the first movie.

There are no different standards. YOU made a blanket statement. You didn't say Rey--you said women.

So I gave examples.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Furiosa is a better written character than Rey though.

Although I don't disagree, I'm also not sure you have a great gauge on why she's better written, especially since earlier in the thread you called her moment grabbing the saber a "cheap bootlegg" version of Luke in the wampa cave

Like, if you can't recognize why those two scenes and their dramatic intentions/purposes are vastly different, I don't know if you've got the firmest grip on why Furiosa is better written than Rey is

edit: Ryu this is just another variation on your "not all" line of argument from earlier. Instead of "not all posters make the same shitty arguments, some do it the way you want them too, what about them huh" it's now "not all guys have a problem with badass female women what about these fema—okay, they had a problem with that one but what about this one then!"

Like, what's the point of pursuing that? If you go hunting for exceptions you're going to find them. That doesn't stop them from being exceptions.

 

[Neophant]

I wouldn't get your hopes up for this. The fall of the Empire and the transition to the New Republic has been covered in some of the books already. They've got no real reason to go back thirty years and explore that in a two hour film. It does look like we'll get some insight into the fall of Luke's academy a few years before TFA though.

I'll have to check those out then, thanks!

I'd be happy to see some sort of change in the status quo with the New Republic having been established for some time and the First Order being either a splinter group that's running around in hiding, which would be in sharp contrast to how the Empire and the rebellion were established in the OT. Then again, the discussion of politics and planetary negotiations might give some people bad flashbacks to the prequels, lol.